Al wrote,
"Simply asserting that a fuse may be a weak link in some way is not an explanation that would be viewed as meaningful by the court of electrical engineering. Which is not to say that a ruling by that court is definitive. It is to say, however, that the proffered explanation is not definitive either, or even meaningful."
But this is not the court of electrical engineering. Unless we to believe that you are the self imposed Judge Judy of the court of electrical engineering. As to whether the explanations proffered are definitive or meaningful it depends on which explanation your referring to. If you are referring to my explanation, I submit it’s both definitive AND meaningful. As well as sufficient to explain the results. Could this go all the way to the Supreme Court?
moreover, anything in the audio system that can be improved is by definition a weak link. If there are five fuses in the system there are five weak links. Of course there are in fact many weak links in ANY audio system, not just fuses.
something’s going on and you don’t know what it is, do you Mr. Jones? By the way Mr. Jones is a pinboy and he wears suspenders.
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I nominate Jitter for resident philosopher.
They also serve who only sit and philosophize.
😀
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Gee, I was wondering when Double Blind Testing would raise it's ugly head. And lookie who raised it, the guy who doesn't understand what the word "sweet" means in audio terminology. The Wolfman. Of course everyone knows by now raising the spectre of Double Blind Tests is the last resort of the died in the wool pseudo skeptic. When all else fails casually drop the hint that Double Blind Tests would certainly win the day for the pseudo skepics. As if.
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Thanks just the same Lloydc, but I think it wise to throw your negative results out along with Wolfman and Mapman. Just like negative results with cables. They’re just outliers in the overall scheme of things and can be ignored. No offense to you personally. Hey, speaking of Mapman, whatever has become of him?
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jetter
Thank you Geoff, it is a solon's highest honor to serve.
No problem, Jitter. Thank you for the solonoscopy.
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Ya gotta love it when one troll fluffs another troll's feathers.
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nonoise
The consensus on the use of alternative fuses in audio will never be reconciled here. What I’d like to know is if anyone has replaced the fuse in their TV and did the picture/image improve. If so, then all can be laid to rest and we can move on from here.
Actually, aside from from the usual nattering nabobs of negativity the results of users of aftermarket fuses has been remarkably consistent, not only here on this thread but on every single fuse thread on this and other audio forums ever since aftermarket fuses were introduced to blushing naive audiophiles almost 20 years ago. Lead, follow or get out of the way. 😛 And now with the $9 Gold Rhodium Nano Deluxe fuse from Create Audio even cheap uber skeptics can find out what the hoopla is all about.
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OK! Here's an excellent example of what we mean when we use the expression expectation bias. The Create Audio Deluxe Fuse sells for about 9 bucks and has been very favorably reviewed by such mags as 6 Moons whereas SR Black fuse, also very reviewed, sells for what $119? So most people would automatically assume the Black fuse MUST be superior to the Black fuse, right? Expectation bias.
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For audio, at least, it’s not about electrons. Electrons have absolutely nothing to do with it. It’s about photons. Hel-loo!
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teo_audio
For audio, at least, it’s not about electrons. Electrons have absolutely nothing to do with it. It’s about photons. Hel-loo!
What, exactly, is a Photon? As you know...’good luck with that’...
Thanks for the excellent example of Newton's Third Law: For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction.
cheese
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ptss
"The absolute truths can come from anyone".
The Estonian composer Arvo Part had a 'breakthrough" moment
when one snowy morning he asked a street cleaner
"What should a composer do?"
The wise old street cleaner said simply
"Love every note"
Cheers to him-most humbly
I suspect Arvo Part probably misunderstood the street cleaner. What he actually said was, "Love every mote." Get it? Street cleaner. Mote.
😃
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Charles wrote,
Expectation bias can be overruled by actual listening experience if one approaches with an open minded attitude. Generally the better something is the more it will cost. There are without doubt exceptions to this generality especially in High End audio. Higher price and performance don’t allows go hand in hand. The Create Audio fuse could be better or equal to the SR Black for all I know.
exactly! It could be better or equal or worse. But from what you said you would *expect* it to be worse, or am I putting words in your mouth?
Charles also wrote,
Problem is who determines which is better? Same answer as always, subjective, so better remains in the ear of the beholder/individual. No upgrade fuse is going to sound better than a stock fuse to someone convinced that it isn’t a possibility in the first place. Again expectation bias.
Well, that’s pretty philosophical, on the other hand if a thing really is better sounding than Brand X most people who are not all thumbs and who can appreciate differences in sound would probably agree. Obviously there will be exceptions with just about anything.
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teo_audio
Geoffkait: For audio, at least, it’s not about electrons. Electrons have absolutely nothing to do with it. It’s about photons. Hel-loo!
Teo_audio
What, exactly, is a Photon? As you know...’good luck with that’...
Geoffkait: Thanks for the excellent example of Newton’s Third Law: For every action there’s an equal and opposite reaction.
teo_audio
Speaking of photons and regarding electricity....Interestingly enough, the liquid metal mixture in the Teo Audio cables..just happens to be.... the most wide band high quality reflector known to humanity.
As in: 1) widest chunk of the electromagnetic chart/spectrum reflected... and... 2) highest percentage of reflectivity (as in ’best’ among first surface mirrors)
Besides truly functioning at the quantum level with kinetics and fluid, hydrodynamics and magnetics. More incomplete and unsolved math, theory, and engineering potential than you can swing a billy goat at.
........................
Whoa! What?! I’m rather relieved to hear something’s truly functioning at the quantum level. I do not like hear about incomplete and unsolved math, however. That’s a little too messy. So the liquid metal is reflecting photons? Interesting....pretty sure that’s the same way Pall Mall cigarettes worked, by traveling the smoke further and making it mild.
😄
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rilbr
I tried an SR Black fuse in place of a relatively new fuse ( about 30 hours on the stock fuse).
The SR Black sounded a little better. So to me it's not because the stock fuse was degraded over years of use.
Still, I think they are way overpriced, especially if they can be mass produced with the graphine, beeswax or nano particles. I have little desire to buy more of them.
....................
Mass produced? Shirley, you jest. Just curious, was your relatively new stock fuse insert in the right direction? Was the SR Black inserted in the right direction?
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Teo_audio wrote,
"Importantly, engineering is not science. Science has only theories. Engineering has laws. Engineering is about building, so it has rules, so you don’t experiment with devices and constructions being built for the human world.
Science is about exploration and that is wholly error prone. Since it is error prone, it cannot ever suffer a law, as laws will make it circular and closed off, with no expandable future. When we get to the real exploration in science, we find there is not anything like a fact, either.
The bleeding edge of science, has, for as long as anyone can remember in this idea of organizing research and giving it a language in commonality...ie science...this science has not not one single fact. Zero.
The only ’fact’ in existence in science...is that there are no facts. A paradox. The core philosophical argument of science, right at the core of it... is the same paradox as quantum science --the wave-particle duality. Everything is theory that is subject to change."
..........
Whoa! Hey! There are no facts? There are no laws? It’s a little difficult to swallow all those statements in light of Newton’s Laws of motion, the Laws of Thermodynamics, even the simple little old equation E=mc2. The speed of light is constant in a vacuum. That is not a theory. It is not subject to change. There is a giant black hole in the center of our galaxy. That is 99.99% pure fact. Furthermore, wave particle duality is a specific idea and is not applicable to everything in science. Not everything in science is a mystery, a paradox or a theory.
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From our old friend, Wikipedia,
"The laws of science, scientific laws, or scientific principles are statements that describe or predict a range of phenomena behave as they appear to in nature.[1] The term "law" has diverse usage in many cases: approximate, accurate, broad or narrow theories, in all natural scientific disciplines (physics, chemistry, biology, geology, astronomy etc.). Scientific laws summarize and explain a large collection of facts determined by experiment, and are tested based on their ability to predict the results of future experiments. They are developed either from facts or through mathematics, and are strongly supported by empirical evidence. It is generally understood that they reflect causal relationships fundamental to reality, and are discovered rather than invented.[2]
Laws reflect scientific knowledge that experiments have repeatedly verified (and never falsified). Their accuracy does not change when new theories are worked out, but rather the scope of application, since the equation (if any) representing the law does not change. As with other scientific knowledge, they do not have absolute certainty (as mathematical theorems or identities do), and it is always possible for a law to be overturned by future observations. A law can usually be formulated as one or several statements or equations, so that it can be used to predict the outcome of an experiment, given the circumstances of the processes taking place.
Laws differ from hypotheses and postulates, which are proposed during the scientific process before and during validation by experiment and observation. These are not laws since they have not been verified to the same degree and may not be sufficiently general, although they may lead to the formulation of laws. A law is a more solidified and formal statement, distilled from repeated experiment. Laws are narrower in scope than scientific theories, which may contain one or several laws.[3] Unlike hypotheses, theories and laws may be simply referred to as scientific fact.[4] Although the nature of a scientific law is a question in philosophy and although scientific laws describe nature mathematically, scientific laws are practical conclusions reached by the scientific method; they are intended to be neither laden with ontological commitments nor statements of logical absolutes."
To put it more succinctly - it is what it is.
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Teo_audio wrote,
"Something I seemed to have forgotten since the Stereophile forum days, that I’m now being reminded of. That you are a twisty cat, who... well..who knows what."
You may not remember but I am someone who likes to stick to the facts of the case and avoid personalities. I seem to recall from the Stereophile daze you don’t. Correct me if I’m wrong.
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teo_audio
I prefer to avoid the personality part but like most... have to deal with it in recognition of what may be going on in the given case. Nor do my comments have meaning in that area, ie subtle jabs or whatnot. Which creates trouble as people sometimes think they are in the text.
Huh? That’s weird. Subtle jabs? Whoa! What do you think is going on? I mean, aside from my pointing out that electrons, which you went on and on about in your previous post, have precious little to do with the subject of audio, in particular with the audio signal. Why would I attack you personally? I don't even know you.
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wolf_garcia
Just watched an interview with Dennis Had (youtube) as I’m thinking about buying one of his Fire Bottle amps…at around 31 minutes he comments about silly tweaks…gold fuses…Inspiring? (pun)
Maybe he should consider laying off the Fire Water. One doesn't really have to look very far to find amplifier designers who are living back in the last century.
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Did someone que the Court Jester?
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You old timers can catch Garret Morris over on Two Broke Girls reruns. |
Teo_audio wrote,
"Most important take away:
you can build things with scientific laws and facts, but you can’t explore the given difficult new thing with scientific laws or facts being in control of the outcome."
no one ever said you have to control the outcome with scientific laws or facts. That's what is referred to as a Strawman. However, having said that, most or almost all observable phenomena CAN be explained by current scientific laws or facts. What might be difficult for one person to explain might be a snap for someone else.
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When the electron microscope enters the discussion it usually means it’s time to turn out the lights. That’s almost as funny as when someone took an Intelligent Chip to a metallurgy lab to examine the metal on both sides of the chip for quantum dots. Besides, if the fuse wire were very large as someone suggested the wire would not melt when required. Hel-loo!
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almarg
Geoffkait: ... most or almost all observable phenomena CAN be explained by current scientific laws or facts. What might be difficult for one person to explain might be a snap for someone else.
+1. A good audio-related example of that can be found in the current thread entitled "Most Important, Unloved Cable," in which several people reported that significant sonic improvements resulted from upgrading ethernet cables that are used in their systems. With the upgrades in most cases being very inexpensive.
A couple of posters, including one who deals with ethernet networking professionally, dismissed that as preposterous, and undoubtedly the result of expectation bias. But for someone who happens to have the right background (me), it was a snap to explain those results. And to explain them in a manner, as I put it in that thread, that is "well within the bounds of established science and engineering." See my post in that thread dated yesterday, 3-27-2017.
BTW, in saying this my intent is certainly not to toot my own horn, but simply to provide a specific audio-related example supporting your comments.
As fate would have it there are many audio related examples that do NOT support my comments, which is why I left a little wiggle room when I said, "most or almost all observable phenomena can be explained by current laws and facts." The humble fuse may actually be one of those examples judging by the demands for electron microscopes. ;-) But more to the point here a short list of audio related devices and tweaks that seem to defy "conventional" explanations, by that I mean current scientific laws or facts. Or else they are ambiguous. To whit, The Intelligent Chip, Mpingo disc, the Tice Clock, the Clever Little Clock, PWB Silver Rainbow Foil, PWB Cream Electret, CD demagnetizes, CD ionizers, PWB Red X Pen, the color purple for CD outer edge, WA Quantum Chip, Schumann Frequency generator,
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wolf_garcia
I don’t think geoffkait’s snarky and self important comments advance the charlatan’s position much at all, especially when he continues to list a pile of mostly useless pseudo tweaks as proof of the power of the unexplainable. Also, I’ve met Dennis Had who is a former and current world class designer, and a brilliant no nonsense guy who is fun to talk to and seems to know more than the average forum knucklehead could ever understand about circuits and sound. A gracious and fun dude. Also, to take an unrelated opportunity for name dropping, Judy Belushi is a friend of mine.
A gracious and and fun dude? Hmmmm....There's gotta be a logical fallacy in there somewhere. How about the Appeal to the fun dude argument? Works for me.
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I hate to be the one to bring this up again but has anyone checked the expiration date on the Roach Motels recently? Once you let them get a foothold in your house they're very difficult to get rid of.
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jitter
Is it that the wire drawing process results in crystals with edges that snag and slow the photons when the wire is inserted in the wrong direction?
Oh, there’s a snag somewhere, alright.
"Education is what’s left after you subtract everything you learnt in school."
- old audiophile axiom
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Cutting right to the chase even if Mr. Had had been a world class designer that in and of itself doesn’t mean he’s right about fuses. In fact he’s not. There are plenty of world class amplifier designers who are not on board the aftermarket fuse train. That is certainly not reason to claim there’s nothing to them. As I said that is a Strawman argument. At least one high end designer I know uses circuit breakers in lieu of fuses. Nor are there very many hot shot amplifier designers who are on board the whole wire directionality thing for that matter.
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Hypothetical question. Many folks seem to believe that the Black fuse and maybe the Beeswax fuse "bring something to the table," in other words, they are better than no fuse at all, I.e., where no fuse is required, e.g., portable CD players. Or even the case where a copper bar or magnet bypasses the stock fuse. So, the question is, has anyone given any consideration to using two Black fuses in series. if they "bring something to the table" wouldn’t two fuses be better than one? |
Since using a break-in device or break-in track will further break in an older fuse, even one that's been in the system for 10 years, wouldn’t it be fair to say playing music will never break in the fuse completely? So, one might conclude playing music for 100 hours might break in the fuse, say 80-85%. Certainly not 100%.
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Uh, oh, it looks like the stalker's back. Pretend he’s not there and maybe he’ll go away.
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There’s a saying in this hobby, that you meet the same people on the way down as you meet on the way up. Actually, they’re entirely different people and the hell with them. - paraphrase of Don Rickles roast by Bob Newhart
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Droleg, by deduction I conclude that if you’re playing music though a wire or fuse you can never get to 100%. In fact as I understand the situation even cables that have been thoroughly broken in on the inestimable Cable Cooker the cables still befit from breaking them in on the Cable Cooker or whatever again a year later, ad infinitum. Besides I implore you, what audiophile worth his salt is going to sit there patiently - without making any change to his system - for 100 hours and be able to tell when the cable or fuse has finished breaking in? Give me a break, besides an audio system when it is well tuned doesn't even sound the same from day to day, night time to day time. Too many variables. |
droleg
Geo: Broken in or not , i'm just in it to enjoy the music. To each , his own. If someon thinks that doing this or buying that hightens their pleasure or enjoyment, i believe it does, to them. It's all in our perception and expectation. Much of this is phsychological, which , by no means , lessens the validity of what they percieve. If i buy or try a tweak, i usualy believe that there's a possibility it will help.
Gosh, thanks for your insight. I'm sure we all appreciate it.
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Speaking of puppets, how about The Meat Puppets? They aren't chopped liver. |
If God did not exist man would have to invent him. |
I understand the Mercury Living Presence CDs are out of absolute polarity. Can you do me a solid and reverse speaker connections on both speakers to see if one way sounds better than the other? when the CD is in correct polarity it should sound much more dynamic and coherent with huge soundstage. thanks in advance. |
Thanks, Frank! Of course something else in the system might be out of polarity, that's why I asked to see which way sounded best. Not to mention the Mercury CDs sound great even out of polarity. 😀
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Telarc. That's another label on the out of polarity list. Along with RCA Living Stereo and Deutsches Gramaphon. Thanks for mentioning it. |
Ah, the good old days, before solid state and before compression. Before solid state microphones, before crappy orchestras. Sigh
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charles1dad
With 86 pages and 4200 + posts what more would you like to see regarding the SR or other upgrade fuses Don? Both sides of the issue have been presented ad Nauseum. Music/recording recommendations have been an intergral part of this thread for quite some time.
My apologies for asking this question, as I’m pretty sure it’s been asked already but never answered, but has anyone compared the SR Black fuse to the latest Audio Magic Beeswax fuse? Also, has anyone cryo'd his Black fuse and/or used contact enhancer on the end caps of the fuse? You know, something like new Graphene contact enhancer....
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Recall HiFi Tuning data sheets show conductivity measured 2% better for cryo’d fuses over non-cryo’d versions. In both directions. Lol Better safe than sorry. Note to self: Cryogenics is anther area that has escaped much attention by well meaning audiophiles.
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This thread is not just about fuses. it's about it's about....life.
😄
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davidpritchard
Frank and all readers:
I just received a bottle of Graphene contact enhancer from Mad Scientist Audio (New Zealand ). I am looking forward to giving it an audition.
Samsung is spending three Billion dollars on Graphene research this year!
One hopes the Samsung smartphones that exploded all over the place last year weren’t the first run of Samsung Graphene microchips and Graphene enhanced lithium batteries. After all, Samsung has been spending wads of dough on Graphene research for what, 4 years? Maybe the electron velocity exceeded the speed of light and blew up.
😛
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The best sounding Mapleshade CD is....drum roll...Sunnyland Slim Live at the DC Blues Society. I'm not hot dogging ya. |
Wolf, too funny! Whoa! Don't tell me you were serious!
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Game changer. Yeah, we get it. We also get that it's not really liquid metal.
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Ask the Doc if he offers variable valve timing.
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