Synergistic Red Fuse ...
almarg 6,669 posts 09-03-2016 1:26pm nobody can explain the technical design aspects of "special" fuses .... FWIW, I for one certainly can’t. I’ll say also that it seems to me that audio is somewhat unique in that there are countless technical variables that can be cited for which it is not readily possible to define a quantitative threshold separating what may potentially be audible in some systems from what is unquestionably insignificant. In the absence of that kind of quantitative perspective there is essentially no limit to what a perceived or claimed sonic effect can be attributed to. Or misattributed to. Best regards, -- Al We’ve been over all that. There is no mystery here, folks. It’s straight physics and metallurgy and some common sense thrown in for good measure. This is all starting to sound like the great cable debate that’s been going on for what, thirty five years. Fuses, like cables and wire, have evolved over time. In the case of aftermarket fuses it’s taken say twenty years. Like anything else, a fuse can be improved. How, you ask? We discover problems. We solve them. We learn, grow. |
Almarg wrote, "There are at least two reasons why some (including me) would find it unsettling that a persuasive technical explanation doesn’t seem to be available: 1)A persuasive technical explanation, especially one that seems to make sense when looked at in a quantitative manner, would tend to dispel doubts some may legitimately have about what could legitimately be considered to be the seemingly implausible efficacy of such a tweak. Which would add confidence that the investment of time that would be required to properly assess the tweak in the various possible applications within a system would not be wasted." 2)A good technical understanding of how a given tweak works its magic may, hopefully, enable increased predictability of whether or not that magic will be forthcoming in a specific application." Another typical trollish comment that dismisses ALL technical explanations for fuses already put forward, you know things like purer metal conductor and end caps as well as vibration control. Recall, dear readers these explanations are NOT rocket science. The use of the word "magic"by naysayers when describing tweaks, you know, like psychological, perception, placebo, bias, I.e., is just another clue that the person’s mind was made up a long time ago and that nothing can change it. This is all just another case of one troll admiring the cut of another troll’s jib. |
Marqmike wrote, "As far as knowing how something works. I don’t know how my computer works but I am glad it does. I don’t know how my flat screen tv works but dido. I grew up fixing my cars and I don’t know how todays cars work but dido. I really don’t know how electricity flows but dido. I am not sure how the black fuse does it’s voodoo but dido." I’m not sure it’s a particularly good idea for you guys to be promulgating the idea that proponents of the Black Fuse or any audiophile device don’t know much about how anything works. It gives the wrong impression and is reminiscent of my least favorite audio magazine reviewer comment, "Gosh, I have no idea how this thing works but works it does!" Cheers |
Tommylion wrote, "I had really been enjoying the CEC with the stock fuse. I was hoping for a nice improvement with the black, but am rather stunned at what I hear. I was expecting to go through the 100 hour break in period before getting a clear idea of what it does. Instead, after warming it up for an hour, the "magic" was there right from the beginning. I’m still going to do the full break in; maybe it will improve even more?" I suppose we can assume the fuse was installed in the correct direction. ;-) |
Oregonpapa wrote, "Also, is it possible that a manufacturer such as ARC could/would determine through R&D the directionallity of the wire they use internally in the equipment? In other words, would the proper direction of all of the internal wiring inside of a preamp or an amp improve the sound of the finished product?" Bingo! One can’t help wondering if ARC installs their fuses in the correct direction or uses aftermarket fuses. Obviously if the wire in fuses is directional ALL metal wire is directional. Therefore, all wire in transformers, in speakers and electronics, including capacitors, resistors, and internal wiring, is directional. Everyone and his brother has known this for at least 25 years. Hel-loo! I would also suggest the issue with the end fuse caps is simply a distraction from the real issue. LOL There are many issues for audiophiles related to fuses, including RFI/EMI and vibration. BTW the correct orientation of the wire, any wire, can be determined by listening to the first bit off the spool then marking the entire spool. It’s not rocket science. You reported, "Warren said that its a metallurgy situation and not an electrical one." I would phrase it a little differently. Because it’s a metallurgical situation it’s actually an electrical one. The electricity and the electromagnetic field (audio signal) prefer to travel down wire that is oriented in the correct direction. It measurable and audible. "No matter how much you have in the end, you would have had even more if you had started out with more." - old audiophile axiom cheers |
oregonpapa OP 1,192 posts 10-07-2016 2:11pm ^^^^ "geo ... Thanks for the input. I know ARC does not use after market fuses in their products. Its my understanding however, that the fuses they do use are oriented in the proper direction by Warren before the product is shipped to the customer. Your comment: " The electricity and the electromagnetic field (audio signal) prefer to travel down wire that is oriented in the correct direction. It measurable and audible." Okay, so does that mean that the "proper" direction of a fuse can be measured?" We’ve covered all that in earlier chapters. But seriously, we’ve discussed the HiFi Tuning data sheets and their published measurements of fuses on the fuse threads here this year ad infinitum. Fuses in proper direction, fuses in wrong direction; fuses with cryo, fuses without cryo; various HiFi Tuning fuses, various other brands of fuses. Fuses in DC circuits, fuses in AC circuits. Hel-looo! Geoff Kait machina dynamica advanced audio conceits |
Almarg wrote, "Regarding the measurements that have been published by HiFi Tuning, I provided detailed comments earlier in this and other threads. The bottom line being that they provide no information that would be useful in predicting directionality, or that is even supportive of its existence when looked at quantitatively." Al, actually that's not true. Not even close. Let me direct your attention to the conclusions provided on the HiFi Tuning Data sheets. HiFi Tuning fuse data sheets - Interpretation of results (excerpt), taken from the data sheets 1. There were measurable differences in fuse direction for all fuses measured, including HiFi Tuning, Isoclean and non audiophile off the shelf fuses. 2. Measured differences were in the range of 5%. 3. Cryogenically treated fuses gave the best results. 4. For DC applications use solder type fuse or cryo’d HiFi Tuning fuse. 5. Differences were measurable and audible. Fuses sounded better in one direction than the other. 6. Measured differences in fuses don’t explain the sonic differences (which were greater than what the measured differences would suggest). (My editorial comment) 7. Fuses with smaller dimensions gave better results than larger fuses of the same value. 8. High end fuses gave better results than ordinary off the shelf fuses. Cheers, geoff kait machina dynamica |
Al, your comments are an excellent example of the Backfire Effect. The Backfire Effect is the stubborn refusal to change ones views no matter how much evidence to the contrary piles up. The Backfire Effect is, ironically perhaps, the clinging to one’s ideas and beliefs even more strongly when confronted with contradictory views and evidence against them. Let’s see, Audioquest says all wire is directional. Most high end fuses are either marked for directionality or are reported to be directional, even when the manufacturer says they aren’t. Many high end interconnects and speaker cables are marked for directionality and have been for 25 years. High end fuses have been marked for directionality for more than 10 years. Cheers, geoff kait |
mitch2 1,296 posts 10-08-2016 2:06pm contradictory views and evidence against them... Geoffkait: "Many high end interconnects and speaker cables are marked for directionality and have been for 25 years. High end fuses have been marked for directionality for more than 10 years." To which mitch2 replied, "This is evidence of nothing other than ink on fuse covers and cable jackets....Perry Mason" Easy there, Perry. I suspect you’re confusing evidence with proof. I also imagine you are dismissing the testimony of one thousand audiophiles as mere group hysteria. |
mitch2 1,297 posts 10-08-2016 2:54pm Geoffkait: "I suspect you’re confusing evidence with proof." to which Mitch replied, "The essence of audio cable marketing 101....Mad Men" How is marking cables or fuses for direction a marketing ploy? Share, share... Geoffkait:"I also imagine you are dismissing the testimony of one thousand audiophiles as mere group hysteria." to which Mitch replied, "Don’t confuse testimony with fact." testimony is not fact or proof. Never said it was. What I did say is that it’s evidence. Hel-looo! Next up, a tutorial on the difference between proof and evidence. cheerios |
Mitch wrote, "If you pile enough technical jargon in one place you can pretty much use that as copy to sell audiophiles just about anything but, Geoff, you don’t need me to tell you that. This is not quite the most fun I have had today but it is probably about time for this thread to return to its regularly scheduled programing....it was doing so well before the negative waves crashed the party again. Why don’t you knock it off with the negative waves, Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here, Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change, - Oddball to Moriarity...Kelly's Heros" Ignorance is bliss. - Cypher...The Matrix Have a nice hair day |
Kind of funny to hear folks arguing against fuse directionality in view of the audibility of fuse direction. But not only fuse direction but also interconnect direction. And I'm referring to unshielded interconnects, you know, to eliminate the same tired argument that the directionality of cables is ONLY due to the shielding. Best wishes geoff kait |
Al wrote, "IMO. (And also, as you’ll see in the comments quoted in the post I referred to, in the opinions of four different experienced designers of well regarded audio electronics). Opinions of other audiophiles, most of whom are not electronics designers, will certainly differ in many cases." Thanks for a classic example of the warhorse logical fallacy, the Appeal to Authority. |
grannyring They work because fuses are the biggest bottleneck in the power supply. Bypass the fuse and improve the sound far more. I am not saying do it, but the point is any fuse is the weak link in the power supply. That tiny, tiny, thin wire of a fuse placed in an environment needing a more substantial gauge of wire is a certain and easily understood bottleneck. SR should also make a better fuse holder as this is yet another bottleneck. So anything that helps that tiny, thin wire act more like a 14 gauge copper wire will improve things. That is no doubt what they did as well as others. This gets us closer the mystery of the SR or any Aphile fuse. Not sure I agree with your detective work, no offense. Because all of the aftermarket fuses employ thin wires (just like the stock off the shelf fuses) - with obvious higher performance - I suspect we can rule out thinness of the internal wire as the bottleneck. I suspect the real answer has more to do with purer metals for the wire and the end caps, vibration control and RFI/EMI absorption AND last but not least wire directionality. have a nice new year |
Almarg I don’t exclude the possibility that a fuse change can make a difference, but once again the explanations that are offered in support of the existence of those differences do not withstand quantitative scrutiny. Sounds reminiscent of Juror #3 in 12 Angry Men: "You can’t PROVE it!" 😡 By the way one has to admire the way you leave a little wiggle room, you know, Justin Case later on down the road you are PROVEN incorrect. 😛 Or, as my boss at NASA was fond of saying, never get behind anyone 100%. |
Allow me to draw your attention to some of the conclusions found on the data sheets of HiFi Tuning, manufacturer of the HiFi Tuning fuses. o Aftermarket fuses gave the best results for conductivity and HiFi Tuning cryogenically treated fuses gave the best results of all fuses tested. o Aftermarket fuses almost always tested and sounded better than stock fuses. [Editor’s note: a stock fuse in the correct direction could sound better than an aftermarket fuse in the wrong direction and a stock fuse that’s been cryogenically treated could sound better than an aftermarket fuse that hasn’t been treated.] o Fuses with smaller dimensions were found to sound better than fuses of the same value with larger dimensions. o Fuses (both stock and aftermarket) from different manufacturers sounded different. We attribute that sonic difference to different materials used in the due wire and contact points and or different purity of the same material in the various fuses tested. The (obvious) differences in sonic results of various fuses of the same value could not be completely explained by the measurements, which were relatively small. o There is a measureable difference in directionality of fuses of around 5% for all types of fuses. have a nice new year geoff kait machina dynamica |
analogluvr If it's measurable can you provide the measurements please? analogluvr And almarg, I believe I can solve the mystery. It's called confirmation bias. Analgluber, thanks for asking. HiFi Tuning data sheets at, http://www.hifi-tuning.com/pdf/wlfr.eng.pdf How does one measure confirmation bias? have a nice new year |
oregonpapa OP Hey, didn’t we solve the directional thingie a while back in this thread with Warren Gehl’s input about wire extrusion? I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears a bunch of dudes on this thread, without mentioning any names, were somehow left off the distribution list for the memo regarding Warren Gehl’s input about wire extrusion. |
Al and Mitch, and atmasphere - excellent arguments by all of you. In fact, I’d go so far as to say your arguments would probably sway almost anyone, especially a newbie, who has not already heard directionality for himself. I especially like all the arguments regarding age, credentials, industry merit badges, and personal skepticism. Nice touch! 😀 Have a nice new year |
Exactly! 😀 Hah! You mean the "In fact, I’d go so far as to say your arguments would probably sway almost anyone, especially a newbie, who has not already heard directionality for himself." Bingo! Then jetter wrote, "You big bully! Even throwing in an unhappy Emoticon." Huh? Looks happy to me. Don't worry, be happy. Then jitter gets down to brass tacks, "Really though, other than in this fuse thread, directionality has not been often discussed (relatively speaking) except regarding what direction the arrows on cables that have them should be pointed." you haven’t been paying attention. It’s been discussed in many threads here. SEARCH is your friend. then jitter fires his best shot, "I wonder, again other than pertaining to this fuse thread, how many people have actually heard a directionality difference? One in 5, one in 10, one in 500, two in 100,000?" actually your numbers are correct. It’s just that they represent the number of folks that HAVEN’T HEARD or CAN’T HEAR directionality. Let’s say for the sake of argument one in 200, OK? 😀 |
ptss 1,153 posts 01-14-2017 5:59pm I like the comment by the ’gentle joker’ who has switched to Class A fuses.Not. Probably buys regular fuses from reputable,responsible companies like BUSSMAN or LITTLEFUSE. Hopefully anyone reading this thread looking for serious information realizes the Synergistic Fuse = nonsense . Schills,charatans and ’snake oil’ purveyors seem to delight,sadly, in bull shite. Your complaint might have a little more authority if you spell LITTELFUSE correctly. |
georgelofi wrote, "geoffkait Seeing it’s now fact by many having these SR mains fuses blow, that the melting point (which is the blow point) is wrongly overrated." Huh? What’s a fact? "Many" is a relative word. How many? But more importantly, what’s the percentage that blow? How could you posiibly calculate it? We also know the stock non-audiophile fuses blow, too, you know, the Buss fuses and Littelfuses. So, what’s the difference? If things were as bad as you claim how are the aftermarket fuses companies still in business? Georgelofi wrote, "It’s a wonder you and the others haven’t stated other furphy that they are Class-A fuses, therefore closer to the blow (melt) point than a standard fuses are, so they must sound better, because they run so much hotter!!" Oh, brother! Nice try, but that actually doesn’t make sense, that they sound better because they run hotter. What does their temperature have to do with the price of spinach? Why wouldn’t fuses running much hotter actually make the sound worse? georgelofi wrote, "Put that in the audio book of voodoo book along with them being directional as well." How about if I put it in the audio book of funny things people say? georgelofi wrote, "BTW if someone puts these in as their + and - DC rail fuses, and one blows before the other, you can say goodbye to that amp if not the speakers as well." If you say so. But I suspect the operative phrase in that statement is "if someone puts these in...." If I was 6'6' I could have been a basketball star. Cheers |
Many designers do not think boutique parts sound different or better. Many big names that I won’t mention here think all wire, fuses, capacitors, resistors etc... that meet spec will sound virtually the same. They are wrong. Just because they are talented designers does not mean they were or are opened minded enough to test all manner of boutique parts in their circuits and relentlessly fine tune and learn. In some cases, I won’t say all, it’s an amplifier designer’s ego that gets in the way. It’s like, I know all about circuits so my designs are perfect and don’t need any tweaks. Another concern is that the cost of incorporating various tweaks or upgrades like premium fuses and power cords and capacitors almost certainly means he'd have to compete above his weight class as it were. |
jetter tommy, no mater what side of the fence you are on, I think the reason non fusers keep coming back to this thread is the curiosity of reading about people hearing differences that knowledge experts have explained are not possible. Knowledge Expert definition - someone with a big forehead who used to be a drip under pressure. 😃 |
Yes, interesting also how similar in many respects tubes are to fuses, inasmuch as they carry the audio signal, are susceptible to vibration and magnetic fields and RFI/EMI, function better with better conductor materials I.e., internal structures and tube pins, better tube holders (sockets). In fact about the only thing tubes are missing is the inexplicable angst that fuses create in the minds of audiophiles. |
jetter Knowledge Expert definition - For my way of looking at things they are Al and Ralph - Although I probably should not inject my interpretation of their discussions, which is what I have done. So Al and Ralph, sorry if I have misinterpreted your thoughts. I hate to judge before all the facts are in but (and I’m only going by what others have said on this dodgy subject, not to mention own extensive experience and the testimony of others) can I be so bold as to suggest it’s possible you’re following the wrong sheep? |
Let me get this straight. Mapman, the Principal Troll and naysayer supreme on fuse threads, who professes he cannot hear the difference between a stock fuse and a high end fuse and who also cannot hear the difference in directionality of fuses, is being complemented on his theory why aftermarket fuses make a difference in SQ and is suddenly admired as some sort of fuse savant? Shirley, you jest. 😛 |
wolf_garcia I reported on a thorough test I did of SR fuses a while back, in which I concluded that they did nothing to enhance the sound of my well sorted system, and in fact a couple of them blew as they don’t seem to be rated properly. My conclusion was simply that they are a fraudulent and dangerous product to be utterly avoided. The fact that no reasonable explanation from the manufacturers of these things as to why they have any effect on the tonality of audio gear has never been offered is not unexpected, but has been surprisingly ignored by people claiming benefits from the use of these things. speaking for myself, I am not ignoring your results with the SR fuses. But I am dismissing them as an OUTLIER when compared to the general population that has reported positive test results. Outliers can be thrown out. |
