tzh21y wrote,
"Well, after 100 hours, they still sound very thin and not musical. I put the original fuse back in sounds better to me with the original fuse. More life. Less detail and decay though. Cannot believe it."
i was kind of hoping you would try reversing the new fuse. Alas....
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Davidpritchard wrote,
"geoffkait, I hope you will compare the fuses you presently use to a Synergistic Research Black fuse. I bet you have more experience with Audio Magic fuses than most of us. It would be less than a five dollar experiment (the cost of return shipping). Relax and enjoy the music."
i am relaxed. I'm not sure why you think I should be elected to do the experiment with the fuses. I have actually never offered an opinion one way or the other regarding the superiority of any fuse. Ironically I do not uses fuses in my current set up. You might have missed the discussion in which I divulged that I do not use fuses, I have no location anywhere in the system where a fuse can be placed even if I wanted to and I do not bypass fuses.
Cheers, Geoff
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Mitch wrote,
"Ironically I do not uses fuses in my current set up.
Yes Geoff, the irony of how much time you have spent posting to fuse threads for someone who does not use fuses is duly noted.
Maybe consider posting your system on Audiogon so readers can better understand your point of reference when you describe what you hear, or what components or accessories you believe to render a sonic difference."
Alas, in light of all that has been said in these fuse threads lo these past couple of months I would have thought it was kind of obvious that no fuse is better than any fuse. Perhaps it would help if I wrote it in all caps. That’s precisely why I have taken the steps to eliminate fuses from my system, actually to also eliminate and bypass the house AC entirely, as well as eliminate power cords, electrical ground, wall outlets, interconnects, transformers, large capacitors, crossover networks, room interactions, things of that nature. I am just not a big fan of the distortion and noise those things bring to the table.
geoff kait
machina dynamica
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Oregonpapa wrote,
"^^^ If what I am getting out of my system at this point is called "distortion," then PLEASE ... bring me more distortion. :-)"
"Everything is relative." A. Einstein
Before you changed fuses most likely you were not particularly aware of any distortion, either. It's all relative. Trust me, you still have distortion. Of many different types, if I can be so bold to add.
cheerios
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"If I reverse the fuse, do I have run in again?"
The gods are smiling. No, you don't.
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Almarg posted the following exchange,
Sgordon1 5-3-2016
Regarding fuse ROTATION... I have found "DOTS DOWN" to sound the best.... I encourage everyone to experiment with fuse rotation!
And I would encourage that before perceived sonic differences are reported as being attributable to causes that seemingly make no sense whatsoever, that steps be taken to assure that the perceived differences are being attributed to the correct variable. In this case, for example, by rotating the fuses back and forth once or twice between their original positions and the rotated positions, to verify that the perceived differences are repeatable, and that they are not due, for example, to random differences in contact between the fuse and the holder.
Regards,
-- Al
Thanks for the high humor that is so often missing in these threads. If I’m misinterpreting the nature of your response, my apologies.
G
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Moopman wrote,
"Unfortunately, I think I know the answer......"
Fortunately, you're the Moopman....
cheerios
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Mapman wrote,
"I'm calling you out again on name calling, Jipkait....
Mapman, please try to purchase a sense of humor. Besides what name do you think I called you? And you respond with a childish name calling. That's not very nice. Perhaps it would be a good idea for another time out.
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Geoffkait: " That’s precisely why I have taken the steps to eliminate fuses from my system, actually to also eliminate and bypass the house AC entirely, as well as eliminate power cords, electrical ground, wall outlets, interconnects, transformers, large capacitors, crossover networks, room interactions, things of that nature."
To which aolmrd1241 responded,
"geoff. How do you eliminate all those things short of having an acoustical band/group playing for you...in your home, at your own whim? Please enlighten us."
Let me turn the question around and ask you, how do you think I eliminate all those things? There is only one system I can think of that makes that possible.
geoff kait
machina dramatica
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"I can't believe what is happening, this is incredible! Glad I did not give up on these. Getter much better. Now bass is more powerful than with stock fuse, less glare and brightness. Omg."
Hialeah!!
PS which way is the fuse pointed, if I can be so bold?
cheers
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Tzh21y wrote,
"I had to change directions on the fuse. Still getting better. I can listen at lower levels and feel I am hearing more music. I like it"
Very glad to hear that but, what direction is the writing on the fuse going?
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tzh21y
645 posts
05-05-2016 5:45pm
Not sure I know what you mean about the direction.
Never mind. It's OK.
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tzh21y
649 posts
05-06-2016 9:12am
As far as fuse direction, if your have the sa11 s2 the s I’d on the power cord side, the r is on the transformer side if that helps.
Thanks for the info. Actually it doesn’t help me too much except it gives me the opportunity to point out a few things and try to clear the air a little bit.
1. The Synergistic Research person mentioned on another forum that his fuses should be tried both ways.
2. For some reason people have more or less assumed that the letters written on the fuse should be oriented so that when reading the letters right side up and left to right the letters should point in the direction of the signal going away from the wall toward the speakers in whatever component including the speakers themselves the fuses are located.
3. Sometimes it’s difficult to tell looking at the fuse depending on whee it’s located in the circuit of a particular component or even if the fuse is located where the power cord comes into the component which is the correct orientation for the fuse.
4. Some fuses have no writing on the on the main body of the fuse.
5. Therefore, all things considered, the owner must try the fuse both ways and determine as best he can which direction is correct. The letters on the fuse, assuming there are any, should be used only as a *guide* when switching fuse directions so as not to lose track the direction the fuse was just in. For fuses without lettering use a permanent pen of any color to mark one end of the fuse so you can keep tabs of the fuse orientation when you switch directions.
6. In the case of those aftermarket fuses that are marked with directional arrows, I.e., HiFi Tuning and Isoclean, the arrows should point in the direction toward the speakers, but in some cases as pointed out above when the direction of the signal is uncertain then you will have to try the fuse both ways.
geoff kait
machina directiona |
tzh21y
650 posts
05-06-2016 4:43pm
I just listed to it both ways and settled on the current direction.
That’s very good to hear. But, my good fellow, what direction is that? I thought better of making a joke about the "current direction." When you say you "listed to it both ways" is that some sort of Freudian slip related to UL listed fuses? |
Davidpritchard wrote,
"I have the Synergistic Research Black fuse orientated just the same as yours."
That’s the whole issue (with SR fuse directionality) in a nutshell. According to the post by the Synergistic Research guy that I quoted earlier, the letters on the SR fuse are simply to be used as a guide for remembering which direction the fuse was in just before you reverse it when auditioning the fuse for directionality. In other words, the letters on the SR fuse do NOT indicate the correct direction in and of themselves. At least that’s the way I interpret what the SR guy said. Ergo, it’s only a coincidence that your fuse is oriented just the same as his. To state this another way, SR doesn’t mark their fuses for directionality as does Isoclean and HiFi Tuning. If SR fuses were marked for directionality why would you have to try it both ways? The only reason I can think of is it's in case they marked it wrong.
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I also happen to suspect, speaking of fuse directionality, that in the particular case of HiFi Tuning fuses it’s quite possible that the symbol that is printed on the HiFi Tuning fuses which is technically not an arrow but a diode symbol is strictly for keeping tabs on the fuse direction so, like the SR fuses, it’s a way to make the fuse cosmetically non symmetrical. Thus, like the letters on the SR fuses, the diode symbol on HiFi Tuning fuses does not indicate the direction that the fuse should be inserted in the component. This method of easing the fuse direction audition process would have the additional advantage for the manufacturer since he would not have to worry about keeping track of the wire’s directionality, which of course is the whole issue - the wire.
gk
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Now, that is interesting.
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Abnerjack wrote,
"It only follows then that the bees are on diet of organic pollen. When I mentioned this to a couple of my audio-unsophisticated friends they were amazed that someone had the gall to advertise a product this way. I am embarrassed for the industry."
The industry doesn’t even know there are such things as aftermarket fuses and directionality of wire. You should be embarrassed for them.
abnerjack also wrote,
"There is quite a buzz about these fuses, although many have reported that they were stung on the purchase of these things. It’s really not a honey of a deal."
Actually one reported he was stung. The rest thought it was the bees knees.
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Almarg wrote,
"I will say with respect to the controversy of the day that I have perceived over the years a somewhat understandable tendency among many audiophiles to over-attribute (or mis-attribute) intrinsic tonal and other sonic characteristics to things that may make a difference in some cases, but for which there is no reasonable basis to expect any consistency or predictability of the resulting sonic character among different applications.
With respect to outlets, for example, it does seem conceivable that sonic consequences could result from certain factors, starting with contact integrity. But to expect those differences to affect tonality or other sonic attributes in a manner that has any particular likelihood of being applicable to components that may be completely different in design and may be performing completely different functions and may be powered by AC having very different voltages and noise characteristics, seems to me to be fundamentally irreconcilable with any reasonable understanding of how this stuff works."
Actually, reading between the legalese, I tend to agree that it’s probably inconceivable to many folks how certain things in audioland can change the tonality. Was it Arthur C. Clarke who opined that a thing or technology only needs to be just beyond the grasp of ordinary experience or knowledge to be perceived as magic? You know, like a Polaroid camera demonstration to a tribe of some lost Godforsaken island somewhere. Or perhaps like tiny little bowl resonators, or those really tiny Marigo VTS dots for capacitors and electron tubes, or WA Quantum Chips, wall outlets AND wall outlet covers, Schumann frequency generators, wire directionality, Morphic messages, purple pen, Green Pen, Red X Pen, Intelligent Chips, carbon nanotubes, beeswax, Graphene. These all seem fundamentally irreconcilable as regards tonality.
One assumes the expression "reasonable understanding" is subjective.
famous last words:
"I can find no technical explanation of how this thing works."
"I don’t have any explanation for how this thing works but work it does."
cheerios,
geoff kait
machina dramatica
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Charles1dad wrote,
"Frank I had to change the topic briefly as this show was so much fun! Besides the back and forth between pro and con camps about the fuses is redundant to the point of becoming stale. At this stage we all know where both sides stand. Thanks to you for starting this thread "many" have been able to improve the sound of their respective audio systems."
What’s beyond Thunderdome? Could fuses be the Holy Grail? The end of the line? The Sinatra qua non? One can't help wondering, what's gonna be the Next Big Thing for the fuse dudes?
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charles1dad
4,635 posts
05-19-2016 11:17am
"My point is simply what more can be said about the upgrade fuse issue that hasn’t been expressed. There are always new products or tweaks that come along. Their merits will be determined by user experience. Some may be as effective as the premium fuses and some won’t be."
Nice footwork. I was asking you, actually. Or are fuses the last stop to Xanadu? Perhaps taking a breather.
cheers |
Al wrote,
"None of this will matter under normal operating conditions, btw. The only time the fuse will "see" the line voltage, and hence the only time the voltage rating will matter, is when a fault in the unit necessitates that the fuse blows. If the voltage rating is inadequate, relative to the line voltage, the fuse may not "open" properly, and may continue to conduct current. Or, conceivably, it may explode."
If a fuse were to explode, if in fact that’s possible, who knows? Maybe you’re right, let’s hope to heck it’s not one of those Audio Magic beeswax fuses as it would be very messy and hard to clean up all the beeswax. But seriously you'd think that with all the companies selling aftermarket fuses to a large number of audiophiles, one assumes, that somewhere along the line houses would be burning down or amplifiers exploding due to uninformed impulse buying.
geoff kait
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slaw
1,130 posts
05-22-2016 2:11pm
"Can any of you explain why an item such as a fuse, which breaks the signal path, has such an impact on sound?"
For AC circuits the fuse is exposed to magnetic fields, RFI/EMI and vibration without benefit of shielding. The fuse doesn't break the signal path, it's part of the signal path.
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slaw wrote,
"Yes, I can see that.
Having said that, why don’t interconnects have a similar, instant, correlation? With interconnects, there is the obvious issues of break-in, the affect of insulation/dielectric, ... and so on.?"
Who says interconnects DON’T have a similar, instant correlation? That’s actually why we are seeing Graphene interconnects pop up, I.e., interconnects are sensitive to degree of conductivity, purity of conductor as well as RFI/EMI, magnetic fields and vibration. That's why we see such things as high purity silver conductors and seven nines purity copper. Just like fuses. That’s why some fuses use very high purity silver conductors and high purity silver end caps. Interconnects also DON’T necessarily have shielding or in some cases, not much of a dielectric/insulation, as per Anti Cables. Furthermore, I trust you are not suggesting fuses DON’T experience break in.
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slaw
1,135 posts
05-22-2016 4:00pm
"geoffkait:,
"I trust you are not suggesting fuses DON’T experience break in"
I did not say that. It’s an issue that I just don’t recall reading about.
What I read the most, regarding the "instant" effect fuses have in one’s system, is just that, it somehow (instantly) transforms the sonic signature of a given component. I NEVER read that, say, upon, hours of listening, this fuse has gradually made my component better in upon hours of listening/break-in.
This may be the difference in our opinion."
That’s a little bit of an irony since I just made the comment the other day that when someone says he could find no mention of this or that it actually means he didn’t look or didn’t look in the right places. Let me give you a for instance. If you search this forum for the term "fuse break in" you will find 417 instances. I hate to judge before all the facts are in but I strongly suspect you will find what a you’re looking for among those 417 posts. I also have a feeling that many of those posts on the subject of fuse break in can be found on this very thread.
Cheers,
geoff kait
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slaw
1,137 posts
05-22-2016 4:18pm
"The OP wrote:..."there was an immediate improvement upon installation".
This statement alone was a verification of an immediate sonic improvement, without the benefit of further listening. However, the OP did go on to say that subtle improvements followed."
This is just (one) example of the "instant" effect, I base my posts on regarding this tweak.Similar comments can be made for any wire, cable, power cord, speaker cables. That’s not inconsistent with the concept of break in. There is no reason why a fuse that is not broken in, brand new, cannot sound better than whatever fuse it replaced. Especially if the previous fuse was installed backwards. Ditto interconnects, which are also directional. I also believe you'll find comments vary considerably, so one person might call results AFTER fuse break in subtle whereas another might use the word, spectacular. Can you believe it, there are even people who don’t hear the effect of aftermarket fuses or directionality?
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slaw
1,137 posts
05-22-2016 3:23pm
"almarg:,
Your post makes more sense (to me), rather than trying to explain, in some fashion, things that cannot be explained or measured, but can be heard by listening."
Sometimes it’s probably best not to try to figure out what’s going on with these controversial tweaks and devices. It would, however, not be true that these cannot be measured or explained. It’s a question of the thick membrane of skepticism that cannot be broken. Aftermarket fuses and wire directionality has been around for almost 20 years. So, while fancy fuses might appear mysterious or bizarre they’re not exactly breaking news.
“If a black cat crosses your path, it signifies that the animal is going somewhere.” - Groucho Marx
Technology that is sufficiently advanced is intistinguishable from magic. - Arthur C. Clarke
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mapman
13,365 posts
06-03-2016 11:37am
Tbg wrote, "Mapman, Wolf_garcia, Geoffkait, thank you for your unsoliced opinions. "
To which Mapman replied, "Your welcome." (Spell checker autocorrect anomaly noted)
Who exactly solicited yours then? How much do they pay? I could use a few extra bucks."
Hey, I’ll take some of that action. My rate is $1 per solicitation. For unsolicited comments 50 cents.
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No noise wrote,
"Wolf, I agree that a lot of this is hype. Lightning strikes can have as much as 1,000,000 volts so twice that for a fuse is just what it sounds like, hype. Everything would melt no matter how it was applied. But it doesn’t negate the positive results. It’s just marketing. Popularity and demand will extract a price as well. I detest the term "supply and demand" due to misuse but here, it applies."
Uh, not sure I agree with your detective work. Maybe you’ve never seen somebody place his hand on a Van de Graaff generator that produces up to 5 million volts with very low current. The person's hair goes straight up, but nothing else happens. There is no melting. Volts are quite harmless. It’s the amps that’ll get ya.
Geoff Kait
machina dynamica
no goats no glory
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I’m pretty sure the explanation is whenever there’s a thread on some controversial product or tweak the lurking naysayers and suspicious types and superstitious types get all worked up and emote all over the place. It kind of comes with the territory doesn’t it? You wouldn’t want it any other way, either, I suspect.
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Ah, the timeless dance of enthusiasts seducing the trolls. |
There are quite a few perfectly good reasons why some people don’t get good results or the results they’re looking for with some audiophile tweaks. Now, I’m willing to list those reasons. Are you sure you want to go there? ;-) |
Mapman wrote,
"I'll stick to things I can understand and that are not shrouded in mystery and hype. I'm sure others will do the same."
Actually fuses are not shrouded in mystery and hype although I can certainly understand why you would say that. In fact, there is not much mystery at all, as I've pointed out on more than one occasion.
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mapman
13,492 posts
07-13-2016 3:49pm
Its possible the folks who hear a big improvement had some issue with their other fuses to start with. How just re-seating a fuse alone could change the sound has already been mentioned.
Actually that is not true, I mean other than there being some minuscule probability, let’s say 4%. The only other person who opined that there could be issues with the original fuses is the other troll, uh, I mean skeptic. Not to mention we already figured out we can eliminate variables like original fuses, fuse holders, placebo effect, expectation bias, the weather and anything else someone might wish to bring up by careful and thorough testing. You’re just grasping at straws. Look within yourself, Grasshopper. Stand by for the reasons why some audiophiles get lousy results with certain tweaks.
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zacho
5 posts
07-14-2016 9:54am
Anyone here tried the new Audio Magic Beeswax SHD Fuse? Currently have a SR Black Fuse installed in my DAC and am in the market for another fuse for my integrated amp. Might try the AM Beeswax SHD if there is enough positive feedback.
I had the Audio Magic Super Fuse, which evolved into the Beeswax Fuse as far as I can tell. I used the Super Fuse in my pure tube Class A Woo Audio Headphone amp. It was the bee's knees. Try it, you'll like it. |
There's a Doughnut Shoppe in NYC that displays a sign that reads, We Serve the Best Coffee in the World. Mapmann, are you trying to tell me me it's NOT the best coffee in the world? |
mapman
13,500 posts
07-14-2016 10:39am
"I was a salesman for a few years early on ( and a half decent one) but a software/systems engineer for the last 30 or so.
So I can swing both ways in that sense."
Maybe so, but you swung and missed on my Best Coffee in the World post.
Mapman opined,
"And yes there is a lot of great coffee out there and chances are no two people are likely to agree upon which is the best.
Maxwell House is pretty darn competitive I find these days with some coffees costing 10X as much, if properly brewed."
Woooosh!
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mapman
13,507 posts
07-14-2016 12:42pm
"Read up about the Challenger space shuttle disaster for a textbook example. I worked in Huntsville Al. at the time down teh road from Marshal Space Flight Center where those engines were tested. My companies Computer Aided Design software at the time was used to design the shuttle. Human error not technology led to its fate. I was still a young pup but I witnessed how all the engineers I knew were totally shattered that day."
My friend from school in the Aero dept. at UVa wound up as executive director of the Challenger disaster Investigation, the Rogers Commission. He was the one who didn’t allow Richard Feynman’s report to be included in the main report, from what I can gather, because they clashed personally and because Feyman was rather eccentric. Too eccentric for Keel, apparently.
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PT Barnum quotes
“The noblest art is that of making others happy.”
“Advertising is to a genuine article what manure is to land, - it largely increases the product.”
“The great ambition should be to excel all others engaged in the same occupation.”
“The greatest humbug of all is the man who believes—or pretends to believe—that everything and everybody are humbugs.”
Cheers,
G. Kait
M. Dynamica
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"Trolls frequently admire the cut of another troll’s jib." ~ old audiophile expression
Breezy and witty? Are you hot dogging me?
:-) |
mapman
13,516 posts
07-15-2016 5:06pm
Hmm well so far there would seem to be a definite correlation between what people actually pay for the fuse and what they hear.
Oh, I don’t know about that, flyboy. I can easily hear the difference when flipping direction of cheapo off the shelf fuses. You know, the ones that are about a dollar. When’s the last time you had your hearing checked? ;-)
There has never been a case in audio history that a died in the wool aggressive troll was ever able to hear the tweak he got so upset over. I suspect all this rancor and angst is simply a case of having totally psyched oneself out.
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"Wolf, I call BS on your story of having tried the SR Blacks--it sounds like a phony confession out of a B-rated film noir. Your tone is evasive, shifty. "I have a friend" is a contrived intro. He owns a well-regarded store, then you label it as a "salon". He had a pile of these fuses hanging around from some show or something. Sure, Wolf, sure. He gave you a half dozen "or so"... "of the things"."
Good detective work.
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mapman
13,516 posts
07-15-2016 5:06pm
"The other thing for sure is not everyone is floored by these things Is it possible the fuses they start with are as good or better? It can happen.
These are are realistic possibilities. Who’s to say what will happen case by case though?"
Only the tormented uncertain mind of the died-in-the-wool pseudo skeptic could come up with such an implausible steaming pile of compost.
The reasons why some audiophiles have difficulty hearing certain tweaks, especially controversial ones? Don't make me do it!
have a nice day.
geoff kait
machina dramatica
no goats no glory
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I use the burn in track on the XLO Test CD. Let it play on repeat for two days, one week or two weeks, the longer continuous playing the better the results. |
Almarg wrote,
"My suggestion to everyone is that when disrespectful personal attacks are posted that the offended member click the "Report This" link that appears in the lower right corner of every post when that location is pointed to, select "abusive towards another member" as the reason for the report, add any relevant comments, and click "send report."
Of course the other sure fire way of dealing with offensive or disrespectful behavior is tell your mommy.
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wolf_garcia
2,545 posts
07-27-2016 4:11am
A $125 fuse is hardly budget (about 20 times as expensive as a normal fuse like those used by pretty much every amp designer)."
Wolfman, you might be looking at this fuse thing the wrong way. It’s not that the aftermarket fuse is 20 times more expensive than a normal fuse, it’s that the $125 fuse provides more boost to sound quality than many other expenditures of $125. Perhaps more than some expenditures of $500. That's what makes aftermarket fuses cost effective.
I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears pretty much every amp designer didn’t get the memo about using better fuses. One imagines they’re the same amp designers who didn’t get the memo about wire directionality. |
mapman
13,528 posts
07-27-2016 12:00pm
Unfortunately Geoff just attacks me and clarifies nothing asked. Just more of the typical pattern of obfuscation.
I’ve explained it too you many times, grasshopper. You just refuse to listen. Either that or you cannot understand the simplest thing.
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I move for a group chant.
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Graphene is the best material for shielding RFI/EMI. http://www.nanowerk.com/spotlight/spotid=27088.phpOnly one problem. Real two dimensional single atom thickness Graphene is transparent. One assumes Graphene can be layered onto another material for ease of use. Or it could be layered one Graphene layer on another or laid onto a substrate of carbon or graphite, the former of which would somewhat reduce Graphene’s effectiveness but one imagines it would still be relatively effective. The latter is more likely since it would be easier to handle and control and attach. The strength of Graphene which is huge would also be reduced if made into a three dimensional material of layered Graphene, but still be stronger than dirt. How does one handle a material that is two dimensional, transparent and weightless? Very carefully. Graphene - the Emperor's new clothes? cheerios, Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica |
mapman
13,527 posts
07-27-2016 11:38am
The scary thing is Geffkait’s assertion that its the shielding nature of the casing used for the fuse (use of Graphene in the casing not the internal filament) that delivers results at least makes sense. The problem is it is only a theory with nothing concrete to confirm it. . Nothing I have seen in vendor literature "technobable" or elsewhere confirms this claim. Am I missing something? Geoff, how do you know this is the case? If it is, you'd think the vendor would say so.
Yes, you're missing something, grasshopper. This is just another one of your classic, "Gee Whiz, I've looking all around the Internet but I can't find anything," beauties.
Mapman also offered this,
"This is an example of what I think Wolf is talking about when questioning SR's literature."
Or maybe he's just another all thumbs Googler.
Mapman also opined,
"My views are never locked in stone. New findings can always change them."
They're not locked in stone. They're locked in Jello.
Mapman also philosophized,
"I’m glad people think they sound good, but that can be said for many things so alone is not much to go on. I guess not many things promoted on this site can be had for a mere $100 or so. I think that is a lot of the appeal. Its a cheap thing to try on the grand scale of things in these parts. Just like Machina Dynamica. Not so much anywhere else. Its like shopping the Nordstrom budget basement. You never know what great deal you might find. :^)"
Whatever. What's important is that you're glad.
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