George , Thanks for being a part of the a evolving & interactive group that will change the way we care for our valued LPS.
It is my opinion that the weak link(s) are water quality & heat. I have a 350A Hot Shot that is a finely crafted machine made in Italy. The water heating tank is made of solid brass , Michael Fremer swears bye his. However, early on I used tap water in mine that I learned is the death knell of a steamer. In time those mineral deposits from tap water just clogged it up and that was that. No cleaner I could locate made any real difference. I still have it and continue to fiddel with the Hot Shot w/o sucess. I agree with your view. But besides us who is willing to pay the retail cost for a lifetime steamer. Enjoy the evening. Charlie |
In the alternative, put on a protective glove to hold the LP, have the steamer in the the other hand. Steam clean ,then put the LP on the VPI for a scrub ,vaccum,lite steam (final rinse)& a final run on the VPI. I support Stltrains view that "just the smallest push of the trigger is needed to get positive results". |
R3w2000 : I"ll have to try that. |
Kipdent , My pleasure to assist you. |
Stltrains, I have not yet to used NERL reagent grade water,but it has been related that the actual differences between Industrial Certified Water Products vs. NERL water is not as significant as may be believed. NERL meets certian Government Standards, Peak Battery Water meets certian Industry Standards,I add at a significant reduction in price. What I'm suggesting is that either is quite acceptable with or without the potental hype , until scientifically disclamed. All the very best, Charlie |
Merlinman, about 30 years ago I purchased used records from two brothers that owned a rather extensive mail-order & brick 'an morter music business. The brothers used windex with lint free paper towels to clean every record they sold. They raved that windex was the ultimate way to clean LPS quick & cheaply. Time has passed & so have they but I still have many records I purchased from them. Last year I steam cleaned a couple, just like a night and day difference. Steam cleaning takes time & effort but has yet to be surpassed with windex & paper towels. All the best. Charlie |
Ho72,You "hit the nail on its head" ... When one includes steaming into the cleaning process lots of options open-up. A fellow streamer has opined on the effectiveness of "Spray & Wash", diluted 4 to 1 or higher that he uses to steam clean. I have not tried that yet but the bottle is in the house.
One concern is the residue issue. Broadly speaking vinyl is vinyl but in LP form all sorts of materials have been mixed to create those black orbs. Some vinyl reviewers have written that chemicals & detergents can leach the vinyl arguebly making the grove brittle. A reviewer, Michael Fremer, shaired several unsoliticed emails in which he was urged to support cleaning vinyl with a solvent that actually had the power to unglue the needle tip.
I am always weary of household cleaners being used to clean LP but I am awaire that some (maybe more) can fit the bill provided one accepts the out come could be negative. Steam Cleaning with brushes a record cleaning fluid is most effective at removing unwanted noise. All the best. Charlie |
George, I usually use Disc Doctor that I highly respect & several home brews made from internet formula's are also recommended. The secret is steam. A final steam rinse removes all residues just leaving the LP , cleaner than ever before. It is my opinion, based on my personal steaming experience, all record cleaning fluids leave a sonic fingerprint that will eventually be wisked away with steam. Disc Doctor appears to have less of a sonic fingerprint, a tribute to its designer, & therefore is less hassel to steam rinse. George , that's my opinion. Cheers, Charlie |
A tag line on the box claims that the unit only needs tap water. Don't be caught by the biz-men, use anything but tap water. For reasons related to H20, read selected parts of the thread. All the best. |
Sonofjim: I purchased a lead detection kit from The Home Depot to test power chords. The results may not be the same as yours, I now wash my hands after fiddeling with them. You should try the test yourself. Nothing to go crazy about but an eye opener.
FYI: Several years ago, I did a search of the hospitals in my area for # of persons harmed by handheld steam cleaners , there were none. I now use a instant steam unit & not a traditional water boiler, pressure in a non-issue. Cheers |
Kip & I have been communicating with Walgreens. We may have found a solution. Stop-bye in a fews days for our resolution of this challenge. Charlie |
Readers : "Sans Lead Power Cord" Hello, THAT was what I was pleading about ... As in LEAD. Again, No fuss, just wash up or glove your hand(s)...But respect your family & pets keeping all safe.
Kip: Sorry , Tomorrow I will have the information |
No Tvad, Just touch it, touch it enought & NOT wash your hands. Since I already wear gloves for safety purposes, its no trouble.
Lead is not a great issue in my house. I have no young childern at home & Cooper Da Kat does not mess with the stereo gear.
Tvad, buy a lead check kit from The Home Depot . That inexpensive tool can really assist in determining where lead can be located within the home. A eye-opener. |
Tvad , Many Thanks & Happy Steaming to you. |
Kipdent & I have been communicating off the Thread . Together, we may have resolved the lack of a "Living Solution" Steam Cleaners at the Walgreens where he resides. "Walgreens Central" has agreed to ship one to near to his home as a result of Kip's request for item # 516414. Kip will not have to pay S/H & a $10 Rebate is now in effect. Total price about $20 bucks less local tax. Should anyone face the challenge of having a Walgreens nearby but they do not carry the handheld steam cleaner, use the above # to assist the store manager to faciltate your request. That # is apparently not properly indexed by Walgreens for easy ordering. Happy Spring Break. |
Tvad, a a Record cleaning fluid designer & I spent a day discussing LP compounds. She related that she interviewed nearly two dozen gentleman in Europe that designed and/or contributed to the formulations that make LP vinyl. Over hours of discussion, I learned that H20(water) was a "secret" to the mix of vinyl. Please read "Tracking Angle" a Ez-ine by Michael Fremer; An excellent article exists there to explain the composition of vinyl . Read it. |
Readers: In a recent article , Michael Fremer , mentioned a water product he believes is suited to clean/rinse LPS.
Mr. Fremer, recommends the use of "Aquafina" , a pure botteled water product created from a seven-step process called "HydRO-7". Aquafina is botteled under authority of PepsiCo, Inc. and can be found in grocery markets in the USA & abroad. The "HydRO-7" process is said to be a state-of-the-art process removeing substances resulting in extremely pure water. For more information on the purification process visit www.aquafina.com
Personally, I'm buying a 6 pack for steam cleaning this week. Now, I can drink it while I steam it...(bad water joke). |
Kipdent advised that Walgreens has discontinued the "Living Solution" Steam Cleaner.
At Kip's request, I went to my local Walgreens buying the last one in stock to forward to him. A quick check of the contents revealed a lead-free power chord , all vinyl attachments & No Smelly-Smells. From my perspective, the "Living Solutions" Steamers are an improvement over the "Best Value For The Buck" Perfection Steam Cleaner at the identical retail price. Should you be looking for a superior back-up to whatever steamer you own, or want to start steam cleaning LPS, buy one before they are all sold. |
Tvad : As you of all readers know , water has been a topic in this thread and others.
Professionals in commerical water products & chemists amoung others have posted support to the view water puriety is important. Tvad, besides the type of hand-held steam cleaner one's choice of water supply is of concern. Michael Fremer has said he installed a OR water machine in his home for record cleaning purposes. Yes, Peak has been an option for years but times change & with the help of fellow steamer/record cleaning expert,Mr.Fremer, I passed his advice along in this thread.
You know what sounds a little silly ? Limiting options. Tvad, all the best. |
One's perspective is from where you sit.
Remember when Dope Smokers were known for eating potato chips & droping Coke(or Cola) all over their LPS in the 1960-70's. Or, did the "Chips & Coke" pass by you & the Bong ?
Perhaps that's one reason (in today's world) a First Edition Mono Beatles(Green Color Lettering $150 mint ++ & up ) or Mono Sgt. Peppers (w/ Gandi on cover $1,000 & up); LPS can be like having gold in the vault, stocks & bonds excluded.
With New LPS starting @ $30 & up , buying a scad of records in hard times is only for the affluent. Keeping that LP clean 'ment many years ago using a silicon dampened cloth. Thirty years later we know better than damn-up our lungs with smoke , or gum-up our LPS with cloths...or do we?
If you feel that purity of water is silly that's your opinion.
The object here is to pass-on/discuss State-Of-The-Art Methods to keep our precious LPS in "Perfect" condition by using SOTA cleaning methods. Its not about spending money , its about using the very best methods.
This thread is about saving LPS , something that many a Doper of the past regrets for more reasons than one.
Michael Fremer is one of a few reviewers who has made a career out of helping fellow analog'ers:I say hats off to him & his advice.
I look at issues like this keeping in mind , that from the perspective of life & death all of this is silly. For the living ... Its what we do when we are making other plans.
You be silly, I be silly ... As for me I'm returning to the sand-box ... I've got several more ideas to play with. Silly to us all ... |
Tish,tish Tvad ... Smoke ain't my thing. Dgarretson, I'm buying a tye-dyed T shirt tomorrow ... Have a great evening ... Smokey or otherwize ... Charlie |
Tiger Water ??? Instead of puffing at the keyboard go to Aquafina web site www.aquafina.com . Read a tad , then go back to fondeling lead-laced power cords & corn-cob pipes. Don't forget taking the screen out of the bathroom false-set & lite up only the pollen brushed from the flowers(smooth'e) while I try to find a 2XX T Shirt to muck up.
Cought, Cought ... Hey ! Where did all this smoke come from ?? I need that Tiger Water ASAP ... Seriously visit Aquafina you might learn somethin' ... Let's all enjoy SILLY on our journey ... Charlie
PS Aquafina is 100x cleaner than EPA regs devoid of chemicals & minerals. Nothin' to muck-up your steamer , your LPS or health.
Ok, Ok I'm done ... Anybody for lunch ? Tabs on me. |
Golly, What's happen ?? ... Have we reached a agreement (regardless of our personal views) that one's choice of water is ok ??? Go-Gamma, That's Good ... with me .... |
I believe that's what's panning out on this thread are the ebb & flow of ideas to improve the listening experience. Of course , use any water source anyone wants. But as far as this fellow is concerned I see Stltrains point of view . We have no difference other than the water product we use and hold strong views that the water source can affect what can be gleamed from that tiny grove embeded on a LP. Without wishing to offend anyone , our choice of equipment may also play a roll. But, it is un-deny-able that Steam Cleaning creates a vastly superior musical experience in the world of analog.
I do not deny that I am an extreme'ist when the subject of Audio comes up. I design my own listening rooms, redesign air bearing turntables and other designs, I manufacture my own power cords & sometimes interconnects & even tear-down exotic speakers because of my belief I can vastly improve all these products . I even redesign isolation platforms & resonance blocking boxes. My designs are sucessful. Steam Cleaning has my personal marque : I'm gratified that so many others get more joy from their record collections. Pardon my passion. Its what I do ... |
Please, please I deplore bowing , with exception of the cultures of Japan , China & S. Korea.
All I wish for is that we be contributors , persons that care about fellow AG'ers. In my opinion, there can be no shame in helping & shairing ideas.Perhaps, that is not the same elesewhere. I try to make the moment count & keep on counting.
I acknowledge I am a audio extreme'ist. Its a fact, I visited Ft. Meyers repeatly just for the chance to sit in Thomas Edison's home & in his chair, in his Lab, to read under his actual 25W tungson lights & listen to his talking machines under the same conditions as He.Believe me, it was worth the effort to be in the shadow of the Great One. Today, I own a 1903 Edision in perfect condition thanks to expert Larry Summers who restored mine. I am comitted analog'er who appreciates digital as well.
"T", keep in mind the world of analog is reading. No bowing allowed. Most respectfully ... |
No , Wax melts ... I own pre-1887 bees-wax 2 1/2 mimute cylinders. Each is well-over a century in age : The Libary Of Congress has a interest in those cylinders that I may bequith ... I own the rarest that I purchased for nothing 40 years ago. I only use Disc Doctor Fluids to preserve them. I am purchasing exact duplicateds of Edison's 1903 light bulbs so I can listen to them by tungston filment. Tungston creates the most involving light source I have ever experienced.The world is golden...Why limit your listening experience ... |
Stevieboy: We are cleaning records of debris , removing gunk that inhibts the reproduction of sound. Using water hydrates vinyl. The compounds that make LPS are proprietory, no one knows the exact formula. Positive Feedback is a great Ez-ine. But keep in mind they publish transcripts submitted with no/little vetting. Should you have misgivings -- Quit steaming. Should your ears discern the difference , whom do you trust ? Your lie'en ears or someone elese ?? |
Tvad, Do you own LPS? Do you actually Steam Clean LPS? Should the answer be no,fine, should your answer be yes than clean them & enjoy the playback experience. |
I was off to buy a sealed chamber ... Glad I missed the Jaw, Jaw ...
As for a Psychiatrist, I know one that thinks nothing of dropping gads of green on audio toys but doesn't clean his LPS. You should hear what a 10k cartridge sounds like running over yesterdays potato chips.
For those of us that read, an excellent letter was published in Positive Feedback several years back by a fellow who had lots of credentials from thr U.of FL. According to his review a the lit. neither water or alcohol can harm vinyl unless subjected to hours of chemical dousing. Steam Cleaning done correctly is a brief event that makes a significant impact on dirty LPS , not one's already affected by owner abuse of manufacturing defects. After having Steam Cleaned for years my experience has been quite positive . But, that experience makes me awaire of how many records new & used are defective. When I buy them for pennies I could care-less but when I spend $30 & up I want perfection that is rarely there.
Had I understood water purity my 350a Hot Shot would be working but that's history.
As for Tvad he chose not to answer my questions regarding him actually being a Steam Cleaner. That failure to respond makes me suspect he is a fraud to the extent he just likes to flame-out on posters. Tvad may not even own a single piece of vinyl .... I'm toast. I only want to converse with REAL vinyl lovers. I'm out of here. |
Should you fail to appreciate record steaming , thats ok. You try once , you screw up & expect instant gradification, what a group. You have a right to expect clicks & pops and I strongly recommend you spend 2K-10K for a record cleaning machine. It might help. But, who knows the results you will enjoy from the expense. Because your collection maybe fraught with prior owner abuse or manufacturing problems. Just because that dosen't go away, don't blame anyone but your self. The alternative, give your vinyl away. We thank you. I buy many "rejects" for nothing only to enjoy sonic benefits far beyond what others believed possible. As for the frauds your future is imbeded with the fact , you are just that frauds. |
Kip: Let's put this all in context. Your first sream cleaning experience was negative , mainly because you were not using that instant water boiler correctly. That one was returned to Home Depot. On the second unit I went out of my way spending my own money to assist you with the second steamer, a "Living Solution" that comes with a 2 year no hassel return policy; so why not return it?
Kip: FYI, PayPal has not yet forwarded any record of payment to me. So I maybe out the $51 bucks.
Over-All, what's of concern are your public remarks vs private comments I will outline below. Its vexing. You use the steamer once or twice , in a who knows who manner, declaring it worthless. This is the second time that has happened. Yet, in face to face "shoot-outs" with RCM's with noted designers personally on-hand, even they acknowledge the power of Steam Cleaning.
Kip, I believe the problem isn't with the steamer its either the vinyl is damaged , or the turntable is not properly set-up causing mis-tracking, an easy thing to do. Apparently, the grunge on one LP was so bad that even after steaming it took a nuge from your fingernail to dislodge it ... Now,that's real grunge.
For those that are RCM users, I have always said RCMS have a place in steam cleaning. A vacuum machine like a VPI 16.5 is excellent to pair/combo with steam.
Kip,perhaps, I misread your email noting that steaming was an improvement. Whats up? First you likey and then you don't? I have a suggestion-before making any claims steam several hundred LPS to get a feel for the vast number with manufacturing defects and prior owner abuse issues.
As I have mentioned in public & privately, near 50% of the LPS I formerly purchased were defective. I have greatly improved that take-home number by careful review using hi-rez reading glasses & angeling over-head lighting. Fifteen years ago that number was even higher, until I started to learn how to kull out the herd. And thats' about the time I started my search to find a better way to clean LPS that I now do via Steam.
Recently, I opined that several LP collections , totalling several thousands of LPS were given to me. So far, I have disposed of near 70%(to goodwill) because of defects , keeping only the creme for crem1. The only exception were those LPS from the 1950-60's so rare they are worth bucks in vg condition.
Kip, without experience how do you tell whats defective and whats not ? That's what comittment to vinyl is all about. CD's are EASY, LPS are difficult.
As for the payment problem, should PayPal not confirm your payment in a week I suspect I will never see it thru PayPal. If that is the case please put a trace on your account before sending me a personal check. I suspect that PayPal will return your payment to you ASAP being unable to find me. Not your problem theirs.
Kip, I certantly don't think that you aren't steaming , I do question your comittment to vinyl. Do yourself a favor, return to the second steamer to your local Walgreens for a refund. Kip buy CDS , your audio-life will greatly improve.You can always shed the analog front end on AG. All the best. Charlie |
Stltrains & I stand that some of the remarks posted are out-of-line. Apology or not, it shows a lack of self-respect . Following years of responding truthfully to posts, I'm learning the differences ... If you want to stop for a vist please do so, this Thread is one of the the most popular on AG.
Just don't act like a punk (Ol'English prison slang). That does no good for the health of the Thread. |
What you are hearing are the effects of the mold release coumpounds intermingled with the the vinyl formula used in the pressings.
Vinyl is more elastic than understood by many end-user. Michael Fremer's "Tracking Angle" contains a excellent article on LP composition for additional details.
The "holy-grail" of LP pressings were the early formula's used used to mix small batches of vinyl for classical recordings. Anyone/any Company that presses LPS in today's world is searching for those formulas.
The person that understands vinyl compounds is Martina Schoener , a record cleaning fluid designer who is a paid consultant to Garrard Loricraft Audio.
Martina was among several industry-insiders who observed the Steam Cleaning Process along with Terry O' Sullivan, CEO of Garrard Loricraft,as well as,a friend of Pierre Spray, CEO of Mapleshade Records : That person relayed the event to Mr. Spray who used the information as the basis for Phenophile Steam Cleaning Kit now retailed by Mapleshade Records for $150.00.
According to Martina, she interviewed many of the retired workers responsible for mixing the compounds. Many were interviewed very late in life and most are now deceased. Martina discovered the formulas were tightly held company secrets. She told me they were rarely committed to paper but instead were orally handed down to others in the trades. The European Trade tradition is different from ours and began to break down in the middle 1950's for ecomomic reasons.
Today, no one is really certian what the most exacting formula is comprised of and many chemists are making a good living attempting to reconstruct the "grail".
Steam Cleaning provides a way to remove any leaching compound(s). In my first published article/letter to "Listener" I noted the observation that all record cleaning fluids (known to me) leave a veil, I termed a "sonic-fingerprint". The sonic-fingerprint is the artifact/residue of the cleaning process & is present regardless if the fluid is homemade to Mega Buck. The final step to steaming is a steam rinse to remove all residues .
Stltrain advocates nerl water rinses. I also recommend using a pure water source ; Peak Battery Water ($3.00 a Gal.) ,however; Michael Fremer has mentioned that Aquafina is a extremely pure water source. No vacuum RCM has proven it can remove a sonic fingerprint. That is a fact. Steam has proven to be extremely effective in removing sonic-fingerprints. I believe that rinses may produce and even better finish to the Steaming process.
The above is a short-discourse on why Steam is an effective cleaning agent to vinyl LPS. Steam Cleaning is a process that needs to be followed step by step to get a satisfactory result. Rome was not built in a day & neither can one understand the results of Steam Cleaning without having done so for an extended period of time.
Record Cleaning is as much an Art as a Process , all learned and matured by time, much in the same manner as learning to set up a analog front end. |
I know Audio Intelligent products & have spoken to the owner several times. Audio Intelligence products are respected by audio reviewers & many of my audio friends for good reason - They work to reduce many disavantages of record cleaning.
Nevertheless, it is my view (supported by actual listening experiments) that all record cleaning fluids leave a sonic fingerprint (some more/some less ) that is only appreciated following steam rinses or water baths. Keep in context that every Institution in the Western World that stores recorded music for future generations supports water rinses.
It is my view that steam rinses do the job faster , not that rinses don't provide a potentally smoother finish to the cleaning process. Its a matter of time & I am persuaded that time may be worth the effort.
A secondary issue is system transparency. The more you have, the greater the available detail. Unfortunately, many well intended analog front ends have issues either the as result of set-up ,or limits to transparency via system matching.
There are several excellent books on the matter. George Merrills "Turntable Set-Up" & Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound" are resources we all should own & use. Many other excellent articles exist on "Tracking Angle" and in back issues of "TAS" , "Stereophile" & "Audio".
I am of the view that what you hear is a mix of compromises, some good & some not so good. Without an extensive self-education & subsequent re-education , evaluation and regular re-evatuation, system issues will filter into the listening experience.
Nothing could be more true than that in the world of analog. Changes in the weather cause a need to tweek one's turntable & tonearm. Not apprecating those changes can result in slight smearing of mid-range. Phono cartridge suspension's change/age over time, some very quickly. All of these challenges confront a LP listener.
If you can't hear certian differences from steaming , so many varables exist that its sometimes a challenge to discern. Re-read the inital reviews of RCMS vs buyer complaints . Its not that RCMS did a poor job , but LPS with a history of 6 , 12 to 20'ish gram tracking weights were impossible to rehab they were so gouged out. Only the inital RCM user did not appreciate that fact. The Record Cleaning Magnets spent years educating the public via the print media at great expense.
Its my view that we are repeating history to a degree. As we move forward with new innovative ideas , new challenges crop-up. In a world of "Make-It-Happen-Yesterday" analog is at a distinct disadvantage to digital. No matter what limitations of CDS, they are easy to use & require almost no maintance. LPS are difficult to extract that SOTA sound but when you do , by effort or chance, now that's an experience.
The end-user will never get to the "Land of Qz" because it does not exist. With persistence you may see the turrents. |
Thank you, the handslap reference to publishing is a worthly consideration. |
Kipdent: Thank you for forwarding the full cost to purchase & mail the Living Solution Steamer. All the best. |
In my view, tonearms such as the Schroder Reference ($7,500 & up) need to be re-tuned in response to weather changes. I am a fan of Frank's work & consider his tonearms works of Art. With a Schroder , weather changes scream-out to you. After you understand that one can use that as a reference point for many other Tonearms. In my view, the reason so many perfectly splended Tonearms appear on AG has to do with adjustment issues , mal-adjustments with phono cartridges having nothing to do with performace.For instance, Maplenoll Tonearms are air bearing as is the platter. Barometric changes change the alignment of the cartridge & height of the platter. Slight alignment problems "blurr" the delicate sound of a performace. Ms. Lumley was way ahead of her time, (see TAS 1983 & up). The information I outline is far-less available in a hard-rock LP but quite discernable in classical performaces. Z: If you want,God, find religion not 2 channel stereo . Set-up is everything. As for bats they use sonic vibes , our hearing is different. I do enjoy watching them against a Maryland Sky near dusk. I reside next to a Wildlife Sanctuary. Thank you for Honoring Bats. |
One quick follow-up. I have noted seasonal adjustment issues with SME , Rega , All "S" arms & Grace. In my view all tonearms are subject to adjustment issues that affect tonality, midrange-smearing and mis-tracking.
The analogy would be air pressure to car tires. All car tires require perodic checks to determine correct air pressure. Subtal changes can not be seen with the eye. A air gauge is used to balance out the air reading for each tire. Wally Kits and other set-up adjustment tools are required to assure the tonearm is operating at the manufactures recommendations. The changes can range all over the spectrum , re-adjustment is required to return the tonearm to optimal operating conditions. Without such adjustments you are flying by the "seat-of-your pants" in analog.
When one steams a record , the recording silghtly swells someting measurable in a Lab setting. It is for that reason I always recommend a "rest" period prior to playback for the LP to re-sizes itself. The same is true when one plays a LP. The phono stylas heats the vinyl for a thousandths of a second ever-so-slightly distorting the grove that needs to re-size itself in about 1/2hr. It is for that reason a quick replay of a LP side may sound "smoother" when actually its slightly smearing/blurring delicate details the second time around. The variables in playback are such that even record cleaning using a RCM w/ cleaning fluids may sound "smooth" on a newly cleaned LP when what one is actually hearing is residue of the fluid deep in the grove acting as a filter to the needle as it glides over the grove.
It is for that reason some analog'ers perfer "wet playback" that smoothes the sound at the cost of detail.
When one over-lays all of these observations its not difficult to recognize why in analog playback is so challenging ... To view the "Turrents of OZ" not just the bricks on the road... Bats 'an all. |
Readers: In my part of the US, "Aqunafina" is on sale. 24 bottles equaly'ing near 3.16 Gal of pure water is being sold for $3.99 in discount houses & $4.99 in SuperMarkets. "AQ" is reportly near 99% as pure a Nerl water that reportly costs about $80-$100 per 5 Gal inc. shipping as opposed to the price of "AQ" in your area. Just a mention. |
Nickiguy's analysis is spot on. My view for the widely varying results stem from variables such as how the work is performed , the cleaning machines (included or excluded), the use of a record cleaning fluid vs water , as well as, what type of water from Tap to NERL. And I agree that steaming is time consuming. Thankfully, one does not steam with every playback.
As for record cleaning fluids, it is my view Audio Intelligence Products and Disc Doctor are examples of superior products available to the consumer. Of course, homebrew is certianly available but only if you know what your doing. Smearing home made goop is no more a benefit than rubbing sand on the groves.
In my view, AI & DD fluids do very well is to "lift" the gunk & dispence some in the air & dilute the contaminates. They dislodge some of the sonic fingerprint. In my opinion the only way to remove the sonic finger print is thru Steaming or pure water baths , most likely both. Now, that is time consuming.
And lastly an explaniation for the widely varring results ? Some , a few, ain't Steaming tat' all. Their questions or responses do not reflect hands-on experience. They , for-what-ever-reason(s) , comment on what they, in my view, do not know. |
Thread : Well Tempered Amadues's Use of a Golf Ball.
Actual Posted Comment:
"Such arrogance,such idotic babble. How can you comment on something you haven't experienced ?"
Posted by Chashas1, dated 2/17/09, Post # 53 ... |
Chashas1 : SOTA> State Of The Art. I have been granted Research Credentials at the Libary of Congress. I know a few folks there that preserve early recordings & photographs. I personally own early wax cylinders & photographs.
I don't feel the need to support the statements on water beyond what I wrote. My remarks are confined to vinyl not wax or other compounds and are amply supported by doctumention.
I'm not a chider & don't pontificate(in my view). I'm guilty of attempting to reform the paradigm with regard to record cleaning. Its worth the effort...Good luck to you. |
Chashas1: You appear a brite , brittle person who can't keep their hands from touching the flames. Your comments have nothing to do with steaming . That is troubling . Envey in my religious tradition is an evil that we as believers must refrain from. You show a strain of thinking that doesn't truly appreciate your intelligence, a sign of youth w/o restraint. I respect your acute perception(s) & for that reason only I will answer your final question.
I enjoy re-designing Maplenoll Turntables & Tonearms. I design the air delivery systems & use my of my own air scrubers design but, alternatively, Schroder arms & AC Raven Turntables are available to me that I enjoy & experiment with often with other fanatics. I own several other tables but that is of no importance. I have learned how to tune analog set-ups as well as anyone. That's the difference. I depend on no particular dealer or manufacturer , unless they offer. And you, Noble Black Knight from where do your ideas dwell ?? How can you imagine melting LPS on a thread that has grarnered more views than almost every thread posted? Where does that logic come from?? Personally , enjoyed the OZ, brick , turrent & bats better. |
Johnbrown : You claim to have no part of the dogfight but here you are. Who are you ? A chemist ? A doctor? Maybe someone in the audio biz? Your views are so ironclad. I find it so amazing that folks (like your self) will incriminate a process designed to enhanse the listening experience ,yet, spend thousands of thousands of hard earned dollars to be in analog without a wimper. Instead of directing fiefs do some homework. If you have not deciated time & effort to mastering steam cleaning how can you be so over-reaching? I should never be surprized at human nature. Galileo was in his time imprisoned , his family disgraced , his daughter forced to become a Nun , just because his scientific studies(using a self-designed telescope) concluded the Sun was at the centre of the "universe" not the Earth.
I have a feeling your near 60 years old. Something happens to grey-beards , they go white. No shades of grey , just white.
The whole discussion on Aqunafina was centered on finding a cheap reasonable alternative water source that is reasonablely clean, according to EPA standards. According to the Aqunafina web site they make some interresting statements.Johnbrown the object of this thread is to forward Steam Cleaning , not debate its merits with non-users. I'm done. Have a good evening. |
Z: Sending personal email had nothing to do with it. I previously made mention of the matter so I wanted to assure regular readers that Kipdent did all possible to honor repayment. Thank you , Kip.
As for the JB's sniping on water matters here are the facts, Nerl Water: The cost for a 1/2 Gal.of Casco-Nerl Water , Reagent Grade I , is $55.00 USD or $112.00 USD for 1 Gal. v.s. 3.16 Gal. of Aqunafina for $4.00 to $5.00 USD. Published specifications for Casco-Nerl Water as to;boiling point,specific gravity,flash point,vapor pressure,vapor density ,solubility & evaporation rate; all were found to be "essentially like water" or "same as water" per the standards published in CFR. Title 29, sec.1900-1200. The only differences I noted in specific resistance @ 0.2 micron for Nerl v.s. 2.0 micron for Aqunafina. Aqunafina standards are 500x lower than the EPA standard for drinking water from springs. As for soluable materals both Water's report to be near zero or zero in all published & measurable parameters . I consulted with the Supervisor for McCormick Spice Industries on the subject of water purity. He states it is common practice in Industry to maintain water purety at or to lower #'s than reagent grade as to keep flavors at certian consistent levels when used as a spray to coat corn or potato chips as for two of hundreds of examples in food. I consulted with a Supervising Nurse at a Pa.Kidney Dialysis Centre who said Reagent Grade water is used in the process because purity is warrented against lawsuit. Ok, so what's the difference between Nerl & Aqunafina waters ? So far,certification is done constantly to Federal guidelines for Nerl & packaging to medical standards.
I have requested further clarification from Aqunafina to explain what differences do exist and if my assertion of 99% is correct or near correct.
Z: I have posted this many times, I rarely (if ever) find a reason to steam clean beyond the initial steam . I agree that changing the inner-seleve & sealing the LP in a poly bag is essential to keeping a record as clean as possible. I formerly used a Hunt Brush but currently use a Destatic Brush found in Audio Catalogs for $30.00.
I am also considering a whole house duct cleaning & electro-dust filtering system to reduce home contamination.
But, so far I have never found a demand to give a LP a second steam cleaning. I will not rule out a steam rinse but have yet to do so. My viewpoint differs from some industery types that feel Steam Cleaning will never be profitable to promote unless conducted 3 to 4 times per year per LP. I think that is unfounded.
As to ho72: U so Funny ... Why build a vaccum system when one only needs to house a "Little Green Machine" , a complete system easily adapted to being the heart of a RCM for $25'ish used on Ebay. Hee, hee easy money to all. |
Johnbrown: I do respect the fact you do a tad of homework. You must agree that according to the tests results ,available for public viewing ,the waters are closely aligned. Most respectfully, you are also fail to respect another important fact ; many , many LP owners are Steam Cleaning with excellent results .
What you bring to the table, is your prevailing view not to steam clean. Ok, I got it. But we are "Steam Cleaning 2". As for sharks in small ponds, what are you thinking? This whole word world started for me in 2000 when I responded to a issue of "listener" that detailed the cleaning preferences of 14 known Audio Reviewers here & across the pond. 13 used vaccum RCMS & one did nothing but blow breath upon the record surface. This was the first time anyone detailed (in print) "Steam Cleaning" & nothing has been the same. The phone started ringing & invites to speak at Audio Groups & Audio Manufactures hasn't diminished.
JB, I've learned a lot. I saw what I called "my gift" to analog'ers turn into a business for some , igniting discussions on sonic fingerprints that led to reformulations of many products. Am I an insider , no way! But, I do sit at the table at times with dozens of audio designers & receive emails from around the world on the Steam Cleaning topic . I have been published in the Audio print world several times & I even got a "thumbs-Up" in the "2003 Recommendations issue of Stereophile". Not bad for having ideas. JB, I'm out to inform , to change to paradigm in regard to Steam Cleaning , simply , because Steam Cleaning works. (Z: I know how much you can't stand self promotion , don't write , I'll do it anyway.)
As for the news article, it is my understanding the reporter failed to follow-up that the water was not the issue. As for micro-contamination, even Reagent Grade water makers make no claim beyond manufacture & shipping that the product is Reagent Grade 1. As for your assertion that reagent water is certified , spot-on. Aqunafina is tested daily but my understanding It is not certified daily. I did re-review the web site ; I apparently did not fully read the shipping description,$112.00 is for 4 gallons. But,that does not change the fact that the waters appear closely related in purity but a wide gap appears in price.As for the water sources & filtering processes, you are misinformed, they are closely aligned. As for who I spoke to in regard to water issues, spice makers consume huge quanities of pure water and must comform to Government inspection & policy . JB, should you take 8-10 hours to read both SC threads you will find references to several interviews I have conducted & the Water Thread that we both recommend. I respect the fact you are willing to pay $11.00 per Gal. for water. Respect our right to determine if that is the only alternative.
One recommendation, don't be so cheeky . Spend a few bucks get your self a Handheld Household Steam Cleaner & SC your LPS using Reagent Grade 1 to Steam & Rinse. You just might become a Steamer! Cheers! Go in good health & peace. |
You are not looking in the right places. The 3/2003 Recommended issue contains a thumb photo of a steamer in the border . I recommended that steamer to Mr. Fremer who months earlier published an article recommending the process to readers for dirty LPS. That article was a result of his interest in my comments in "Listener". We discussed the merits of steam via email for months prior to publishing. The thumb was discrete but nonetheless support to the cleaning method recommended earlier to readers. Later, in 2006 he included my views in his 2 part article on record cleaning. All the articles are copyrighted & can not be posted without permission that Stereophile grants that for a fee I feel no need to pay. What do you care ? You don't give a tinkers damn(ol'english) about steam cleaning. Do you. |
You know what I learned today? I have friends , true friends who can not wait to read my crem's. You warm the cock'els of mein heart. Really you do. Chashas none , err Has 1 , you be such a crem'er & that goes for Zen .. Master B ... No , No Zenblaster, yes zenbleater, yes, yes my friend(s). Only today I got a call from over-yonder. Its been proposed we have a "Zen & 1" party early next year following the CES, extracting all the friendly zappers you write to be read aloud by my other friends in the industry. You guys have a following ... My how goood you make me feel. But I confess to one little problem , naughty, naughty me. I do make mistake in giving you the details ... err business ... Please, Please read "Listener", Hi-Fi & Music Review Jan/Feb 2002, P 10 , "And It Makes A Fine Gift" : My response to the LP-Cleaning Essays & my "challenge" to the Audio writers . Thereafter, Michael Fremers 2003 article on the Handheld Hotshot 350A , a picture of which was printed as a"thumb" in "Stereophiles" 4/3/03 or (04) ," Recommended Components 2003" about 3 to 6 pages in to the components section, on R.H.S. Now chashasn'tany ,please read the issue & tell your readers what is printed under the thumb ... Or perhaps Zen has the issue & can do the job. Remember, don't be lazy find the exact issue read it & report back. But ,FRIENDS, who could forget??? "Stereophile" Jan/2006 , "All quiet on the Vinyl Front, Part 2,P37 !!... Sorry, I get sooo excited knowing your eyes are glued to the screen ... Ha Ha , just a good natured Got YA ? ,no,no but I got you. Hee, Hee. Now don't it make you feel good you have so many Euro-Readers in stiches ??? Cheers! |
Is it wrong to post ideas, ideas given w/o renumeration, that actually work? The goal was to engage normal people that had vinyl that I viewed as a flawed "pop & click" medium in need of help to surive the digital explosion.
I didn't invent steam , I didn't invent RCMS, I didn't invent Handheld Steamers or record cleaning fluids. But , I did experiment & share the results. The reason ? So others could derive joy from analog collections as I had from mine. What did I gain in return ? A street mugging by internet criminals here. What is AG for ? To grant persons who have no investment in ideas to invade a Thread , shout-out reason with vile personal attacks ? With all due respect, if internet terrorists are granted control what is to happen to AG & the rest of us the Audio Community that respect this Web Site.
I have been reading a lot of their comments sprinkeled around AG, almost none forward intellectual discourse. Should this be an inkling of the future of this Web Site , AG should shut-down . Or, defend the rights of free people to discuss ideas without fear of the storm trooper idea-burners, street gang mentality that is hijacking our community. |
Lets cut to the chase. Mapleshade Audio & I are in complete agreement in regard to Steam Cleaning. Pepsi & I have had detailed discussions & they have committed the Company to an inquery in regards to Aqunafina Water. Mapleshade has made a generious offer outlined in Mapleshades Spring 09 Handbook (PP63-64) to allow buyers of their steam cleaning product outlined on those pages to try steam cleaning for 30 days. The offer stands on its own merits and can be read in the handbook or on line @ www.mapleshaderecords.com. The deal is simple try their product & should you meet the requirements posted and are dissatisified they will return your money.
Both Mapleshade & Pepsi take there products seriously . Mapleshade defends Steam Cleaning , Pepsi Aqunafina Water. They have the resources to support the respective products. Are you willing to come forward & try Steam Cleaning ? Its no longer about "Crem1", its about if you will meet the challenge. Well, do you ?? |
