Shootout of Nos 6sn7 tubes

If you want to experience 1578 tube, then I recommend this dealer who sent the tube very fast.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-pair-Extremely-rare-1578-6N8S-audiophile-6H8S-6SN7-Metal-base/273874731266


It give some hum and noise at the start but with burning in for 20 hours,  those noise had been almost gone.

@ testpilot

Two pairs of 1578 sounds clean without noise or hum and one pair give some high frequency noise before full 20 minutes warmup.

Thus I am happy with my three pairs of 1578 made in 1980 and 1983.

I agree with you that TS bgrp is overhyped.

One can get pair of Sylvania vt231 which sound close to TS bgrp around 150$.


But 1578 is not for everyone.

Its balance is bass heavy and closed in at treble compared with Syl vt231.

@mid40sguy 


Congratulation on getting 1578 tube.

Yesterday i had been back and forth between 1578 and TS bgrp.

Although, TS bgrp giive very sharp details, I prefer 1578 to it due to much better dynamics and wider soundstage.

But it will depend on system and personal taste.

After you get 1578, please leave your impression of it.

Thomas

@zipost


I do not think TS bgrp is bad tube.

But Sylvania vt231 also give spooky details and transparent window as well as TS bgrp but at one third cost.

Law of diminishing return apply heavily in audio.

I have pair of Telefuken 12AX7 tubes whose lively and nuanced details I enjoy.

Thus I could understand why you like Telfuken 6sn7 so much.


For most of people, they do not need to go for TS bgrp to get nice lady vocal sound.

They can be happy with Sylvaniia vt231 which I had been happy for 2 years in LM 508 amp.

I am listening to Beethoven Piano concerto using 1578.

Piano sound so natural through 1578 that my judgement on 1578 as "Holy grail of 6sn7" could be justified.

But choice of tube is dependent on system and personal taste.

Thus I understand that other people may have different opinion.

Thomas

Since I could not correct mis spelled words, I re posted.


  Third Shootout



1. National Union Black glass.



It was heard that National union did not make tube themselves but rebranded other tubes.



NU bg looks similar to either Kenrad bg or Tungsol bg.



its sounds similar to KR bg but with slightly less slam but slightly more treble extension.



i paid 120$ for this tube, It is not excellent value but worth its price overall.





2. Russian 6n8s metal base Melz made in 53



Most people talk about 1578 Melz.



But this one sounds nice with excellent bass, nice details, wide and deep soundstage.



Overall this give best performance for the cost (65$ per pair compared with 250$ per pair of 1578).



1578 sounds slightly more refined and dynamic while 6n8s made in 53 give slightly more detailed.



I had ordered four more pairs.





3. Amperex GTB



I had enjoyed Amperex 12Au7 tubes with neutral and round midrange.



Amperex may have house sound.



This Amperex gtb tube also sound round and refined midrange similar to RCA gray bottle.



It is a nice tube with Jazz.





4. CBS hytron gtb



This one sound lively with decent details and dynamics.



But compared with excellent vt231’s this tube is one notch below in details and refinement.



I would rather buy vt231’s or Russian tubes than this.





5. RCA clear bottle made in 56



I paid only 22$ for pair of this.



But it was very good value for the cost.



Sometimes you can get a hit from Ebay dealer.



It sounds similar to RCA gray bottle but with more transparency.



6. Russian 6n8s black base made in 78



I paid 46$ for quad.



But it was excellent with nice bass, details, dynamics, wide and deep soundstage.



It lacks refinement compared with 1578.



I like this tube overall.





Now I had gone through 16 different tubes.



My conclusion is all the Russian tubes give excellent bass, dynamics, wide and deep soundstage.



The best tube to me is 1578 Melz made in 1980 with explosive dynamics, widest and deepest soundstage,clean details.



TS bgrp has excellent transparency, details and speed but falls short of 1578 in dynamics and soundstage widtth.



TS bgrp sounds close to Sylvania vt 231 but more than three times of price.







My favorite is 1578 Melz, 6n8s metal base, Sylvania vt231, Kenrad vt 231, Raytheon Vt231.



RCA vt231 is also good with round and rush sound.



Pair of 6n8s metal base made in 50’s can be had under 100$ from Ebay, thus they are best value.








DetailsTransparenSpeedTonalityTreble ExTreble ClMi DynMac DynS. DepthS. widthNet costTotal Sc
TS bgrp9.59.51099.510989.5957593
RCA vt231998.59.59.598.598.5108990.5
KR vt231999108.59910998391.5
RT vt231999998.599.5996590
Syl vt10109.5810109.57.59910092.5
Bad boy87.58.597.58.58.598.5921584
15788.58.59989.59.510.51010.525094
S 181z88.5898.598.5898.512085
RCA gr87.5897.588.59.591010584.5
Syl Tall8.588.58888988.510882.5
Syl Wgt999998.5988.58.54587.5
Ts tall9998.5998.58.58.58.55487.5
Amperex8.588.59.58.598.59997688
Rca56999998.58.58892287
Cbshy989.58.5988.598.58.56586.5
6n8s(78)8.598.598.58.59999.52388.5
6n8s(53)99999.5991099.56592
NU bg9999.59998.58.5912089.5

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/shootout-of-nos-6sn7-tubes.932083/page-2

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Raytheon-JAN-CRP-6SN7GT-VT-231-Vacuum-Tubes-1944-Balanced-Matched-on-Hickok/392787627010?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I am listening to Jazz music including " I left my heart in San Francisco" through Raytheon vt231 that cost me 65$ from Ebay auction.

I had lived in Berkeley hill overlooking Golden Gate bridge from 1984 to 1987.

This tube does not sound pure as Syl,TS, RCA vt231 with some lively edge.

But Jazz music sound more realistic through this Raytheon tube.

It is really fun to go through nice 6sn7 tubes.

Although 1578 give nice bass and soundstage, but it sound boring with Jazz vocal music due to closed in treble.

@lowrider57

It is good to hear that you enjoy 1578 tube that I had recommend to you.

You also had gone through many 6n7 tubes.

1578 has the best bass, widest and deepest soundstage and sweet treble.

The only drawback of 1578 is that when I play lady vocal, I prefer Sylvania or TS vt231 due to more details

@lowrider57 

i understand what you mean by mixing tubes.

Schitt Freya also use quad 6sn7 tubes, two for gain, two for buffer.

Kenrad  vt231 at gain and Syl vt231 at buffer work best for me.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-MELZ-6N8S-6SN7-Metal-Base-Tubes/264601117458?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


I got delivery of this 68ns Melz tube made in 1953 about 2 hours ago.

It took six weeks of wait from Ukraine.

But it is worth the wait.

This is the most exciting 6sn7 tube that I had tried in my Line Magnetic 508 amp.

it sounds very dynamic with excellent details, wide and deep soundstage.

Compared with famed 1578 Melz ( I have two pairs made in 80 and one pair made in 83), 1578 give slightly more bass slam, even wider and deeper soundstage.

While 1578 has clean treble, it sound rather closed in and bass heavy, but this 68ns Melz tube made in 1953 give more lively treble and details although its treble has slightly hard edge compared with 1578.

I am playing old rock. It seems that they are playing in front of me.

This is a steal at 65$ including shipping for pair which cost one quarter of 1578.

I place an order of two more pairs of this.

Thomas

It is going to be interesting if I can compare this 6n8s tube with Sylvania wgt metal base.

I have Sylvania wgt brown base which sounds similar to this 6n8s but 6sn8s give more dynamic sound.

But it is not easy to get Sylvania wgt metal base at reasonable price under 300$ per pair.

@lowrider57 

I am quite impressed with 6n8s made in 53 with sparkle and air in addition to great bass.

Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen sounds so real through this tube.

I recommend you to get 6n8s metal base made in 1950 which cost less than 100$  per pair.

After 10 hours of listening to 6n8s made in 53, I am more impressed with it.

It sounds dynamic with nice air and details.

I am listening to "Hero" by Mariah Carey.

It sounds so delicious and nuanced through this tube that I am just happy.

It is kind of midway between 1578 and TS bgrp.

All Russian tubes that I had tried have better bass than even Kenrad vt231 which used to be called bass king of 6sn7.


The only drawback of this tube is it has some high frequency noise as well as 1578.

Some people had claimed to cure this through re soldering pins.

I had to try that someday.

I keep hearing noise from 1578 made in 83 but not from two tubes made in  80.


68ns sounds lively but with some noise on an off.

After burning in, the noise may go off. Let us see.

@big_greg


I do not hear noise from the tube bought from Ebay dealer after playing it for 20 hours.

I recommend you to play it more and see what happens.

Some people claimed to have had cured the problem with re soldering pins.

They said most Russian tubes have problem with noise.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/page-120#post-15647922


But I am going to see what happens with more break in.


I like Russian tubes with excellent bass and nice value but some of them may need re soldering.

@big-greg

After playing 20 more hours, if you keep hearing noise, you can contact dealer about it.

Another choice is to do re soldering pins.

Some people in Headfi is of the opinion that it is better to do re soldering on Russian tubes.

I will also consider my options whether I will try to do re soldering myself or send my tubes to who can do better job than I.

I had gone through most of famous 6n7 except Telefuken and Sylvania wgt metal base ( I have Syl wgt brown base).

Now I am getting ideas of the pros and cons of each tube.

No tube is perfect.

1578 has rather closed in treble although its treble is pure and clean.

TS has no bass slam compared with Kenrad vr231 and Russian tubes.

So far my overall favorite is 6n8s made in 1953.

I do not claim that 6n8s sound better than 1578 or TS bgrp.


This 6n8s made in 53 goes midway between 1578 and TS.

Thus I enjoy this tube more than either 1578 or TS.


I placed just one more of 6sn7 tube.

Strong Matched Pair National Union 6SN7GT Black Glass Tubes Same 1951 Date
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Strong-Matched-Pair-National-Union-6SN7GT-Black-Glass-Tubes-Same-1951-Date/164063553459?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

It could be rebranded TS bgrp or maybe not.  

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/

This will be my last order of 6sn7 (now I have around 100 6sn7 tubes).

I expect to get this tube this coming Friday.

I will finish shootout of 6sn7  tubes by this weekend.

@luisma31


It is good to hear good experience about Delax.

I ordered two more pair of 6n8s tubes from him.

https://www.amazon.com/Center-Stage-Lowell-Graham/dp/B0001XGOX8

I am playing Olympic Panfare.

6n8s give both sparkle and air on the top and also full bass slam out of it.

It sounds gorgeous through 6n8s made in 53.

@big_greg



It will be better to contact dealer explaining what happened, that is, one tube has no noise and the other one has noise even after 20-30 hours.

He may send you one replacement tube.

Please update the progress.

Yesterday I got delivery of quad Sylvania vt231 which I paid only 175$ for four tubes.

Both pairs sound nice with pretty good bass, but one pair give slightly more air and sparkle than the other pair.

I had experienced similar things with Raytheon vt231.

Three pairs of RT vt231 sound different from each other,

One sounds lively, the other one sounds neutral, the third one in the middle.

@big-greg



Nice to hear good news from you.

He seems to be a nice gentleman.

@lowrider57


Some people claimed to have had cured the problem with re soldering pins.

They said most Russian tubes have problem with noise.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/page-120#post-15647922


That is why I consider soldering myself or send them to someone who can do better job than I,

Even if you get a replacement tube, they can develop problem later.

@lowrider57 

You can go through the Head fi thread that I gave you and then if you are comfortable, then you can try to re solder the pins.



Thomas

@lowrider57 

i remember hearing noise tube made in 83 ( that I got from Audiomart) but not from tubes made in 80( Russian and Ebay).

As I had played 6n8s tube for few days, I had not been playing 1578 for a while.

One person claimed that best 1578 that he had heard was made in 63.

There are many variations among the Nos tubes.

I have three pairs of Raytheon vt231 but they sound different from each other.

I also enjoy Russian 6n8s made in 53 with nice bass, air and sparkle.

Now I have around 100 tubes of 6sn7 variants.

I am listening to National Union black glass which will be the last one in the shootout.

I will summarize my findings this coming weekend.

I am listening to "Vision of Love " by Maria Carey through 1578 that I had bought from Russian dealer ( made in 80 same source as bought by big-greg and Lordcloud).

i do not notice any high frequency noise out of it.

Another interesting thing is that I had felt 1578 rather closed in with RCA 5691 (6sl7) in front of 1578 in Line Magnetic 508 amp.

But using Russian 6n9s made in 53 instead of 5691, this 1578 does not sound closed in but almost perfect neutral balance.


Now I am playing Miles and Coltrane "Straight No Chaser" track.

Trumpet sounds so clean with enough sparkle but not too hot.

Yesterday I had been back an forth between Melz 1578 made in 80 and Melz 6n8s made in 53.

While 1578 give slightly more dynamics and wider soundstage, 6n8s made in 53 give slightly more air and sparkle thus more suitable for lady vocal.


Pair of 1578 cost me 250$ while pair of 6n8s metal base made in 53 cost me 69$.

Thus 6n8s made in 53 give an excellent value.

http://www.monarchy-audio.com/DIP_Combo_Main_frame.htm

Monarch reclocker that I paid 200$ for used one three years ago changed the balance of my system.

With it back between music server and Hugo Mscaler, overall system sounds with more air and sparkle.

Now I favor 1578 over 6n8s made in 53 with better dynamics.

Another thing is that I start hearing some high frequency noise out of 6n8s.

Thus I may need to re solder the pins of it.

Russian tubes may not be for one who is not willing to do soldering himself.

So far 1578 tube that I had bought from Russian dealer sounds find without noise.

But it may develop some noise later on according to opinion from  people who have lot of experience with Russian tubes.

They claim to have cured the problem with re soldering pins.

@bigkidz 


Thanks for your kind word and input.

 I fully  understand that amp maker can not use Nos tubes because of limited quantity available and variation among them.

But it is still fun to do tube rolling.

Now I have around 50 pairs of 6sn7 tubes.

30 pairs will be in just storage.

I will take turns at 20 pairs to taste different flavor.

As of now, my favorite tube is 1578 Melz made in 1980 (250$ net cost to me through Ebay dealer)

Thomas

@mid40sguy 

It is very nice for you to enjoy 1578 tube made in 80's, 

I was skeptical of the tube when some person raved about it.

But after trying it in my amp, I became a believer.

@big_greg


It is good for you to get new replacement tube.

I hope that they will work fine.

I have three pairs of 1578 two made in 1980 and one in 1983.

Two of them had been bought from persons in US.

One of them is bought from Russian dealer.

The one from Russian dealer had been working fine so far for 30 hours.

if you have problem with it, contact the Russian dealer, it seems that Olga is cooperative with request.

Recently I had run into terrible Ebay dealer located in US.

I will post his case in more detail later today.

I ordered Kenrad vt 231 tube from Ebay dealer " vascotube " or "tube tech" on June 5th Thursday.

Most Ebay dealer ship the item on next day or following day.

But this guy did not show any shipping information by Saturday.

Thus i sent request to give tracking information.

But no response from him.

After going through his measurement " TUBE1) 90/112TUBE2) 100/120 ", I got the impression that this tube is not matched well.

Thus on Sunday I sent him to cancel this order if it had not been shipped.

But no response from him either.

On Monday, I gave him final ultimatum, if he does not respond to his reply, then I will leave negative feedback on him.

But I got no response by 6PM eastern time, thus I left negative feedback on him at his Ebay site.

Then he contacted me and asked me to start return process instead of his cancelling unshipped order.


I started return process but he refused to agree to return proceedure unless I change the feedback on him.

I told him that you had not responded to my three inquires for more than 48 hours.

Thus i can not change my feedback   out of my conscience.

He then found out that I am an Asian and gave me racial slur against Asian.

I had tried to resolve this case peacefully.

I told him that if he give me sincere apology about racial slur and cancel the order from his unshipped item, then I will close the case.

But no response for more than 10 days.


I had bought lot of things including Nos tubes in Ebay, but had not had any problem with anyone except this guy.

Most other dealers gave response to my inquiry within 12 hours.

But this guy did not respond to my three inquiries for more than 48 hours.

And then he made a racial slur against me.

I am going to file racial discrimination suit against him.

Stay away from Ebay dealer " vascotube "


Thomas

This is the mail that I sent him last Friday but no response.

He does not seem to realize what he had done wrong.




Re: Racial discrimination suit

Hi

Out of grace, I am going to give you the last chance.

If you express sincere apology about racial slur and cancel the order of Kenrac vt231 on your side by 6PM, Friday 19th,

then I will settle this case as solved.


If not, I will post your racial slur in three audio forums where I am well known member.

Also I will ask my attorney to file racial discrimination suit against you next week.


The fact that I gave you chance for leniency and you did not accept it will go agains you at the court proceeding.


Be wise young man. 

After receiving two more pairs of 6n8s metal base tube made in 1952 today, now I have 5 pairs of 6n8s metal base tubes in addition to 3 pairs of 1578 tubes made in 1980 and 83.

6n8s metal base sounds more female like with nuanced details while 1578 sounds more robust with deeper bass.

I will take turns at tubes depending on my mood.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-pair-Extremely-rare-1578-6N8S-audiophile-6H8S-6SN7-Metal-base/273874731266?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I am the one who started buying this stock.

But it seems that this dealer is responsive to buyer's request.

I heard that all old Russian tubes are prone to noise and the only way out is to do re soldering.

I recommend you to contact person with ID of " Paladin79 "in Headfi to learn how to do it.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/page-141#post-15715112

After having gone through more than 16 6sn7 Nos tubes last 6 months.

My recommendation is

If you like full bass and wide and deep soundstage , then you shall try Melz 1578.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-pair-Extremely-rare-1578-6N8S-audiophile-6H8S-6SN7-Metal-base/273874731266?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

This dealer replaced a noisy tube quick and easy.

Melz 1578 had been staying in Line Magnetic 508 amp for the last 3 months.

Sylvania vt 231, Kenrad vt231, RCA vt 231 are recommended if they are priced under 160$ pair with good measurement.

I switched from Melz 1578 to RCA vt231 in Line Magnetic 508 for fresh air.

Wow, there is more air floating around Altec A7.

The strength of Melz 1578 is deep and impactful bass, wide and deep soundstage with pure but slightly less treble.

While my Chord Dave Dac sent to AS center for repair, I had been using EMMLab Dac2 which give more organic and impactful sound than Dave.

Dave and Mscaler combo give more details and pinpoint imaging in 3d space.

With Dave and Mscaler and Lansche 4.1, I prefer Melz 1578 to other 6sn7 tubes made in USA.

But with EmmLab Dac2 and Altec A7, I prefer RCA vt231 to Melz 1578.

I may switch back to TS bgrp 2 weeks later.

Although I have 3 pairs of RCA vt231, I have only one pair of TS bgrp which is damm expensive for small input tube.

It is kind of mix and match.

There are no best tubes for everyone.

Vintage audio tubes are like vintage wines.

As some people collect lot of varius wines, I collect vintage tubes.


You may choose a tube depending on system and your mood.

By the way, dealers had jacked up the price of vintage 6sn7 tubes too much.

I paid 60$ for pair of Sylvania 6sn7 wgt with brown bass 3 years ago.

But now they ask around 200$ for pair of them.

Since I have around 80 pairs of 6sn7 tubes and variants, I will not buy more of 6sn7 tubes.

 

Thomas

Few days ago I replaced RCA vt231 with Sylvania 6sn7 wgt with brown bass (not metal bass) in Line Magnetic 508.

Sylvania 6sn7 wgt give vivid sound with sharper focus while RCA vt231 give more relaxed sound.

It is like wine tasting of vintage wines.

Most of vintage tubes sounds good but with different flavor.

It is up to you to choose specific flavor depending on your taste and system.

As I have more than 60 different kind of 6sn7 and variants, I take turns on tubes depending on my mood.

For the last three months, I had been using Amperex 6n7 in Line Magnetic 508 SET.

 

After playing with Puron plug in filters,  i switched to RCA vt231 whichs give nice details and sharp focus.

 

Yesterday i had gone back to Melz 1578.

 

Although 1578 does not give nice details and sharp focus.as RCA vt231, it makes sound organic and comforting with less treble overall.

 

The conclusion is that there is no best 6sn7 tube.

 

I keep changing tubes depending on my mood and change of components.

 

I have around 70 different kinds of 6sn7 and vanriants.

 

Thomas

@tksteingraber

I agree with you that vintage tubes are like vintage wines.

 

There is no best one but they have different flavor.

 

I recommend you to get 6f8g tubes from Ebay.

 

Tungsol got overpriced, but you may get RCA, Sylvania, National Union or Raytheon 6f8g  at reasonable price if you keep searching.

 

You need adapter which is also avaiilable at Ebay.

Good luck!

Thomas

@tksteingraber 

 

6F8g tubes tend to sound fuller than regular 6sn7.

 

Thus it may depend on your system and taste which one to choose.

 

Thomas

@tksteingraber

 

Raytheon sounds most brigh and detailed.

 

On the other hand, NU sounds full or dull.

 

Sylvania and RCA are in the middle.

 

Tungsol is also in the middle but overpriced due to some hype.

There are GE or other minor labels which sounds also middle.

 

i had collected more than 10 different labels but they sound different.

 

I am collector of vintage tubes for fun not for business.

 

Thomas

@paul_lindemann

 

I have 5 pairs of Sylvania vt231.

 

They are great but with too tight midbass.

 

If your system is bass rich, they may work well.

I also have two pairs of Kenrad vt231, thus agree your opinion on it.

 

Kenrad may do wonder with somebody's sytem with rather analytical balance.

 

I have 80 difierent kinds of 6sn7 and variants including 10 different kinds of 6f8g.

 

After going through all of them during last 4 years, I reached the conclution that there is no best one.

 

There are some top tier groups but they also need system matching.

 

Thomas

I do not intend to give detailed comparison of 6f8g tubes.

 

As soon as I do it, price of some tube will be jacked up.

 

Some 6f8g tubes are available under 120$ per pair, thus one had better find out.

 

It is like wine tasting.

I have 3 pairs of Melz but no more interest in them due to noise problem.

 

I also collected more than 8 ohter Russian tubes whish also sound decent.

 

Recently, I am using 6f8g tubes but no detailed review on them.

 

If I write detailed review, they will jack up the price..

 

Tungsol 6f8g got  overpriced due to hype.

 

Thomas

 

Thomas

Some people try to define which is the best 6sn7 tube.

 

But after going through more than 50 kinds of 6sn7 and variants, around 20 of them are pretty good.

 

The choice will be dependent on system and personal taste.

Vintage tubes are like vintage wines.

I sometime rotate between the tubes to taste different flavors.

 

Thomas

@tksteingraber 

 

It is indeed fun to rotate the tube depending on your mood or music.

 

But be sure to use socket saver.

 

Otherwise, it will be lot of work to replace tube socket in your pre or main amp.

Just 2 cents.

Thomas

I also had tried four different kind of 7n7 out of curiosity 2 years ago.

 

Although they sound clear and detailed but lack overall musicality compared with vt231 or 6f8g tunes.

 

I got the impression that they sound rather thin in my system.

 

But 7n7 tubes are reasonably priced.

 

Thus you may try them for fun or different flavor.

 

You never know until you try them in your system.

 

It need adapter.

 

Thomas

Thus no more interest in 7n7.

 

Thomas