An old philosopher once said, never go test something at someone else’s system. You might not like what you hear. 😬 There are too many variables.
Showing 24 responses by geoffkait
Wasn’t the test basically blind since nobody knew which direction would be the preferred direction, for each cable tested? Even the person reversing the cable didn’t know a priori. Unless the cables are marked for direction you can’t tell by looking at them. If they were marked, they wouldn’t have had to test them, no? Looks blind to me. 👀 |
Just to clarify again, I’m saying all wire is directional. The wire in all fuses, the wire in interconnects, speaker wire, the wire in power cords, internal speaker wire, transformers, the wire in capacitors, you name it. That’s why I suggested all one has to do to test this theory is flip the interconnects around assuming they aren’t shielded. But even if they are shielded it might be worth a shot. Somebody, please, put this puppy to rest! 🐶 |
The problem is statements like that, that everyone is welcome to their opinion, or that if someone feels like he doesn’t have to go high end, are OK, and can be quite soothing and conciliatory but do not (rpt not) address the actual heart ❤️ of the debate, you know, the one that’s been raging like a California wildfire 🔥for 40 years. Which is is there an audible difference among cables (or fuses)? (I know two is’s in a row again). All we have so far (if I can be so bold to summarize) is a lot of who shot John. “If someone did a blind test...” “If someone measured them...” “Let your ears decide...” |
nugat Of course pundits here will claim that there is no method to reliably study human hearing which is quantum phenomenally more sensitive than any measurements. >>>>That can’t be right since human hearing ability varies all over the place. Also it’s patently false that sound is completely determined by how the ears transmit acoustic vibration to the brain. That’s one of those beliefs we assume we learned somewhere along the line that everyone agrees must be true. What else could it be, right? But that’s a subject for another thread, another time, partner. 🤠 |
nugat OP At NASA there is a strict regulation to observe directionality of cables. Otherwise false discoveries could result like that at CERN where some neutrinos were faster than light. The problem with the neutrinos was they went back in time and disappeared off the screen. Just like the De Lorean in Back to the Future. That’s how Superman saved Lois Lane, by racing around the Earth a bunch of times faster than the speed of light. Duh! |
Just for the record the assumption that the onus is on the person making the claim is an old wives tale. It’s a myth perpetrated by clever little Skeptic Scamps. And that’s precisely why you won’t see any court cases - ever - where someone somewhere decides to take some cable or tweak manufacturer to task legally over some preposterous-sounding claim or another. Want some prime examples? OK, Silver Rainbow Foil, Morphic Message Foils, Clever Little Clock, the Intelligent Chip, the Teleportation Tweak, Mpingo disc, the Blue Fuse, tiny little bowl resonators. Besides it’s not as if I’m the only one making the claim. I’m afraid you’re going to have to demand that every single person who has reported positive results over the last twenty five years perform blind tests, including all the cable companies who are advanced enough in their thinking to control directionality of their cables and cords. |
gdhal “At the same though, and in the absence of any proof whatsoever, those such as Geoff who profess to hear positive differences in wire direction ought to keep that observation to himself (i.e. without posting on a public forum). It’s akin to someone writing "I can walk on water", and then expecting that no one will chime back in asking for proof. And while the hobby is not about proving anything, it shouldn’t/wouldn’t hurt where possible and applicable.” >>>>>You act as though you’re a complete newcomer to a debate that has been going on for twenty years, at least. Are you Rip Van Winkle? 😬 We already have evidence that wire measures (resistance) better in one direction than the other from the data sheets on the HiFi Tuning web site that involves measuring directionality of fuses. And it’s always that direction that sounds better. It’s not random. And all fuses are directional, not just the latest spate of high end fuses. And they’re direction because the wire itself in the fuse is directional. We also have evidence of all the high end cable manufacturers who control directionality and mark their cables with arrow to guide the user how to connect them. Have been for years. Especially very well established high end companies like Audioquest (very outspoken on the subject of directionality) that controls directionality for ALL of their cables including power cords and HDMI cables. Hel-loo! Wakey, wakey! Geez, you’d have to believe there is some sort of enormous global conspiracy by manufacturers attempting to fool gullible and naive audiophiles. We also have the evidence of all those who have reported on these forums over the years, the great many years, hearing differences in fuse direction and cable direction. Wake up and smell the roses! 🌷🌷🌷 This whole directionality debate serves as an excellent example of the Backfire Effect, which is what oft occurs to someone has strong beliefs or is extremely skeptical when confronted with contradictory evidence. He becomes more strongly convinced he must actually be right and that the contrary evidence is intended to somehow deceive him. The more contrary evidence the stronger the Backfire. Ka-pow! As Juror 3, the last holdout in 12 Angry Men, kept saying, “You can’t prove it!” In many cases there is no proof, only evidence. We must weigh the evidence. As I said anyone can try it for himself by reversing interconnects or speaker cables or a fuse. It’s not rocket science. 🚀 |
Wire directionality can easily explain the results of your test. Wire directionality was not even a gleam in an audiophile’s eye in the ‘80s. For all you guys knew, you were comparing directions, not cables. Would it be fair to say one person in the group had reasonably good hearing but the rest were of, uh, unknown or questionable ability? 🙄 |
Well, I certainly hope you’re not trying to convince us that everybody will get the same subtle results that you and your buds got. It all comes down to the sticky question, what exactly do tests prove, if anything - even when they’re positive? We already know what they prove when they’re negative, right? |
jetter Lets not ignore the elephant in the room. The purpose of the double blind test, which geoff cannot help himself to react to other than by saying they are rigged, is to determine whether there is really a discernable difference in sound or its a case of people wanting to believe they are paying the dues to buy into an elite club. >>>>I never said they are rigged, well, perhaps in the case of The Amazing Randi, who made very unreasonable demands on those tested. For example, having the test performed at a location of Randi’s choosing. Having to use a system of his (Randi’s) choosing. Having to use unfamiliar discs in the test. And having to pass ten consecutive tests. I mean, come on, people! As far as other blind tests go, at least in the general sense, what I actually said is that they don’t prove anything if results are inconclusive or negative due to the myriad reasons tests can be corrupted. Just like any type of test. Reasons include but are not limited to failure to follow instructions, lack of experience in listening tests or plain old hearing impairment, and mistakes in the system. The best laid plans of mice and men oft go awry. 🐁 I have more experience than the average bear when it comes to testing, not only testing for sound but in testing of very large expensive communications systems. Know what I mean, jelly bean? |
That’s exactly right! Skeptics always demand that True Believers do the blind test. As if that will prove skeptics were right, after all. The skeptics never do the blind tests themselves. What are they afraid of? Like I keep saying, the only real utility blind tests have for audio is as a weapon wielded by skeptics in the war on “irrational tweaks” and “preposterous ideas." |
“This was essentially the test I ran at AES in the 80’s. It is difficult to get exactly the same LCR parameters for different construction. We used 12ga THNN 19 strand and a Monster Pro, also 12ga. Some who took repeated tests could tell better than 80%. Many who took the test only once got results far above guessing and some did worse than guessing. When results were tabulated, it was pretty well evenly split. Many of those who did poorly were firmly in the ’canbenodifference’ camp. Unfortunately, we did not collect information as to whether the participants could felt they could reliably determine differences or not. Just as some are color blind or tone deaf, some are not able to hear subtle differences in phase and level.” >>>>>Huh? I doubt anyone could hear a significant difference between those two particular cables. I assume you were trying to portray Monster as a sort of high end cable. But perhaps not. I had some Monster Cable circa 1983 and frankly, it sucked. I did not say that to the head of Monster with whom I dined at CES some years later. In any case, as I’ve opined on more than a few occasions, a single test - even when carefully planned, thorough and performed by AES or any other illustrious group or person, means nothing when the results are inconclusive or negative. In other words you cannot draw any generalizations or conclusions. Of course, there are many reasons why a test can fail to achieve positive results, hence my rather dogmatic statement. The best laid plans of mice and men oft go awry. And things have changed a little bit since the 80s, you betcha. So that’s another reason not to use the example from AES for any cable debate. Furthermore, I suggest more interesting tests would be (1) stranded vs solid core, (2) copper vs silver, (3) cryo’d vs non-cryo’d, and (4) one direction vs the other. Then, I predict, your results will not (rpt not) be inconclusive. |
gdhal @geoffkait Just curious... in terms of information you are writing herein in response to the OPs post, why wouldn’t you just link to articles you’ve previously written? Wouldn’t your own time spent be better served if you were to perform your own cable reversal tests, listen for any audible differences, document same, and submit your findings as opposed to essentially re-entering all of your previous post? https://www.stereophile.com/content/wire-directionality-how-bad-it >>>>Why would I test cables? I already know they’re directional. Wouldn’t it actually serve a better purpose if skeptics did their own tests? Skeptics already don’t believe in directionality, so they probably wouldn’t believe my test results either. As I said it’s not rocket science. 🚀 You just turn them around. It’s not that difficult. Really. Why don’t I like to past posts on other forums? Wouldn’t you rather get the latest thoughts as opposed to ones several years ago? You know, just in case I’ve refined my ideas. Maybe not. 😬 |
gasbose geoffkait: I've always been curious about wire directionality. What causes a cable or interconnect to work better in one direction than the other? All: Please feel free to chime in. Is there any scientific basis for this? The most reasonable explanation is that (1) metal is a crystal structure, (2) when the metal is fabricated into wire it’s drawn through a series of progressively smaller dies, (3) the otherwise fairly homogeneous crystal structure of the copper or silver wire is physically distorted and deformed when it’s pulled through the final, not only on the surface of the wire but below the surface as well. Thus, photons have a more difficult time traveling through the conductor in one direction than the other direction. And resistance is measured as lower in the “correct direction” of the wire. A scientific test of this theory is simple. Reverse (unshielded) interconnects and see if they sound better one way than the other. |
ieales Can you give an example of two cable assemblies with the same measured LCR numbers and vastly different sound? >>>>>>>I was commenting on stringreen’s post which was, ”I originally thought that a short length of speaker (2 1/2 meter) cable didn’t mean that much difference....especially two same lengths of very similar construction. I substituted one kind - thin minimally jacketed silver - with another thin minimally jacketed silver... both were a bi-wired set. The difference was night and day. I don’t know why, but that is the truth.” |
stringreen I originally thought that a short length of speaker (2 1/2 meter) cable didn't mean that much difference....especially two same lengths of very similar construction. I substituted one kind - thin minimally jacketed silver - with another thin minimally jacketed silver... both were a bi-wired set. The difference was night and day. I don't know why, but that is the truth. >>>>>The most likely reason is wire directionality. One cable was connected in the right direction, the other in the wrong direction. Case solved. |
chayro For the millionth time, why does everybody ignore the fact that the Aczel crowd never maintained that all cables sound the same. Their theory was that all differences between cables are due solely to inductance, resistance and capacitance values, which are easily measured and can drastically change the frequency response of a speaker. So, yes - cables with the same LCR values will sound the same. So they maintain. Whether it’s true or not is another story. An excellent example of a wishy washy defense of Aczel. Not that I blame you very much. As my old boss at NASA used to say, never get behind anyone 100%. 😬 |
Not wishing to appear too pedantic here but technically the whole thing is a lot more like the Hidden Variables theory than the Heisenburg Uncertainty principle, the latter having to do with the inability to measure velocity and location of an atomic particle simultaneously. In other words how do you explain cables that measure the exact same L, R, C sound different all things being equal? |
Sorry to disabuse anyone of the belief that blind tests mean anything. Especially if the results are negative. Would anyone expect anything of value to materialize when a bunch of giggling skeptics get together for a blind test? 🤡 Furthermore it’s highly unlikely that in ideal situations, you know, good ears and good equipment, that no differences would be observed as there is almost always some audible difference in the sound. |