Round Two: Best Speakers for LOUD music and rock??


Hi:

ROUND TWO, here we go.......

I listen to mostly rock, classic rock, female vocals, and the occasional dramatic symphony or opera, VERY LOUDLY.

I posted here before, and, taking everyone's comments into account, I purchased a used set of Genesis Vs.

They are great speakers, but failed for me in three critical areas: One, they seem to cause my amps to shut down at much lower volume than my present NHT 3.3s (even though the Genesis are rated as 3dB higher efficiency -- 90dB/4 ohms, as opposed to 87dB/4 ohms for the 3.3s), two, I cannot successfully couple these speakers to my room in such a way as to make the bass taut, dynamic and authoritative, and three, they do not image, in my room, as well as the 3.3s. Not even close.

My main system now consists of:

NHT 3.3s,
NHT SubTwo Subwoofer (60Hz & below only)
Cary 306/200 CD Player,
Sony XA 777es SACD player,
BAT VK5i preamp,
Audio Research M300mkII tube monoblocks,
MIT 750 Shotgun Tube Biwires,
MIT 350 Twin 30' ICs,
AudioZen Silver mkII I/Cs for front end.

I have a LARGE listening room with lots of glass & high sloping ceilings, app. 20x40 ft. w/18' ceilings.

I want to try again to upgrade my speakers, and I am considering a used pair of either Dunlavy SC-Vs, JM Mezzo Utopias, Legacy Focus, VMPS, Montana XP, Revel Ultima Studios, etc., etc.

My system is a tad bright right now, but not objectionably so. The imaging is stellar, and the soundstage depth is good, not great. I want smooth, rich, warm sound, yet detailed and clear, and as I said, I listen at VERY loud volumes for extended periods of time. I MUST have the slam and tight, low bass needed for the type of music I listen to.

Because of the size of speakers involved, I will obviously not be able to hear them with my system 'til I buy them, but, I guess I can just buy a good used pair here on Audiogon & sell them and try another pair if I need to.

Any comments/suggestions?

Thanks - Jeff
jeffj
Jeff,
I'm using the 3.3's myself, often for long periods. Bi-amping does more for these speakers than any I have owned. I can't express the difference in words. SPL is one issue relative to power output. But along with power, comes CONTROL of the drivers. If you have the duckies, I would suggest another pair of the monoblocks you are using. Not only will you get a bit more volume, but the amps won't be exhausted at the extreme end of the spectrum, which seems to be the arena where you lack satisfaction.

The NHT's (especially the 3.3's) are very unforgiving of non-neutral or excessively bright electronics and recordings. I used a BAT VK3i for a short time, teamed with Sunfire 300's (Biamped) with glorious results. I've since moved on to home theater. I'm still using the 3.3's biamped with Anthem MCA II's, and SS preamp/ processor. I've been unable to capture that same "magic", but the system still sounds great.

The 3.3's are VERY power-hungry. You know that. But the more juice you feed them, the more "open" they sound. It sounds like you've got them set up right. Moving them slightly away from the wall will improve the soundstage slightly, but you will lose some of the impact of your lower octaves.

The next upgrade I would suggest would be cheaper, and far more noticable: Replace the subs with a servo-controlled beast or 2. I've got a PAIR of Mirage BPS-400's, and find that they definitely add a little more slam to the flat sound of the 3.3's. I haven't used, or been exposed to, the SUB TWO, but the fact that you're crossing over at 60Hz leads me to believe that the 3.3's aren't being used to their full potential. An extra pair of amps would help you push the envelope. Let those 3.3's sing at full range, with the power where you need it. The subs can supplement the 3.3's when necessary. I find that my subs are unnecessary for music, but add that extra kick for home theater use.

Best regards.
Happy Holidays.
David.
I think you should try "hifiho's" recommendation about "bi-amping" the 3.3's before you sell them! You will definitley get more dynamic ease, slam, and impact with a dedited amp driving the bottom woofer!(bottom posts). However, my STRONG recommendation is to forget the tubes on the bottom, and use an excellent solid state amp to handle the bass. Parasound HCA3500 used makes the most sense of anything you could chose, as it has superb powerful bass at 350w/ch, and has VOLUME CONTROLS ON THE BACK for proper balancing with your tube amps! I doubt anyone in the hifi industry would argue with that recommendation for "bi-amp" puposes!
At least before you go dumping those excellent rock speakers(as passive speakers go), you should try it. Also, yes, doing powered subs set up well, and crossing over your 3.3's for "small" on your pre/pro(if you have one) would be something to try(still trying biamping however on the speakers).
Dunlavy's will be fast and accruate souding for rock, and might be a future try. But you should still give the 3.3's more "tinkering" before you let go...my suggestion.
Another strong candidate choice is what is offered in active speakers by ATC. But you can also get high end sound from "powered woofer speakers" like Infinity Prelude MTS's or NHT VT3's(rated as better than 3.3's in every respect(?)).
good luck
Good luck
Hi:

Thanks to ALL for the great posts and valuable input.

Regarding the suggestion to biamp, believe me, I've tried. That's why I modified the speakers (a factory production tech did it for me) to add a switch that can bypass the low-end crossover, if I wish.

I've tried both ways - using a pair of SS monoblocks and an outboard LP xover, and also just running an additional pair of amps straight in to the woofers/LP xover in the speakers. The problem was that I could not get the bass and mids/highs to sound seamless or full - I used a pair of 280 watt SS monoblocks. Weirdly enough, the speakers sounded MUCH better running full-range biwired. I mean, NO comparison. Using the second pair of SS amps, the bass was just awful. Present, yes, but either loose, sloppy and all over the place, or barely present. No matter WHERE the gain was set.

As a last resort, I have a third ARC M300mkII monoblock, and I've had an ad on here trying to buy a fourth one so I can try biamping with four of the identical monoblocks. No luck, so far, though....

Thanks - Jeff
Most hi-end speakers...be it SPendor,Sonus Faber,Vandersteen,etc..do not perform well at moderately high listening levels...let alone "loud" levels...Im talking SPLs just above conversation level...they chuff,distort,and basically resort to one-note bass sounds...I am by no means a "balls to the walls" rocker...but I am not 60 yrs old either...every now and then I like to turn it up for "visceral" purposes...and for low distortion at hi-volume...Maggies are tough to beat...especially with a sub...they do "rock" alot better than what people give them credit for (1.6s anyways)
audition and be done with it. High-end speakers are not built to play rock w/out "blowing". The Focus 20/20 will not let you down. Other than that it's the Legacy Sig 3 or b+W naut 801. Good luck