Of course I meant "... colored and annoying, for the long terms"
Raidho D1 audition
Two weeks ago I have heard the Raidho D1 speakers in a hi-end shop in Amsterdam (A10 audio). Surprisingly, but luckily for me, I was the only one attending the "morning" demonstration. I could listen all the CD that I brought with me sitting in the sweet spot and without any disturbances.
The D1 where driven by the Jeff Rowland Corus preamp and the 625 power amp. There were two CD players hooked up, i.e. the dCS Vivaldy and an EMM labs single box retailing at roughly 30k euros (I did not asked which model it was). The dealer told me that the system was optimized for the dCS player, meaning he has used his most expensive cables costing around 30K euros. He did not mention which brand of cables he used and I did not bother asking as I find it silly to use cables that cost as much as the pre-power combo (we all have our prejudice in this regard).
The D1s sounded certainly nice, very detailed and fast but also with a very full midrange. Resolution-wise, one would have a rather hard time to find speakers that are more transparent in the midrange and highs (IMO of course). Speed-wise, while very fast, the D1s are not as fast as horns or electrostatics. The stereo image and soundstage were quite good (given the fact that the listen room was filled with other electronics and speakers) and together with the very detail and full midrange made for a rather impressive presence of the speaker in the room. That is, voices and most instruments where rendered with full body and size with a confidence typically associated to large speakers (at least in my experience).
I could not really judge the bass output of the D1s, as the room was quite large (given the D1s' size), plus the position of the speakers in the room was not chosen to give the best bass response but rather a good stereo image and soundstage. Nonetheless, it seemed decent. However, given the level of performance in the midrange and high departments, it would be a pity to not add one or two top of the line subwoofers (in fact as many as necessary) to achieve a world class performance also in this department.
I have quite a bit of experience with moderately high priced monitors like Dynaudio C1 (mk 1&2), Focal Micro Be & Diablo, Wilson Duette and Vivid Audio V1.5. Among these monitors, the Focal Diablo sounds the closest to the D1s, i.e. fast and detailed. The Vivid V1.5 has also a similar presentation. While the D1s sounded much better than any of these monitors, I find it hard to say how much better it really is. Not only I have listen these speakers in different system and room and at very different times, but one should not underestimate the effect made by the dCS Vivaldi in the D1 demo I had. (The Vivaldi was a marvelous cd player to say the least, though at 90K euros ones should not be surprised.) Maybe I should also mention here that the dealer told me that in his opinion the D1s are above the Magico Q1 (while being cheaper here in Europe). Since I have never listened the Q1s, I can not make any comment in this regard, but the dealer carries Magico speakers for a long time and has first hand experience with the Q1s.
I would conclude by saying that I was quite impress with the Raidho D1 speakers. 17k euros (including stands) is certainly a lot of money for a monitor with limited bass, but the reality is that 17K represents only a fraction of the price of other expensive monitors, e.g. TAD CR1. (I would be really interested to hear from people who have listen the TAD CR1 monitor and also the Raidho D1s).
Finally, I should acknowledging A10 audio in Amsterdam (www.a10audio.nl) for putting together a very nice demo.
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>>WRONG Razmika .. Mmmm... I looked in to that. At the time this was written (March), he had not yet received his first demo unites form Magico and he has never heard the Q1, nor does he have them now nor before. Yet, it did not stop anyone from calming that he has JV, lost his exclusivity on Magico so he goes out and find Raidho; something else he can champion. A nice small 2-way, MDF box, ceramic woofer, and a ribbon. Nice but nothing else. These have been around for some time, but apparently no one cared until JV said it is OK. It really is OK, but it is not a Magico (Nor a Vivid). Not in spec, value, nor performance. If you wish, go and visit the dealer you are talking about and hear the C1 or D1 next to the cheaper Magico S1. Once you get over the “ribbon” sound, which is impressive for short terms listening BUT extremely colored and enjoying for the long terms , it will be an easy choice. BTW, the so called "diamond" woofer, is also a bit of marketing BS. You can vaporize carbon on just about anything. It is not very expensive, and at this level, not very effective. Definitely not to be confused with drivers like the Accuton diamond domes. |
05-25-13: Starfi3ld Hi Boon. I may be able to help. I own the Raidho C-1.0 and the Raidho D-2 and have auditioned the C-1.1 and D-1. I have highlighted the differences between the C-1.1 and the D-1 in my Blog |
Nvp, Thank you so much for your input. It gives me a good understanding of how Raidho would compare with the Dynaudio. I have been using the Dynaudio C1s in my system for 8 years, I used a Gryphon integrated amp with it originally, and the sound was quite dark and slow. After many changes, now I team the C1s with Linn Solo amplifiers and Crystal cables, and it is now much faster and more neutral. I am thinking there is a risk that if I go with the Raidho speaker, I may need more change in the rest of my system. |
As a happy owner of D1, the sound change tremendously after 60-70 hours At first I feel the bass is not tight and the impact is not good,after 50 hours The bass become clearer but still not tight ,the remaining area are really stunning, after changing IC to HF ct1 from my Manley Chinook to hovland Hp200 ,source is luxman new TT with dynavector xx1mk2 carts, bass became tight,fast and the impact is real like in my system. Very satisfying. Just to share my experience. |
Razmika, when one goes to a well organized demonstration into a shop that is stuffed with a lot of expensive electronics (beside the ones demonstrated) and also finds a very friendly and accommodating dealer, one does not ask the dealer whether or not he is an official dealer for all the products that are displayed in the shop (IMO of course). As mentioned before, I have seen Magico speaker in that shop for quite some time now, i.e. 2 years or so. I do not think I've made any bad comments or untrue, for that matter, about Magico speakers. If anything, I have politely asked the guy who claims that has experience with both speakers (D1 and Q1) to elaborate. I have reopened the discussion about Magico because I have found the situation strange. On the one hand, the two poster mentioned in my previous post subscribed on audiogon only to point out that A10 Audio is not an official Magico dealer, and on the other hand, the dealer who organized the demo was also informed that he is not an official Magico dealer and consequently he wrote me (without being informed by me about my "review") to explain the situation in more details. I've taken the time to shared me experience here in the hope that other will do the same and we can all have a constructive discussion about the Raidho D1 speakers and maybe also about their direct competition, e.g. Magico Q1, TAD CR1, Raidho C1.1, etc. So, I do not quite understand your tone. Regarding your visit to USA, you should realize that USA spans almost a third of a continent ... |
Nvp, I tend to agree, it is quite often that a discussion involving Magico turns into mudslinging, but it is hard to keep an honest conversation going when so many posts and opinions about Magico are fabricated out of thin air. Take for example your post, you choose to write “the dealer carries Magico speakers for a long time” when, apparently, this dealer was never a dealer. Or how about Dracule1 here, claiming that he “know a dealer in US who carries both Magico and Raidho” where it looks to me that there are no such dealers in existence (I would like to hear both product at the same room, so I am looking ). I am not sure why so many audiophiles insist of comparing (more like fantasizing) whatever product they seem to like to Magico. Blaming Magico, or its dealers for “aggressively advertising” is a bit ironic, when it was you who actually brought the Magico brand in to the conversation. |
So you're saying the D1 knocks the Pulsars out of the nights sky? ;) I just had a brief audition of the D1s which were just taken out of the box. The only significant difference I hear is the increased bass slam of the D1s. They aren't broken in so I will have reaudition after couple hundred hours of break in. |
Hi guys, I'm sorry for the very late reply. First I would like to mentioned that I though a bit about the posts of Maxgalla and Windmolen above, and I find them rather dubious. They seems to have subscribed on Audiogon only to point out that A10 Audio in Amsterdam is not an official Magico dealer. Furthermore, the next day after my last post here I got a mail from the dealer (who put together the D1 demo) with details about his experience with the Magico Q1 speakers. Apparently, he has set up (together with the Magico distributor) the Magico Q1 speaker for an audio show using his own electronics (Zanden and Soulution), and also listen to the Q1s more than once in combination with Soulution electronics. At first I was a bit surprised by this whole turn of events, but then I've realized that Magico speakers are advertised rather aggressively on most of the hi-fi sites I visit. It seems they train their dealers (at least the dutch ones) to be just as aggressive. :) Coming back on topic, here are my answers to the posts "addressed" to me: Sidekick_i, thanks for the report about your tour of the Raidho factory. Did you have the chance to compare the D and C monitors. If yes, can you elaborate a bit on the differences? Sabai and Dracule1, thanks for sharing your experience with the TAD and Raidho speakers. I agree with Dracule1 that comparing two speakers in two different systems that are also in different rooms is of limited value. Unfortunately, often this is the only thing we can do. Also, based on my limited experience with the Raidho D1 and the TAD Evolution speakers, I agree with Dracule1 that the C1.1 (or the D1s for that matter) can not totally outclass the TAD CR1 speakers. In fact, based on the experience I had last year in Munich with the TAD Evolution speakers (hooked up to top of the line TAD electronics) I find it very hard that any system at any price can totally outclass that TAD system. (As mentioned before, the TAD CR1 model is supposed to be better than the Evolution model.) Wenrhuang, when I had the C1s in my system I have liked them very very much. The two brands have very different presentations, quite opposite IMO. I would call the Raidho presentation transparent, while the Dynaudio presentation dark. IMO the Raidho C and D monitors are much faster and more detailed than the Dynaudio C1, but the Dyns have a more fuller sound. Which one would one prefer is a matter of taste. I should also say that, compared to my current speakers (Avantgarde UNO G2) both my previous monitors (Dynaudio C1 and Focal Micor utopia Be) sounded slow and "boxy" (almost broken). While I did not compared directly the Raidho D1 monitors with my UNOs, my guess is that they will compare better than the Focal Micro Be and the Dynaudio C1. |
Dracule1, I was not making a direct A/B comparison, of course. Just my impressions. For my ears, the TADS do not have the same sound stage/imaging quality of the C1.1s. Which is why I say they are outclassed. The TADs are amazing speakers but the Raidhos do some thing that no other speaker I have ever heard even comes close to achieving. |
Hey Sabai, I'm glad you like the Raidhos. I like the Raidho C1.1s a lot, but comparing TAD CR1s to the C1.1s in two completely different systems and drawing a conclusion or opinion is of limited value. I've auditioned both (not in the same system) and prefer the C1.1s, but I don't think CR1s are totally outclassed or on a whole different level. |
Nvp, I auditioned the Raidho C1.1 monitors in Singapore last week -- with no room treatment or tweaks. They were stunning. As difficult it is to compare 2 different speakers in 2 different systems, my opinion is that the TAD CR1s I auditioned a few weeks ago in Bangkok are totally outclassed by the Raidhos. The Raidhos are on a whole different level. YMMV. |
I've recently been visiting the Raidho facilities in Aalborg, Denmark. The day offered a tour including an overview of the Raidho design philosophy and impressive line of production. It's a relatively small company with very ambitious goals combined with skills and craftsmanship of the highest level. In a relatively ordinary room without any acoustic treatment other than thoughtful proportions and rigid wall structures, the C- and D-series performed in a way that can not be described as anything else but world class. Realistic, homogeneous, balanced, engaging, enfolding and highly musical, where the speakers tend to disappear completely (especially the C- and D monitors). All models played with a very high grade of resolution, with great transparency and realistic dynamics combined with warmth, body and authority that impressed me greatly. The performance was among the best I've ever heard on small-scale music (which I primarily listen to myself ), but they handled complex symphony orchestras and live rock just as easily. The units are also compact and stylish with a finish better than most. I was very, very impressed. |
I know a dealer in US who carries both Magico and Raidho line. His take on the D1 vs Q1 is the D1 is a more refined speaker with better resolution and staging/imaging, and better rendition of timbre and microdynamics. The Q1 is a more balls to the wall kind of speaker that can pressurize a room to a greater extent than the D1. So if you want to rock out, the Q1 may be the speaker for you. If you listen more to jazz, classical, vocals, etc, the D1 has the advantage. But he said you still won't be disappointed with rock on D1 because it will rock when called for. |
Kiwi_1282001, the dealer told me he has set up Q1 speakers (how often or how many I do not know). I do not know how many hours the D1s have been played before the show. I believe the pair belonged to the dutch distributor. Regarding the room, the situation was certainly not bad, the D1 were out into the room far from any room boundaries and/or speakers and other equipments. Sabai, last year in Munich I was extremely impress with the TAD Evolution speakers and this under show conditions. I was told that the TAD CR1 are even better. This is why I am curious about them. Maxgalla and Windmolen, now that you have mentioned it, I remember reading on the Concerto Audio's site that they are the only official dutch dealer for Magico speakers. Since A10 audio has Magico speaker in their show room for some time now, I did not put much though into this. However, I have never said that A10 audio is the official Magico dealer. I merely reported what I was told, i.e. that Alex from A10 audio has first hand experience with the Magico Q1 speakers. Windmolen, if you have experience with the two speaker why not elaborate a bit on the topic. I am sure many (including myself) will be interested in such a comparison. Sidekick_i, how does one get to be invited to the Raidho factory? :) Please report back, here or in a separate thread. Happy listening! |
Thanks for the write up Nvp. The listening environment sounds far from ideal, particularly your observations about room size, speaker positioning and the proximity to other loudspeakers. I think it is saying something to come away impressed under such circumstances. A couple of questions if I may? First, did the dealer say how he arrived at his opinion that the Raidho D1 was better than the Magico Q1? Second, do you know how many hours the D1 speaker had been run in for? Deliveries of the D1 have been pretty recent. |
Nvp, I had the opportunity to listen to the TAD CR1 monitors last weekend in Bangkok. I had the whole listening room to myself for about an hour. The sound was good but not exceptional. Speed, transparency, detail, imaging and sound stage were all under-performing -- due to the lack of room treatment and the cheap cabling in the system, IMO. The system had low end Nordost and Kimber cabling. I had brought along a cable and a tweak to test and they made a huge improvement in the sound. All parameters took a huge leap forward. I feel that the TADs are capable of producing world class sound with high quality "accessories". Unfortunately, for purposes of comparison, I have not heard the Raidho monitors yet. Maybe soon in Singapore. |
