If you are a two channel enthusiast I get the allure of passive speakers. There are a LOT of very beautiful amps to roll out there. Integrated, stereo, and monoblock. If monoblocks are regarded as superior why doesn’t everyone use them? The price. Look around and you can find monoblocks starting at $1000 a channel and upwards of $10,000 a channel. For a TWO channel system take that price and mutiply x 2, or x 4 if you are going to biamp. That is fine... for TWO channels.
Why are multi-channel amps so much cheaper? Because they are....cheaper, as in inferior to a good monoblock amp.
So, how can you biamp your 5+ channel system with monoblocks at a price that is even more competitve than a MCH amp? Use active speakers. Active speakers have a dedicated monoblock for each driver. You can buy a pair of good active speakers for the equivalent of ONE good monoblock amp.
So, if you are a two channel person who likes amp rolling and have a nice budget, go for it.
If you are going into MCH system and looking at MCH amps DON’T do it. Look for active speakers instead.
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@donavabdear
I hope even someone stumbling onto this thread has at least seen why quality powered speakers are superior
I would hope they simply see the advantages, especially price to performance ratio.
I have been pointing out the problems with powered speakers
Actually all you have done is praise the Genelecs, you may not realize it but the perception I get is you point out the problems of the 9H (passive), the subs (active) and the amp (hybrid). Then you pointed out problems of buying mismatched gear, so no, I didn’t get that point the problem is with powered speakers.
If all the components were made for each other the entire system would sound better.
To the point, your Genelecs sync, your curated system has stumbled a bit. AFTER you audition a matched Bryston, JBL, or Meridian active system we can discuss.
I realize that I have a matched system of Paradigm speakers, Anthem amps, and a Paradigm streamer/transport. If I got an Anthem AVM processor it would be completely matched but it lacks some features I like.
I had way more headroom than everyone else
You said the magic word HEADROOM, you can’t get the headroom an active system provides with MCH amps in a HT, impossible because all those channels draw from the same power supply. Like sticking 7 straws in a drink and saying its better.
Sound now has more resolution in every way than we can hear
It’s sad, MCH sounds more lifelike than hirez according to the Sound and Vision reviewer. Blind test a red book vs hirez recording with 10 untrained listeners and how many can spot the difference reliably? Put 10 people in a room for the same demo the reviewer got with Miles (hirez vs atmos) and it would be 100% reliable which one is which.
So naturally manufactures should market the most efficient speaker/amp/DAC/Streamer system possible
Bryston is already doing that, those speakers measure like a Floyd Toole master class in speaker design. The passive measure great, the active even better. Same with JBL synthesis, same with Meridian. People buy what they want, not what has the best validated performance. My Paradigm active speakers measure and perform better in every way than their passive counter part. Guess which design had a longer run? The one that was worse, go figure.
nope they are very happy to have all of us waste money buying everything separately
The members here are more sophisticated than a Best Buy shopper. Go look at their systems and if you tell them they are wasting money they are happy doing it, LOL. You got to offer what the customers want, not what they should want. Hence, the reason I like this thread you started, active is a wiser investment on a dollar to SQ basis. They are the opposite of wasteful.
getting it wrong most of the time then buying more and more and more equipment.
Says the man about to buy $$$ speakers without a proper audition, go figure.
What about we change it to:
Getting it RIGHT most of the time by AUDITIONING more and more equipment.
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And if you have to have towers the Bryston "T-Rex" ACTIVE speaker is formidable.
It wouldn’t be my choice but for the guys wanting two channel towers OMG:
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Even through a lossy youtube video the ACTIVE Bryston Mini-T’s seem fantastic and priced very reasonable. A matched 7.1.4 system with these speakers would be great for both 2 channel and immersive. I would get the Bryston SP4 processor/preamp which can do double duty as the crossover in place of the BAX-1 crossover and preamp in the video.
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@donavabdear
I was just reading in a very high end forum that external crossovers are bad
Great, but you have to compare yourself. I like forums for information but I always verify myself. There are many forums that publish misinformation, you have to sort it out. I would trust Harman and Bryston because they have warranties and returns would reduce margins. Maybe someone got an external crossover that was mismatched, fine.
There is nothing experiential about it, audiophiles don't love the music
Uhhhh, you may want to rethink that hypothesis
Simply another way audiophiles are confused
Spending $200K on equipment before auditioning many many possibilities is rational? I just don't see a problem if confused people audition a lot of stuff first. Most websites offer trial periods, this is not a BIG problem if you audition.
BTW, the T-Rex active speakers plus the crossover is around $25K (not including the amps, you can roll your own or use Bryston). If you want towers, go BIG or go home I say. 😁
I prefer a 7.1.4 system of the active Mini-T's though.
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Model T Signature + the Bax-1 crossover pre-owned for $10K + $700 shipping (byo amps)
I would marry these puppies to this 7 channel monster and live in active speaker bliss. This one amp could power all of the drivers, both speakers, at 400W a channel AND use the current source output for the tweeters for that tube like quality:
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@donavabdear
Please see the above, the only thing that confuses me is when this quality is available for <$15K, all in, WHY would someone consider spending more and getting less?????
Now if you got money left over build a dedicated room, a nice wine collection, a private chef, have a party, THAT is not confusing, at least to me. 👌
That amp was made for biamping or triamping with external crossovers, see page 13 in the manual:
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@jon_5912
I’ve got some really expensive active speakers that I got crazy cheap because audiophiles are slow.
Bingo! That’s exactly how I scored my active speakers! Fortunately for both of us active speakers fly under the radar. I love my passive JBL’s but it took an amp that cost 3 x more than the speakers to get them to sound their best.
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@donavabdear
If you are worried about crossovers I think your mind is at ease that the Bryston BAX-1 is at the same level of quality as their amps and according to David Rich, it’s brilliant. If I were shopping I would be worried about the crossovers inside your passive speakers. It is the easiest part to cut corners with because it is out of sight, here is the brand you are thinking about, YIKES:
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And another benefit of an external crossover is being able to amp roll, look how Danny breaks down this ATC active speaker. @lonemountain do you want to respond. After watching this my NEXT loudspeaker will be active with either the BAX-1 of the JBL SDEC external crossover. You get the best of all worlds:
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@donavabdear
Danny Richie from GR Research has a channel worth checking out. Part fact, part tongue in cheek humor. If you liked that video he gas some where he breaks down $$$ speakers and you see the beautiful cabinets with $20 crossovers and you know where your money went, ouch. You should also check out his take on cables.
I think every digital component is subject to Moores law. That hammered home the brilliance of a $4000 SOA outboard crossover. Those speakers will sound the same in 20 years covered by their warranty. That digital crossover gets software updates as long as they keep dropping. Every time you change rooms, change amps, or change dacs you can realign the individual drivers perfectly. You can’t do that with a traditional crossover of any kind that is internal.
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@donavabdear
Power genelecs in atmos action, what are you waiting for? Watch this:
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When I saw that they used Bryston amps to remix Kind of Blue in Atmos at Capitol Records I realized that equipment must be perfect for immersive audio. I think the price is very reasonable and like that you can "bring your own amp" if you already have one and don’t want to buy Bryston. My Active 40’s are about the same size as the Mini-T’s and of course that enhanced the appeal for an immersive setup. I think the bigger Model T’s are great if you want a 2 channels setup but if you have subs and are going to send that bass to the subs the towers aren’t necessary. Having a digital crossover offers all of the DSP advantages plus software updates. In terms of what "audiophiles think" it is not about thinking. Nobody buys a sportscar for the MPG or being practical. It is about amp rolling and the adrenaline rush of putting your own spin on it. Going passive is NOT "logical" as you get crazy more value with active. I like getting the customization from the front end/source components while having the drivers/cabinets/active crossover and amps matched by the speaker designer. I do agree that you can go passive and get good or better SQ but it will cost at least double or more to achieve that AND there is also risk of a mismatch.
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Now I want one, I'll bet the amp is as indestructible as ATC speakers.
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@thespeakerdude
but i also have to accept that a complex (expensive) passive crossover can achieve almost all that an active system can.
Why do you bother making stuff up like this without a link to a reference? You can't even name a speaker with an expensive crossover, prove me wrong ok?
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@thespeakerdude
Like I said, you have no substance, no speakers, and no evidence about your "expensive crossover" claim. You obviously don't know ANY speaker that you are talking about. All you gotta do is post a link to a passive speaker that uses an expensive crossover, that's what you posted so we are all waiting.
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@thespeakerdude
Look, if you want to talk "expensive crossovers" you got a get a clue.
Here is a $4000 a pair of Revel speakers with a crossover that costs less than $20. If you have a clue to a speaker with an "expensive crossover" post it, if you don’t have a clue why bother making stuff up? It simply reveals the truth, you don’t have a system, you don’t have any speakers, and you don’t have any experience with building a system.😢
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@donavabdear
I don’t know the audiophile world yet
When you start auditioning those active systems you will quickly get a feel. As for your BFF all he does is argue. The fact that he can’t recommend a system should tell you the guy is clearly a DIY person and not even a very good one.🤡
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@thespeakerdude
I have several cars in my driveway
I asked you about your AUDIO system at home, but if the best you have is what you have in your cars you can still post it, NP.🔇
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OMG, I'll bet it will take the "ones" to the "plus ones". I hope you can post before and after graphs. I am all for
simpler, more reliable, efficient, consistent and precise active loudspeaker system.
Now you have a matched system, nice.
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We are in a thread on active speakers and thought @lonemountain post was spot on.
@donavabdear-to get back on track audition some active speakers and post your experience. I have shared some candidates, Brad has shared some strategies of all things being equal, go active, now it is up to you and your $200K budget. Any status on the BHK? I just changed up my system a bit and posted in the other thread on atmos.
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@big_green_jelly_bean
Bryston has active speakers with an outboard crossover so you can use any amp you like. Best of both worlds.
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Sure, NP. Post some graphs on your system page when you get the new genelec crossover.
@thespeakerdude
Post some graphs on your system page if you ever get a system.🤥
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@thespeakerdude
I look forward to hearing your speakers in Munich's high-end show in a couple of months. What is the name of your brand?
+1
I'll even settle for a picture 🙄🔇🤡
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No offence @thespeakerdude but you struck out again 🤪:
After examining the data, I found that the Mundorf-designed AMT 23CM1.1-C, as with last month’s Mundorf U80W AMT, definitely exhibits excellent performance, which is what you would expect from a respected high-end home audio manufacturer such as Mundorf.
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@donavabdear
Since posting about that Sunfire 7401 amp I pulled my Carver AV505 out of retirement. My center height, VOG, and rear middle atmos speakers are all passive as their locations would make active too heavy to mount. So, last week-end I retired the 2 amps that were driving them and ran new wires to the Carver. I am a bit shocked it made so much of a difference, especially with the top center channel.Dialogue is super focused and it seems the voices even follow the characters that are speaking on screen, just like someone talking and moving around in a room. I would get that Sunfire 7401 if you can and try it in biamp mode or even with an active crossover like the BAX-1.
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@thespeakerdude
Nothing interferes with that more than someone
Constantly arguing and making up stuff that they can’t back up. My creds are posted in my virtual system along with my in room FR measurements, time to put up or ......🙄🤡
@donavabdear , you posted your system, do you know how to post your FR graph?
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@thespeakerdude
They seem to try their hardest to supply as little information as possible.
What are you talking about? You have supplied 0 information about your system, your speakers. any possible creds and now you wanna complain about providing information. I got a great idea, lets start a speaker company and refuse to disclose how we are different.😮
I just threw a dart at Paradigm and look how much info is available on just this one speaker. Do you even own a speaker?
EVERY company lists competive advantages of their brand everywhere. You must never have shopped for speakers yet.🤡
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@donavabdear
If you look at the pic of my system I have the Paradigm matching active CC below the screen and the passive Paradigm CC above the screen (active would be too heavy for a ceiling mount). When you sandwich a big screen between two CC’s like this the sound seems like it is coming from the center of the screen.
@thespeakerdude is limited to cutting and pasting from other websites like his graph here, maybe he can cut and paste a picture of a CC, that would be impressive. The guy couldn’t even recommend a system with a $200K budget, if you feel like having him "point" somewhere I think you will be lost in 60 seconds LOL.🤡
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You brought up the TV show "Lost" I turned down that show and 3 of my friends worked on it and got fired,
That’s good news for @thespeakerdude , maybe he can post for the opening 🤣
The producers thought you could push some buttons and turn some knobs that would take out anything unwanted on the recording,
I detect a match made in heaven for @thespeakerdude , give him a recommendation from both of us and I'll get him some buttons for the interview.
😂😂😂
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try to name another industry that you can spend $100s of thousands of dollars on pieces that weren't made to fit together.
Freeway design companies for any big city??
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@thespeakerdude
try, to not be a childish ass.
enlighten us with your vast knowledge
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RE: the Atmos "experience" you can’t blame the speakers, the content, or the mix. If your experience sucks you can change it, now, easily.
I use "technology" to change a meh Atmos experience.
Speaker setup with dolby specs, auro-3d specs, or DTS-X specs? check.
Room measurements optimized with acoustic treatments and dsp? Check
Appropriate "upmixer" selected based on the content? Check and double check.
( If your upmixers are sub par check out Auro-3D, Dolby Surround, DTS-Neural X, Sony 360, THX Spatial Audio or legacy upmixers like Audyssey DSX and DTS-Neo-X. If you want more upmix profiles to choose from check out a Yamaha, or Onkyo products which have proprietary codecs. The Logic 16 upmixer from JBL and Arcam products is supposed to be wicked but I haven't tried))
For those of you who are "imagining" what it will be like one day to have an atmos system check out the other threads on atmos here. Or I guess you can keep making stuff up as you go along if you have nothing else to do 🙄
@thespeakerdude , in order to pass a "test" you would need to actually have a stereo. If you want advice about what to buy, please start a build thread. If not, please stop bothering people who actually own gear with your opinions which for all any one can tell, are just made up, cut and paste, from various websites.
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@mattw73 The grills cost extra but they come with a coupon for a dildo, LOL!
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@thyname
He created so many secret identities to pretend a fantasy, in real life he probably drives pretend cars in a pretend house with pretend neighbors. There is clearly something wrong
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