Powered speakers show audiophiles are confused

If you want to audition a pair so you can measure them and post the results for this thread that would be great, just call the dealer or visit a local one.

Do you know what speaker the 708P is based on?? 

@o_holter

Earlier in this thread, thespeakerdude argued

He should be ignored, he argues a lot, has never posted his own system, never recommended a speaker or a system to anyone, pretty much he argues and that’s it. Just trolls in this thread and annoys people who actually have systems of their own.

I tested two pairs of active speakers - Elac am50, and Sony SRS ZX-1, plus a passive pair, Aurum Cantus Leisure 2SE. In all cases the MA-1 lifted the speaker to new heights, even if the match was not optimal

I have had that experience when comparing the JBL Studio 230 (passive) to the JBL 305 (active). The speakers came out around the same time and both use trickle down tech from the M2 monitors. I preferred the $400 Studio 2 driven by a $1000 Carver amp to the $300 305 driven by their internal amp. The bad news for the people that bought the passive setup is it costs more and it could sound worse depending on the amp you choose.

I have not tested more expensive active speakers - there, maybe the story would be different

I would highly recommend the 4329P I just posted. That speaker is based on a studio monitor but customized for home use. Best of both worlds. You will notice the @thespeakerdude started arguing again as soon as I posted something, trolling as usual.

 

 

@o_holter

My main argument

You see what I mean? He doesn’t own them, posts nothing to support his claims like a link to some type of proof, doesn’t recommend anything else, just argues, best to ignore.

The 4329P would be better for a 2 channel system because they have internal dacs, if yiu are going MCH the 708P would likely be better.

@o_holter

Grammy award winning sound engineers use the 708P that @thespeakerdude is arguing about (as usual) while on the road with Bruno Mars, do you think they are "familiar" with them?

“The 708P monitors never deceive me and always make my mix sound bigger,” said Rabold. “The low end is thick and punchy, the midrange is honest and intact, and the highs are not overly bright or deceptively sparkly. There’s no hype or coloration to them, and because of this, I know that what I’m hearing will translate to any environment.”

 

The antagonist websites and members have to attack something to promote themselves as being smarter than everyone. Shameless attacks and hollow as they have nothing else, no system,no speakers, and not much else,

@dabel

OK, if you got a point about active speakers or JBL go for it ...

@donavabdear

Why would a guy with your experience and education be shopping for $25K speakers and tube amps from a killer salesman when you had a full blown atmos system with a L-C-R channel driven by 450W of bespoke power each, 8 surround and height channels driven by 130W of bespoke amplification each, plus two matching 11 inch subs. That is well over 2kw of bespoke amplification + the active crossover + the 2 subs + the 11 speakers for the same price of just two towers from the killer saleman pitching towers and tubes?

What were you thinking??

BTW, if you don’t like Focals you could take that same budget and build a great active atmos setup with neumann, jbl, dynaudio, ATC, etc.

I look at these JBL’s and immediately want to build another HT just to house them, three 708P as L-C-R ($2K each biamped with 500 watts) matched with eight 703P ($1100 each biamped with 370 watts) brings a system in around $15K, for 11 speakers and over 4.5kw of bespoke amplification. With a $25K budget you have $10K left over for subs.

Now if you want a passive setup all good, JBL has the HDI series but expect to pay a lot more for the additional amps and get a lot less power.

 

Can anyone guess which type of system (active or passive) this pic represents?

I know your next question, why do people waste so much money on mismatched amps and speakers. I can’t hide the elephant in the room,

because its fun to roll amps and tinker 🤘

@donavabdear

I’ve put about $500k in sound equipment

Is there any purchase you made with hindsight that you wouldn’t make again? I’ll bet that killer sales guy is either very happy or very sad, depending on your business relationship. I love $$$ systems and am very happy for you.

the best Focal speakers they had at upscale audio

It sometimes takes a bit of shopping to find what you like. It is a shame you didn’t stick to your OP there are some GREAT places to shop in LA for gear. I guess you wanted to check out the "dark" side and man, you chomped off quite a bite at $200K.

every studio when I was coming up had JBLs

like any other big company they have a line on the very best cutting edge tech

The JBL’s got better since you were coming up. The M2 monitor changed everything. I wanted the M2’s but needed a desktop system and they wouldn’t fit. When the M2 came out JBL had two lines of speakers that used trickle down tech from the M2’s (the 705P wasn’t out yet). I auditioned the active LSR305 and the passive Studio 230’s. No other speakers prior to those used the trickle down tech from the M2. When I added a Parasound preamp and power amp the 230’s sounded great. When I changed for a Sunfire pre and Carver amp it was like nothing I could compare to. The sweet spot, the imaging, the soundstage, I still have them and built another system around them in the man cave.

That’s why when your Sony headphone amp sounds great

The story behind the Signature line is exactly that, the CEO opened up the budget and challenged the engineers to see what they could accomplish if they focused on simply building the best. They took about 5 years and got it right, all the way down to using silver solder and Kimber cables internally.

Also the more I work on my Genelec system the better it gets.

See? You know that going in, no surprise here. What you did on your passive rig was I guess "different".

I disagreed about with Brian the owner of the mastering room

Uhhhh, does Brian have very many clients? That’s what matters right? What the client wants?

This is why mixers don’t use expensive speakers,

The Genelec’s weren’t expensive? 😥

As for your HT components I think it is an issue of taste, not really an issue of value. We both had different strategies. I followed the strategy you laid out in the OP. I actually own both the active and passive version of the Paradigm Reference Studio 20. The passive version can never get the bass extension of the active version no matter what amp I use. In order to get both speakers to sound competitive I had to spend more on the amp and the speaker cables that I mated the passive 20’s with than the entire cost of the active speaker. I don’t need all the racks and wires too, more budget freed up. Fortunately I saved money in the process.

Here is my million dollar question (I mean half million dollar question😁)
Dollars to donuts, where does an audio dollar stretch further, active or passive? You have both systems, what do you think?

 

@donavabdear 

BTW, you did ask me to recommend a solution to get tube like sound from solid state, and blew them off because they were inexpensive right?

For review, your BHK cooks tubes like bacon, or at least more than you expected. You threw down and said, bring me an amp that gives the tubes without being the tubes. I gave you three solutions so far and you have talked, talked, talked, and what?

1) Get the Sunfire 7401 with the ability to biamp your Paradigms and produce a tube like sound.

2) Get the Add-Powr unit of your choice for a 30 day audition and see if it can provide that tube like quality.

3) Hit the bid on the BHK hybrid and get a REAL high powered tube amp from da man himself like @ozzy did, The Carver Raven 350. (note, 10 year warranty on da tubes, no more nickle and diming on replacements)

I don’t mean to bust your chops but did you not throw down?

@donavabdear 

Yes I did ask an you gave me some choices

What are friends for?

but my BHKs are about 8 times more expensive and are hybrid. 

All I know is you said they weren't cutting it, price is not the issue.

 everyone says their equipment compares with more expensive equipment 

First of all "everyone" is stretching it a bit. Second of all "everyone" says that about a lot of very fine companies, take your pick.

it’s hybrid which is a must a tube front end is the most pleasing sound to me 

So, your entire throw down was based on confusion? You "thought" you wanted a new amp but really didn't want a new amp? And you thought audiophiles were confused... LOL

it really really sounds great that is so frustrating

We have all been there, I got nothing. You can either "change it up" or "suck it up".

I hate tubes just love the way they sound

No, you hate change as I already provided 3 alternatives to keep what you like and ditch what you hate.

 I’m fighting for all I can get. 

In order to win the fight you need to use your eyes and not just your ears. When will you post your measurements? See my virtual system for examples.

I don’t have any big problems in my room because of its shape and size.

That's a GREAT start in your fight.

I told you how I have to do a pretty big upgrade on my system

Again, what are friends for, you talk, talk, talk, I think you need to change it up too.

I think I’m going to get a good preamp some new subs and maybe new speakers.

This is what build threads are for and you did nothing about that so far. Isn't the Lyngdorf good enough?

Yes I would love to invest in speakers and amps 

Everyone here does that too, you came to the right place. Before you go back and see another killer salesman I encourage you to ask for ideas from the membership.

I don’t think they exist with very few exceptions at or about the $100 to $150k speaker level.

Now who is dealing in "audiophile mythology"? This is fiction and I hope you don't drill holes in your wallet based on "mythology".

but in audiophile equipment it is another animal and it’s not always possible to audition equipment

I can say with confidence that very few members or audiophiles in general would spend more than even $10K without an audition or a 30 day return policy. Doing so is a very SERIOUS mistake. If you want we can start a 12 step program for you. 😁

you just have to hope and ask more experienced people.

No, you have to NOT listen to other people, you HAVE to listen to the stuff you want, in your room, with a good return policy if you don't like it.

I just bought a new Martin Logan amp to test out with my passive surround speakers. It comes with a 60 day return policy and if it don't fit my needs it goes back. Doesn't matter if its $2 or $200K that is a win/win. Martin Logan sells more stuff because they take the risk, even if some gear gets sent back. I get the win because I can check it out at no risk. (Martin Logan is owned by Paradigm and I think the amp has Anthem DNA, I know it has ARC 😀)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think we have members with that combo, I would start a new thread and get opinions from owners. If I had that budget I would choose active and my first stop would be a Bryston dealer. They have active speakers with the BAX outboard crossover. You could use Bryston amps, tubes, Mac, whatever. If you want everythibg to match you could replace the BAX crossover with the SP4 processor which Bryston can also use as an outboard crossover. I think going passive is going to be a let down for you. However, if you go mac/sonus obviously well matched.

https://bryston.com/active-loudspeakers/https://bryston.com/active-loudspeakers/

FYI

The Bryston Mini T Active system, featuring the BAX-1, a 24B³ amplifier and a pair of Mini T Active loudspeakers will start shipping in Q2 2018 with an RRP of US$17,690.

But there’s more:

For those who prefer a 40″-tall 3-way floorstander, Bryston will begin shipping the Middle T Active system (US$22,230) in Q2 2018. Once again, the BAX-1 will execute the crossover whilst each of the 24B³ ‘s six channels will power (in each speaker) 2 x 8″ bass drivers, a 5.25″ midrange driver and a 1″ tweeter.

And for the biggest of bellies, the Model T active system separates out the 24B3’s role into a pair of (more powerful) 21B3 monoblocks to drive a pair of 53″-tall 3-way floorstanders, each with 3 x ‘high excursion’ 8″ bass units, 2 x 5.25″ midrangers and two 1″ tweeters. Price: US$33,770.

@thyname +1 🤣

@donavabdear 

This is the Bryston active system and if you are getting a L-C-R combo I would get the mini T's, not the Middle T's in this video:

 

If you use the Bryston 16 channel SP4 processor I don’t think you need to get the BAX, they can crossover from the processor (ask the dealer to be sure).

This would be a completely matched system with the active or passive speakers of your choice which I think would be an upgrade over the mac/SF combo, even though it would cost less. (I would not do passive at all, the active is in another league as I’m sure the dealer will demo):

When (the SP4 is) mated with a selection of Bryston amplifiers and loudspeakers, you will experience a sound system like no other.

https://bryston.com/preamps/sp4/

This is Meridians assault on cost no object and I think they will compete with anything else you audition:

 

The Dynaudio only offers wireless as a convenience, you would wire them for best performance:

 

You are mistaken, you don't audition, you need to get out more.

Meridian

Bryston

Dynaudio

JBL Synthesis

 

I don't think you can find a speaker that measures better than the JBL M2, you need to audition it just to set the JBL bar. It used in both studios and the Synthesis line of high end home theater:

 

To dismiss these because of the price is a mistake, matched with those 900 watt monoblocks you should listen to compare.

https://bryston.com/model-t-active/

@donavabdear , in this hobby the law of diminishing returns kicks in hard. You will get 90% of the performance of what ever is at the top of your pyramid for something like half of the price or less. This is why you need to compare different price points and brands. I would only use the matching amps that come paired with the speakers in the auditions.

The proper etiquette is just tell them the truth upfront, this is a community of people that are passionate, they will likely be upfront with you as well and most people in the business I met want you to be happy. Even if you don't buy something now you might go back later, change your mind, or refer a friend.

For anyone reading this thread that is looking at all ranges of budget this is a good video on powered speakers over $1000:

 

FYI

 

At around $20K all in the JBL M2 is less money than the Steinways, the Meridian, and even the Bryston, but are those other speakers better (especially $80K+ better)? Diminishing returns are a real thing to consider. Once I got the JBL 230's that use trickle down tech from the M2's hooked up to the right electronics I lost all desire to change. Are their better speakers? Of course, but I just didn't feel the need to change anything as I love what they do. The M2's have influenced every speaker coming out of Harman (all brands) since they became available:

 

PS- You could also pair the M2 with Mark Levinson amps instead of the crowns to take them up a notch:

The pro version of the M2 is packaged with Crown amps rated at 600 watts per channel plus a separate crossover. The whole package for two speakers costs $20,000.

The $46,000 consumer package shown at the CEDIA Expo combines a pair of M2s with four Mark Levinson No 531H 300-watt monoblock amps and an SDEC 3000 digital EQ/crossover. The SDEC 3000 also allows an installer to do room correction on the speakers.

FWIW, even the JBL 230’s are like a mirror, what you put in is what they reflect. The slightest change upstream is reflected downstream, probably worth the amp upgrade' See if you can audition the M2’s with the ML amps. If not you will still be pleased with the crowns.

I’m going to listen before I go with my big system +1

I auditioned a Mac MB-50 streamer with Paradigm speakers and an anthem amp at a local dealer. It sounded great. There will be no bad sound in any of the stuff you audition. We are talking an "end game" speaker and after living with active speakers for so long I can tell the difference with passives. It is like coming off the line quickly in NASCAR, actives have that jump factor, instant on power for me. Plus you get MORE for your $$$ going active. HOWEVER, I would gladly place that mac/sf setup in my living room, I just couldn’t part with $100 G’s when I knew I could get that Meridian system instead or five M2’s for bed channels in a home theater .

 

I am laughing because those monoblocks with tubes/solid state for biamping is the same concept Bob Carver came up with his current/voltage connections in his Sunfire amps. Granted these Mac amps are much better but Bob was waaaay ahead of the game as he conceptualized this more than 20 years ago and for a LOT less money.

even if Macintosh owns Sonus Fabre I don’t think these units are made for each other. 

I see those Mac amps in the video, giant mono blocks, huge amounts of power. Of course it makes you want that amp, who wouldn't. You got bit by the Sonos Fabers, wonderful. I think that is a wonderful combo for anyone wanting a two channel setup.

But, it isn't active, it isn't inexpensive, and not really matched like Mac speakers would be. For an end game speaker I would have to have the amp, the crossover, the drivers (ideally individually powered in an active setup), and the room all match. If you want to use your BHK both th M2 and the Bryston active use outboard crossovers, NP.

The Macintosh amps are perfect for bi-amping but what if I bought the Macintosh 900 then also used my BHK monos for tri-amping the Sonus Faber Aida

It would NOT be what you say you want...matched. I have no idea how you fit BHK into a matched system, no BHK speakers. Your professional instincts KNOWS what you should do. You are entering play time after years of focused listening. I would stick with what you know works for BIG purchases and then play with tweaks like power and cables.

Remember to audition those flagship Meridians in addition to whatever else you audition. 

Also Kota so well said this is playtime after 35 years of being totally focused on the most minute details of sound and now I want an amusement park of enjoyable listening.

I get that in your posts, balance both. Be a pro in your shopping experience and an amusement park in your listening experience.

Ok moment of truth in our friendship

After going through 22 pages in this thread now you tell me?😁

As for cables, I get the best bang for the buck addressing power(conditioners, cables, harmonics), then digital, then interconnects, then speaker cables. I start from the power first, and then the sources, then the speakers. Any constriction in the front of the chain impacts everything that comes after it. ⚡

I think has played a lot with upmixing of stereo to ATMOSI.e. how much control do you have over the ratio of power from the original two mains to the other channels which I assume is a simulated ambience?

In Atmos upmixing you set it and forget it. With Auro-3D upmixing you have precise controls. You set the size of your room, how dynamic you want the height channels to be (from 1-15), and the type of content you are playing back.

Dolby does have one setting called "center spread" which you need to engage for music upmixing so everything doesn't get dumped in the center channel.

When I want an amusement park I think of going to a club. All of the immersive upmixers can recreate a club like experience in your room. Set your processor to upmix in Dolby Surround, make sure center spread is turned on in settings, then check out a mix like this one from mixcloud. If you want to check out just one song listen to the last 8 minutes of this mix, with upmix engaged and crank it. If you start from the beginning its great too. I prefer mixes to playlists:

 

Some music just lends itself to be better upmixed, when I am done with the club and want to chill I can groove for hours with a mix like this amapiano music. You won’t get the same experience with two channel, you might like it, but not the same.

 

and if you like old school clubbing amusement parks, so many great songs in mixes like this one that I knew, but had forgotten about. Upmixed in immersive is better than AM radio back in the day. Like hearing them for the first time:

 

@donavabdear 

What I don’t understand about cables... 

Will never be learned in a chat room. You have all that education, pick a vendor that seems you can relate to, and start auditioning. Stick with what you use in the studio, they can't be that bad. Go back to the thread on Add-Power and post a question for @cohsystms , you will be happy you did.

 

Another winning active speaker, PMC. You could buy this system in the morning, install it in the afternoon, and have "Best of Show" sound in your living room that night. People that are whining and moaning that they can’t find good active speakers are not looking very hard. PMC makes both passive and active speakers so if you want to keep your toob amp go for it:

 

@donavabdear

Because powered speakers and even synergistic design philosophies aren’t available at a the level I want

Put these on your audition list:

 

 

 

Of all the people in this thread yakking it seems like @kota1 and @brianlucey are the only ones that have their end game systems. It is a bit shocking that in this thread the consumer end game system is digital/active and the pro end game system is analog/passive. Who saw that coming??You need to find what you like, then dive in. If you don’t know what you like, go shopping. You don’t find your end game system (or for @thespeakerdude ANY system) in a chat room.

@donavabdear , you gotta get L-C-R channels that have matching surrounds and height channels or you will be back in this thread moaning. Tell PS Audio to keep the BHK, time to change it up. For that kind of scratch you can can do better.

If you like jazz apple music has a lot of GREAT Atmos mixes of classic artists. Check out Oscar Peterson’s "We Take Requests" or any of these:

 

@donavabdear

You are the only member who went to the Academy awards for the work in sound you did. You probably have very good trained listening skills. Why you like to choose speakers without listening to them is about as ridiculous as buying a six figure car without a test drive. When you audition listen to the flagship model first to set the bar and save time. Then compare the other stuff in that brand to the flagship (like you did with Paradigm). PMC has custom install speakers if you want to focus on room design.:

https://pmc-speakers.com/products/custom-installation/ci-series

Right up your alley too:

 

Anyone reading this thread who does NOT have an immersive system yet needs to watch the above video. This is NOT hyperbole. Those guys at Capitol Records went back to the ORIGINAL master tapes from their vault, listened to them and raised the bar. If you listen to the description of the engineer at :30 he says that an atmos mix makes the entire room a soundfield. I would say that the entire room becomes a speaker, its like the entire walls, the ceiling, EVERYTHING gets pressurized. When you throw ACTIVE speakers, into a well treated room, calibrated with a good DSP it is WOW.

@donavabdear , you don’t need six figure speakers to achieve this when doing immersive audio. I would take a room like this all day compared to a room with two sound cannons pointed at your head, but that’s just me.

Seven Bryston Active mini-T’s set up equidistant in the room with 4 matching active mini’ts on tall stands as front and rear heights. forget about it. I would NOT want the Model-T active towers and a lot of smaller speakers. In my setup I have 4 perfectly matched active 40’s as L-R-LS and RS, the matching center, and 6 matching active 20’s as wides (the 40’s wouldn’t fit) and FH, RH. You get that perfect of a match, throw in a tightly calibrated room and KABOOM, it is a, how you call it, amusement park.

DON’T get a jumble, match your bed channels with the exact same speakers if you can, same with height channels. You can make a great system with passive speakers but for me, active makes a better matched system like this.

Remember, the Bryston's use an outboard crossover so you can roll amps to your hearts content. Hook up your BHK toobs to the tweeters and those Bryston monoblocks to the woofers, whatever.

You can use an outboard crossover so you can amp roll, no excuses for the crowd that is afraid of internal amps:

 

@secretguy

For the price of $100K+ I would rather have a matched 7.1.4 system of bryston active speakers with bespoke amps of my choice than a pair of Sonus Fabers and a pair of Macintosh/Audio Research monoblocks, YMMV.

The Bryston Active Mini-T’s aren’t any where near six figures and this is for the entire system and the size makes them ideal for a MCH setup.:

The speakers boast a nearly perfect neutral sonic perspective and this, along with the aforementioned incredible revealing attribute serves to place a well recorded small assemble slightly in front of the system, thus producing a striking ”live” illusion, but without any of the hardness and in-your-face elements, often experienced in systems that project the sound forward.

I found that there is little, if any, way to improve the performance.

http://innerearmag.com/reviews/speakers/Audio_Observer_Bryston_Active_System.shtml

Canadiens are good at speakers (Paradigm/Bryston) , they got get their marketing guys from NYC in the future.

but working with object based information means you are creating images between the speakers

You do that in 2 channel stereo too, like a phantom center channel, a soundstage that extends beyond the plane of the speakers.

so if you are in a completely symmetrical listening position the images can’t have much depth

In my room the wall and ceiling seem like speakers, the room is pressurized, and images are content dependent. I posted that amapiano music for a reason. When you upmix it you get imaging that you have never heard in stereo. It is the second mix of the three I posted and you need to listen to about 30 minutes or so. Use the 7.1.4 genelec setup at up between 70-80 db upmixed in dolby surround and see. Movies are completley different depending on the content. Listen to or watch Mad Max, same volume level or higher and you will see how the audio objects follow those cars. Use the genelecs as that is a perfectly matched system as long as you have the speakers positioned per atmos specs.

Movies are much further ahead in surround mixing

This is why you use upmixers. I’m not limited by a bad atmos mix when I can switch to auro 3d, or the DTS upmixer. You can use these for movies or music. All of that amapiano music I listen to upmixed. Today I listened to Kind of Blue in the atmos mix. Unless someone told you it was atmos you wouldn’t know, the engineers kept the musicians in front of you, they didn’t mix heavy handed. Then you get a guy like Moby and his mixes are boincing around everywhere. So if you don’t like a mix that is what upmixers are for.

setting up surround music mixes is disturbing to your brain because

No, remember, YOUR brain is not average, it has been trained to focus on channel based or you got fired, I don’t know how much experience you have in immersive. I agree its early days but I have found great content and mediocre content. I upmix bad content for my "palate".

From a review of Kind of Blue:

When a high-res stereo version of “So What” was played for comparison, the sound seemed flat and “locked” to the front speakers, with little sense of height or depth.

PMC and Capitol Records worked with the Miles Davis estate to secure the three mono master tapes used to create the new recordings. (Both Davis’ son Erin and nephew and drummer, Vince Wilburn, were in attendance at the demo.) The playback system in Munich mirrored the original setup in Capitol Studios where the remixes were created: 3 PMC Fenestria towers up front for LCRs, 10 PMC Wafer on-wall speakers for surrounds, another 6 Wafers used as overheads, all of it driven by Bryston electronics.

Eventually surround music may become a genera unto its self and become just fun but people won’t have real connection to the music unless some standards are made fairly soon.

Do you know what John Storyck said about this? He said immersive music will surpass movies because all you need is headphones, not a video monitor.