Powered speakers show audiophiles are confused

I wonder about a company that can go with a wireless option and still sell such a cheep speaker

I have these types of speakers/amps/preamps around the house as part of the Playfi ecosystem. When I am on the patio I run them in wireless mode. When in the LR I connect via ethernet and RCA inputs.

If you wonder about Dynaudio speakers they sell passive (The Confidence line for example), active that aren’t wireless, and active that offer both wired and wireless connections. Take your pick.

A few things confusing in the audiophile world:

I find just one thing "confusing" and the rest a matter of personal taste.

The MOST confusing thing is why would someone invest $$$$ in speakers and practically nothing in the room and room treatments because most of what you actually hear from that speaker is reflected sound, not direct sound.

This is fine of course, but what if you did the opposite? Spent $$$ on the room like @fleschler did and a more modest set of speakers. Would @fleschler like to weigh in on that one?

http://www.filmsound.org/terminology/direct.htm

but in blind tests no one can tell the difference,

That is a  dead end discussion because people buy what sounds good to them, not what won the blind test shootout. If it turns your crank fine, go get an ABX Comparator from Van Alstine and go for it.

The things I mentioned in confusion are not scientifically valid 

See the above, no one makes buying decisions based on scientifically valid. You mention beryllium tweeters, it seems that mattered "to you". Fine. It hasn't been blind tested against every other tweeter material in the world, so what?

I think there is some science behind the fact people generally prefer a smooth flat in room frequency response. You can look that one up to confirm.

@thespeakerdude 

I think you can make almost any room sound good

Like yours for example? LOL 🤔

@donavabdear

I know people don’t buy on scientific specs

Actually there is a group like this at ASR, not my thing but for some hobbyists its fine.

when you go into a boutique stereo store there is pressure to appear that you enjoy the finer things in life

No, it depends on the store. I recently went into a store like this to buy a replacement remote for my Marantz, the guy just gave it to me! Immediately I became a fan.

Sorry brother, one of the golden rules of acoustics and studio architecture is that no one prefers a flat room.

I am sure you have a link? I don’t want to go there in this thread but the white papers are available if you look (Toole, Olive, AES, etc).

The speaker DSPs put out a flat curve,

No, most speakers that I have seen vary.

So, after all of this conjecture do you even know what the FR in your room is?

I mentioned it before but John Storyk said himself that flat studios sound bad, so he doesn’t build them he’s been the top studio designer for going on 40 years 

This is where you are getting into the weeds, if you want a "Storyk Curve", build one, NP. Where is the link to the Storyk paper published in a peer reviewed journal citing his research?

Now, what DID you build? A "storyk curve", a "Harman curve", a "Lyngdorf curve". 

Hopefully not a "Titanic" curve. :)
 

Sure, right after you give me links to all the peer reviewed articles you have published in your field.

Please see the "Kota curve" above 😎, when you get that right, everything else follows. You can see my "references" in my virtual system.

Check out the "Kota Curve" , I received a compliment recently from a professional acoustics engineer with many years in the business on the UNCORRECTED curve, even before DSP he said it was very good and it showed I paid attention to details:

+1

The predominant preference is a flat on axis frequency response and a downwards sloping room response. Some of the art of acoustics and absolutely science is ensuring you can do both.

@donavabdear 

From a psychoacoustics view, the on-axis response does need to be accurate to properly portray positioning .... at least if a recording was made simulating human hearing. Without conditioning, what is the correct room response? It would be almost impossible to determine as you would need unconditioned test subjects. 

You are still very new to the hobby. If you like this type of research check out ASR, you will find many adherents there. 

There are very few on the ASR forums, in my experience, that are highly experienced in acoustics and psychoacoustics.

100% true, however they LOVE to wrap themselves in psychobabble and consider themselves experts (in their own mind at least).

Maybe @donavabdear could help them out, at least he would find a like minded audience.

BTW, you know who has a GREAT chapter in their book on the topic? Both Earl Geddes and Tomlinson Holman.

I think both you guys should get the THX guy’s book, even if it is familiar territory. Check out chapter two in this one. Read chapter five, ten, and twelve too, even though its a different topic:

There are probably few books on speakers and acoustics I have not read over the last 20 years and I would not be surprised if not over 500 papers.

If you are "all that" give me links to what you have PUBLISHED in peer reviewed journals, I got google for the rest. I never saw a bibliography that cited @thespeakerdude as a source.

As for the gurus in the industry I didn’t dis Storyk and if his research helps ME improve SQ great, give me a link.

BTW, of all the papers you read did you get any catalogs? Did you finally get some speakers???

His website was basically a brochure online, give me something that is research.

From his website:

"None of this has anything to do with the internal room acoustics, which is a totally different animal. That’s what we do on the inside of rooms…including treatments, panels, diffusers, absorbers, reflectors, scattering elements and changing the geometry."

John Storyk: I don’t think video is going to grow as much, but immersive audio will. The reason is that four billion people listen to 98 percent of their music on earbuds. They don’t walk around with TV screens. And they are definitely not going to walk around with those stupid AR goggles. There is plenty of time for audio, but one has to be in front of a screen for video. That will always limit it.

+1, it seems me and John agree on the important stuff already 😎

@thespeakerdude 

While you are at it, perhaps you can work on reading comprehension and googling how not to be a jerk online.

Don't blame me for putting yourself out there. You claim you are all about speakers and you don't even know how to put a system together, you admitted as much to @donavabdear. You claim you read everything on audio but the impression I get is you are a DIY guy sitting in his basement with an ipad and some duct tape. If you didn't say a bunch of stuff you can't prove it wouldn't invite the scrutiny.

@mastering92

Thanks for the kind words. I don’t have a youtube channel, however the video that helped me a lot was the series on acoustics that had Anthony Grimmani as a guest. He was kind enough to correspond by e-mail and really helped me with implementing his "acoustic recipe". The recipe was a good starting point and then you roll up your sleeves and start hanging products. Auralex was the vendor I chose and they were great to work with. I used the Dolby specs for most of my speaker placement. For the size of my room I divided up the room using the fibonacci ratios for seating and treatment placement.

The MLP is at the 50% point exactly between my front and back wall so those speakers are equidistant from the MLP. Front speakers with tweeters at ear level, the bottom of the screen starts at eye level.

If you look at my ceiling you’ll see absorption in the front third of the room, at the mid point I have those diffusors, "geofusors" based on the geodesic dome, that are filled with polyfil so they double as bass traps. At the two thirds point between front and back wall I have my surround and top middle surround speakers. Then 75% of the distance from the front wall I have my PJ and the "acoustic cloud" hanging which is a 3D diffusor. The second row of seating is just below it.

The panel placement on the walls are asymmetrical. If I have an absorber on one side wall (yin) it is mirrored by a diffusor on the opposite wall (yang). Then each side wall is interleafed (absorption, diffusion, absorption, etc)

The panels are also placed at the same fib ratios, 1/3 from the front wall, 50%, 66% and 75%. This worked for me because of the length of my room, for a longer room you would need to add more rows of seating, have a bigger screen, etc.

@donavabdear 

generally tube amps don't have near the power of SS amps of course,

If you jump on this before it is gone you will not regret:

See page 4 about how to get a tube sound quality from this SS amp and page 13 on how to biamp with an external crossover and the specs on pg 18,

 in the manual HERE:

You can use any amp with an external crossover like this:

The ship that sailed before getting the acoustics right:

@thespeakerdude

" I am mainly standing on the shoulders of others answering that. That is deep into psychoacoustics."

@donavabdear 

"Even your last reason that proper bass frequencies give a musical foundation in harmonic ratios doesn’t really hold water either"

@thespeakerdude 

When you get a pic of your room posted, a list of your components and your measurements we can discuss, NP.

@donavabdear 

That wasn't the Titanic, that was the HMS "Beryllium" that sailed with an untreated "deck" LOL. 

The point is no matter how much you spend on equipment its the room that "floats the boat", bad room can be the Titanic, good room  can be the "Love Boat" LOL

@donavabdear 

Your Paradigm Persona 9H bi-amped with 800 watts of SOA power will solve a lot of problems you didn't even know you had (harmonics, bass, whatever).

Going once, going twice:

@donavabdear

My BHK 300 mono blocks are hybrid amps tube on the input and MOFSET on the output they are pretty good (about $15k) or so, likewise my 9hs are hybrid the mid and high frequency are passive and the bass has 4x 8inch drivers that are powered by an amp with peak power of 2700W.

This is the audiophile trap you speak about in the OP. The $$$ is fine, I am sure its a fine value for what it is. If you can drop $15K on an amp $2500 shouldn’t be a roadblock, I think it will be a better match for the Paradigms. Remember I own Paradigms that are powered internally by Anthem amps (active) and have already bi-amped the passive Studio Reference Paradigm’s I own with a Carver amp that was a precursor to this one. The Sunfire amps have headroom that won’t quit, dynamics and a soundstage that open a Paradigm speaker up like I have never experienced, and are exemplative of finesse, in my system. I hope you get the opportunity to compare.

A lot of attractive diffusors on Etsy:

Consider a panel DIY kit:

@thespeakerdude 

The OP wants to DIY and he is new to the hobby. He is learning about WAF too, OK? 

IMO he should outsource the project to a recognized "brand" for his studio  to get some creds, but so what? If its fun he can use legos.

@thespeakerdude

I get the impression the OP is here for entertainment, he is baiting both of us and clearly has not taken much in the way of advice. You saw the pic I posted of the Titanic right? That is where this thread is going, good luck with bailing it out.

Do you think someone who is going to have a movie mixed will use a guy, any guy, who built his studio on the advice of a chat room? No way, you build a studio with someone who has creds and then you market it (this world class studio was designed by ______.) The OP married a $15K amp with $35K speakers and didn’t like it. In the same thread that he proposed ACTIVE speakers for many good reasons he didn't use them and now he’s stuck. Tubes burning out, bass no good, and getting advice on how to spend $200K from this thread??

Might as well use Etsy, did you SEE the stuff? A lot of it is art impersonating as diffusors I know, but it pops. At least his wife will love it😍

If you like traditional, the brochure for the bamboo diffusors I use are posted in my virtual system, but these look much nicer IMO. I got Geofusors (PERFECT for immersive audio) backfilled with polyfill so they double as bass traps on the ceiling and they work mounted on the walls too:

The GeoFusor imparts a more neutral spectral balance to the room while revealing a more three dimensional soundstage (width and depth). Also evident is improved separation and placement of sounds in the image of a recording from left to right and front to back.

https://auralex.com/diffusion-testing-data-geofusor-tfusor/

simply move on.

To ACTIVE speakers like you said in the OP (less money too), these have the Beryllium tweeters you like:

Paradigm? It’s not the electronics, simply move on.

+1- he knew he should have used active speakers from the get go and got side tracked.

Hit the bid on the passive speakers that didn't get the bass right, the buzzing subs, the amps that burn tubes so fast you can cook bacon on them, the speaker wire and make bank.

Now you got funds for the ACTIVE Focals and the room treatments (wife approved variety of course).

Keep the Genelecs.

Focal both pioneered and perfected the beryllium tweeter design. Incredibly light and rigid, beryllium is said to offer a faster, more linear transient response than titanium or aluminum designs. Its only real downside is that it’s poisonous if ingested, so no licking the tweeters… and no, you’re not supposed to touch them, either!

The Trio6 Be is a triamplified active design. There’s a 200 W Class G amp for the 8” driver, a 150 W Class G amp for the 5” driver, and a 100W Class AB amp on the tweeter. The Trio6 Be has a range of 35 Hz to 40 kHz with a 115 dB SPL.

You couldn’t do this type of amplification in a passive speaker for this much money. It would be crazy triamping with 450 watts per speaker and an outboard crossover.

https://recordingmag.com/resources/featured-reviews/focal-trio6-be/

Hit the bid on the passive speakers that didn't get the bass right....

Now you got funds for the ACTIVE Focals and the room treatments (wife approved variety of course).
Keep the Genelecs. ✔

I know the best new concert and studio speakers are internally powered there are great technical reasons to design a speaker and an amp synergistically, this concept is much more important to sound quality than the vibration systems we often buy.

@donavabdear 

What part of your OP don't you understand? You spent $$$ on passive chasing IDK what and you are chasing your tail in this thread about problems.

@m-db nailed it, time to move on.

I proposed TWO active systems in this thread, the Meridian and the Focal (with your beryllium tweeters).

You should have just followed your own advice 😫

first was to get an idea of how audiophiles were embedded in silly mythology

You are the arbiter of silliness?? Its been tried before by the engineering crowd, LOL.

I thought it was a given that everyone knew that amplifiers and speakers should be made for each other

Most members here agree, why is that silly?

the second idea was that since of course powered speakers are superior to randomly partnered speakers and amps

That is where you seem to be adopting the silly ways you protest about. I am not the arbiter of how people choose what they buy, I just see buying speakers with subwoofers in them and then buying... more subwoofers as wasteful.

Welcome to the silly audiophile world, call it addictive, crazy, nonsensical. I am not sub shaming you. However if you would have stayed in your lane (powered speakers=not silly) it would have been better (no buzzing subs, no tube frying amps, no problema )

I like the recommendation of cashing in your chips, chalking it up a weak moment of "silliness" as you entered this insane hobby and getting back to your OP.

Focal sopra N°3  speakers I went to Upscale Audio in So. Cal. and listened with some tube amps

That combo is something I would NOT buy for myself, for others YMMV.

ACTIVE, look at the system I posted, maybe at a local Guitar Center they have a pair??

"I know the best new concert and studio speakers are internally powered"

"the Focal sopra N°3 speakers I went to Upscale Audio in So. Cal. and listened with some tube amps"

@donavabdear

Why did you start this thread?

It seems passive speakers are what is confusing for @donavabdear , not active. Every problem he has listed in this thread is related to his passive setup.

So, why start this thread?

I was exploring mythology in audio,

You were geeking out, we all do it, NP.

I had a unique position that I had just weeks previously been in recording sessions with the vocalist in maybe the best recording studio in the world

You should call them and see if you can move in and use their system, problem solved.

the most famous recording engineer in the world

If you tell me he has tube amps then I get why you were geeking out

I spoke to the guy who personally sold more Focal speakers than anyone in the world

Ahhh I see the first misstep, you didn’t meet just a salesman, you met a real killer and he saw your wallet comng from a mile away. I hope you didn’t tell him you came from that studio, all he heard from that point on was a cash register.

I was wrong about my purchase because I fell into the trap of believing the mythology.

You didn’t fall in, you jumped in like everyone does with few exceptions. I still think you should hit the bid with your passives and get that same salesman to show you the active setup I posted and I bet he wont. The two towers you auditioned ar $25K. The setup I posted is $25K all in for everything. If you were in sales what would you be pitching? Duh!

@thespeakerdude 

To make a good active speaker, you still need to start with an acoustically good speaker.

If I have $40K and want a home theater of active speakers what would "acoustically good" system would YOU recommend? 

@donavabdear

I was wrong about my purchase

+1- As you make bad purchases inevitably ask your self if you were starting over would you still buy that same component. If the answer is no you should sell it immediately, no sense being miserable. The opposite happens too, you have something you like and sell it for an "upgrade" and then miss what you sold so bad you have "sellers remorse".

--it happens ☹

JL subs there and the CR-1 is an analog crossover, it's actually a very cool piece of gear you may be interested in, look it up it is a crossover between the stereo subs and the home theater subs, and LFE channels, it's a one of a kind unit and I'm surprised you don't own one.

I don't doubt that I would like one but I love my Sunfire sub. Maybe if I need another one in the future. The sub on my "watch" list is the Paradigm Millenia sub (wall mount) so I can run it high on the wall near my height channels to try some localized bass from above the listening area for immersive audio.

@donavabdear

Do you see the connection between the headphones and the headphone amp being made by the same company and speakers being powered by amps that have been made for them?

Yes, I own the Sony Signature line up headphone amp. IDK if they would work for doing mixes,, but I love what they do for casual/critical listening. The Signature amp is surprising me on so many levels, the headphone amp sounds great with both my balanced and unbalanced headphones, the DAC and the DSD remastering engine is like sonic alchemy, turning any type of track (lead) into DSD (gold). The Sony Signature Lineup amp/headphones/source/active speakers are purpose built and YES, that is the way to go.

https://www.sonypremiumhome.com/signature-series/

@thespeakerdude

As a general statement, @donavabdear , no passive speaker and amplifier are made for each other. Some may claim that, but I think that would be a steaming pile of BS.

Wrong again @thespeakerdude , the steaming BS is your shallow knowledge around speakers and amps. When a company makes both amps and speakers you DON’T think they are made to match?? What a load of "steaming BS".

Try checking out this Canadian company called Bryston:

https://bryston.com

or this America company called McInosh:

or this British company called Meridian:

So, a CEO walks into a board meeting and says he is taking the company in a new direction, let’s build stuff that doesn’t match? No.
So the guys at Macintosh made a mistake? OK, let’s go with that.

Let’s take JBL, yes they make boomboxes and stuff at the low end. They have a separate line called JBL Synthesis:

I don’t know how you believe they just go by "yeah, whatever’ and then just throw it out to the marketing guys to spin it. Yes, they design it to match:

@thespeakerdude 

This is a very good matched system, I suggest you start reading some new research, the stuff you are subscribing to is deadwood:

@donavabdear 

@thespeakerdude I'm sorry for even making you think of that.

I like JBL and use their headphones in the office and Studio 2 line in the man cave.

This is a "one and done" active solution for the "audio challenged" that don’t seem to be able or want to match a stack of stuff together. For the "audio experts" who can it would be tough to get this much performance for the same, or even a higher, price:

@thespeakerdude 

If you ever come up with a recommendation for my $40K active home theater I will consider you "unlost". Until then, a guy with your handle that can't even put together a system, in an audio chat room, surrounded by threads about systems, that claims to read everything, every month related to audio,

does seem to be ............