Powered speakers show audiophiles are confused

Checkout the Kraftwerk 3D blueray, 3D video with a great atmos soundtrack

It cracks me up when I see a thread and a HT enthusiast is going on about capturing the "directors intent". You have no idea what amount of time, effort and budget were devoted to the blueray vs the theatrical release. I can guarantee it was MUCH less compared to the theatrical mix.

@donavabdear

What do you think about waiting until 2024 to consider getting the Steinway system? Get rid of the hum in your current system and maybe try a matching Anthem amp for your Paradigm speakers in 2023 and then see how you like it?

@donavabdear 

Paradigm and Anthem are the perfect example of a company that should really make speakers and amps and crossovers made for each other.

I didn't realize you were driving your surrounds with Anthem. I already own many of the Paradigm/Anthem active speakers and of course agree that they are made for each other. I don't think it matters if you use gen 1 or 2 in a surround system. Maybe a fun comparison to run your mains in 2 channel stereo mode and swap the solid state Anthem out with the BHK tube amp and compare the differences.

@thespeakerdude 

I just said that all you do is cut and paste from the internet, and your response was...to cut and paste that dolby link from the internet.

I wish I was making this up but sad to say, you have been exposed.

@thespeakerdude 

It is one area where we think 

You are stepping into an area that borders on fiction. You have NO system any one is aware of, no creds, and now "we"? Is we invisible too? Post a link to your think tank.

ATMOS provides a rough definition for the dispersion pattern of speakers

Really? You actually have an Atmos system that isn't invisible??? Details? Is this something you read about too? LOL.

eventually the appropriate algorithms to maximize the "experience".

When you have some pics to post of your atmos system you will actually have an experience, it should be better than a chatroom I hope.

@donavabdear

First, thanks for the shout out. This is not the thread for a build. What I would do in your shoes is start a build thread and get contributions from the entire community here. Asking for "tube sound" without tubes is going to depend on the "tube sound" that pleases you. Then it has to be a "tube sound" through your speakers. I do know of one solid state amp that had a switch on the back for either tube sound or solid state. Would the sound please you on your Paradigm speakers? Who can tell.

I have tried various amps on my passive version of the Paradigm Studio Reference speakers. There was one amp that when I connected it in bi-amp mode threw the most incredible wall to wall, floor to ceiling soundstage. The Carver AV 505 THX certified amp. This amp was a precursor to Bob’s next company Sunfire where he took the power supply technology one step further by adding two types of connections, voltage and current. (See Robert Greene’s comments in 10 Most Significant amps of all time)

Here is a page of reviews from owners of the Sunfire Signature amp:

and here is a link to the manual, see page 13 about the voltage and current source connections.

From Steve Guttenbergs review:

A unique connectivity option appears on the amplifier’s main left and right speaker connections, which are labeled "Voltage Source," and "Current Source." Over my Dynaudio speakers, the Voltage outputs sounded more detailed with better-defined bass, while the Current connection definitely shifted the balance toward a bigger, fatter, more three-dimensional sound. So, the TGA-5400 took on some of the sonic personality of some audiophile tube amps.

The MCH amps have this feature too but you will have to find them on the second hand market.

If you are looking for the Sunfire look for the TGA 7401. If you bi-amp your 9H speakers with the voltage source to the woofer and current source to the tweeter (the 7401 is 400W a channel) that would be 800W per speaker I think you will be a happy camper. Your speakers are rated to 500W but I don’t think they will have a problem with this amp. You will have 3 channels left over for your CC and your surrounds:

As for the $200K budget first check out the Sunfire amp to see if you get the "toobie goodness" without the tubes. After biamping the 9H’s use the current source connections (at 400w a channel) on your CC and surrounds.

Please start a build thread for the rest, not really appropriate for a thread on powered speakers.

Review on the Sunfire 7401:

The so-called "current sources" with big internal resistance modulate the work of a tube amp. But you can switch to Voltage Source connectors - in this case the amplifier will work as a voltage source with minimal internal resistance and as a consequence maximal damping of the load.

We started the test with "current" terminals. The device immediately conquered by sonority and a completely smooth musical balance. It has a tremendous energy in the area of the lowest "seismic" basses and elaborates very well overhangs. But TGA-7401 didn’t surprise by absolute dynamics. Yeah, this device can provide a clear sound at the most powerful levels, but - without fiery temperament. The sound here is relaxed and open, rich and calm. It’s amazing but having such a phlegmatic character, the sound can’t be called slow. The device conveys the relief of drums accurately, deeply digs for each harmonic and is able to give copper, entrancing by its brightness, naturalness and beauty. It is really special. It’s hard to remember an amplifier from this price category, which not only gladdens by detailing but also by exceptional harmonic resolution in the uppercase. Each played plate is unique and inimitable in Sunfire!

An interesting metamorphosis occurs at switching speaker system to Voltage source terminals. Bass is slightly offloaded and accelerated, overhangs become shorter and more sharp, but the energy doesn’t weaken but as if brightens. Yes, the sound picture turns out to be less somatic, but more transparent and better detailed. This mode is good when you want to get the purest transmission of sound atmosphere as well as the most accurate scene.

http://www.hifi-review.com/152484-sunfire-tga-7401.html

@thespeakerdude

I am not up on all the latest in home audio equipment to even begin to spend $200K,

+1 (+10!)🤣

@donavabdear

Please start a build thread so we can get started, it should be a great thread when you see how many ideas you get from other members. I have some things I feel are KEY before you do anything. You have a dual space and if you get the mixing space wrong it will not only cost you budget, it will cost you income! See you in the new thread when you are ready but I recommend scoring that amp ASAP.

@donavabdear ,

Clearly someone in this thread is out of ideas so is attacking the messenger here.

If you want toob goodness from solid state this is the best alternative I know. I have tried many Sunfire products (preamps, subs and amps) and can assure you it will be a quality experience. Whether or not it is "tooby" enough only you can tell. 

Re, the 7401:

 "...TGA-7401 is one of the most powerful multichannel amplifiers. The whole index of the device stands as follows: Theater Grand Amplifier 7 x 400 watts. Such return became possible due to quite clever system of tracking supply (patented by Bob under the brand Tracking Downcoverter). The idea is simple: in a common amplifier a high potential of power is constantly applied to output transistors, but in Carver's amplifier it changes in such a way that voltage allowance in reference to amplified signal is always 6V. But the realization of this principle is quite difficult because tracking must be performed with high accuracy and speed - a separate pulsed system answers for it. Carver created the amplifier, which almost can't be forced into clipping (our power supply had up to 800W on 47 Ohm), as output transistors always work in optimal and safe mode. The idea - "complex load" - doesn't exist for TGA-7401: actually it adjusts to any. In addition, lots of energy is saved, which went into heat before. " The inefficiency of conventional amplifiers results in accommodating the wasteful appetite by relying on massive transformers and other over-building to achieve about the same results, at more expense - and they really are limited by their thirst for more continuous power than any 15 or 20 amp circuit can provide. Read up on the patented Tracking Downconverter. Not only that, but a 20 amp power supply produces 2,400 continuous watts, and can produce several times that for very short times, though many times the length of musical notes. The patented Tracking Downconverter takes full advantage of this phenomenon, and is the only design that does. Another advantage is the Tracking Downconverter allows significantly lower continuous consumption of power, which is reflected not only in saving money on the amp itself, but also saving on the power bill, and therefor being a far more Green product through an advanced technology.

Meridian is a company that takes designing things to go together to a completely other level. I have heard their gear (not recommending you change) and while expensive, it sounds great and is absolutely worth it IMO. In a thread on active speakers Meridian is up their with the best for my taste.

I look forward to your new thread.

It is funny how this thread has come full circle, it started with powered speakers being confusing. Now that has been resolved and it seems amplifiers are confusing.😵

OP, score one of these on Ebay or here on A’gon and maybe you can save some budget. 

@donavabdear

I think we are drifting off topic of powered speakers, if you start your build thread with the topic you just posted it would be better fit.

As far as separate systems I think your mixing system is separate yes, everything for your personal system can/should have the Lyngdorf processor and Paradigm speakers at the heart for at least the next year. If my income was linked to my mixing system I would optimize that first.

You have a flagship processor with flagship speakers and a flagship CUSTOMER (oscar winning engineer, right)= flagship performance, it should be pretty straight forward as you have everything you need (and then some).

Don't worry, this is NOT the "Titanic" 😁

Keeping timing issues coherent in audio is very difficult.

It will never be perfect but you can do what you can, often for very little $$, just some time and effort. I got a laser pointer/measurement device for like $20 and got my MLP the same distance from my front speakers as from my back surround speakers. Then my front height channels and angles the same as my rear height channels and angles. Then your DSP is able to do a much better job.

I found the angles recommended by dolby in speaker setup to work very well in my room too. All it required was moving my MLP to the center of the room and then I could place my surrounds and wide channels at the proper angles. Obviously YMMV depending on the size of your room. This diagram of Floyd Tooles personal HT is a good example of an equidistant listening position:

"Active is not about where the amplifier is, it’s about where the crossover is."

IMO the speaker setup in your room is free and the proper specs to follow are available for free. You just need to take a half a day to move stuff around. What knee caps a HT once you get the room right isn’t the source or the processor, it’s the power. Did you ever wonder why a company will sell a 2 channel amp for more money than a 5,7, or 11 channel amp?
How can a traditional power supply provide the equivalent SQ to MCH amps as a 2 channel amp? This is like putting a 4 cylinder engine in a Lamborghini IMO. Whether you use a receiver or separates your speakers are still knee capped. To light them up proper those speakers would need to be bi-amped with proper power. Good luck fitting 22 channels of amplification for a 7.1.4 system into your room.

Now, enter the elegant and dare I say BETTER solution. Unhobble those wobbly knee caps and add rocket thrusters like I did with active speakers in the HT. Free up space, free up budget, add a frigging lightning bolt of power and get out of the way :).

The SQ you get per dollar spent using the active HT is mind boggling.

You can go with 5 pairs of Yamaha HS8’s and a single one for a CC and a Yamaha CX-A5200 processor (or their next gen when it comes out) for less than $10K.

You could go with 5 pairs of Emotiva Airmotiv 4’s and a single for a CC and their RMC-1L Processor for less than $10K.

Of course you would want to add some subs (of the active variety) and you have simplified the entire HT process. Anyone reading this thread who wants a SOA home theater would be hard pressed to do better without paying 3-5 times the price. You get matching amps, speakers, and processors and all you need is a shelf for your gear, not a 6 foot tall rack. Take the $ you save on speaker cables and spend it on your sources and you are done!

If you got more than $10K get a JBL SDP-58 and 8 pairs of JBL 308P or their 7 Series monitors and stop agonizing about mixing speakers/amps, or whatever. 
 

Can anyone reading this thread tell me how to get a better system for the same $ with a passive setup???

Now, if you got more than $50K you got more matched/active options like:

Processor- JBL SDP-75

L-C-R speakers- JBL M2 (active)

surround bed channels- JBL 708P (active)

height channels- JBL 705P (active)

OR

You can get a matched active system by Focal:

Processor- Focal Astral 16 processor

Speakers- Focal Immersive Audio 7.1.4 monitoring system

Finally, if you got more than $100K and want to sweeten the deal:

Processor- Digital Meridian Surround Controller 

L-R Channels- Meridian DSP 7200

CC- Meridian DSP 7200HC

Bed and Height Channels- Meridian DSP3200

OP, you mentioned you have a budget for an upgrade. I have been holding off for a new thread but may as well get started. I don’t see a weak link in any of your components. Paradigm/Lyngdorf/Anthem/PS Audio is all top shelf.

Is there a problem in:

A) Component synergy/mismatches?

B) Room/system interaction?

C) You are a tough customer? After being around studios and studio budgets I would get that.

From your pics my guess is room/system interaction but IDK for sure.

When you have a LOT of speakers in a passive system you have a LOT of speaker cables. Not just in the runs but in the speaker crossovers as well. Those speaker cables can choke the signal. Why is it that some 8 foot pairs of speaker cables cost more than zip cord? To "unchoke" that signal. That can get crazy expensive if you run high quality cables to many speakers over distances, like in a surround setup. Active speakers eliminate that potential choke point while putting speaker cable budget in your pocket to spend elsewhere.

Has anyone noticed that a matched system of processors and active speakers also gets rid of the confusion surrounding your choices that the OP mentions? 

OK, you got a Lyngdorf processor and PS Audio amps, the toobs are high maintenance and nickel and diming you on replacements.

Lyngdorf amps are of the two channel variety (SDA-2400) and at $2400 that works out to $1200 a channel. Your atmos rig has 11 channels so is it worth $1200 x 11 channels= $13,000+ to add 6 of those amps to your stack and hit the bid on the toobs?

If you miss your toobs get a tube based headphone amp. This one has a preamp out so you could use it as a 2 ch preamp as well.

You could hook the RCA out from the Manley to the RCA in of the SDA 2400 and the XLR out of your processor to the XLR in of the SDA 2400. You can switch between the inputs on the back and that amp would be driving your Paradigm 9H's.

I can't find a company that is totally system oriented other than Steinway 

Have you ever auditioned a system by Meridian?

I do want to put my money where I feel that the science and common sense leads 

Example of a common sense room, based on Meridian tech:

@thespeakerdude 

I found the most amazing active speaker setup for you. It is SOA and probably the leading company in the entire category of active speakers. If you need help picking the right one start a new thread. If you want to do an atmos system wait until March when their new models are announced. 

Please click HERE and post any questions in a new thread. You will LOVE it!

@thespeakerdude 

I am not up on all the latest in home audio equipment to even begin to spend $200K

I started another thread here that should be a good one to help you get up to speed, there some excellent system ideas. Feel free to drop by, I am sure you will find the help you need:

@thespeakerdude

they Sonos has tried to recruit me twice

If you turned them down the joke is clearly on you. Well, at least you can still buy their stuff:

@thespeakerdude

I am busting your chops a bit but your claims have simply been outlandish, at least to me. I called out some other members in this same thread who immediately backed up their posts. Even @donavabdear was called out in this thread and he threw down (an Oscar even, having coffee with the stars, didn’t see that coming.)

You are still invited to my thread on inexpensive systems, it is truly a treasure trove of info on system matching.

@thespeakerdude

It is obviously that one of us knows speakers and one does not. Hint, it is not you.

It is clear that one of us OWNS speakers, and that one is not you.

You should quit trolling while you are ahead. All you have done in this thread is troll, complain, and whine. You FAILED the OP’s "test", in typical crash and burn style.

Clearly you have posted 0 pics in your virtual system, 0 info on your fantasy creds, 0 ideas about solid state amps that can replicate tubes, and 0 ideas on how to put together a system.

If I am counting correctly, that adds up to...0. 🤣

I am sure @kota1 can tell you why I picked those frequencies.

Because you couldn't pick a system, a preamp, a speaker, an amp, or even a cable, LOL. 🙄

Nothing I have said is even a slight bit outlandish

Sonos is trying to hire someone.. who can't even assemble a system.

I gave you some material to study

LOL, see the above.

participate in a more advanced discussion.

I invited you to my other thread, come discuss already.

I don’t feel called out by you

Yeah, what do I know, I'm just an unofficial moderator right?

whatever it is you think you are doing 

In a thread on powered speakers I shared my 9.2.7 system... of powered speakers.

I shared how any member of this forum can build a matched system based on powered speakers on a budget of less than $10K to more than $100K ($200K if you include construction costs of the room).

If I posted about a tube sounding solid state amp its because I actually used it, on the same brand of speakers of the OP.

Please come to the other thread, there are many budget systems that have been painstakingly curated by members here (some even have pictures in the virtual system area)

I think I’m justo going to buy some nice speakers and subs for my upgrade, I don’t think I can go active, other than the subs.

Like I said, you should start a build thread and get suggestions from other members. Just from your one post you already picked up some keen info from @invalid

I’ve seen multiple posts that claim the BHK preamp is noisy.

Who knows how many other people have experience with a similar product or issue that can give you some info based on their experience and the money they already spent, so you can save yours.

I don’t think I can go active, other than the subs.

Then this would clearly be the wrong thread to get suggestions. If you change your mind and decide to go active, just post and I’m sure you will get some good recommendations.

You already have a SOA active system with the Genelec’s so I get wanting to dabble a bit.

@donavabdear 

I don't see @phusis or @mijostyn claiming to work for a speaker company. IMO @thespeakerdude is another DIY guy who is all about the "talk" because unlike @phusis and ​​​@mijostyn he ain't got the walk.

However, the good news is you didn't drop any coin on his lame advice yet so while the entertainment factor is fine, at least you don't gotta take much risk.

@thespeakerdude

I will try better

No worries, I don’t think you could get any worse. If you ever get some actual speakers start a new thread so we can celebrate OK?🙄

@donavabdear 

Easiest way to test is plug everything into a single power bar

LOL, this guy will lead you from one dead end to another, feel free to play around, just don't spend any actual scratch.

This thread started about powered speakers and confusion. I see a LOT of confusion in the last few posts that might derail this thread.

You don’t need tubes, power bars, exotic setups, multiple systems, and on and on people. The point of this thread is the advantages of powered speakers, not the confusion running amuk among the multiple posters here.

So look, let’s get down to it. To get a GREAT result for a very reasonable cash outlay here is an example. Two active speakers plus one preamp/streamer with built in room correction. That is all you need to get a great result. Don't let the confused posters make this complicated. Not your problem and certainly not mine.

I took two Paradigm active speakers plus one Paradigm PW Link preamp (entry level) and BOOM. Notice how flat the graph is even before the room correction. That is due to a large part of the engineers success building the speaker. I didn’t need to stress about amps, cables, yada, yada, yada. This setup would work great for a big room, an office, a bar, etc:

@donavabdear

What started out as a thread about resolving confusion is becoming confusing as it is drifting off topic. Mixing positions? Subwoofer hum? Tube problems? Amps that sound like tubes but are not tubes? How to invest $200K? Problems with products that are not speakers?

Do you see why this is confusing in a thread on powered speakers?

These types of issues can be quickly resolved working with a local dealer/installer. You likely have someone local who carries both Lyngdorf and Paradigm, maybe even Meridien. With your budget that is probably the least risky, most productive way to go.

This is a great example of the silliness that audiophiles live under.

This entire thread has been hijacked by confusion and has now morphed into silliness.
You are comparing consumers (audiophiles) with creators (artists, mixers, and mastering engineers).

Did you notice how much more you liked listening to your Paradigm speakers then your Genelecs? Did you worry about time alignment or did you enjoy the moment? Just like you changed speakers you have to leave your analytic ears at the mixing station and your relaxation ears to your other rig. I think having them both in the same room is why you are getting mixed up.

@donavabdear

Think how you would have avoided the potholes you are hitting if you would have stuck to the premise you started with in this thread. A matched system of processor/preamp and active speakers and you would have saved budget and aggravation.

Don’t attempt to DIY a fix, it is too expensive when you are talking over six figures into a room (or maybe two when you consider your mix station.) Get a good system integrator familiar with the brands you like, let them do the heavy lifting and kick back.

@donavabdear 

"correction" this may be the reason you are getting mixed up:

 but let’s not call it time alignment, as that usually refers to a speaker correction algorithm. More accurate would be delay correction. Then throw in volume correction 

Correction this has now gone past confusion and morphed into silliness

@donavabdear 

How can an audiophile justify a vibration system of any sort with this in mind.

This is a great example of the silliness that audiophiles live under.

Given the budget you invested in your current setup most "audiophiles" as you describe them wouldn't have this many roadblocks. Don't take my word for it, go through the virtual system area and see, ask questions to the owners of the systems that you like.

I’m new to home stereo and I have you guys to pick your brains, if I started different threads I wouldn’t have learned near as much.

This is why I stand by my recommendation to use a professional system integrator. The way you have been posting all over the place it is clear you are new. Your system is very different than most members, including myself. I wouldn't do a mash up of a mix station and a home theater in one media room.  Can it be done? Sure, but you need to measure each MLP and dial in meticulously with equipment choices, speaker setup, and acoustic treatment. IF you find another member who already has a system like that wonderful. Otherwise, you are just going to be taking risks with your budget. Quite frankly spend what you like how you like but that isn't my idea of how to arrive at  good value.

I encourage you to stop by the thread I started on building budget systems that outperform. Then try visiting the thread about people that spend $100K on a system that underperforms. You don't want to be "that guy" that spent a lot, but didn't get a lot IMO. You are speeding in that direction from what I see in your recent posts with your collaborator cheering you on, LOL.

@thespeakerdude 

Would love to help but the guy from Sonos just called and I'm getting ready for my interview LOL, 😂🤣😎

Get this book, good luck with your system:

having an experienced acoustics person look at your room is the way to go 

+1, now go find one

Then you know THX-

For your HT calibration:

For your studio:

Good luck with your system.

Confusion cure- These are "the best" active/wireless speakers ranging from $500 to $11,000. Speakers like this not only have built in amps, but pre-amps, phono stages, dac’s, and you can use wires if you don’t want the wireless feature. The cost includes everything so you don’t need to spend extra bucks on a stack and rack of gear (or speaker wires). For anyone wanting instant decadence for a sweet price check it out:

"You could spend 2 or 3 times the $11,000 of the Dynaudio Focus 50 and not achieve that level of sound quality"(:24 minute mark)

@donavabdear 

The wireless feature in an option. they all have traditional wired connections too. 

You can connect a source via wired, internet via an ethernet cable, etc. This is the back of the Dynaudio "wireless" Focus series:

@donavabdear 

Did you get confused? 😀