@thespeakerdude What do you know about Audio Research equipment? Because powered speakers and even synergistic design philosophies aren't available at a the level I want, seems like Audio Research has a really good reputation.
I honestly think audiophiles don't want to mix and match so much audio equipment if a company came along that made closed systems they could do very well especially at the start, this is why so many have said Steinway systems are the best in the world and they are in the $150k to $550k range not really as much as the best systems. After the first few systems came out the rabbit would be out of the bad and all the research for the manufactures would go out the window. I don't know the answer but I'm being forced to just buy the best I can and hope I don't buy a stinker like the Stella.
One more question for you Speakerdude what do companies do with their research speakers, I'm in love with a new AMG GT that is a prototype by Mercedes it will never be produced, but what about speakers where do they go when the manufactures say well this prototype sounds to good and it's to expensive, and how can I buy them?
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@kota1 Now your talking thanks.
Anything that ugly has got to sound great.
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@mastering92 You're right ugly is not the right word, and you're right in your description and importance of the brand. I've spent millions on pro sound equipment and lived in LA doing the highest pressure productions on the planet. Now I'm retired and live in Idaho in a beautiful home next to a lake. I'm not watching movies or music for technical gaffs or evaluation I just want to enjoy. I've got an atoms mixing system that I'm about to do some projects on. That system is utility the speakers aren't beautiful (Genelec "the ones" ) but it sound really good and surprises me every time I turn it on.
@kota1 I haven't listened to the video yet I will and thank you. You are a never ending fountain of information. But this picture above is really bad, any speaker in that room will sound bad without exception, you couldn't make a good recording in that room you also can't listen well in that room. Looks more like a commercial set up without cables in a right angle echo chamber. Bryston is a good company this picture is embarrassing for them.
I've literally shot movie and TV productions in rooms that looked like this and told the producers if you let xxxxx actor walk in this room they will be insulted because you can't hear anything and the recording will be awful, this is what happens when a young art director doesn't think it through.
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@kota1 On the video did you catch how they didn't listen to symmetrical speakers in the PMC / Capitol video. I haven't come to any conclusions yet but working with object based information means you are creating images between the speakers, so if you are in a completely symmetrical listening position the images can't have much depth. Consistently the best Atmos mixes I've heard and seen on ProTools meters have been mixes that sound good in stereo and the other speakers add depth in back, with some little silly instrument gimmicks that are used on side speakers just because they can. Movies are much further ahead in surround mixing than music because your brain understands the images coming at above and around you where in music everything is backwards if you are hearing the band from the side and behind. discipline is the winning and boring answer, setting up surround music mixes is disturbing to your brain because you are never in an understood environment. Eventually surround music may become a genera unto its self and become just fun but people won't have real connection to the music unless some standards are made fairly soon.
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@kota1 I hope even someone stumbling onto this thread has at least seen why quality powered speakers are superior. I have been pointing out the problems with powered speakers and it's logical extension synergistic systems. If all the components were made for each other the entire system would sound better. When I was working in the film industry I was the first sound mixer to be completely digital from transmitter to recording there were a few others who used digital recorders before I did but not be digital through the entire path, it was a huge help I could keep a lower signal and if an actor got inspired and screamed for no reason I had way more headroom than everyone else because I only used one A to D converter. Production sound recorders now have a dynamic range of 142db we only hear 120db so that means the limitation isn't the recordings anymore 20 years ago it was about 110 db 30 years ago recorders could record about 85db. Sound now has more resolution in every way than we can hear, so naturally manufactures should market the most efficient speaker/amp/DAC/Streamer system possible, nope they are very happy to have all of us waste money buying everything separately and getting it wrong most of the time then buying more and more and more equipment.
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@kota1
I was just reading in a very high end forum that external crossovers are bad and setting up amps for each driver is bad, I understand there are confused people everywhere but dear lord it doesn't matter how into hi fi the people are they are there is so much mythology.
I think you have misunderstood my view of my Genelec system, I'm very happy with it it's like a well done plumbing job I don't have to worry about it and it does the job its intended to do. There is nothing experiential about it, audiophiles don't love the music they love the experience, numbers aren't beautiful but a formula can be beautiful and deserve all the adjectives of a wine or speaker review. Simply another way audiophiles are confused.
@muaythai
"Enjoy your music" that can be done with a 1980 ghetto blaster, I enjoyed lots of music that way. I know what you are saying and your right of course but we are going for an experience not an appreciation. The quest is the psychological fulfillment of many boxes from "ya I spent my money right" to "this is going to make me cry" and on and on.
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@kota1 That was an interesting video about the cheep Sonus Faber crossover. Some of the people at the SF forum were agreeing that SF was not what they used to be. Like you say I just have to listen, hope that didn't apply to the Aida.
I like this guy on the video. This guy recognized that powered speakers with good parts were much better but the ultimate point is that speakers that are designed with an amp/driver in mind are much much better. people who want to mix and match components have more variability with an active speaker design. A powered design will last you several years, great. Some of the early Steinway speakers (Model D) are already getting old as far as tech. the speaker is fine but the components that feed it are getting obsolete and at $220k that's a little tough, but since they are passive and not powered that is at least some advantage. From what you have posted it seems that Bryston is doing things correctly. Do you remember when this conversation started immediately people mentioned cheep speakers, but that is not really what this forum is about I don't think it should be understood that this isn't the forum that is interested in cheep speakers. I've always appreciated PS Audio because they used to have a company philosophy that priced the components according to the cost of the parts, that makes a lot of sense.
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It's the beginning of the month and so I get a few new videos of a renowned pianists playing their Steinway pianos for the Spirio piano that I own. I played a new song on it and felt all the vibrations all over the piano, it was vibrating everywhere. The piano is a Steinway and Sons Spirio/R Model B 7 foot Grand, it is beautiful and flawless the craftsmanship is amazing the piano is sitting in its own round room with 24 ft inverted arch ceiling. I bought this piano new and it's been tuned by a professional several times. The sound is nothing like I've ever heard on any speaker the entire piano is radiating sound not just a driver divided up into frequencies. Speakers can be works of art but this piano is a real work of art made of wood not resin polymers and it is the only HiFi playback I've ever heard in my life.
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@kota1 I think the Bryston system is probably the smartest there is. I honestly don't know how audiophiles don't think active speakers are the way to get the best sound? If powered speakers are scary because you are worried about your amps going out of style then go active with outboard crossovers. The Bryston system should be the blueprint for a 3 way speaker that includes inputs from the crossovers and outputs to specific frequency windows. If all sound equipment were mad like this audiophiles wouldn't have to say "hey guys I'm buying as set of $140k XXX speakers what amp should I get?" really stupid commentary not on the one seeking info but the audiophile industry in general. Why does anyone put up with it, answer, because there is no alternative.
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Nice to hear from you @lonemountain great info. Is there any way someone can use specs to put together a high end system that is active? What I’m asking for is a way to use the specs on speakers amps and crossovers that would work together optimally, I’m sure the answer is no but why. Say I buy a very expensive spare of speakers and then take the passive crossovers out then pick amps for the drivers together with outboard electronic crossovers. I really don’t want to guess when spending so much money.
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@erik_squires back when I was in acoustics years ago there was a lot of talk about frequencies riding on each other. This was when WMTMW was starting and the point was that frequencies were actually interacting nondestructively and preserving high frequencies along the axis of the companion frequencies. This could explain that plot. Sorry if that didn't make any sense.
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@kota1 as I've said before companies like Sony, Yamaha, Harmon and the like can produce anything they want as far as quality tech. I bet someone like you could get someone like the @thespeakerdude to point you in a direction to make a top quality center speaker that you would never get access to otherwise. I would give a lot to have access to experimental prototypes (or notes) that these companies build that will probably be sold in 5 years from now. Of course we know he can't give you direct company info but he can point you in the right direction. Just saying.
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@erik_squires it seems odd to me that speakers don't do frequency plots like microphone plots showing off axis coloration at different frequencies. The importance is just the same, with microphones generally the longer the polar pattern the poorer the off axis colorations are and that is very important to the overall sound depending on the acoustics of the room and where there are other off axis noises. It is the same for speakers poor off axis coloration that bounces off a wall is just the same as a microphone that hears poorly from the side.
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@thespeakerdude lots of plots even polar patterns about speakers and SPL /directivity but not frequency polar patterns what could be more important. I think it shows how many poor crossovers there has been historically that the main plots on speakers is SPL. Even the few frequency polar patterns I've seen with speakers rarely show anything in the back of the speaker, if the sound coming out of the back of a speaker is off then the sound in the room will not be what it should in the important reverbs and ambiences.I often say microphones and speakers are the same, it's true and this little note is because microphones are much more scientific and not marketing driven. If speakers had a single point source the measurements would look just like microphone polar patterns and speaker manufacturers would be held more accountable.
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@kota1 "Gone in 60 Seconds " was a big movie we shot in Long Beach Ca for nearly 3 months at night and about 2 months in other locations, it was very grueling.
I think @thespeakerdude is for real, I don't know the audiophile world yet but I do know the physics of sound and he gets that right.
I saw your thread on sound measurements, curious as to why so much info on SPL and so little info given by way of frequency polar patterns?
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@secretguy what is a CJ? Whatever it means this thread is getting weird.
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Ya, I don't know why I didn't think of crossovers as moving and changing per impedance, frequency, amplitude. I never read that part of the documentation of the Genelecs, I never had that thought. Again if a speaker had an active crossover that changed per the electronic principles of the way the amp looks at the driver and a speaker crossover that doesn't which one is better? Hello McFly!! What an obvious question it's why the more I work on the Genelecs the better they get. Before and after graph would be great but there will never be an after graph for me this is more of a journey than a destination.
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Tomorrow I’m ordering the DSP equipment for my Genelec system the people at Sweetwater said my Protools MTRX could do just as good of job but it doesn’t. The crossovers in the Genelec "The Ones" are active so they are programable, this opens up the ability for the amps to drive the drivers differently at low levels among other things. This is from the Genelec site
Active crossover operating at low signal levels.
Audio electronic crossovers allow to split the audio signal into separate frequency bands that can be separately routed to individual power amplifiers which then are connected to specific transducers optimized for a particular frequency band.
Active crossovers come in both digital and analogue varieties. Genelec digital active crossovers include additional signal processing, such as driver protection, delay, and equalization.
Genelec analogue active crossover filters contain electronic components that are operated at low signal levels suitable for power amplifier inputs. This is in contrast to passive crossovers that operate at the high signal levels of the power amplifier’s outputs, having to handle high currents and in some cases high voltages.
In a typical 2-way system the active crossover needs two power amplifiers — one for the woofer and one for the tweeter.
The active crossover design offers multiple benefits:
- The frequency response becomes independent of any dynamic changes in the driver’s electrical characteristics or the drive level.
- There is an increased flexibility and precision to adjust and fine tune each output frequency response for the specific drivers used.
- Each driver has its own signal processing and power amplifier. This isolates each driver from the drive signals handled by the other drivers, reducing inter-modulation distortion and overdriving problems.
- The ability to compensate for sensitivity variations between drivers.
- The possibility to compensate for the frequency and phase response anomalies associated with a driver’s characteristics within the intended pass-band.
- The flat frequency response of a high-quality active loudspeaker is a result of the combined effect of the crossover filter response, power amplifier responses and driver responses in a loudspeaker enclosure.
Using the active approach enables frequency response adjustments and optimization of the full loudspeaker system, placed in various room environments, without expensive external equalizers. The end result is a simpler, more reliable, efficient, consistent and precise active loudspeaker system.
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@thespeakerdude So best practices in hi fidelity sound systems should be adaptive in a more complete way.
- Each driver has its own signal processing and power amplifier. This isolates each driver from the drive signals handled by the other drivers, reducing inter-modulation distortion and overdriving problems.
Assuming the latency in the processing is the same in each circuit it would be foolish to not be able to adaptively based on signal parameters to optimize the handshake between the amp and the driver variably. I could see how that circuit could really cause problems if Genelecs were integrated into any other speaker systems, variable latency would be impossible to keep phase in the entire system.
I think "the ones" are variable because each amp has its own DSP why do that if the crossovers are ridged? You could be right because there are many studios that are upgrading to "the ones" along with older speakers so if there is onboard variable crossovers seems like there would be a warning in the manual, which there isn’t . I temporarily set up my speakers analog because I didn’t know how good the D to A converters were but since there is already A to D converters within each amp 3 it is foolish to give these speakers an analog signal. I use the MTRX processor on protools so the signal would stay totally digital all the way through the system with only one change at the speakers.
This brings up another problem I often fight with and that is with so many onboard digital plugins such as EQ, comps. bass processors, reverbs, and spacial effects how can the signal stay pure so the final D to A conversion even has a chance to keep the signal coherent? I suppose it would be easy to record 3 sign waves in the middle of each driver frequency range, process them with lots of digital plugins and see if a good sign wave comes out the other end, I have a feeling it won’t, should be fun.
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@thespeakerdude
Also I wanted to ask you, with DSP incorporated into each amp that is connected to each driver of course we are only using the term crossover in a generic way because of course there would be no need for a crossover at all, im just saying crossover as meaning the window of frequencies going to a particular driver.
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@thespeakerdude @kota1 Well darn the guy with the stereo store didn't want to buy my building, he took a month to tell me, oh well, no free upgrades. Thank you both for your wise guidance, I truly appreciate all your insights.
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@viridian That's funny, I think the best argument against powered speakers is that the amps will someday be obsolete. I don't know of a good argument against active speakers (speakers that are designed with outboard crossovers). Buying an expensive speaker then asking a bunch of confused audiophiles which amp to use is confusing also, we would never be so silly in any other part of our lives.
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