@lonemountain , it must feel like you are a fly on the walls, nice to get the inside scoop. The problems you posted about atmos music applies to movies as well. You have great mixes and weak mixes. The best mix I have heard so far is the kraftwerk catalogue on bluray. At reference level it is a great concert mix. I really like the Beatles remixes too. I am using more Tidal to stream than apple music. Apple just sounds a bit bright for my room.
@mijostyn , if you like 2 channel all good, maybe you can send capitol record studios some pointers on their speaker selection. Who knows, maybe they’ll outsource a custom build for you!
I really like the flexibility to upmix certain tracks. Vinyl guys swap out cartridges=$.
Digital guys swap out DAC’s= $.
Immersive music guys push a button on the remote. Every recording can benefit from how it is played back in your room and you still have 2 channel as one of the many options.
It is a matter of preference and taste, not better or worse. One example that includes measurements and test tones. He discusses 2 channel music upmixing at 5:30:
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@donavabdear
I am a bit envious of you, @lonemountain @brianlucey who get to personally check out these legendary spaces. If the kota walked in the only speaker you would hear is the intercom speaker "security" and that would be a short visit as I get the boot.
I tapped as many engineers for wisdom as I could when setting up my space and continue to benefit from the generosity of your community. Totally different to actually see and listen in those studios where so much great content has been created (and still is). The "aha" takeaway I have gleaned from your posts so far is how different your pro system is from your personal system. The grass on the pro side may be different, but not necessarily greener. As for the speakers my takeaway from that shot of studio C was they were all identical, Steve said they were all full range, and look like they placed with absolute precision. Even though we all may have different rooms, speakers, and budgets, most of us can attempt to be precise as possible with setup and placement. Remember how I nudged you about your center channel? Moving it was no biggie and then you get a better result for your investment.
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@noromance
If you wanted to use tube amps you would choose an external active crossover, for example:
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@erik_squires
Sounds like a good project with the CC. In my system I have two CC, one active connected with the XLR output connected below my screen, and one passive connected with the RCA output connected above.
Question, right now I use two subs and I am happy (you can see the measurements in my profile). My room is not that big, would their be any benefit to adding more subs? I am thinking about adding one for my Atmos height channels and mounting it high on the wall (it is a flat sub designed for wall mounting). Do you think it would add any value? Thanks
BTW, those Butcher Block racks in your system look great.
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@erik_squires
Thanks for the reply, my bass has sufficient dynamic range and is smooth. You answered my question, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. I really don't need to go beyond the two subs I have now. Thanks!
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@lonemountain
I think audiophiles want to change systems for the better in an incremental approach. Certainly you can change speakers but how do you improve the sound without changing the speakers? Source components, cables, amplification, vibration control, etc.
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Re: the marketing question, are expensive products for a bunch of arrogant suckers with cash to dispose of? I think the companies that have been around a while have stayed around because of customer satisfaction. The new companies going against them may rely on grossly overstating their products, but how can they stay in business for very long?
I think the issue is wasting money on mismatched components and rooms, not the dealers and manufacturers.
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@thespeakerdude
You need to back up the stuff you claim with something:
How would you listen for transparency? What does it sound like? Have you heard it before?
I can tell you EXACTLY how to listen for transparency, with your ears.
You have an invisible system, a mythical job, making fictional speakers. If I’m wrong post your creds. Otherwise start a new thread and title it, "Once upon a time.." so we all know its a fairytale going in OK?
I encourage my fellow members to stop feeding the troll unless he posts his creds.
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@thespeakerdude
It is very difficult to listen for transparency
For YOU
because our (replace our with @thespeakerdude ) detailed audio memory is so short that we have a very hard time comparing
clearly there are several people commenting on this topic who are far more knowledgeable and experienced than you are
Of course there is, otherwise I wouldn’t waste my time in this thread. The people I am gaining knowledge from have all posted their creds. You are making it up as you go along IMO.
I would suggest you lose the attitude
I wouldn’t have an attitude if you posted something besides a fantasy system from your made up job designing invisible speakers, PLEASE prove me wrong OK?
Everything I make claims about when posting I either link to evidence or it is based on my own system which I have posted. When I call out rudeness I respond in kind, your insults to @phusis are ridiculous as he has backed up his claims by posting his system. You are just dancing around spewing insults with nada to back it up besides a keyboard so I called out your nonsense.
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@thespeakerdude
you can change this
There is no value to me in pushing a rope.
To this:
There is no value to me .... unless you publish your creds
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Will all other posters in this thread who have MORE than 11 active speakers (including subs) in their PERSONAL HT (professional studios not included) please raise their hand?
Unless we have another member I win the "active speaker" playoffs for most active speakers in a HT. I think that gives me some creds when it comes to this thread.
When do I get my trophy? Thank you very much.
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When it comes to the "most creative" active speaker category I nominate @phusis
When it comes to "most knowledgeable" active speaker category I nominate @lonemountain
When it comes to "best integration of active and passive speakers" I nominate the OP @donavabdear who also gets special mention for starting this thread.
When it comes to the "best swing and a miss" active speaker category I nominate the members who have not yet tried active speakers because they were confused (but hopefully they will be on the nomination list for next years awards.)
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@donavabdear
Wow! I was posting tongue in cheek and little did I know it was so close to home.
Not just any Oscars either, 75th was historic and Titanic is legendary. What did you think of Celine?
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@donavabdear
So the guy keeps saying, "Get me a Halle Berry" and the next think you know, you GOT Halle Berry on a show and over coffee.
Lesson learned! Ask for the order and see what happens. Next step:
Get me a _____________!, then put it on a loop and repeat.
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Having a deadline will help you take it up a notch. If you want to swing by The Dub Stage in Burbank I'm happy to make an introduction to Marti, he was really helpful with advice for setting up my room:
https://www.thedubstage.com
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@joysjane
What speaker (4 pairs) were you using? Are they for sale?
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@donavabdear
You may want to check out this workshop on mixing in atmos coming up with Sweetwater's Shawn Dealey:
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@pcrhkr
When you buy Levinson separates you are able to mix and match passive speakers until you find the match you prefer. When you buy a powered speaker with a plate amp you have the ability to mix and match preamps. Whichever you prefer is up to you. I have passive and active versions of the Paradigm Reference 20 speaker and I could never get the same bass extension with the passive speaker, regardless the amp. If I already had $20,000 monoblocks maybe they would sound better matched with the passive Paradigms in the soundstage or the mids. At the end of the day it would be "different" and is a matter of preference and budget.
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What is the "pure" speaker/amp/speaker wire chain you are using @invalid? I would be interested to find out.
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See if you like Andrew Jones take on active vs passive(about the 2:00 min mark he gets on a roll) The way he describes being able to match a class D amp for the bass driver and then class A/B amps for the midrange and tweeter because you get rid of the limiting factors in a passive network sounds pretty "pure" to me. After watching this video he makes a VERY strong case for the advantages (both SQ and price point) for active:
"The ($750 active) speakers are so good they can do justice compared to the same speaker in the passive version matched with $4500 of electronics" (6:00 minute mark)
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@invalid
One on the BIG tradeoffs is budget. If I have $$$ to invest in a speaker/amp/cable chain I think active will be preferable on a value for SQ basis.
Another BIG tradeoff is convenience and a one box solution is very convenient (although you do need additional outlets).
Another BIG tradeoff is risk. When I get an active speaker I know what it will sound like. When I get a passive speaker I have to risk picking an amp and amps can get expensive then I have to risk getting a good speaker cable (if you believe those matter).
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Look how the amp is driving blind in the passive speaker vs the active amp can be individually matched to the driver (by the speaker designer who know how to max the performance of those drivers):
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@donavabdear
This is a good question. You surround sound "bed channels" should be at ear level because you want to separate them from the height channels. if you have the bed channels near the ceiling they will bleed into the height channels and DSP won’t help that.
You have leeway with DSP if let’s say your front channels are closer to the MLP than the rear surround channels. DSP can add a time delay so the sound arrives at the same time. The same applies to the height channels if front height and rear height channels are different distances from the MLP. However, you need to keep a distance between the bed and height channels to clearly hear the sound in the height channels as separate from the bed channels.
Here is a tip about height channel placement. The Dolby diagram shows the top middle channels in alignment with frony L-R speakers. Don’t do that. Bring them in a bit closer to the center of the room to prevent sound from your surround bed channels bleeding into the top middle channels. Having them a little bit closer to center will anchor the height effects better.
The reason to learn 7.1.4 NOW is it is still early days and it will be both profitable and fun. Atmos is growing in both music and movies and you will have a crossover opportunity in both markets.
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Try to get as close to the angle as possible. DSP will help if your front angle is say 55 degrees and your rear angle is say 155 degrees meaning the distance to the MLP is different. In the pic the speakers are pointed straight down, if possible tilt the tweeters toward the MLP.
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When I look at this pic I see your workstation the L and R speakers look fine (I know you brought the CC down a bit). The right surround speaker is about 110 degrees behind you, fine. You can place the left surround speaker on a stand to mirror it. The Genelec height speakers are not angled down toward the MLP and not in ideal locations. Given your MLP position I think a top middle/rear height configuration on your ceiling would work great as you have a high ceiling. If you get mounts similar to these you could mount the top middle channels above the MLP in alignment with your L and R front speakers (or a little more in toward the center) and point them straight down and the rear height speakers about the same distance (maybe a little closer to the MLP) as the ceiling lights in the middle of the room angled toward the MLP. Given your room I t think a 5.1.4 mix station will be fine for 90% of your projects. If someone wants a 7.1.4 bring the rear surround speakers out on a pair of stands and put them away when you finish so it doesn’t block the view of the fireplace from your lounger in your other system:
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@texbychoice
Can you post your system on the virtual system page? Thanks
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@thespeakerdude
Everything I have posted is factually supported
No, you have posted opinions, the facts that would support your opinions are very vague. You make claims about your creds and have posted zilch, not even a pic of your system. I think I know why you are an expert on "snipe" accounts.
Shoving a bunch of links into a post and demanding people read them is ridiculous. Why not just post a subscription to AES?
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@lonemountain
A 15 inch woofer costs nearly the same to build as a 10 inch, but everyone expects the prices to be radically different because a 15 is "more".
If the price is the same for any product offering "more" power, size, weight, etc. if the price isn’t higher consumers suspect shenanigans. Sometimes paying MORE is a badge of honor (keeping up with the neighbors, status, etc). I have seen members here like @ghdprentice actually post the prices he perceives that will let you into the rarified stratosphere of elite/reference/end game performance.
Face it, nobody that dropped $4500K on electronics plus $ on speakers want it bested by a $750 active speaker (the example Andrew Jones gave in the video). The people that splashed the cash need to defend their choices else risk being seen as gullible or whatever.
If a speaker company needs to charge MORE in order to be perceived as higher value or whatever, more power to them.
Case in point, HDFury sells a video device for 4K around $500. The NEW device for 8K video was priced around the same or a little lower. People complained on youtube it didn't cost more and you know how this story ends, an instant $100 price hike on the new model.
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@thespeakerdude
for trying to raise the knowledge of the group
You are striking out, you have 0 credibility, post your creds to get some cred.
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What amazes me is the level of intelligence expressed in this thread
Agreed, I gave out prizes earlier in the thread 😁
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@donavabdear
I feel like there is so much BS in the audiophile world.
To me the king of BS are measurements. I can understand BS in marketing, it is supposed to be pitched that way. Nobody ever says we are the second best company in audio. But publishing SINAD below the level of human hearing and then giving it a trophy? THAT is some BS. Then you have the variables, how was it measured and where and with what and by who. Then because you actually measured something now you gift wrap it in science which means BS is wrapped in more BS.
The BS meter was on tilt so badly AES had to draft new standards to replace the old BS:
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The BS that AES75 recognizes and attempts to address is that you need verifiable standards, not some whack job with a volt meter measuring stuff in his thread bare living room:
" AES75 is designed to be independently verifiable, using analyzers and microphones typically used by audio professionals. By being independently verifiable, AES75 provides system specifiers and users a much more enforceable metric to use in quotes and architectural specs.”
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@thespeakerdude
I refer you to the other threads here to discuss that other website, @donavabdear mentioned audio BS so I chimed in.
As for a "reality check" I am still waiting for you to post your system, your measurements, etc. So, reality check time, mine are posted in the virtual system area, still waiting on yours.
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@thespeakerdude
See this thread for more info, it is a long thread but thoroughly covers that website and amir participated and presented his take on things:
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@phusis +1
Thought you would like this video of a "dynamic" system 😲 (Make sure to check out the sub at the 23:00 mark)
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@phusis
Please chime in on the video I posted on 17.2.13 setup, would love your thoughts on the setup and of course the sub
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I use the same approach they used for the front channels, mirroring the front 3 channels above and below the screen (they used 5 instead of 3 because of the width of the screen). Having a top center channel just locks dialog in the center of the screen during a movie and anchors music mixes/upmixes as well.
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@donavabdear
There are home theater guys that do custom builds with the type of horn speakers they have in movie theaters and multiple monster subs of the type @phusis describes. The goal is not to "hear" it but to get kicked in the chest with SPL’s when watching or listening at reference levels. In terms of reflections/deflections I am not familiar with the Trinnov optimizer. When the guy was reviewing the Dante related gear in the rack a lot of it was DSP related. The Trinnov guy said how his team had to create a new set of filters to optimize the bass in that room as even the microphones needed had to be customized because they could not handle that level of bass. The room treatments are hidden behind the acoustically transparent covering on the walls.
When they talked about playing the Metallica concert at 120DB with no distortion I had to smile. I have that same disc in my collection in both versions, including the 3D. I can’t imagine 120DB levels for that entire show. But now that I saw that sub I have already started planning on getting two more to bring my system up to four. This is from a review of my Sunfire sub:
But the main thing - the manufacturer claims that at such a scale that kid on the coveted 20 Hz provides a sound pressure level of 110 dB, which looks absolutely fantastic. Surprising as indicators and power - 2.7 kW (!) output peak and 600 watts continuous power consumption of the network.
If I can get up to 110DB in my much smaller room it will be good enough for me.
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Breaking down that "dynamic" home theater.
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The one wave guide I have personal experience that clearly stands up and salutes is the one JBL developed for the M2. After that development they started trickling it down to their other speakers. I think it is amazing and here is Frank Filipetti breaking it down (1:15). If you check out Frank’s discography and sample his mixes the "proof" is in the result IMO:
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@kingharold
They are 18 cubic feet each but wearing a nice coat of Blonde Burmese teak veneer with solid teak and brass trim and tucked away in the corners where they need to be they don’t seem particularly obtrusive to me.
Thanks for posting this, the pics you posted are stunning. Some of the wannabes in this thread are keyboard warriors who are simply posers. Your handle is certainly appropriate from what I see in your system profile, nice job.
I would like to know more about the deep horn loaded bass you describe. What type of space do you need, budget, etc. Thanks.
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@phusis , Shane Lee was saying that the three ton riser they were sitting on was lifted by that beast. I think you could see the stunned look on peoples faces in the demo, like they just saw Jaws in real life.
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Thanks, what about this one:
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@closenplay
Thanks for your post, and appreciate your sense of humor. Would be great to check out your virtual system if you could post something. Do you have two systems, one for stereo and one for home theater? In honor of your five year anniversary of being a member here and your 52nd post:
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@donavabdear
I’ve spent millions on professional equipment through the years
No award needed for that milestone, respect, even if it was with OPM.
There is so much misinformation about equipment
Its good you joined this forum, what got me through the mysteries of the audio world was stumbling across the Dolby specs when I first got into this hobby with a 5.1 system. I have kind of had one eye open thanks to those specs regarding speaker placement and room setup.
The only way to be content in your system is to not listen to better systems,
What got me to be content was discovering audio "hacks". When I found out I could hack amp spending by going active and get crazy amounts of power for basically the same cost as a good passive speaker, KACHING! When I found out a $300 Zidoo Android box could hack a dolby vision output with my HDR PJ saving me $$$$ on DV content and a DV PJ (which are almost unobtainium) KACHING. I hacked needing to stock pile SACD discs by having a DAC that remasters any content to DSD (Sony knows DSD) KACHING. When I inevitably do lust after new gear (more subs at the moment) I can at least figure out another hack. For my four sub solution it will be getting a DSPeaker 8033 II ($350) instead of buying a new processor with 4 sub outs ($7K). Now, that is not to say if I hadn’t hacked it would be better, but I love every time I go to a movie theater and compare that system to my own and it is no contest in terms of SQ, mine is much more refined.
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With video we have gone from HD to 4K to 8K
With audio we have gone where? Form 44 to 96? Form 2 channel to surround to Atmos? Developments in cameras are helping video progress.
Regarding the log jam in making a recording sound dynamic maybe a better microphone will help alleviate the need for so much technology on the consumer end.
I would love to be able to go out and by a new 8K TV, a pair of active speakers (or more) with an HDMI/digital/RCA input and a remote and be done.
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Can you give an example of a 3D movie that you think is a good example?
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