Powered speakers show audiophiles are confused

@kota1  The @thespeakerdude clearly works for a speaker company that doesn't allow social media so he's being careful not to give his credits. That's certainly understandable I'm very glad to learn from his experience as well as yours. Thank you both, you've been very helpful to me.

@invalid I suspected the same thing that the BHK was inconsistent somehow. I've changed cables AC and audio, changed AC circuits and the noise of the BHK has been the worst in the system, except for my JL Audio subs, which is another story. I replaced the BHK preamp with a Lyngdorf processor using its preamp and it was good and very quiet but no magic. I know the noise on my preamp is in the preamp because I can hear it in the headphone output with nothing plugged into the unit but AC. I believe I somehow got 2 noisy units, PS Audio offered to have it checked again on their dime, so I guess I'll give it a shot. I'm used to no noise at all perhaps that is the problem. Maybe I need to have my stereo equipment store to give me some other tube components to try at random. Thanks

@kota1 I did connect the Lyngdorf into the Genelec / ProTools system it was just fine I needed it in that system to use Room Perfect because the speaker positions were always a compromise if I looked at it as a stereo system but not from an object based system, the imaging is fine. 

A question I have in that regard on my professional system is my mixing position, I do sit much closer to the front left, center, and right speakers as does most every mixer I've ever seen. So my question is the disconnect between the mixing position doing the original object based mix and the Dolby listening chart you have posted that shows an end listener sitting in the middle of the room? Thanks

 

@thespeakerdude I realize this but does it make sense to mix at one position and listen at another? Just thought that was an interesting thought, makes me think that so many things we do in sound has a coating of silly mythology in it.

@thespeakerdude Am I correct to assume that Dolby is counting on the listener to use time alignment algorithms in the everyday playback system? The difference in original mixing position and final listening position is probably about 5 feet difference in a typical room. You saying the sound is dominant corresponding to the L,C,R direct sound is interesting because in 5.1 the L,R, surround speakers play a bigger part and in music sometimes a critical part if the mixer is willing to take chances. Based on the best mixed Atmos music I've heard it really sound like a big stereo mix and the brave mixers were wearing the same hat as the early stereo mixers (Beatles) who panned hard L,R info commonly. Active speakers have different time arrival info than passive systems if Dolby does not assume DSP in every system the emperor has no clothes, if you know what I mean. Object oriented sound panning info. works no matter what the acoustic environment.

This is a great example of the silliness that audiophiles live under. They worry about time alignment to within ½ inch but active passive circuits have at least 4 milliseconds of latency in the original recordings if there are digital and passive circuits involved, there is no way to see or hear that much time differences because it is invisible to the post production mixer on movies or live recordings. 

@kota1 This thread did cover those topics but they are all threaded together with the ideas of proper speaker driver practices in general. All these topics happen when you mix active and passive products, we have been looking at the weakness of my active JL Audio 113 subs (d class amp) , the weakness of my BHK preamp tube ( noisy but a wonderful sounding tube component). I’ve tried to keep my general idea of synergy by buying PS Audio’s best components and Focal / Naim components just as synergy is achieved I fully active systems of the same maker like my Genelecs. So all this ideas are what you have when you try to compare and contrast synergy in a music system. And besides I’m new to home stereo and I have you guys to pick your brains, if I started different threads I wouldn’t have learned near as much.

I think I’m going to sell a building to a stereo company, so I’m going to be able to buy equipment for free I’ll just take it off the price of the building at a great discount. Couldn’t pass that up. I’m taking your advise and waiting for a while and learn more before I buy some better equipment.

@kota1 I do tend to be a little disjointed sorry, I assure you I've spent many years in college studying the physics of sound as well as working as a sound engineer acoustical ,recording, mixing and production sound, I even did a little research of acoustics and water currents, it was kinda interesting to me but no one else and the math got very difficult very fast. The thing I do know about sound is how to capture it with microphones, the speaker is the opposite of a microphone applying reverse acoustic principles to microphone and speakers shows some simple truths.  The world of audiophiles is great and I've really enjoyed seeing intelligent people be so passionate about it. For the last few years I've been reading the magazines and following some forums as well as talking to a high end stereo shop owner and the conclusion I've come up with so far is the audiophile community is really ran by the marketing of the magazines. Psychology in the perception of equipment and sound quality is much stronger than many are willing to admit. The mythology in the audiophile world is embarrassing. Imaging the huge amount of vibration the amplifier must go through living on the inside of the speaker cabinet at a loud rock concert and imagine a $25k equipment rack stating it helps the musicality of the song. 

It is a tough argument stating that equipment shouldn't be made for each other, especially the amp and speakers, the DAC and the streamer, the speaker position and the room geometry. I don't even have an option of buying a first rate system that is made for each other (other than the Steinway Lyngdorf). With what you know about powered speakers and their clear advantages how can that be justified other than pure creed and pure conformist mindset of the audiophile community. 

@kota1 I've met Tom and he was kind, I've got into some disagreements with him on Facebook but he has a really good heart. Thank you for the book reference. 

 

@I don't know THX Studio Certification, I do know certification are simply a way to make money. Certifications like awards Emmys and Oscars, CAS awards are just to get a stamp of approval from peers. It really doesn't mean anything, having an experienced acoustics person look at your room is the way to go but certifications are only a way to make money for the certification company and Tom.

@thespeakerdude Question for you, seems that dampening factor is a very misunderstood stat, and it has direct factors corresponding to active speakers. My Question for you is, is it possible to get dampening factor correct unless the speaker driver is directly connected to the amp and that system is tested together. Isn’t it impossible to have a real idea of dampening factor unless the amp is connected to a specific driver with a specific speaker cable. Isn’t this an incredibly important factor in designing speakers, another reason why speakers and amps not being designed for each other is utterly silly.

@thespeakerdude So sorry here is another question concerning dampening factor active speakers and mythology of audiophiles. 

The question is since dampening factor is super important how can audiophiles even consider this factor without the load of a real driver. I understand DF is the amps ability to stop and suck in a speaker driver but the stats of an amps DF is only part of the system you must have the particular load for the amp to see a DF rating that is real. I understand that manufactures want to standardize DF with a standard virtual load but isn't that really silly because of the huge variety of different impedances of speaker drivers at different frequencies today?

 

@thespeakerdude Perfect answer, thank you. DF ultimately = punch in the low end, to be overly simplistic. It would be fun to list silly things that audiophiles worry about, mythology, technical incoherence that is common today. 

 

@kota1 My guess I've owned 75 sets of wireless transmitters and receivers and worked with 1000s. All these systems were professional and expensive usually averaging about $5k each some more some less. If it takes that much money to create a high fidelity wireless system how do they put that level of quality in a wireless speaker, I think the answer is they can't. The companies I dealt with were wireless microphone manufactures, Zaxcom, Lectrosonics, and sometimes Shure. 

The problem is not the technology it's the FCC, Federal Communication System, they have to coordinate all the frequencies zooming through the air. 

@kota1 I took 6 years of of math and physics in college all pertaining to electronics and sound today I've forgotten 90% ya I'd call that confused. I love Dynaudio but I wonder about a company that can go with a wireless option and still sell such a cheep speaker since I know what wireless circuits cost, that means that the wireless option is not as good as a wire and there will be compromise from the start.

A few things confusing in the audiophile world:

Vibration dampening systems like very expensive equipment racks

Not buying speakers and amps designed for each other

Custom fuses

Expensive AC cables

Speaker cable lifters

Records

DACs that will let you listen to 256khz

Thinking you have a golden ear

Pace Rhythm and Timing

DSP fixing a system

Not understand acoustics

Speakers near walls

You can hear 20khz, you can't unless you are a baby

The music originally recorded at the recording studio was done by people that care about the things you care about in your system

psychological factors, confirmation bias = audiophile world more than you think.

@kota1 Also as far as wireless I assumed you and the man on the video were talking about transmitting the main signal vie RF or bluetooth to the speaker from the wireless transmitter that is a far different story than using a code like FM Play or a format like that using wifi for Roon of something like that is very different than sending the entire spectrum of music via a transmitter and receiver via RF. 

@thespeakerdude Were these wireless connections RF or were they a coded signal like bluetooth or the like. I can't imagine such a cheep circuit in an RF transmitter with no compression. And of course the FCC is squeezing wireless microphones into oblivion with it's huge sale of RF spectrum to large companies and outlawing people with hundreds of thousands of dollars or wireless equipment that just happens to be in the wrong block. The FCC during the last administration was very cruel to people who owned equipment like churches and performing arts buildings that needed good RF. 

@kota1 That is a great point, if you spent the money on acoustics rather than equipment. I think the answer is you would be surprised how good some lower priced speakers can be. Paradigm for instance has Canada pumping in lots of money because they are partnered with the government for acoustic research giving Paradigm an unfair advantage against other speaker manufactures. Very few manufactures can afford to build with beryllium. My Paradigm B speakers are 7k each for surround sound speakers but they really hold up as a main speaker with a sub. All to say small speakers with a good sub can sound great. So yes putting money into the room is a good idea, with 1 huge caveat. Acoustics is not a science in that it's completely objective like speaker cables there is a lot of science that can't quite state that this room will sound good. A room that is 12 x 18 x 8 is practically impossible to make sound good because of so many common denominators some rooms have no hope and can't be fixed unless you make them very very dead and move the speakers very close to you effectively wearing headphone with speakers. 

"A matter of personal taste". We both know you need good cables that shield RF and we both know that smart and reasonable people list their cables as components but in blind tests no one can tell the difference, sure everyone has a story about the audiophile who takes the test " ok are we now using the good cables or the bad ones" and they get it right. That is not a good test a good test takes the physiological testing out of the equation. When you look down the grocery isle at the market and see a beautiful woman then you realize it's your wife that is a good honest test, not setting up a picture of you wife and your old girlfriend with all the psychological bagger they both bring into the picture. The things I mentioned in confusion are not scientifically valid unless you are selling them then somehow they have all the science in the world on their side. 

@kota1 

I know people don't buy on scientific specs but when you go into a boutique stereo store  there is pressure to appear that you enjoy the finer things in life and to validate your own confirmation bias which stereo stores and magazine marketers are very good at. The psychology of stereo buying and wine tasting are the same, think about that in stereo listening along with wine tasting blind tests don't pass the test but the built up to the psychology fallacies are easy see in retrospect.

"people generally prefer a smooth flat in room frequency response. You can look that one up to confirm." Sorry brother, one of the golden rules of acoustics and studio architecture is that no one prefers a flat room. The speaker DSPs put out a flat curve, this is very simple subtraction and addition to simply make the curve seem flat and the DSP marketing people have let most everyone to think flat is good sounding it's not. Even if there is a good article on Google that says flat it good that doesn't mean it's true, I know that they can't write anything on the internet that isn't true but it does happen some times.

Here is the difference between what you guys are talking about and what I’m talking about. It is relatively easy to build a room that will give a flat room response at the mixing position tested on an expensive test microphone usually around $5k or so from a full range speaker that is playing back a simple full range sweep tone. I’m not talking about manipulating the speakers what ever they may be to produce a flat response or a slightly downward response, the curve is simple to create. Just plot the function then add or subtract the frequencies to produce the desired curve, that is a world away from what I’m talking about.

I mentioned it before but John Storyk said himself that flat studios sound bad, so he doesn’t build them he’s been the top studio designer for going on 40 years he used a lot of science to get his results but left room for art and creativity. This has so much to do with immersive audio a flat room is not a DSP flat room what you are really saying is I’m screwing up my wonderful speakers to fit my awful room with DSP (well some DSPs) Im in my second hour of tones for my "room perfect" DSP and it has a rating of 98% for my Yamaha or my Anthem DSPs it takes about 5 min at the most. I don’t know the Trinnov but I didn’t get one because they used a very old i3 processor and I knew that if the readings were so complicated why would they use such an old processor for a new technology. Anyway it is the goal to make a room that the DSP does very little and you like the sound. I was in perhaps the most hailed studio in the world and it was far from flat the studio nor the control room but no one can’t say that thousands of gold records billions of dollars and lots of beautiful music wasn’t made there. Good sounding rooms are not flat, if we wanted flat rooms we should simply print them with a big 3D printer and sell them as audiophile listening rooms that are acoustically flat, they would sound awful. Now if you guys do start printing "audiophile rooms" I want in on some of the profits, it was my idea first.

@thespeakerdude ​​​​@kota1 Really looking forward to the world premier of your new YouTube channel and podcast. I think it should be called "The final word in sound". You guys could argue for an hour each week, it would be perfect!

Suppose we did build 3D printed rooms that we could take time to fine tune everything about the sound, would the color of the room make a difference would the kind of drink you had made a difference in how you enjoyed it (caffeine does change hearing) if the room sounded "perfect" but was ugly would anyone enjoy the sound? The more I think of building the perfect room the more I understand why Storyk rooms are so beautiful, it’s for the same reason why I love my Mercedes AMG GT-c and love the way it performs it’s not the fastest car ever but it helps me understand the saying "Contentment is poverty of desire". I love this car in a the way I want to love my sound system, really exciting, keeps me on the edge of my emotions, and a little dangerous. I’m not there yet but you guys have given me some good ideas. Thanks

 

@o_holter I love tube amps also, I don't know of speakers that are made for tube amps, the dampening factor for a solid state and a tube amp would be very different, generally tube amps don't have near the power of SS amps of course, it there were speakers that were designed for a tube amp that would be a big deal and I would go out and buy it.

@kota1 is right outboard crossovers, at line level, then amplified to a speaker that was designed for that particular tube amp would be amazing. @kota1 probably knows of a company that does just this, that's the answer.

@thespeakerdude Last night I worked on my Genelec system, I changed wiring, moved some equipment around and changed some setting on DadMan which is the patch bay for ProTools, I played a DVD and was amazed I did something accidental and my Genelec sub came alive, I did your suggestion of combining my big JL Audio subs with that system but they didn't work well together. Last night after I put everything back together the Genelec sub shook the house like it ought to, and now  that system sounds like it should.  In your experience with speakers why are the subs so important, now everything sounds dialed in the sub changed everything the Genelec speakers always did a great job at imaging of course but now they sound so much more musical, the important ambiences I have also sound much better simply because of he sub. What is the technical reason why the low frequencies make the mids so much better. I added a JL Audio under my dest for my Elacs and it made a world of difference, I knew it would I just don't know why, I bet you do.

@holmz Oh ya I'm all for it, I bought their best speakers 9h and 4 of their Persona B bookshelf speakers for my surround sounds then I bought their best ceiling speakers. I'm all for doing the best you can! I even bought 10 channels of Anthem amplification and another Anthem receiver for another surround system.

@thespeakerdude I like your answers about bass helping the entire spectrum of music, yes it is warmer and more tube like, less harsh. Seems to me that the bass being important in the beat is not the reason because even ambiences sound better. Even your last reason that proper bass frequencies give a musical foundation in harmonic ratios doesn't really hold water either because in nature bass notes aren't tuned to the other frequencies in the environment. Could it be that bass simply needs to be in what we hear to make any environment more pleasing, just like the rumble of records makes them sound better. Odd that we strive to make record groves more accurate and 16 ohm speakers take the tube effect of amps away when all the time it is the low frequencies that we enjoy in tube amps and records. 

The movie Ford vs Ferrari the engines were "tuned" to match the music and the music was changed in pitch to match the engines in some scenes, it won an Oscar for sound. Think about our happiest times in life, in your Moms arms as a baby, in a safe bed, wrapped in a blanket sitting by a fire, listening to music in a great building. And then think about bad times in your life, school rooms, cheep tinny cars, the screechy voice of your teacher, a cold icy night, hospital rooms all places where there is very little low frequencies and an abundance of high frequencies. Just saying. 

@kota1 ya I don't think bass makes midrange sound better because it is part of a harmonic foundation, of course I'm not talking about music I'm talking about comfort in listening to your entire sound system. I understand how fundamentals, harmonics 5ths, 3rds and the rest of musical chords work. I not exactly sure but it seems like this ideas isn't true because in ambiences in nature or used behind a movie scene the low end sets the tone for content feelings high end sets the tone for bad feelings to be overly simplistic . Actually sound in movies is a lot like music ambiences random sounds can be signals to make you comfortable, or discontent, it's not about harmony in chords it's more about the lack of assaulting mid and high frequencies and the addition of warm low end when you are supposed to feel a certain way. As far as why the bass makes such a difference in midrange in music I do think harmonics help but remember there are always harmonics and good sub energy is not about the fact that there is low end present but the way the low end acts in the presentation of the music, in other words bad sub sounds don't help even though the harmonics are still there. 

@kota1 ya I don't think bass makes midrange sound better because it is part of a harmonic foundation, of course I'm not talking about music I'm talking about comfort in listening to your entire sound system. I understand how fundamentals, harmonics 5ths, 3rds and the rest of musical chords work. I not exactly sure but it seems like this ideas isn't true because in ambiences in nature or used behind a movie scene the low end sets the tone for content feelings high end sets the tone for bad feelings to be overly simplistic . Actually sound in movies is a lot like music ambiences random sounds can be signals to make you comfortable, or discontent, it's not about harmony in chords it's more about the lack of assaulting mid and high frequencies and the addition of warm low end when you are supposed to feel a certain way. As far as why the bass makes such a difference in midrange in music I do think harmonics help but remember there are always harmonics and good sub energy is not about the fact that there is low end present but the way the low end acts in the presentation of the music, in other words bad sub sounds don't help even though the harmonics are still there. 

@kota1 you posted a picture of Titanic going down, I was there for 6 months in Mexico filming that monster. There was only one side of the ship made so every once in a while we would have a flipped day, that meant everything was switched like looking in a mirror, we did that when we needed to do a scene with odd numbered lifeboats. The men's hair was parted on the opposite side as well as all their clothes being buttoned on the opposite side, they shook hands using their left instead of their right and all the writing was backwards. The tricks in movies show how much psychology and science are used together to achieve an outcome, just like sound, except sound is more psychological because it's invisible.

@kota1 Oops, I didn't look at it much because you mentioned Titanic.

 

@kota1 My BHK 300 mono blocks are hybrid amps tube on the input and MOFSET on the output they are pretty good (about $15k) or so, likewise my 9hs are hybrid the mid and high frequency are passive and the bass has 4x 8inch drivers that are powered by an amp with peak power of 2700W. These speakers should have lots of bass on their own, I think my particular speakers are simply turned down to much because when I push the sweep generator built into the speaker it gets VERY low 19hz they say and it feels like it but with normal music the low end is very poor. I can’t power the low end of these speakers it is all internal. These speakers were reviewed very well by everyone they should be better. I’m going to tear into them myself now that the warrantee is over. The sunfire amp I don’t think is an upgrade to my BHK 300s, I could be wrong though, and Bob Carver made some really awful PA speakers/amps 35 years ago.

Couldn't agree more, I think room acoustics is like the story of a movie if you have a good one even a bad movie or poor stereo equipment won't sound bad but it you have a bad room even or a bad story no amount of fabulous special effects or great equipment will make much of a difference. 

My wife has a big laser I'm going to design some hopefully good looking absorption frames for my back wall, put some diffusion on my ceiling and  I'm going to put a remote on my refrigerator it's so noisy. I want to really try to make my absorption and diffusion look a little better than what you usually see, let me know if something comes to you. Thanks 

@m-db Thank you for the link, I've mixed hundreds of orchestras and I always bump up the cello and bass, when I did that to me it always made everything else sound better just like a sub makes vocals better in a stereo system. In an orchestra the beautiful instruments are not the 1st violins but the low instruments. When mixing group vocals the big mistake is to over feature that star lead singer and not do most of the mixing of the lower range vocalists. 

@kota1 Also the reason I told the Focal story was that I was exploring mythology in audio, I had a unique position that I had just weeks previously been in recording sessions with the vocalist in maybe the best recording studio in the world with definitely the most famous recording engineer in the world with someone that had a voice that I knew every aspect of, that is a unique position that has only happened to me once in my career. I went to a stereo store that sold more Focal speakers than anyone in the world I spoke to the guy who personally sold more Focal speakers than anyone in the world and I told him those Focal speakers had to much sharp high end, I don't think I could have said that with so much practical experience at any other time about anything else I knew the recording was not what I was hearing at the studio. Why do Focal speakers and headphones have such a good reputation, I spent $8k on focal headphones and a Naim Unity Atom HP amp (Focal company). I was wrong about my purchase because I fell into the trap of believing the mythology. Mythology is a lot of what this thread is about.

@thespeakerdude 3 years ago I almost bought the Focal sopra N°3  speakers I went to Upscale Audio in So. Cal. and listened with some tube amps, Katherine McPhee's Jazz CD had just came out recorded and mixed by Al Schmitt so I knew exactly how her voice should've sounded (I worked with her for 4 years on Scorpion TV show) so I used those tracks as my reference. The speakers sounded very harsh and edgy way to much cutting high end, at that point I went to another stereo store in LA "Shellys" and listened to the Paradigm speakers that also used beryllium for their drivers, The Paradigm speakers were much warmer without the harsh cutting high end. As you said the harsh high end may be from distortion but then why does Focal have such a great reputation? The Genelec "The Ones" speakers I have are a revelation they are getting better and better the more I fuss with them, I've had a few cars in which the longer I had them the better they got this is also a wonderful attribute to have when it comes to speakers. The Genelecs for now are clearly way ahead of the Focals.

@kota1 I started this thread with 2 ideas, the first was to get an idea of how audiophiles were embedded in silly mythology, I thought it was a given that everyone knew that amplifiers and speakers should be made for each other, and the second idea was that since of course powered speakers are superior to randomly partnered speakers and amps what about the vibration the amp is going through inside the speaker along with vibration systems that nearly every audiophile spends good money on. Just yesterday I saw an equipment rack that sold for $75k. These ideas are mutually exclusive and I wanted to see audiophiles try to justify what was clearly unjustifiable.

I don’t see the problem with other points being brought up with such a general idea in the opening post. If the first post said "does anyone have experience with Steinway stereo systems" well then yes that’s pretty specific. Acoustics and speaker placement does include a lot of mythology in audio. I spent a lot of time in college studying math and physics and the things I remember decades later were stories by the professors that may have only had a slight reference to the subject of the day, I say fine.

@kota1 When I bought the Focal Stella’s and the Naim amp I was thinking that they made these units for each other the Naim Adam HP edition has many upgrades above the normal Adam Unity amp the Stella headphones were upgraded around the same time seemed to me like these should have been made synergistically Focal and Naim / Anthem and Paradigm etc. I’m not sure I can use my Naim for it’s streamer somewhere else and buy a tube headphone amp and save my headphones, they are to analytical. Do you see the connection between the headphones and the headphone amp being made by the same company and speakers being powered by amps that have been made for them?

@thespeakerdude It doesn’t seem like a very hard problem to create a spreadsheet about speaker drivers, amplifiers, crossovers, cables, etc. and come out with  a compatibility number. I understand the changing variables and functions of curves associated with speakers but it’s not that hard.

Take a very well respected speaker like Sonus Faber how can I buy an amp for it without gambling, sure I maybe able to listen to a Sonus Faber but very unlikely I’ll be able to test it with the amp I want and then how would I ever know if that amp is pushing the speaker to its ultimate potential. I think the emperor has no clothes in the entire audiophile world, very frustrating.

@kota1 You brought up the TV show "Lost" I turned down that show and 3 of my friends worked on it and got fired, it was run by producers that didn't understand why they couldn't shoot next to a freeway in Hawaii and not hear it on the tracks. They literally went through 7 sound mixers on that show. The producers thought you could push some buttons and turn some knobs that would take out anything unwanted on the recording, why besides being typical idiots they saw things on shows like mine on CSI Miami that was alway using sound in impossible ways. Sound is invisible and sexy and practically no one understands it that's why there is so much mythology around it even on this forum. 

@kota1 I agree with @thespeakerdude in general passive speakers that have amplifiers matched to them is definitely level 2 audio, I imagine the only reason you would make a speaker that way is to really cater to very high end people, the manufacture would be limiting its self by designing the idea that this amp only goes with this speaker, you and I know that is ridiculous but it seems most audiophiles don't think in terms of physics but fun and status. Best practices in speaker building are not interesting to audiophiles, try to name another industry that you can spend $100s of thousands of dollars on pieces that weren't made to fit together.

Sorry but the host of this video didn't really have a clue there were many clues one was he said the JL Audio CR-1 was a JL sub amp and they had turned them off well there weren't any JL subs there and the CR-1 is an analog crossover, it's actually a very cool piece of gear you may be interested in, look it up it is a crossover between the stereo subs and the home theater subs, and LFE channels, it's a one of a kind unit and I'm surprised you don't own one. Also he mentioned the speakers were made for the Mac amp he used that phrase not in a precise manner, it's a hugely powerful amp and the speakers needed a hugely powerful amp like that one to work them. Im sure that in no way is that amp and the drivers in that speaker designed for each other in any way except for broad functions like total power and probably being about to go down to 2 ohms without going belly up.

@thespeakerdude I'm sorry for even making you think of that. Thanks for the answer. It would be a frustrating project because it's practically untestable.

@kota1 why would I be shopping for those speakers was because at that time 3 years ago I didn’t have all that equipment (also you got most of the specks wrong, I’ll give you a list). I’ve put about $500k in sound equipment in the last 3 years about $200 for the mixing system and about $250 for the home theater in my room plus 14 TVs and another atmo system in my Theater and another small system in my family room. I wanted to listen to the best Focal speakers they had at upscale audio and I was prepared to buy them if they were good but they weren’t , when I heard the Paradigms they were unquestionably better in the first 2 seconds. I’m going to listen to a Steinway B system and some Sonos Faber speakers, (may have to go to LA to do it). I want a system that I don’t want to improve on It may be that I just get new subs and stick with my 9hs they have excellent mid and high frequency. I’ve always loved Sonos Faber but I haven’t heard them in 10 years.

My 2 cents on JBL, I’m from recording, every studio when I was coming up had JBLs I though they all sounded wonderful, I have a little set of powered JBLs they sound great. I heard Hardens (JBLs concert system) inside their big building and it was amazing. They are like any other big company they have a line on the very best cutting edge tech it’s simply a matter if marketing will allow them to put it out at this point in time at a certain price point. That’s why when your Sony headphone amp sounds great I sure your right Yamaha is the same way they don’t really make big moves in the audiophile world but they could dominate it if they wanted to but it wouldn’t make enough money because of volume, hopefully that will change. Also the more I work on my Genelec system the better it gets.

My listening room equipment:

Lyngdorf 60.2 processor

2x PS Audio BHK 300 hybrid amps

PS Audio BHK hybrid Preamp

PS audio Direct Stream DAC

PS audio Perfect Wave SACD transport

2x PS Audio P20 Power Regenerators

Paradigm Persona 9h main speakers

4x Paradigm Persona B surround sound speakers

Paradigm Persona C (center) speaker

4x Paradigm ceiling speakers

2x JL Audio Fathom 113 v2 Powered subs

JL Audio CR-1 Bass crossover (for sale)

2x Anthem MCA 5 channel Amps

Sony SACD Transport

Panasonic 9000 DVD Transport

A ton of AC cables speaker cables racks

2x Isolated AC circuits with AC boxes

Naim Atom Unity HD Amp

Focal Stella headphones

And the ProTools, MATRX Studio, HDX, Avid S4 Control Desk, 11x Genelec 8351B SAM "the ones" powered speakers, Genelec Sub, Yamaha CX-A5200.

Also I have to say in your article about the JBL speakers the mixer said

“The 708P monitors never deceive me and always make my mix sound bigger,” That’s what I disagreed about with Brian the owner of the mastering room because you don’t ever want to mix on speakers that make the sound bigger smaller fuller clearer more musical more coherent or any superlative word. When mixing you want to make the sound as it actually is, accurate is what mixers are going for not sound great on a great set of monitors no way. This is why mixers don’t use expensive speakers, and today mixes may be done in several studios, for a mastering house it doesn’t matter because they are always in front of the same speakers so those speakers become your reference no matter what quality of monitor they are.

 

@kota1 Yes I did ask an you gave me some choices but my BHKs are about 8 times more expensive and are hybrid. PS Audio sells audio equipment based on cost of material, everyone says their equipment compares with more expensive equipment but PS audio really does and it’s hybrid which is a must a tube front end is the most pleasing sound to me and SS back end gives the punch that is nearly impossible for an all tube amp to accomplish. My amps are very good the only other amp that is interesting is the new Macintosh hybrid, they are hybrid for the same reason, I do want another preamp, and I have to get the hum out of my subs so maybe new subs. I’m very happy with the mid and high end on the 9hs and I’m happy with the JL subs I could live with them for good but the stupid hum I just bought a new DAC the PS Audio Mk 2, PS has a great return policy I got 4200 off of an $8k DAC I have to wait another month for it.

The best purchase I made was the Genelec system, love it when a system gets better and better. in the home listening category the best purchase was the BHK amps and the Direct stream SACD transport it is so clean and sounds so good that’s why I bought the new DAC from PS Audio they are making all their new equipment with galvanic isolation, (I know that not a new concept but it really was amazing on the Direct stream transport). I didn’t like the BHK preamp mainly because it is so hissy but the biggest problem is it sounds great, I use the Lyngdorf as a preamp and it sounds fine but when I put the BHK preamp in the system it really really sounds great that is so frustrating, The BHK hiss is much lower now maybe the tubes are facing the full moon or something like that, I hate tubes just love the way they sound. I took out the JL Audio CR-1 it is a great idea but It did cloud the overall sound just a little bit, and I’m fighting for all I can get. I use the Yamaha 5200 processor because I can do anything with it so if someone wants to connect anything to my Genelec system it can do it, it has no effect on a mix in that system that would go through Protools and the MTRX Studio. The Lyngdorf is good I guess it hasn’t changed my life and none of the room correction algos have done much which is good because I don’t have any big problems in my room because of its shape and size.

I told you how I have to do a pretty big upgrade on my system I think I’m going to get a good preamp some new subs and maybe new speakers. Yes I would love to invest in speakers and amps that were designed for each other but I don’t think they exist with very few exceptions at or about the $100 to $150k speaker level. Sonus Faber to me makes beautiful speakers both musically and aesthetically pleasing. I’ve always made good choices in professional audio equipment but in audiophile equipment it is another animal and it’s not always possible to audition equipment, you just have to hope and ask more experienced people.

@secretguy Let me ask you a simple question, is it smarter to buy speakers and amps made for each other or not made for each other? Considering the many variables in speaker drivers, amps, and crossovers isn’t it important to have all these components work together especially if you are spending substantial money?

@kota1 I’m probably a bit slow but I just saw what I’m probably going to listen to That is the Sonus Faber AIDA 2 & McIntosh MC901 Tube/SolidState Amplifier Since Macintosh bought Sonus Faber they may be able to voice the speakers just like an active speaker that would be the best, I know Macintosh has passed through some good and bad hands in it’s history but this new amp is really turning heads and it is hybrid (the way tube amps should be) it’s also $35K the speakers are $160k and my dealer can get them, I think this is a winner. At least there is something out there in high end other than Steinway that is made for each other. What do you think?

Passive speakers- crossovers in cabinets no amp

Active speakers -no crossover in the cabinet 

Powered speaker - amp in the cabinet 

I've been using these terms incorrectly sometimes, sorry. 

I do like Bryston they've always been a good company used their amps in one of the very first digital audio workstations years ago.

I'm looking for a high end system that I don't have to think I can do better, I don't care about flipping equipment every month. If you can find a high end system great but as I've said the audiophile manufactures don't want to make high end powered systems they have to much to loose when people figure out amps and speakers should be made for each other. Concert speakers are different animals than audiophile speakers as well as studio speakers. It seems that even the Macintosh amps and Sonus Faber speakers aren't made for each other. Only Steinway makes high end active systems ( high end over $200k) as far as I know.
But then again I'm slow. 

 

That’s a good idea I think it would be fun making appointments to listen to equipment but I’ll feel bad because I have to buy my upgrade from the guy who is going to buy my building so I don’t want to lead another audio dealer on. What is the proper etiquette for that? Thanks for your patience, I really do appreciate it.

@kota1 
This video seems like the way I want to go except better speakers, he spoke interestingly about law of diminishing returns near the beginning. I definitely agree with using synergy in equipment but then again I got the Naim / Focal headphones. I'm going to listen before I go with my big system. Last night the system I have now was completely quiet even the subs, infuriating just when I was going to throw $15k of subs in the street they get quiet, oh well. The 9hs with the JL Audio subs are pretty good I was listening to some Magico M3 speakers in Las Vegas and my 9hs with the subs were much better except that the Magico's had no subs and it's lower end had a better transition but not even close to as much punchy and effortless low end, the Magico M3s are just under $100k my speakers I have now are definitely better than those.

@thespeakerdude The dealer Im going through has been doing high end for 30+ years he can get just about anything he would have no problem with Macintosh and Sonus Faber, not sure he could get JBL, long ago JBL did have some very good high end speakers, I've always liked them.  I have a good room and it doesn't need much at all that's why all the DSPs I've used do practically nothing. I'm going to make my own absorption panels simply for a little less reflection in the corner and then put up some curbs on the ceiling for both systems then some damping in the book shelves behind my speakers might just put books in them they work perfectly. I'm also going to get a remote with a timer for my Sub Zero refrigerator in the kitchen in my listening room it's really noisy, I can turn off my air conditioning but it's really hard to get it quiet while it's running I just turn off the whole thing when I want to really listen. As far a money I don't care I want to have a listening system that is an event every time I listen to it. My wife wants me to buy the system I want (crazy I know) she says at least I'll have something the money won't just go up in smoke in the stock market.

 

 

@kota1 That is funny, Carver was definitely ahead of his time he just had a professional line of PA speakers and mixers that were really bad, I'm sure it wasn't his fault but still his name was on it. 

My BHK amps are tube front end and MOFSET back end that is actually a better system for an amp to sound better if it's connected to a passive or a hybrid speaker like my 9Hs the mid and high end are amazing the mid is a large beryllium cone, maybe 7 inches, even the expensive speakers aren't doing that, the 9h has fixed the edgy sound of the beryllium tweeter by using the grid in front of it, against my better physics judgement but it works.

The Macintosh amps are perfect for bi-amping but what if I bought the Macintosh 900 then also used my BHK monos for tri-amping the Sonus Faber Aida how much latency would you expect, I'm not sure if there are any digital circuits in those amps, and time alignment is of course very important. The Aidas are so beautiful I may not have a choice, I'm falling in love with their looks.
 

@kota1 ill try the Meridians but I think Speaker guy is right, even if Macintosh owns Sonus Fabre I don’t think these units are made for each other. One reason is because the Mac 900 is basically 2 amps welded together it weights like 180 pounds it’s a tube amp and transistor amp worked together, what’s smart is tubes for mids and treble for bass, What I’m not really buying is this simply a gimmick could I buy 4 amps separately and do better or did Macintosh build this amp as a more synergistic low / mid treble frequencies, impedance, load, timing issues in mind. And of course the main thing the crossovers are in the speakers, this amp is not made for the speaker if it was the crossovers would be outboard and line level.

@thespeakerdude i do have enough room for 6 feet around the speakers, I wanted to ask you what you thought about the depth gimmick, I love the physics and the sound of rear facing speakers and this design seems smart just a bit of mid and high frequency. With the design of the Aida the rear facing drivers don’t have a very big wave maybe 2 feet at most (500hz) not long enough to contaminate the front waves. Hearing the sound bounce off the back wall is key to creating a real sound source, Omni speakers have that quality.

Also Kota so well said this is playtime after 35 years of being totally focused on the most minute details of sound and now I want an amusement park of enjoyable listening.

@thespeakerdude I have thought a lot about the MBL speakers and for exactly the same reason I crossed them off. When miking orchestras you put the mics hopefully in the sweet spot of the instruments, French horns being the hardest, but I don’t listen to much classical, some but my system won’t be made for that. Omni speakers are wrong for that reason and because that’s not the way we record and expect instruments to sound now. It’s a little bit like looking at a beautiful actress in real life without makeup or the same actress with 170 people on a movie doing everything they can to make her look better than she really does. Multitrack recording was not cool for a long time until that sound was what was expected, all the musicians in a room with a stereo mic above the conductors head is the coolest and bravest way to record an orchestra but it won’t get you called back on the next recording. That’s why omni speakers are the coolest but not. How in the world did you get to listen to them, I’d give a lot to listen, guess I’d have to go to Munich. In a way that’s why the Aida speakers make sense. What is your view about their gimmick ?

@kota1 exactly, that setup wouldn't be what I would like but as I keep saying the only system that is designed like I think it should be is the Steinway, they say it may be the best there is but I don't want to set up 2 sets of main speakers in my listening room if I want to see a movie or listen to Atmos music. The Steinway system is absolutely its own deal, I spoke with my dealer he hasn't even herd of any hacks that would allow Lyngdorf equipment to jump in. Yes very frustrating the best practice of building sound systems for the home is not followed in the kind of system I want. The way around it is to buy really good equipment, this is what I did in movie sound, I think I had the most expensive sound equipment of any sound mixer, this was always a good investment for me. "do the best mixers have the best equipment or does the best equipment have the best mixers" this was a saying I often thought of. 
Ok moment of truth in our friendship.....How do you feel about cables?

@kota1 Cables, if they are so important leave them out and go with powered speakers. What I don’t understand about cables are 2 things one is digital cables they carry signals that are 1s and 0s the wonderful thing about digital is that it’s very easy to handshake between a 1 or a 0 as opposed to an analog signal which needs to handshake in a completely variable way which is much more difficult. AC cables do not reservoir power and then let it out in a particular way, well capacitors do that not AC cables. How do AC cables help in-between molex and a fuse. This question is a little like if you put a fire hose in-between two garden hoses is it going to achieve a better quality squirt. AC wire in the house is usually Romex then moves to a wall connector then to your $10k AC cable then to the back of your amp then to a skinny fuse then more connectors then to perhaps a trace on a PC board or wires that go to a heavy metal transformer where the AC is changes again. Speakers cables are the same, I’ve never heard how inserting a very short and expensive piece of wire will help the signal when on either side of the wire is of much lower quality, how can inserting a cable change the output on the other end? What I meant when I said I want an amusement park I want my system to be memorable and special experience. Definitely not electronic dance music, I like many different kinds of music but opera and dance music is last no the list for me. Jazz is on top and luckily it maybe the easiest for speakers to play and the most well recorded genera of music.

@thespeakerdude I don’t think I answered you Yes I do want to use the new speakers in the 2 channel and in the home theater system. I sent my BHK preamp back to PS Audio today hope they can get rid of the noise. I hooked up my amps to the Lyngdorf processor and it was simply not as good.

OK with our view of powered speaker having obvious advantages one of which is a more simple signal flow, how can I justify a preamp making a system sound so much better, my BHK preamp (hybrid tube) really makes the output sound like it has a little bit of beautiful reverb on it, it simply sounds more pleasing and beautiful. But the signal path going through a preamp is often unnecessary and adds complexity, how can it make the overall sound better?