@kota1 I got a few things wrong in my old age it was the 70th Oscars, and Paul McCartney and Sting sang at the 2002 Oscars for Pearl Harbor. That was also a great night because it was at the brand new Dolby Theater, we had to go through a lot of security because of 911 happening earlier. Celine Dion was perfect as usual the sound at the show was really good but it had to be quiet because of the broadcast of course.
Halle Berry presented the sound award and Black Hawk Down won with caned helicopters and looped dialog but whatever, seems like I would get over it. Halle Berry is very nice I was lucky enough to work with her on a TV series called Extant. Here is an funny story, the Director of Photography on CSI Miami would always yell out to one of his guys get me a "Halle Berry", when we finally figured out what that was it was a cup of coffee that had as much cream to have the same complexion as Halle Berry. Well there I was years later at craft service getting a cup of coffee with Halle Berry talking about Disneyland I think, I was pouring some cream in my coffee and looked up at her down at my coffee and back up at her beautiful face and just laughed to myself thinking how did this actually happen.
|
She is a wonderful woman and I would never want to say anything bad or embarrassing about her. It was just an ironic moment and something I think of often when I put cream in coffee.
Just yesterday I said ok to remix a movie in my studio here in Idaho. I said no at first but thought ok I may as well jump in. I could write a book about production sound on set but I'm no expert in post mixing, I have about 5 months to learn all I can. An old friend hired me and I really don't want to let him down. I guess all I'm saying is I better get my system up and running first class, and I've got a lot of learning to do. The mix will be in ATMOS 5.1
|
@kota1 Thank you that is really kind.
I think I need to do something really good that may mean doing the job in an unorthodox way who wants normal anyway. I do think my system needs to be as standard as possible I just want to do something special by the way I use the system, hopefully. I think I'll have to hang speakers in my room it will look awful, oh well.
|
@kota1 Thank you I’ll look into it.
@secretguy Look at it this way if you buy very expensive speakers and very expensive amps how do you know they work together with the best efficiency, impedance matching, power efficiency per driver, particular driver power matching, driver frequency matching, just to name a few things. The answer is amps and speakers don’t work together most efficiently if they are not designed to work together. If you don’t like speakers with amps built in then get speakers that are designed to be run with outboard amps and crossovers. How could this not make sense. Audiophiles are very confused.
|
@thespeakerdude Are audiophiles confused? I think I know the why of the answer. Great music is emotional when it sounds great and you've spent 100s of thousands of dollars getting there it's not only emotional but it crosses the line to something that stock traders call overconfidence bias as its name implies the person thinks they are right about the equipment they've chosen and how it sounds. Audiophiles rest on many emotions even peer pressure to show how cool their equipment is. All these emotions add up to someone who will pay $1000 for an AC cable 3 feet long that sits between standard Romex and 16 gage internal wire in an amp, not to mention the $400 custom fuse that sits between PC board tracers.
Moving forward in sound is a little like dating a beautiful woman you must be very careful of the emotional issues which make the actual practical issues more difficult to see and understand. Music is close to our hears and our wallets both are fragile and self serving.
|
Some notes on my professional mixing system. I'm very happy with "The Ones" from Genelec seems the professionals I've spoken to have really liked them, it's a little strange but monitoring speakers tend to stay in studios for a long time they aren't in and out like in audiophile rooms, "The Ones" are such a big advance studios and trucks would like to us them but simply can't. The biggest difference is the razor sharp imaging it's a little strange how tight a point source speaker can image it makes a lot of music sound like mistakes. It reminds me of how the makeup department hated HD video when we switched from film to video on movie productions film wasn't near as edgy and had a soft edge on the actors making them look better and thus the makeup department looked better, that's a bit how my new Genelec speakers are, I like them and they're not fatiguing but they aren't as satisfying as my home system. The active speakers are shocking every time I listen to them there is so much resolution in the music. I hear the term "highly resolving stereo system" that is sorta code for an expensive system that should show a higher level of wow to the music but these Genelec speakers show resolution higher than the speakers I've heard in the original recording at the original studio with the original musicians. I'm in a bit of a quandary trying to decide how to deal with this exactly like the Director of Photography people were when we went to HD video in the movies.
|
@kota1 I have a question for you, I'm considering moving my professional surround sound speakers away from the walls and hang them from the ceiling. It's a hard decision many companies only want 5.1 anyway so why am I worrying about 7.4.1 so much. Do you think good DSP can compensate for the speakers not being symmetrical to my mixing position, because Atmos is object based it would seem that DSP can fix the symmetry problems or am I look at that incorrectly I use Lyngdorf "Room Prefect" DSP. To me it seems that If I can get object based cues to work with a generally but not exactly symmetrical based system well an exactly symmetrical system would work as well, hope that's a little clear. Thanks
|
@kota1 Yes, during the discussion of this subject the main problem I see for active speakers is ease of repair, internal vibration and perhaps extra cost. Your chart shows exactly how the guesswork is taken out of proper speaker synergy.
Again we are talking best practices not looking at price points. To me this discussion is simply a commentary on the gullibility of the audiophile community. Everyone should know that synergistically amp and speaker drivers designed for each other is best practice either inside the speaker cabinet or outside, this has been known since at least 1967 but the sound equipment business can get people to mix and match and experiment with foolish ideas about how electronic components work together and simply sell more of this mythological puzzle to try to find audio magic.
|
@kota1 @thespeakerdude
Thank you guys for your notes I know you are both correct acoustically about my speaker placement. I very much appreciate your thoughts even though I sorta already knew the answer.
I don't understand the antagonistic people that want to jump up and criticize, hopefully that aspect of this forum will go away soon. I know both of your strengths and appreciate your notes. Thanks
|
@thespeakerdude Wow, I listened to Bruno’s talk about the Kii, He is making a speaker just like a microphone, I’ve had this idea for 30 years. The way directional microphones work is there is vents along 2 opposite side and when the sound comes in from the front the sound also comes in from the opposite sides but out of phase thus canceling out except the sound that comes from the front of the mic, the more directional the microphone the more vents there are. Rruno is doing the same thing in reverse electronically in the Kii. Condenser microphones are "active" dynamic microphones are "passive" interestingly enough the "active microphones" are of course better in practically every way but they need power (Phantom, usually 48v). Also all the audiophiles that understand this analogy are probably all using "passive" systems that we know in reverse ie. microphones are not nearly as good in sound reproduction.
|
@thespeakerdude I'm amazed I've never told anyone about that idea but Bruno did it, so neat. There are problems with interference tube designs, there are spurs in the rear polar patterns that are very hard to tame. Also off axis coloration is worse when the directionality is longest.
I also had designs of an optical digital laser microphone that could listen from miles away. Hope no one figures out that one.
|
|
@thespeakerdude on a side note can you please explain or send me to an article explaining why WMTMW drivers on speakers work at all concerning phasing? Especially the midrange drivers being 1 foot apart is seems to be silly. I'm sure it's something I'm simply not seeing I know many very expensive speakers use this system I just don't know why. Thanks. BTW I've never seen one of these speaker at a high end studio. I think after these Genelecs continue to cause big changes in speaker design you won't see WMTMW designs anymore.
|
@thespeakerdude integrating the subs, that's a good idea, it would be very easy. I'll let you know. Also your advise about the headphones is spot on, exactly right.
@kingharold Sorry it's been a while since I have listened to horns with respect to accuracy. Time alignment is working ok not great, I have to move the speakers physically to get everything right. DSP seems like a fix but not really. The front speakers are time aligned and they are imaging like I've never heard before the point source nature of the speakers is different than the Tannoy or Uri or older Genelec speakers I've heard in the past I very much disliked those older speakers but these new Genelecs are really different, they worked out imaging, transients, and dynamics to a much greater degree. As far as dynamic correctness, hard to answer that i don't think there is any speaker that can reproduce thunder or a real symphony because no microphone can record it, even our ears don't treat dynamics as opposed to transients in the same way. Probably dynamics will be the last sound variable figured out in sound playback because there is nothing that records the loudest sounds properly. I used the very best recorders and microphones available to record production sound on movies and TV I've recorded 100s of thousands of gunshots but none of the recordings sounded like the real thing. On the movie Pearl Harbor we used the real 50 caliber guns these guns were mounted on steal surfaces the ships they were so loud the camera operators had a hard time physically moving their bodies because of the sound pressure waves the guns created. Real dynamics, impossible.
|
@thespeakerdude You did educate me previously, and it is brilliant saying "as an audiophile thing it doesn't have to make sense". I know microphones and when there is poor off axis coloration the on axis doesn't sound as good because you are listening to the entire polar pattern off axis and all. Having your head in a vice is cool but no fun some of the most meaningful moments in sound are when you can share your emotional journey with your wife or someone like that who has let you spend so much money on this emotional hobby. MTM off axis doesn't work and the stereo image has at least 4 drivers trying to make you hear a 2 foot to 2 inch wave there is no way to get really good imaging with a non point source speaker, I feel like I'm really missing something still, the advantages are few and the disadvantages are huge, same goes with line array speakers. The blending of waves from midrange line array speakers is by definition a phase problem. Sometimes I feel like there is so much BS in the audiophile world.
|
Dolby Atmos and active speakers are the future. The AES should set up a foundation to start from as far as speaker setup and acoustic response to keep mixing consistent. 12 speakers are hundreds of times more complicated than stereo. The AES should leave room for creativity and they should get together with SMPTE to at least pick the channel that the Sub and center Chanels should take.
L, R, C, Sub, SL, SR, RL, RR, FLT, FRT, RLT, RRT easy.
|
@kota1 Maybe you can help me here about a question from the amazing sound system in the YouTube video. Wave guide high frequency, in my day was popular until they realized that near field deflection is another word for phase problems, how can such a high end room use a proven physics problem? Wave guide mid frequency speakers in that room are guilty of the same sin. A bass speaker like the one in the video make so much more sense than a huge horn that must deflect the wave at some point in the horn. Is near field reflections / deflections not a thing anymore?
|
@kota1 oh man that is a fun room. I would give a lot to hear it. Interesting to hear music played at a low volume in a room like that I have a feeling it would poor, firehouse filling a tea cup kinda story. Impossible to mix for a room like that. Makes me think of seeing a dragster driving down Main Street looks cool but everything else about the drive may be a compromise. A lot to think about. Thanks
|
Also
Dante is simply a network protocol that is used to send sound through a network cable it great for switching, There is no sound degradation and can connect to anything through Dante Control and Dante Via. Dante is the future.
|
@kota1 @thespeakerdude
When anything is put in front of a speaker the wave is deflected somehow, when you put something like window louvers or a horn to guide high frequencies the wave is deflected. Many have mentioned "wave guides" and acoustic lenses focusing the sound, well I thought that was a fad 30 years ago because of course waves interact poorly when they are changed and mingled. I understand the kind of filter some speakers put over drivers that look like a grill to break up the waves in a particular way but focusing the wave is never a good thing, we called it near field reflections back when all those speakers were tossed away. Are they back? Has someone discovered how to make waves interact and keep the amplitudes in tact after the focusing? Even the grill on my own 9hs has a high tech symmetrical design to defocus the beryllium tweeters and midrange from sounding to harsh that is done on purpose to smooth (distort) the high frequency I understand that but if the acoustic lens is a guide that focuses the wave there aren't there inevitable problems.
I always think of microphones when I think of speakers, once I was doing sound for a concert with Wynton Marsalis, I was a big fan and very excited to work with him. He told me to put a Sennheiser 421(a large diaphragm dynamic mic) down stage and that's all he said his trio would play into it, they would mix themselves as they got closer and farther from the microphone. Just like Edison did on the first recordings ever. Well as you probably guessed the sound was great. The sound was so good it left an indelible impression about how important phasing was I never forgot.
|
@thespeakerdude Great, thank you for that. What is a problem is longer wave guides or horns or anything that is trying to direct the wave. Call 1k a 1 foot long wave (close enough) 2k is 6 inches 4k is 3, at this point horns and curved boxes with computer curves easily confuse the wave by bouncing them in and around whatever kind of guide the designer has made, there is no way out of that sinareo. Horns are never ok, they may sound good but the huge difference in size of waves doesn’t allow a horn to accommodate multiple frequencies properly. A traditional cone driver is simply a piston that creates the wave but doesn’t redirect it, (except for the edges and things like that) as horns do. My Genelecs use the term wave guide but it’s really wave takeoff more than anything because the size of the waves and the depth of the high frequency and mid frequency voice coil throw is so much shorter, they aren’t designed to guide the frequencies like the Tannoy and the Uri’s of the past which sounded like everything was pumped through a bullhorn, even a multi million dollar showcases theater with an 80 inch sub has got this wrong IMO. The 80 inch driver is a perfect example, what would that horn have to look like well it’s impossible to make a horn that accommodates frequencies that large between 1 and 20Hz you would need 20 huge horns. In that video they described midrange center channels that used a curve to redirect the waves to the audience, this is a big compromise in a no compromise room. A great Director of photography I worked in the movies always spoke of the light he used as "them" he would always bounce, diffuse, cut and all the other things DPs do with light by thinking of light as little particles that bounces around, so I told him use one of my sound diffusers to bounce his light it only makes sense, he was amazed he hadn’t ever seen that before. The moral of the story is if you think of the sound as particles that interact with each other you would never expect to send them down a horn and expect to not have them interact. Hope that’s a tiny bit clear.
|
@kingharold On the contrary you are the audiophile who is not confused, you are the opposite of the normal audiophile who doesn't understand that a speaker and an amp/crossover should be made for each other.
|
@thespeakerdude what is your view on the damage the internal vibration inflicts on the amp fidelity in active speaker designs? Have you ever tested this.
|
@kingharold How did you get into active horn speakers? I would love to hear some not PA horn speakers. I think Im going to go to the audiophile event in Illinois in the spring, hopefully there will be some there.
|
@closenplay looking forward to checking out horn systems and omni speaker systems at AXPONA, thanks for the note. I have made equipment mistakes in my audiophile system because of my lac of experience. I've spent millions on professional equipment through the years and made really good equipment choices but the new audiophile part of my life is much more difficult. There is so much misinformation about equipment and so much grey area mythology. The only way to be content in your system is to not listen to better systems, seems like a sad endeavor.
Contentment is poverty of desire.
|
Ok ya got me Sennheiser is the best microphone manufacturer ever ( they also own Neumann). This mic has the capsule to close also but Sennheiser can support the mic with accessories like windscreens blimps and shock mounts that make all the difference. If you wanted to go high end look at this. Schoeps is also a very good company.
|
@kota1 This microphone has all of its capsules very close together that's good for phasing but bad for proper interpretation of direction. It's great that you can record each capsule on its own track but bad that it is designed for Adat / light pipe a format that is going away.
Surround recording should be recorded with a fake head in a binaural format because that is how we hear all other recordings are improper. They may sound wonderful but they aren't accurate by definition. I have done very few surround recordings but adding the channels by force for the XYZ axis information to be interpreted by your brain somehow to me seems like looking down the wrong path.
|
Not sure 8k video gives you other benefits aside from resolution like high resolution audio give you other benefits like sustained envelopes (a bell will ring longer).
@thespeakerdude You are right to say that a recording done with a dummy head has to be listened to on headphones, your job is to figure our why. All the directional information for a soundstage is in a binaural recording how come smart guys like you can't reproduce that on speakers with accurate time alignment, not from the speakers standpoint but from the brains standpoint. 35 years ago I went to and AES convention and one of the vendors was showing what they said was new technology in speaker object placement they said they had taped into what they called -head tones- to make it possible. Do you remember that at all it seemed to never really catch on but the demonstration was amazing we wore headphones and were given a haircut it really felt like we were all getting a hair cut simply through the sound.
|
@thespeakerdude thanks for the answer, I'm going to look into this more. I have probably 50 sets of headphones one must be open can't wait to do your test.
|
So my next movie, the camera is a head and shoulders the microphones are literally in the ears of the mannequin the eyes would be 50mm camera lenses. the head could be set on camera dollies and steady cams. When you watch the movie you would be a person in the story always with your POV. The movie would have to be watched with 3D glasses and headphones. Would this give an extra dimension into the story?
|
@thespeakerdude Thank you for that great DPA article about surround sound formats, DPA is also one of the very best microphone companies anywhere. This article and the YouTube video with it highlights the futility of microphone stacks of any type.
So we have to put on headphones every time we watch a movie, we could incorporate 3D and speakers in a standard headphone / glasses setup, Or we use our phones to set up a grid around our head that would allow lasers can send sound right in your ears, phones already grid your face, no problem. Next problem.
|
@kota1 I'm sure there have been no movies done in that way. Of course Jim Cameron movies are the best 3D examples. I was going to present binaural recording to Cameron but it would be to much of a jolt listening to sound from a real point of view in a movie. I worked in the same studio for the last 7 years as Jim Cameron while I was doing sound on CSI Miami and Scorpion in Manhattan Beach CA. That technique would not do well for multi camera shoots, and it's hard enough to get a boom mic over an actor let alone a human size head, it would probably be distracting to some actors also.
|
@kingharold Thanks for the story, you make me really want to seek out horns. Glad you understand active speaker synergy, I feel like it is a step into audio reality away from arrogance. I just can't imagine someone paying so much money for speakers/crossovers and amps that aren't designed for each other. You seem like exactly the opposite of a person who simply pays a lot of money for flashy audio equipment without considering the objective details.
|
@phusis i think you made a great point about what I said about @kingharold horn system with years of trial and error concerning amps with the proper speakers. What I'm preaching is the inconsistencies when audiophiles read a TAS article and spend $200k hoping their system is great. Audiophiles can do good research look at the physics, talk to people with more experience and then get the system wrong. That's ok getting things wrong really only enhances our lives getting things wrong for the right reason is life. We are not dealing with understood hard science in sound, microphones, speakers, etc. there will always be room for experimentation in the sound world.
A common theme in in the audiophile world that is so wrong is assuming that the sound engineer doing the recording and mixing is an incredibly dedicated artist who is painstakingly agonizing about every detail of the music. They are often on a time crunch like everyone else there are always many many compromises. Audiophiles are like people who watch House on TV they think the hospital assigned 3 doctors to work on your health problem, nope sound engineers are under the stress of business, time, and outrageously requests by artists who have no idea what they are demanding and will do detrimental things to the music.
Also microphones and original recordings aren't all they're cracked up to be even the best microphones aren't adequate to record very dynamic sounds like a gun shot, keys dangling, or a Saturn 5 rocket. I always used at least 2 or 3 mics for even simple gun shots usually full load blanks that are still much quieter than real gun shots one mic for the direct sound with the gain very low so the signal won't over modulate, another mic to record the first large reflection of the sound with a bit higher gain then another mic farther away to record the echo with hi win to give the acoustic space a little life. All these mics had to have a gain structure that assumed the signal was too dynamic for the mic/recorder and would be put together later in the recording process. There are no predefined levels to set the mics to you have to listen to the space and then guess on how loud the gun / sound is. Even the boom operator who are micing the shot may be holding the mic at a strange angle to accommodate a shadow or an actor who doesn't want the boom in their eye line, lots of compromise even on the biggest movies and recording studios always.
|
@lonemountain In production sound 90% of all our energy is to accurately record the actors dialog, we would like to use a boom mic like the Sennheiser MKH-50 all the time but when the stupid directors (yes I'm still bitter) shoot wide and tight shots at the same time we can't get a boom mic in and we have to rely on hidden mics or lav mics hidden inside the actors clothing. The boom operator memorizes all the lines and points the mic at each actor as close as possible to the camera frame line without entering into the shot or throwing a shadow on anything in the frame. The mixer blends all the microphones booms and lavs raising each mic when the actor speaks, it's a lot like playing an instrument that is the actors, we try to minimize background and any noise that would interfere with the dialog.
|
@lonemountain What do you think about the Steinway Lyngdorf Model B system. They have the same speaker philosophy as we do I think. There are some good short videos on their page.
|
|
@markw1951
Say you buy a 200k $ speaker system then add an amp (Nelson Pass A), is that amp the best it can be for that speaker? The answer is no, unless that amp was designed for each driver in that speaker it is not a perfect fit. The equation is very simple.
Also even the first real hi fi powered monitors that did well in studios the Meyer sound M1 had class A amps up to about 5W the rest was class AB a very high percentage of listening is below 5W. John Meyer told me that himself.
|
@lonemountain I have a feeling you know some of those guys, I got to talk to John Meyer for 2 minuets, I was star struck, the best part was I got to also meet Roger Nichols at the same workshop, I think it was at an AES convention about '85' or so. I worked with many of the biggest stars in Hollywood but those were the guys who were really cool to me.
Steinway Lyngdorf make every component and their speakers together in exactly the way this thread has tried to describe the best practices of system synergy. The other side of that synergy is the fact that I already have a 15K$ Lyngdorf processor and I couldn't use it in the Steinway system, also I love my surround sound speakers and I couldn't use them in this system.
|
@kota1 I think I have 2 of these units to run my surround sound Paradigm Bs and 2x channels on my Paradigm CC. Paradigm and Anthem are the perfect example of a company that should really make speakers and amps and crossovers made for each other. I don't know if I have the Gen. 2 units.
|
Ok @thespeakerfude @kota1 I have a test for you both. You have seen my home system (Not the mixing system) and I have a chance to give it a $200k upgrade, I love the high and mid that Im getting from my main 9hs I love the bass I'm getting form my JL 113 subs (but I really hate but buz) I hate the noise floor of my PS Audio BHK preamp, love my surround speakers. I don't want to mix and match equipment all the time I'd like to get really good non tube amp equipment with a very low noise floor that I can keep forever. The stereo part of the system must be top notch. I what would you guys do with my sound system. You both know how I feel that a system should work together the Steinway Lyngdorf systems are the perfect example. I do want tube sound without the stupid tubes. Thanks
|
@thespeakerdude @kota1
Thank you guys I admire both of you, you come at the problems from different perspectives.
My BHK 300 amps have tube input stages and Mofset outputs that's the way it should be tube output stages is the weakest part of tube amps, tube amps with very few exceptions are underpowered but what they have going for them is the distortion sounds wonderful. Also if you use the equipment a lot the tubes only last about a year, and degrade from day 1, I'm really tired of it. I think a new build thread seems like a fun idea. I do have that Lyngdorf processor and I'm going to put it back in my home system without the PS Audio preamp and DAC. All outputs are balanced, I just took out a JL Audio CR1 which is an interesting unit that divides the low frequency to optimize for stereo and home theater, but with the Lyngdorf I can program all that. The PS audio equipment is surprisingly good for the money I have all top of the line equipment from them but I've heard more expensive systems that were not nearly as good as mine. Every time I listen to a SS system I think tubes would sound better, there is just a warmth that feels so good at the end of the day. I think I might look at some of the better systems in this group and copy theirs, I really don't want to have a bunch of equipment that is not designed to go together. Steinway is the only company I can find that designed everything together, but it so expensive no one has it and a few people who know say it way over priced, no one says it doesn't sound good. Thanks
|
@invalid I'm no expert on tubes but it seems like your right. The tubes on my BHK preamp have been changed a few times a year plus I've bitten on the scam for super turbo wonderful tubes that of course cost more, those tubes did seem to actually change the sound and of course changes can sound good but I spent a lot of money on my system to be at least close to accurate sound when I change to designer tubes it seems very wrong to put in a tube and from that point on it degrades. I just took out my PS audio BHK preamp and replaced it with a Lyngdorf processor and noticed more defined imaging and a big change in the noise floor, but there is a bit less wonderful warm and fuzzy comfort in the music. So frustrated.
|
Maybe someone out there has a fix for this. Another very frustrating part of the journey for me.
Crossovers and hi/low pass filters are the most misunderstood part of the audio signal. My home theater looks at the subs and just 2 speakers in a stereo configuration for music in a different way than for movies. There is an LFE track for movies that is separate than the low frequencies that are going to the subs and at a different low pass range. Also the satellite speakers are not all the same size my surrounds have a different crossover points than the speakers in the ceiling for surround sound movies or surround sound music. I did have a JL Audio CL1 that was designed for just this problem but it actually added more low and high pass filters actually convoluting the entire system. Also the passive speakers have crossovers inside the cabinets to optimize the drivers. Also there is electronic DSP that creates optimized curves based on information from the way the speakers interact with the acoustics of the room, these curves will most likely not correspond exactly to all the other curves our modern systems have in them and of course the microphone doing the DSP corrections is not flat therefore adding false curves from the devise that is supposed to fix all of this mess.
Pure stereo systems are great but the future is surround sound I think the winner is clearly Dolby Atmos but having separate systems for stereo and movies, music and cinema is a bit silly. There are other aspects of the audio signal that change the curve like phase knobs, separate EQ on subs, different pass filter fall off rates, built in EQ on preamps, A to D converters, D to A converts, etc. There is no way to have a modern music playback system that is coherent in any respect unless you have a system with 1 A to D / D to A converter and a good sounding room requiring no DSP.
I have went out and recorded choirs with 1 very good stereo microphone (multi microphones always have phase issues by definition) and plugged that direct recording into an amp and listened on 2 speakers (also a phase issue). The result is like eating a fish that you just caught out of a mountain stream, it is an entirely different test and experience than when you buy fish at the market.
No only are audiophiles confused but manufactures are confused because playback systems are not made like your ears, in electronics it is very difficult to not introduce feedback into the circuit for efficiency sake, so even at the base of a simple amplifier circuit we are already swimming upstream. Interestingly enough Edison when he was recording to a wax disk moving the musicians farther and closer to get the volumes right (mixing) he didn't have any of these problems, maybe that was the last phase coherent recording.
|
@snapoli2 if you do get the Genelecs absolutely positively only get "the ones" doesn't matter what model you get they are all very good. Genelec took a huge step forward with these , you won't go wrong.
|
@kota1 My notes of several of the curves we have to deal with to get a coherent signal in our listening rooms is exactly on topic. @lonemountain said it perfectly "Active is not about where the amplifier is, it’s about where the crossover is." Absolutely!, Keeping timing issues coherent in audio is very difficult. It's more complicated that most everyone thinks even if you use DSP with all of your equipment on.
If you are listening to a wonderfully recorded live album in which the lead singer uses a wireless microphone that recording will have internal latency issues if that wireless mic is digital like the best wireless systems are, the latency in digital wireless mics varies depending on the version of microphones usually a production company has many of these mics lead vocals, backgrounds, etc. so the newer versions of these mics are different and uses updated digital circuits. So all that to say there are very few modern recordings that are phase coherent from the start, When I was recording movies and TV and some music I had to use a digital mixer that was able to put a delay on each channel of different digital and analog microphones, that is very difficult and I didn't know of any other production sound mixer who did that, I really worry about such things.
|
@Kota1 Lots of great points one very striking one that goes right along with the OP is speaker cables. If they are a component and worth the price many people are willing to pay then eliminate them and go with active speakers. Many people who have decades of experience in listening to sound systems do think speaker cables do make a difference ok then why not listen to them and eliminate the cables we then that forces class D amps, Peter Lyngdorf has a speaker test with his D amps, you turn up the amp to 100% you put your ear next to the speaker driver if you can hear it buzz you don't have to pay for the system, 137db dynamic range is extraordinary in Steinway Lyngdorf systems. P Lyngdorf is a walking vault of patents for class D amps and his equipment may be an exception but it does mean that class D amps and 3.2kw power supplies are for real.
|
@kota1 I've got the worlds most analytical headphone setup, the Focal Stella closed headphones and a Naim Unity HP headphone amp, both components are razor sharp and not very fun to listen to, accurate ya probably very much, I got that for working on video editing when you rally have to get the tiny details. Tube amps for the headphones would be great, I met Mr. Manley once he was very nice and very proud of his tubes and the way they sounded.
I now I want to be active on my new system but I can't find a company that is totally system oriented other than Steinway and just 2 channels are $166K, and they don't even make surround speakers and I can't integrate the Steinway system into anything the connections are completely proprietary using cat 5 cable. I do want to put my money where I feel that the science and common sense leads but there are no alternatives. Sad.
|
@thespeakerdude Great info on the P20s really appreciate it. Also the JL Audio 113 speaker buzz happens with no audio inputs at all. Thanks
|
@thespeakerdude All my components are balanced, but the subs have an AC hum my system runs off of 2x circuits both plugged into PS Audio P20 Power regenerators they send the power to DC then back to AC, seems good in theory. I've tried lifting grounds, no change measuring the voltage between neutral and ground nothing, what has worked is using an extension cord powering the subs from another part of the house and also using old ac filters like from monster and furman and such, but that's not a real fix.
@kota1 I will check out the meridian systems but I'm happy with the Lyngdorf processor and the BHK 300 mono block amps it's just the BHK preamp that is noisy. I took it out of the system and used the Lyngdorf as the preamp, everything sounded very clean (other than the sub buzz) but it didn't sound nearly as good as with the tube preamp so I put it back in and am living with the slight noise, I can't hear it when the music I playing anyway. Tubes are like that old girlfriend that you hate but is so good looking you can't let her go.
The Focal Stella headphones are paired with the Naim Unity HP amp it's class A power and is all owned by the same company so I thought the headphones and amp would work together nicely, nope, way to untube like way to analytical and harsh, the dynamics hurt my ears, so Im using the headphone output of the BHK preamp. My idea of synergy in this case didn't work very well I just don't use the headphones much, but I would like to.
I think I'm justo going to buy some nice speakers and subs for my upgrade, I don't think I can go active, other than the subs.
|
