I think the Ohm's can do a pretty good job of the phantom center, but as Map and other's have commented, speaker positioning is very much the key, and typically is still somewhat of a compromise.
With my setup using a 55" screen sitting on a stand that is just the width of the screen(kind of a lowboy stand), my walsh 3/3000's are about 9 feet apart and my listening position(about 6.5-7' from plane of speakers) is pretty much centered to lock the dialog/center in. But things still get a bit off once you move out of a small window. While the Ohm's manage a great soundstage for 2-channel music, I do think multi-channel is a different thing and can be tough to do with only 2 speakers.
The other thing is that each Ohm speaker can needs to basically "see" the other one in order for things to work well to begin with, so if any one of the speakers is blocked from the other one by the screen, cabinets etc., this will tend to throw the balance of things off, and you will not obviously get the staging right. So, clear paths between them is the way to go.
As a side note, I would recommend the Ohm Micro Walsh omni version for surround duties, very good in this mode. I even find them to be quite amazing for simple 2-channel L/R listening.
Enjoy your Ohm's guys! Tim |
Rbf-I just looked at your pics of your setup and I feel that the way you have your MWT's toed in is really going to mess up your staging big time, unless this is just them sitting there for fun. You should have them with the fronts of the speaker more straight on and they could use spreading apart by a bit more. If the image is still not quite the way you want it to be, try toeing them out versus in the way they are now. Slight adjustments at first until you get them locked in.
The way you have them toed currently is going to more or less send your image/treble right at the TV screen versus out toward you. The tweeters are at a diagonal/45 degrees so you need to somewhat sit intersecting that line. At any rate, they look nice, would like to see a better up close photo of yours. I like the black, are you satisfied with the fit and finish, and the grills look okay to you? Hope this helps some. Enjoy them! Tim |
Rbf-It would appear that with your toe-out that you have you are experiencing more of a direct radiated sound from the tweeters, which may be just fine if you like it that way. It can all depend on how far your listening position is and just how much of the treble energy you want.
How is the bass doing as far as you can tell? While the MWT does have the built-in plinth and bass port on the bottom, you probably would get a bit more bass moving them back towards the wall some.
It looks like you are a bit crowded there with your two racks, TV and gear. Sometimes you have to make do with the space you have, but if you could maybe move your gear rack over to the left, and spread the Ohm's out a bit more and back, you might do a bit better.
I find my Ohm's do very well with a good spread in between the speakers, but not so much you lose focus or get the hole-in-the-middle effect. Great thing about the MWT's is they are so easy to move around, only you will know what sounds best to your ears. Experiment, that is the best way to find the sweetspot, and with the Ohm's, the sweetspot is generally pretty wide.
Enjoy! Tim |
Bond, I agree with you, I tend to like a bit of "liveliness" versus more damped with my Ohm's. But like most things, it is all up to the listener's ears.
One thing you might try just for a quick and easy sanity check with regards to your TV screen in between your Ohm's, grab a light blanket or something similar and toss it over the screen, this can give you a quick feel as to how things might be affecting your staging/sound quality.
Rbf-Like most have commented on here, experimentation is the key to setup success. Hang in there and have patience, you will get there! Tim |
Map, unfortunately, this is why I more or less gave up on my A/V system, there ended up being too many compromises in a living room that has to be used as a living room. I sure do miss having a more dedicated space for the gear, but I have been able to better optimize the space for good 2-channel, even with my 55" screen in the mix.
Making sure the Ohm's are more in front of the plane of the screen and spread apart has helped tremendously with this, a small compromise, but it works. Thing is, this living room probably "sounds" better or is more sonically appealing than my original dedicated hi-fi rig room of the past. Tim |
RBI, for what it is worth, I use a pair of REL T-3 subs with my MWT'S when they are in the system. These can be found fairly cheaply on occasion here on the Gon, also a couple of close out companies have had them listed, but I bet most will be out of stock by now. I got mine on close out. These mate really well to the Ohm's as well as my MMG's. Good little subs, does depend on your room size too here.
Richinny and Marty, take a look at the Ikonoklast tweeters, very similar to the old Walsh tweeter made for the Infinity speaker many years ago, these can be bought and added on to other speakers. It has given me some of those thoughts about trying different combos. Sorry I don't have a link right off, but I think you can find them. Interesting huh? Enjoy the music! Tim |
All, take a look at Ohm's website, John is having a Columbus Day sale on all Ohm speakers, limited to 37 pairs, get them at greatly reduced rates while you can! I hope some of you that might have been on the fence can take advantage of this and order a pair. Just a shameless plug for John and company from a long-time Ohm lover and listener! Enjoy the music! Tim |
Map, it is an F-5000 with an active 15" sub built in.......Actually, I just made that one up, but one never knows. I too saw that and wondered, but the price for me is way beyond my means. Still curious too though. Tim |
I had sent John S. at Ohm a note earlier, and inquired about the Ohm F-5015, here is his response. Guess I wasn't too far off on my guess afterall....
The F-5015 is the ultimate upgrade Ohm F. The cabinet has a 15" XtremeXcursion, sealed subwoofer (on the bottom) and a 500 watt amplifier to get a 16Hz response at high output levels. The F driver board gets sealed and enlarge to be accept a Walsh 5000 driver. The grill is the size of the original F but is made from mostly perforated metal and has our current seamless grill cloth. When built all-new, we are targeting $12,000 per pair. I am using up F cabinets with these beta versions.
Maybe at some point there will be some pics, maybe.....Tim |
Map, I will gladly take your F-5's off your hands, not that I will have the room for them soon, but oh well.
Yeah, I would love to see these beasts as well. |
Coot, just curious but have you tried your B&K on the 5000's yet? You might see how it goes before spending the money, you might be surprised. Or not......I do like the Bel Canto amps myself though. Enjoy the 5000's! Tim |
Okay, got you. I didn't know if this was the case or if the 5000's were new or what. Makes sense then, and you could maybe benefit from a bit more power there possibly. Those pipe organs can sure push a system to it's limits, that is for sure.
I haven't heard the Van Alstine, but have heard good things about his equipment. I would say if you can purchase with a trial, that would be the way to go in order to make sure you aren't just wasting your money there. Either way, enjoy the tunes! Tim |
I do the same thing Bond, only am usually streaming Pandora mixes or whatever is on my iTunes radio. Always nice for those moments when you just want to sit back and relax and not fuss with anything. The Ohm's always sounded great.
I do have to say, some of the better mixes/soundtracks on blu-ray can be very dynamic and well done, but a lot too can be downright crap. Like most things no matter if it is CD, LP or otherwise, the recordings can be a mixed bag. Enjoy. Tim |
See John at Ohm for the Black Friday sale! Got a notice in my e-mail, so if you have been holding out, now is a great time to buy. Happy Holidays folks! Tim |
Bond, shame the Squeeze Box are no more, not sure what happened there. Right now I just go lossless with my iTunes via Apple TV or directly to my Naim Uniti. There are so many ways to skin the cat, have also been thinking about a vortex box as well, but that will be way in the back burner at this point! Tim |
You could be right Bond, there sure are a lot of them out there though. Thanks for the offer on the vortex box. One of my friends just built one himself and loves it. I haven't been over to check it out yet, but something I have given some thought too. In the meantime, the Naim and its abilities are doing what I need at the moment!
How have your 2000's been doing? Hope all is well with you! This little part of the forum has been a bit quiet of late, always enjoyed a good Ohm read. Been wondering if anyone was able to take advantage of Johns Black Friday sale at Ohm? Tim |
Bond-great on the 2000's, and boy, I do not envy you with cord/cable changes, those are the kind of "upgrades" that typically would drive me mad! But yes, the Ohm's are very revealing of anything in the stream, but the good thing is, I also find them very easy, no matter what is there for the most part.
I am sadly missing my Ohm's very much. Health and financial issues have forced my hand and my entire system was sold over the last few months. At some point though down the road, I would like to be able to get another pair. I guess I have just gone through a major purging/simplification at this point. But I will be back. Tim |
I think the new site is definately a big step in the right direction, been a loooong time coming. About the only thing I see is that more pictures of each model would be a good thing, and that may be in the works still. I am sure like most things, it is a work in progress. Lets just hope that it isn't another 20 years before it is finished! Only kidding John, well done! |
Coot, 100 watts/tube=500 watts/ss, if this were the case, an awful lot of people would have given up on solid state a long time ago. This just isn't so and is another hi-fi myth. I don't think I have ever seen quite this amount of exaggeration though to be honest. Watts are watts into the same load.
At any rate, within the amplifiers capability and not clipping, tube or solid state will work into the Ohms, just depends on how loud you like it and how big the space you have to fill. Many have tried tubes, some stay with one or the other. A matter of flavor at times, others a matter of drive and dynamics. Finding a good match that you like with Ohms is what matters most, your ears, your system. Enjoy them! Tim |
Bond, that was why I said "within an amplifiers capability and not clipping" bit. Once that happens all bets are off, but I do understand what you mean, tubes are a bit more graceful when they clip, or can be, and I suppose the argument could be made that tubes even when running within their limits, still have distortion figures quite a bit higher than solid state in general, it is just a more pleasurable distortion if you will. Still I find so many claims of tube amplification sounding like "more watts than solid state" to be somewhat silly. Anyway, I should just let it slide really. No big deal.
I am sure John will do you black finish on your surrounds/rear channels too still. It is too popular to not do it. It is just good to see the website take on a major improvement after all these years!
Take care Bond and all. Enjoy the tunes. Tim |
When I was in the process of comparing and upgrading a pair of OW2's to the new 2000 series drivers, I did not notice a big change at all in the two different speakers sensitivities and ability to play well at lower volumes with the impact and resolution that I would get at higher levels. With my 3XO upgrade to the 3000 series drivers, it seemed different to me, and I likened it to my Magnepan MMG's, they just seemed to open up at higher volume levels, not just the bass end, but the mids and treble as well. With the older 3XO can, they seemed to play better at lower levels on up. Maybe I just have cloth ears, who knows?
The above was with an Anthem MCA 20 amplifier at 225 wpc, and also an ARC D-130 at 130 wpc in a moderate listening space. Everyone's mileage may differ, and probably will.
Enjoy your 2000 upgrade John! Keep us posted! Tim |
We do share a lot of information here, and especially with this thread in general discussing many other types of omni, or omni-like speakers. This review is of another speaker, of which I have owned it's baby brother, the Model 4, for a year or so, along with a pair of Shahinian Obelisk 2's about 2 months ago. Check out the review here:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue69/larsen8.htm
After taking a big break for about a year or so, selling my gear-my Ohm 3000's and MWT's etc., I came back looking at other alternatives, and the Larsen and Shahinian's ended up doing rotation in my system. While both Larsen and Shahinian-as well as Ohm's share many similarities, they all seem to still manage to do their own thing, and do it well. I still do miss the Ohm's at times, and may someday end up with another pair.
Nice to see this thread still alive! Tim |
Hoping for the best there Bond! At least you have great music, and while that may seem like a very hollow thing right now, I know music goes a long way to help get through those down-turns, it certainly did with me over the course of the last couple of years! Hang in there! Tim |
Like any speaker, positioning is usually a big part of the sonic picture, but not the only part. Dropping an Ohm or any other omni-type speaker into the same position as a typical forward-firing box speaker may be worse in some aspects, especially if the placement of those speakers is close together. This is somewhat listener dependant of course, place to taste so to speak, but I always preferred my Ohms to be typically spaced wider apart than I would most box speakers. I always felt that the soundstage and imaging would be better this way, whereas if they were closer together, things can begin to sound like a large ball of music. Maybe not a bad thing depending on how you want your "staging".
I used to own Walsh 3000's and also the MWT in omni-configuration, and both of them liked to be placed a decent bit apart. I always played with that positioning though very much like I would any speaker, even an omni's soundstage can become collapsed and not realistic if placed too far apart. The positioning/angle of the tweeters does enable a wider spacing, while still getting the imaging and stage correct. In general I agree with Map's post above.
I now own a pair of Swedish Larsen Model 4's, that are not too far off from a pair of Ohm's in some respects, especially ragarding the tweeter positioning to some degree. I find that I can place these speakers similarly to the Ohm, 10-12 feet apart, and listening around the same distance or even a bit less with very good results.
I also own a pair of Shahinian Obelisk 2's, and they continue to amaze me, it seems they can sound as large as the room you have them placed in without making the individual performers and instruments seem too large-no vocalists with 10-foot wide mouths here. I don't know how they do it, but they get most things right as do Ohm's.
Ohm's, Larsens, Shahinians, all very similar products at varying price points, but they all manage to sound right to me, like real music in a realistic setting.
Tim
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Very true Map, it is like a lot of things, very dependant on room and tastes. I tend to like a bit of spread to my stage, and even when the Ohms are closer together, they still do a good job, I just feel they are a bit more open when pulled apart to some degree.
I think this is one somewhat of a misconception, a lot of people think that the omni's can be just plunked down most anywhere and be okay, and while I think they are maybe a bit less fussy in general with positioning, one can still be rewarded greatly playing with positioning.
I still struggle a bit at times with the Shahinian Obelisk positioning, I like a lot of various positions with them and have a hard time making up my mind which is best for me. Good thing they too are on casters, wheel them around, makes life easier! Tim |
By the way Map, just saw your comment in my virtual systems, sorry I rarely go on there. Guess I should check in every now and then! I did respond a bit to a couple of the posts there. Darn, is this the 2000th post on this thread? Good grief, we should have brought Rebbi back for that one.... |
Map, totally agree with you on the speaker end, it is what overly flavours the pot of stew, the electronics to me are just the basic ingredients. Of course they do have to come together somewhat!
I have felt for a long time that while there are differences in the sonics of the electronic chain, most sound more alike than not, differences to my ears very small compared to what different speakers are capable of.
Anymore I grow tired of trying to listen to or hear those differences, I tend to just listen to the music instead, and I have enjoyed things much more that way. Tim |
I had some of the Martin Logan Motion series speakers that I used for A/V in the living room for awhile. These had the same basic folded ribbon tweets as the Golden Ear speakers, and they are quite good. I never did find them to be soft or irritating in any way at all, very detailed and smooth. A fantastic little tweeter. I do like most of the GE line as well, and as Map put it, the Aon is a good little stand mounter. Tim |
Great tune Bond, and I am not much of a country fan either, but that album is quite good. I know it always sounded extremely good on my Ohm's as well, and yes, it is a wonderful way to break in those newbies, or ones that haven't ever really listened to any kind of proper setup. |
I too have enjoyed Johns latest little blurbs, good reading.
As far as Johns take on wanky-wires, I think in general John takes a very solid, but simplistic take on the whole audio thing, use what is capable for doing said job, no more, no less, simple and fuss free. After all, he has in the past used very simple and reasonably priced amplifiers from NAD etc.
I do like Johns approach and thoughts on most things. But, it also doesn't hurt to try things out for yourself and see what-if anything does change for the better. A lot of things may not be better, just different. Isn't this audio business fun? Tim |
Heard yes, probably so, but are they all better? Probably not. For me, I find wires and cable to be the most difficult thing in general(unless something is really waaaay different or just awful for whatever reason)to try and evaluate. Again, maybe differences, but not always so cut and dried as to define a better or best a lot of the time-again, for me and my cloth ears.
It may be that after all these years, I am maybe just simply more satisfied with the setup and sound it delivers that I am less apt to swap things in and around for the sheer fun of it anymore. Enjoy listening to the music more than I do going through the motions of swap, listen, and all that business. Tim |
John, good to see that things are going well for you with the Ohms and DAC etc.! |
I would agree, seems to be a lot of good dacs to play around with! |
Enjoy them and keep us posted on how you get along with them. I always enjoyed my MWT's. |
Tate, never fear, someone will be along on this thread at some point! Seems like it goes through little spells of activity, but eventually as Mapman did, somebody will catch up to things sooner or later.
Glad the Ohms are doing their thing as well as your gear. Enjoy your music and don't get in too big of a hurry to change anything. It will all get there at some point!
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t8kc, congrats on the upgrade, the install should be fairly simple. There can always be some minor setbacks, but generally John has provided everything you might need. Not having any crossover boards to pound out makes things so much easier too, although I am not sure if you will receive a new terminal board that will replace the current one or not. Either way, it is no big deal to pop the old one out. John likes to use hot melt glue to put the new terminal board in, I tend to like to use black silicone, it is a bit easier to deal with and a nice bead of it around the inner edge where the board goes will work fine. It just takes a bit longer to cure/setup, but doesn't become brittle over time like the hot melt can. The new terminal board will have what looks to be like the older original heavy gauge clear skinned "monster cable" connected to it, and another connector at the other end which will then plug into your new can. The new can will be already mounted on a new "baffle" board which will then be mounted right over the existing hole where your old driver went. This board is typically screwed in with the provided 4 wood screws. It really is just a matter of getting the new board/can assembly situated squarely on the cabinet top before screwing things down. You might also get new grilles, as the driver can is a bit bigger around and also taller. At least my OW2 to 2.2000 was this way. At any rate, take things slowly and pre-fit things first just to make sure you know how things will go together. The only real thing to be aware of is the orientation of the driver on the cabinet, and the instructions should show what way the driver should sit so that the tweeters are in the right position. Really seeing as there isn't the typical logos on the OW1 cabinet like the other bigger brothers, not much you can really get wrong here. Obviously if something doesn't look right, fit right etc., John will help you out. Have fun and enjoy the process! And especially enjoy the music your Ohms will give you! |
I guess I should mention that my above comments were how my upgrade from an OW2 to 2.2000 was(So basically same cabinet and driver size), so there may be slight differences or John has made some running improvements to this. I suppose the new cans might not even come with new baffle boards now, as it seems I have seen what looks to be slightly different configurations for the driver mounting flanges. The new can/driver might just mount by itself now to your cabinet. I will be interested to hear what all you have and what you did for this upgrade/update. Keep us posted! |
I would be interested in how the old board is removed and new one installed. Curious, but as I said in my above posts, John continues to work on things and tries to make the upgrades easier to install, all the while bringing added refinement to the sound. As to suggestions, I would say leave well enough alone, listen and enjoy your music through the Ohms. Music isn't about being an audiophile! Have fun! |
I think I get what you are talking about. Some of the early versions just had a mounting board with new driver, you pulled off the old driver and just placed this new mounting board/driver directly over the existing hole and screwed it in place with four wood screws. This was my version anyway. As to the crossovers, mine were all in the can itself and did not come with any controls. So the old crossover/controls were removed and a new plain terminal block/board was mounted in place-hence the hot glue. So sounds as if some things have changed. The main thing is how they sound though, and hopefully you will enjoy them! Thanks for the response! |
"Even Jim Smith (Get Better Sound) rarely mentions changing the sound coming out of the speakers, but focuses primarily on changing the room to fit the speakers. That thinking seems backwards to me, but I'm just a lowly mechanical engineer...or am I missing something important here?" Quote from t8kc- Just to pick this thought up a bit, I think what happens quite often, and even I have been guilty of said thing, is that sometimes we try to "fix" what we think are sound issues with different gear. The thinking behind this is that it will somehow fix the problem, when in reality, the issue could very well be the room itself and poor acoustics-probably more times than not. While changing tone controls etc. in effect changing the sound coming out of the speakers, rarely will the changes given by ordinary tone controls really fix issues. It might make some things more pleasing to some degree, but room acoustics tend to go far deeper than what we can fix this way. While I don't know if this is exactly what Jim's thinking is here, as I have not read any of his book, it makes sense to me. Get the room as acoustically "fixed" as possible, then work with the gear/speaker side of things. Of course this also brings up differing means of treating the room depending on the type of speaker to some degree-such as Magnepans, Omni's or front driven speakers. Even though the basics can apply to every one of these, each one also may have a slightly differing means of going the next step further. The nice thing is that in my opinion, most Ohm speakers are a bit easier to work with room-wise. I always called them a more "friendly or real-world" speaker system. While certainly benefits can be had by taking the room acoustics and setup to the utmost degree, I find they just work fairly well with minimal fuss overall. For what it is worth! |
Bondman, while one never seems to get really good details on the drivers even when talking to John himself, I think that at least with my early 2000 drivers, the main drive unit was an "aluminum coated" driver. So certainly a bit of difference from the typical aluminum formed drivers that you see in other speaker designs. Mine appeared to be an almost exact duplicate of one of Dayton's drivers at the time.
My tweeters were indeed a silk soft dome variety, very smooth, yet detailed. I could not see my 3000 series drivers, but believe they were similar to the 2000 units, but that has been awhile, when the "Thousand" series first came out, and we know John makes little updates and improvements along the way.
Generally with regard to aluminum drivers, tweeters or otherwise, I find it isn't so much the driver itself, but the way it is implemented, the crossovers etc. that really matter to the "sound".
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I wonder how many "Ohmies"-or even those not necessarily Ohm lovers, managed to get to the NY Audio Show this past weekend? Anybody get to visit the Ohm Acoustics room and visit with John S. and listen to his setup? Am curious as to how well it all went down. I managed to catch a couple small snippets from my google searching, but nothing of much substance. Hopefully maybe some others will chime in at some point. I do think it was a good thing(Hopefully) that John decided to attend, if nothing else to get more exposure, although I wonder if he/Ohm really needs it, and also if anyone in the mainstream audio nerdophilia really cares? Anyway..... |
Bond, glad you went and got to experience the setup, and also to meet John in person. Would love to have gone, but not close to NY, and work was beckoning anyway. Shows can be tough, but figured Ohm might be a bit easier to place in those rooms and get reasonable music out of them. Nice to hear an account of how things fared, thanks for the note! |
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Good point accurus, I don't get the requirement to be this pin-point, razor/laser beam type imaging that gets yacked to death in the mags and press either. To each their own I guess. Obviously one can overcook things, even on the ambient side of things too. Balance can be a good thing. |
Looking at the Stereophile photo of the Ohms in-room positioning, I find them to look a bit oddly toed. Although Ohms are fairly unfussy, this still looks a bit strange. Also not getting a bit more spread between the speakers could have possibly helped some. All of this of course me saying and thinking out loud-without me even being there, mind.....Okay, will get my coat now....
Regardless, I am still glad John and Co. did do the show, and hopefully good came out of it. If nothing else awareness that Ohm was indeed still alive and well! I can surely see though how a show environment can be tough and quite taxing. |
Very good Bond! Who was John's assistant, did you get a name? Just curious. Hopefully they did get some good sales as a result of their presence at the show. |
One of the things I have enjoyed throughout this very lengthy thread, is that there may be differing opinions on the sound, the quality of build, many things in general about Ohm, but it seems to stay very civil. In this day and age of folks hiding behind the almighty computer, this is nice. It is good to hear differing opinions, yet not get smacked for it! The knowledge base in this thread has been very good, and very helpful for many I would say!
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ps-my opinion only, but I would think the 1000's would be fairly ideal in that space. I had a pair of MWT's in a space a bit bigger, was still surprised at how well they sounded, not lost in the space at all. Obviously a little bass limited perhaps depending on exact listening position, but wonderful music. All depends on expectation level maybe? |
Yes, Merry Christmas to all!
Peter, I do find that tweeks to Ohms can be interesting, and many have to chose to tinker and play. But my thoughts are simply once done, they really aren't "Ohms" anymore, but your own take on what you would like them to be. Nothing wrong with that of course, after all, they are yours to do whatever you hear fit for them! I do watch and read with interest, however!
I also agree a bit on some of the build quality, while it may not necessarily affect the sound quality, the soldering and general shoddy workmanship leaves a bit to be desired, and the sad part is, it takes no more time or expense to actually do a decent job of it. I have probably seen under the cans of too many Ohms, and they all look pretty terrible in general. As you say though, ignorance can be bliss, and indeed, what is inside the mystical can.
More to come later. I haven't followed up much, just little off and on. I am hoping to get a listen to one of my friend's brother's Ohm Walsh 5000 system from Germany, which is their active speaker system. I do think active crossovers can have serious benefits if done right, and I am curious why John Strohbeen maybe hasn't exploited this here in the US as the crew in Germany has. Will post back if this all comes together.
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