Not happy yet


I have recently discovered "hi-fi" and have been replacing a few parts of my system. But I have not yet got the involving sound I am looking for. My judgement of the sound: the bass is too loud relative to other sounds, and the voices aren't prominent and involving enough. The loss of tone controls in my new higher-end pre-amp and amp (replaced older receiver) means I can't throttle the bass back as I used to do.

Any advice on where to go next? Here is the equipment:

Yamaha CDX-410u CD player (older single-play player)
Classe CP-35 pre-amp
Rotel RB-981 Power amp
Celestion S300 speakers
Cabling is generic

Room is about 12' x 25', with 8' ceiling. The speakers are at one of the room, several feet from back and side walls. Bare hardwood floor, bare ceiling, fairly sparse wall decoration.

Music is mainly Jazz, older rock, folk. I notice the well-recorded jazz sounds pretty darn good, very good highs, decent voices on the best recordings. Jazz tends not to be bass-heavy to start with.

Any ideas on what the next upgrade or change (room treatment?) should be? I have to go one thing at a time, but I expect to replace almost everything (except possibly the pre-amp and speakers) along the way.

Thanks for any advice...
ehart
Ehart, what are you asking folks for advice for ??? Your the only one so far that has looked at this logically. While everyone can be pissed at me for saying this, so be it.

While many suggestions are valid in terms of building a system composed of better components and an improved listening atmosphere, none of them have approached your main problem right NOW. My guess is that you would like to get the gear that you currently have working as good as possible and then slowly build from there. If that is a correct assumption, then continue reading. Otherwise, skip this post and consider it gibberish.

At this point in time, i'm assuming that you HAVE played around quite a bit with speaker placement and your seated listening position. Other than that, here are some other comments / observations.

"Generic" cd players ARE bright and grainy. "Better" cd players are warmer and smoother. So much for fixing the "boom" problem with that suggestion.

Your room IS live. Adding more damping of ANY type will only absorb / dampen mids and highs, even if they are reflections. While this might help soundstage, imaging, etc... it will only further skew the tonal balance towards "warm mud". The only way to effectively minimize the "boom" would be via some form of "bass trap" or VERY large, VERY overstuffed furniture. Normal "acoustic treatments" and rugs do nothing below about 400 Hz or so due to the increased wavelength of low frequencies. Since this is where your main problem exists, you would be throwing your money away in terms of correcting the blasting bass.

Cabling CAN make quite a difference if you are experienced with a large quantity of cables and know what to use where. As such, i've commented on that below.

As to answering the questions that i asked of you, Thank you. It is much easier to diagnose a problem when you have the necessary info to do so. It was i that asked about your "equipment holder". As such, your set-up is quite conducive to "muddy" sound. This is especially true if the in-wall unit is located near a corner of the room. Either way, you REALLY need to do something with that situation. If at all possible, you need to get the components isolated from the shelf and other equipment. If worse comes to worse, stick the CD on top of the RX and use some ALUMINUM cones between them, point side facing the receiver lid. A small amount of sand in a FULL SIZED ZIP LOCK FREEZER bag on top of the CD player will help minimize airborne resonances. Use just enough sand to fill the bag out in a "flat" layer across the top of the CD. Nothing super thick or "lumpy", just a nice even layer. This may help "band aid" your problem, but you really do need to get some type of "audiophile approved" rack with a shelf for each component.

As to your speakers, there are several things that you could do. You did not mention if you are over a basement, i.e. you could have a suspended "bare wooden floor". If you are over a basement, the floor itself is resonating. While i can't see your Celestions "thumping" out bottom end in massive amounts, it might be just enough to cause problems. As such, slightly elevating the speakers OFF the floor can help reduce this while changing the driver to floor reflection point. This can either help or hurt ones' tonal balance, so try it and see. Moving the mid-woofer and tweeter closer to ear level will help to accentuate the mids and highs while slightly lowering bass output, so this might be a two-fold step in the right direction.

If that doesn't work, you can experiment with plugging the ports. This will play MAJOR games with the tuning of the cabinet and bass output levels. You will have to experiment with plugging one or both ports, a partial plug of one or two, etc... It is quite possible that a "resistive port" ( called a "variovent" or "aperiodic tuning" ) will work well for you. This can also affect power handling of the driver, so PAY ATTENTION to the results and don't overdue anything until you're sure that everything is working okay.

In terms of cables, your 16 gauge zip cord is not overtly offensive. Using a heavier "zip gauge" will tend to attenuate the upper mids and treble response while slightly accentuating the bass ( even though it would be firmer ). As such, i don't think that your speaker cables are part of the problem.

I have no idea about your interconnects. You might try using some generic "OEM" cables that came with the gear. These "el cheapo" cables tend to sound thin and bright, which might alleviate part of the problem. Otherwise, you might even try making some interconnects using a thin gauge enameled "magnet wire" that is available from Radio Shack. Should you want to tackle something like that, post something here or give me an email and we can go into details. I know that "Gizmo" had written about this type of cable a while back in Listener.

All of these suggestions are on the "quick fix" and "low budget" type of approach. I don't think that anyone here could give you a "this will work" type of answer without being there or examining / experimenting with the system first hand. I would rather see you work towards correcting your initial problem and make the system listenable than just add more "new" variables to it. While the end result would be nicer gear that cost more money, you might still end up with the same sonic mess that your experiencing now. By working with what you have to find the "problem", you'll know what components / situation needs the most attention right off the bat. Hope this helps and the "regulars" aren't too pissed at me : ) Sean
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I also forgot one more thing. You have your speakers 6 feet from the back wall and 3 feet from the sidewall. As such, you will have MAJOR cancellation / reinforcement at specific frequencies. Since 3' and 6' are direct "harmonics" of each other in terms of acoustic wavelengths, that is a BAD way to have them set up. You need to find distances from the back and side walls that are NOT direct multiples or evenly divided into each other. This in itself might work wonders in terms of leveling out the in-room response. Sean
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OK.. The coast is clear. I'm comming in for another pass. This time I'm flying a little lower in an attempt to hit my target.

How about adding a small sub-woofer to your system. Not for more bass actually for less more controlled bass. By adding a sub it allows you a means to cross over some of the bass signal that is being sent to your primary speakers. Thus allowing you more control over the lower frequencys. This is an honest attempt to help solve your problem. (See guys I'm a team player)

Another thing I would like to emphasize is to take your time. Spend the next few months thinking about what you are really trying to accomplish. What exactly are you trying to build? Is it a tube based system? or solid state? Or do you even know yet? Warm and bright? or dark with a sharp edge?Slow down and think. Don't play the pot luck game. Build it and tweak it in your head first. Talk to lots of people. Ask lots of questions. But most important listen to lots and lots of gear.(YOUR OWN CD'S) Let every purchase bring you one step closer to your ultimate system. And for god sake be patient.

Listen to the music and to what your ear is telling you. Look at the way things are cabled. Most of us here realize the importance of good cabling even if we don't like to admit to ourselves or others what we pay for it.

The virtual system I listed in my first post is in fact my bedroom system almost to the tee. Does it sound great? Yea, but it also took a few years of wheeling and dealing and a lot of tweaks,blood,sweat and that other thing oh yea TEARS to get there. Rest a sure when you start to get close to your dream system you will be happy. VERY VERY HAPPY:~)

PS- And don't forget to have fun doing it. That is what it's really all about in the first place.
Sean and Glen (and others), thanks so much for your thoughtful responses.

I will review some past threads on speaker placement. I don't think I've tried everything; in fact, I've noticed that moving the speakers closer to the sidewall does sound a bit better (bad for soundstage though).

We do have a basement, and the floor does resonate. I have spikes (unused right now), but that would make things worse, right? So I'm thinking to try setting the speakers on milk crates to start, or on partially inflated bike inner tubes somehow. I will try the various other suggested tweaks (CD player isolation, speaker ports, etc.) also.

I wonder if source material is part of it. Has my system become "revealing" of bad material? I listened to John Hiatt's latest yesterday and Lucinda William's first album today. Both sounded good. The Allman's "Eat a Peach" on the other hand sounded all mushy and boomy, drowned out the good guitar work. I bet it would sound better in my car.

Great advice to "take your time." I don't know for sure what sound I'm looking for. I will try to be patient!