Charlie: Do you have any pics of your work, I would love to see the work in progress. Tremendous effort, can't wait to see how it turns out. |
good strategy. Have you been able to source the airbarb? if not, let me know. The air barb is not a custom part so I know it can be located. Do you have the 40# platter or the 70# platter? I am looking to move to the heavier platter but will probably have to have it made since I have not been able to locate a replacement platter. Also, are you looking to move the motor from the platter plinth to a separate plinth like piedpiper? I like his approach but just have not been willing to invest the time yet to do that project. No doubt that it will improve the performance. |
would love to see those pics. its going to be a different machine! |
charlie, yep follow the progress every day. Starting to get the itch to tweak some more. I like how the roma has smoothed out all of the nooks and crannies. can't wait to see the finished product
Piedpiper: thanks for your information. I tend to agree that the heavier platter will help with speed control. I will not have any problem with the vta or oil trough since i have already modified those components and they both are easily adjusted. I would love it if you would work up the design for the motor mount. I am looking again at your system to see how to mimic it. Thanks again to both of you for your insight and passion to improve this table |
Charlie-- try this link to a company that specializes in small fittings. The page should take you right to the page that has air barbs with male plugs. You should be able to fit this one pretty easy. Sorry for the delay, my instrument gurus been busy. Let me know if this was what you were looking for.
http://catalog.industrialspec.com/category/male-thread-x-barb? --- |
Charlie--looking good! Are you going to modify the tonearm to get on the fly vta? Were you able to match up what you need on the airbarb. There are other companies out if this one can not match you up. Let me know |
Charlie---Try this link for plastic air barbs. My laboratory guys say they will have it---http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/productsearch.asp?search=threaded+air+barbs |
Charlie
Have not heard from you recently. How is your project going. I just purchase a used signature and have recieved part of it today. I will comment (similar to piedpiper) that the plinth on the signature is a much more professional piece of work. This machine will require some work to get it up and running well. In particular, i am interested in your approach to the center pin replacement. The center pin in this one is shot. I believe there is a replacement in the spare parts box that has not arrived yet. I looked at the thread several times but can not find the reference to the center pin. I believe you were going to replace with delrin versus teflon or plastic.
I will also replace the stock leveling spikes with valid points or still points as the existing spikes are deformed due to the weight of the table. Also, the tonearm is kind interesting. It is more stable that the one on my reference table but it is not a thing of beauty. It appears that an aluminum tube was pressed to form a headshell that that became the armwand. I will try it out before I modify it, but I like my method of adjusting vta on the fly and the overall appearance of the carbon fiber arm and wood headshell. Also, this table does not appear to have a tonearm lift so i will need to make one for it. I shake too much to handle the arm directly
Overall, it is a beautiful table that i will enjoy modifying. I will post some pics as i get this one up and running |
Thanks. If you would be willing to share some details around your motor isolation, i would appreciate it. Since i have a table that is working pretty good, I do want to take this time to modify the signature to capture some of the ideas that have been discussed on this thread. Your motor isolation is one that has not gotten discussed much but seems to be a great modification. I will have to set up an air system with this table but a lot of that is already discussed earlier in the thread. |
thanks,It appears pretty simple. I am assuming that tension is set by how far away you put your motor from the table. How does the thread work compared to the standard rubber belt? |
Charlie--Good to hear from you. missed your comments in recent weeks. Hope you are doing ok. I know you had some health issues. As for the centerpin. I am having some manufactured out of teflon(two types) so if you or others have a need, i will have some replacements. I am studying the Piedpiper mods and will work to develop a plinth for the external motor. As you state, it will not be an easy project but if i can use the existing motor and create the path for the belt, I might go that way. Still deciding on path forward. I also am modifying the stock arm to install my on the fly VTA and improved armwand/Headshell. I did learn an important lesson though it is costly. The bottom plate levelness/Flatness is critical. The table I purchased was not moving smoothly when the air was put on it. I swapped out my existing table bearing plate and walla, it is moving well. The heavier platter requires more air pressure to float (can not use my cheap aquarium pump) but it now turns easily. With the "slightly" warped bottom plate, it took a lot of air to float and was noisy. I will get the bottom plate refinished and resurfaced to make it useable. I have decided I will take my old table and refurbish similar to your approach and my arm modifications and sell it. I also have a bunch of spare parts to build my own version of airbearing table and arm. A project for the future. I will send some pics soon. |
Charlie--Thanks for your insight on the platter. I agree that resurfacing will be a challenge. I first have to understand the alloy then i can find a shop to do it. I found an article from another website on a rebuild of a maplenoll athena from 1999 and he also indicated the issues with the platter. I have an old set of platters in the bunch of spare parts to play with first. Fortunately with my connections in the oil business and a brother in law who is a mechanical engineer with a specialist degree in materials, i hope to find the right place to resurface. I know it can be done because it was originally polished smooth. as for the lead platter, the signature is 90lbs of lead and as you highlighted, will be a chore in trueing up. This platter is bunged up also so i have work to do there. I will most likely outsource that as you did to get it truely level and balanced. That makes a great deal of difference. The other thing i have found is the spindle is not perfectly true. I will see what i can do with that also since it must be perfectly 90degrees to the air bearing plate to prevent the record from wobbling. An interesting find in the bag of extra parts. One of the air bearing spindles is grey in color and appears to be a different version as my signature or reference spindles. in addition, it is much smoother and glides in the sleeve pretty good even without air. Not sure if a surface treatment was done on it. but I will swap it out on my new project. damn i love these tables:^) |
Well, I have completed my refinishing of the lead platter. I turned and balanced the platter. I decided not to grind down the outside dimensions to correct a couple of Dimples in the lead. Instead i used epoxy to fill the holes and then sanded the surface to true it up. I repainted the platter with a good grade of acrylic paint. Looks pretty good once finished. Now got to get some help in mounting this beast on my airbearing platter. I also fabricated the center pin out of teflon. I have two grades of teflon. one is the standard formula and one is an infused teflon that has some materials to improve its abrasion resistance. I will say the teflon is very smooth. I am not sure what the original pin is made out of. I also installed my walker valid point on the table. The airbearing block has been attached to the zlift so i now have the on the fly VTA on this table. I am working on the armrest and lifter since this particular model did not have either. My dampening system is still being designed, but i will once again install below the air bearing spindle versus the headshell. This is very similar to the Walker table though my design is not as elegant. The armwand materials are not in yet, but i will use a carbon fiber wand (xxstrength versus standard carbon tube. I also plan to run the wire in separate quadrants in the tube to minimize interference. I have found that the moving the wires just a little bit impacts hum in the phono preamp. The separate quandrants should help that as well as working on grounding issues between the table and the phono preamp. I will work to fill the internal cavity of the tube to minimize any possible resonance along the interior cavity of the tube. I am still looking at how to extend the fine wire from the cartridge clip to the preamp. the really fine wire is great for minimizing impacts to the floating of the armwand but is hell when changing cartridges (my fat fingers tend to snap the fine wire). My last solution was to solder the fine wire to a din connector then use high grade cartridge clips and wire to connect to the din connector. I will say however, the best sound comes from minimum connections from the cartridge tip to the phono preamp. My pump system will be my JunAir compressor i currently use on my existing table. I will initially get the unit up using the motor attached to the plinth. I am still looking at ways to design the motor in a separate plinth. I am trying to find a source for the corian so i can build one out of corian to match the table. The motors are pretty small but the plinth needs to have enough mass to hold the motor securely and absorb all of the vibration from the motor. I will have some initial pics this weekend |
Piedpiper, found a supplier that can deliver sheets of corian. Still looking for the exact or closest match. Size of sheet varies. The thickness of the corian is 1/2 inch but you can sandwich many layers together then drill out the motor enclosure. I am still debating on how to do the plinth. Got be heavy enough to be stable. The site is Solidsurface.com. On a separate note, having to go back and rebalance the platter. Takes too much air to float and a pretty good wave as the platter spins. Thanks for your thoughts on the damping. I may start by just running the wires in tube first. As for my oil dampening system. Its similar to what the original maplenoll design, just below the spindle instead of the headshell. I also found adjusting the viscosity of the oil was key to finding the right amount of dampening. My refinery makes a broad set of oils so i get to experiment some. If you are interested, i could sent you a set of different viscosities to try out. I am looking at a new headshell. I used the yamamoto wood (its first class) but will try a graphite headshell. I have a block of solid graphite that i am trimming down into a prototype headshell. I am also pondering an airbearing modification to improve the platter. As you know the airbearing arm has multiple ports to keep the airspindle floating and aligned. most of the new state of the art airbearings used in the positioning field have multiple ports on their rotory bearing plates. Critical parameter is equal pressuredrop through each nozzle. But the multiple nozzles will stabilize the platter with much less air flow and less noise. More to come on this subject |
Charlie
Thanks for the tips. I have already cleaned the spindle and the air openings/chamber using a good solvent and carefully dried everything. I have not applied an exterior finish as you have suggested, but i will try that. I have notices one of the spare parts in the box of items was an airbearing tube that was not the typical aluminum finish but some type of applied finish that is much smoother than some of the other bearing tubes. great idea. I am still awaiting the balance of the platter. I know that will improve the effectiveness of the system. I am toying with an idea to try on one of the old bearing plates i have. You can improve the effectiveness of the airbearing plate by going to multiple air ports versus the single source. Not an easy task because you have to carefully control the orifice size of the port but if done properly, you could improve the balance of the system using 6 or 8 orifices. The platter dynamics become more stable and the "stiffness" of the airbear improves and less wobble occurs. (at least that is what i think i am learning from studying the theory around the airbearing). If it doesnt work, i still havent lost much because the plates have to be polished and resurfaced anyway. I know I have promised some pics and I will get some soon. Thanks again for the support and tips. By the way, the teflon centerpin is working pretty good. |
I should get my platter tommorrow:^0 i will lose about 1/8 in on diameter to get it trued up. But it is supposed to be perfectly balanced. I will soon see. The theory around the multiple ports on the bearing is similar to the one on the arm spindle that keeps the spindle centered. Key is drilling the port about 1/1000 in. I have found a machine shop who can do this for me. Not sure that the project would be commercially viable since the procedure will cost a little money. Still got to design the manifold or well to ensure each port sees the same air pressure. Got a couple ideas, but nothing specifically designed yet. The existing design should still work well if the platter is balanced and the bearing plate is true. You brought up that point earlier and that is the problem with the old set of plates that was in the box of parts. |
Charlie---good question that i am not 100% sure that it can be. Some of the information on various forums based on actual discussions with Dilger would suggest difficulty in doing it. In fact one string suggested that dilger had many of the plates originally produce and the reject rate was tremendous because of warping and trueness. Others have warned about cracking during polishing or grinding of a slightly warped plate. Talking to the machine shop that trued my platter(just recieved it today), he says he can handle it. His work on the platter was exceptional. I mounted it tonite and wow, it looks sharp. I have noticed an improvement in background noise with this table compared to my other ariadne.
Again, back to your original question, i will be able to report back in a few weeks on its success or not. The ones i have are not severely warped so the shop feels that a hard polishing will true up the platter. They have experience with lots of different materials including ceramics so they feel they can handle it. I will also have the shop bore 8 air ports on the platter. I will develop a plate that will install on the bottom to serve as an airplenum that will feed the 8 ports. The holes will be in two concentric circles to cover the entire width of the bearing surface. |
chetatkins--do you still spin them, or have you moved on. Seems a lot of maplenoll owners move on to other players. I enjoy tweaking and the compressor issue does not bother me since i have optimized it. I have the owners manual from this last purchase. |
Charlie--Cant wait to hear your feedback on your mods. I totally agree with the balance impact on the "spin rate" on the noll. With the heavier platter it made a tremendous impact. I am having that done to my older table platter. |
Tell me more about this dampening tape. This sounds interesting. Sounds like u use to damping the motor. how and where to apply the tape. I like the idea of an external plinth but if i can get 80% of that effect without moving the motor, that would be an option to consider. On your room treatment, are u using wall treatment? I know its off topic, but am interested in that aspect of sound improvement also. |
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Charlie---If you need some tonearm wire--AMsystems or Phoenix wire sells medical grade teflon coated silver wire that will work well and can be cut to length. It can be all the way to 0.001 diameter (i did 0.003) and is wonderful if you are handy with solder iron. Makes a big difference and the thin wire helps from a tonearm standpoint. I tried the thicker wire but did not work well because it impacted the free play of the tonearm. Piedpiper warned me about that and he was right. |
Jun Air has got several models including an oil less pump. I chose the 6-15 model because of the low noise threshold (40 db), pressure 125psig (found my air really likes 40 psig) and the pressure regulation/surge tank. The volume it produces is about 37 cfm, far more than needed but this means the unit only runs maybe 30% of the time. The pressure regulation off the surge tank is very good with no noticeable drop in pressure when machine is not running. This particular model is used by i believe Pluto electronics on their airbearing table.
I have cleaned the damping tubes and replaced with new fiber and replaced air lines as part of my compressor change out. Jun Air uses a compressor oil that is odorless and does not flash over during operation to any extent. Condensed water is a bigger problem due to the humidity
good tip on the cover, i really need to get one.
good luck baranyi, keep us informed on your progress. Love to share ideas about these great tables |
Baranyi--Not sure if anyone ever called a maplenoll a plug and play unit:>) However, i do think the maplenoll ariadne is one of the better tables out there. I currently own the white ariadne reference, grey ariadne signature, and the apollo heavily modified by Lloyd Walker.
Your first question, i changed out my air pump to a JUNAIR compressor back in 2006 and have not looked back. The compressor is one used a lot in the medical/dental field so is pretty quiet, reliable, and clean smelling (not always the case with the original pumps). If you look on this string you will see MEDO and WISA pumps also mentioned. I like the Junair because it has a rather large surge tank and great pressure control regulator that matches well with my air system. Clean, pulse free air at a pressure your arm likes is key to keeping these machines happy. The Junair uses a synthetic oil that is odorless and does not bleed off very much even with heavy use.
Concerning oil trough, i find it is a very good tool to get the utmost out of the system. it tends to solidify the bass in my opinion. I personally do not like the tonearms that came with the maplenoll and have modified both the ariadne to carbon fiber arms and relocated the oil bath to directly below the air spindle using a tapered pen similar to current walker tables. This way, the mess of the oil trough is eliminated. Its a little complicated to do this modification but i get a maplenoll with on the fly VTA adjustment, better dampening of the arm, and a stiffer assembly with the carbon fiber arm and headshell. There is a difference with using the oil trough versus not.
Hope this helps |
Brian is right about the superquiet pumps used with the original maplenoll. It is a "lube" oil, most likely Mobil one or equivalent. I do not like this set up because the refrigeration compressor does heat up and entrain oil throughout the system. This is also one of the reasons some maplenolls put a burnt oil smell into your listening room. if you are going to repair the existing pump. I would recommend draining and replacing the oil with a modern synthetic oil or true compressor oil Most of these are odorless and are more stable to heat.
Again he is right on point about the arm. It likes clean, smooth flowing air. I also recommend flushing the airbearing sleeve with isopropyl alcohol to clean out the ports if you are having any sticking problems
I like the concept of the oil-less compressors but the two i tried (not the one Brian recommended)were just too loud for my taste.
Finally to Markim, I am traveling today, but if you are looking for the belt measurement, i will post tommorrow once i return. I have the signature set up and can get that measurement pretty quickly for you |
oops, 37 liters/min (1.31 cfm), its actually pretty small with the exception of the tank. I really like the large air tank, got to help the stability of the air system. |
the ariadne belts are usually flat, but LPgear might have a round belt of that dimension |
sorry, took to long to get back to you. couple of points. First if you hear air from the bottom then you are either leaking at the connection or you have too high of pressure at the platter. One way to optimize is put a needle valve on the platter and close it. At this point there is no air going to the platter. See if you can hear any. There should only be air going to the arm. you should be able to keep 45psig with the arm alone. Assuming this is the case, turn on your motor and slowly open the air until the platter lifts. You might have to spin the platter with your hand to get it started. Listen for a rub. if it is not rubbing, lower the air until you hear a slight rub. then raise the air slightly to the rub sound stops. remember the arm can siphon a lot of air away from the arm.The needle valve will help you fix this.
Finally make sure you are perfect level. If not, it takes a lot more air to float the platter.also, make sure you clean the arm spindle and arm bearing housing. You will find that you can lower the air some by doing that also. |
