Oilman: I received 2 arm wands from ET. One appears to be a "prototype" silver in color the other a more typical looking arm wand ; they are 6" in length. More to say about them later when I have had some time with friends to explore there potental. Sorry, neither is carbon-fiber. |
Jdubs: 40 PSI is about right for the 'Noll tonearms. As I understand the Maplenoll Super Quiet Pumps were made in Canada and are devoid of most label/plate markings (at least mine is). They are heavy, black and football++ sized. Someone sugested that they were refrige-type pumps but I don't know that factually. The SQP is not like a most brand pumps but was a "homemade" by Bob Dilger. |
Threaders :
My Airadne rebuild has come to close , at least for now . The air control system is complete. Currently the air regulators dials show a constant air pressure of 43 PSI , the arm appears to operate better that ever -- sonic images float with nuances and timbers rivaling many analog platforms for a fraction of the price.
I want to be very up-front about this re-ferb. Firstly, I did not reinvent the wheel , nothing of the kind. I give all the credit to informatiom from print sources , the internet, L. Walker, B.D., P.S. and good 'Goners like you.
The result? I was able to collect and verify the effectiveness of dozens of tweeks the majority I applied to the table , tonearm , air control system and isolation of the table from electrical and mechanical vibrations.
A most significant tweek was to dynamicly balance the lead platter . The trick is to turn over the platter and using extreme caution sand out the micro abrasions and ripples until you can run your finger nails across feeling nothing. No small feat . Remember you are sanding lead so be forwarned safety gear is a must. Depending upon the condition of the platter 400-1500 ga wet-sanding may do the trick . Wet sand the record touching surface , rim-edges if micro-abrasions are evident. Dry and repaint the platter top and sides only . Leave the back as is . Dynamicaly balance and BAM BAM !!! What a difference. More problems lay hidden on the back side of the lead platters than has been published save Lumley 24 years ago.
I shall contiune the 'Noll quest and more is in the mix : Perhaps a custom phono cartridge & set-up , new arm wans but for now I want to enjoy the music. Cheers |
Thanks Oilman , looking forward to your advances in the future. |
Threaders : Quick bomb. Should have the big Mo'Money go buy or audition the Soundsmith Strain Gauge package $6 -14K. The impact is beyond anything you have experienced. Draws the listener into a world of sound that is hard for me to express. Ruthlessly revealing . It's not for the weekender without the time for record cleaning and perfect set-up. An experience unlike all others in playback. Oh, check-out S/S cartridge or rebuilds. Lots for a couple of bucks but way down the line to the sound of the Strain Gauge. The web site, w's. soundsmith.com |
Oilman : What I outlined is essentialy an expensive phono system called a strain gauge that includes a preamp . For particulars see www.soundsmith.com ; outragious price but the most involving analog experience I have experienced. Certianly above my $$ range but not everyone. |
Oilman: The exciting element(s) for me is the learning curve ... Its the "sound" experience" that may help me find other suitable adaptions to apply to the 'Nolls. For instance:
One element that is becoming clearer is speed control ; That is one strength of the TW Acustic Raven One TT which I have been listening to. I have discovered platter speed is a weak link in the 'Noll when compaired to the '301, '401 and TW Raven.
The 'Noll motor is off-da'-shelf that needs replacement for future advancements. An AC Speed Controller is another critical part of the sonic landscape ,as is the removal of the motor from the plith. Recently, I located a potential motor replacement that far exceeds the stock 'Noll spinner.
Let me be clear ,I believe that there are limits to the mods that can be performed ... Should I want a Raven buy one not a 'Noll. Likewise, I think the distance between some 'Nolls and other tables can be shortened. How far who knows.
One matter I am certian, the spring/suspended 'Nolls have finite limilts that the unsuspended 'Nolls do not. More to come. |
Oilman: I have uncovered another area that needs investigation -- The Bearing Platter . The Maplenoll Manual states " The air Bearing Platter is the heart of the turntable . It is incredibily simple consisting of only two parts ... ". Actually , that statement is partially accurate. The platter bearing consists of three parts : top , bottom and center pin. The center pin is the weak-link in the system. The center pin's were poorly manufactured , wearout in time and most that I have viewed have "side-swing" , the platter moves ever so slightly off-center . Lloyd Walker in his 6 moons interview had a veiled comment to the problem as a fatal flaw equally as important as the failure of the air-control systems for the entire 'Noll line-up. My interm solution was to re-manufacture the center pin to more exacting standards and have a couple dozen on hand so I can put a fresh pin in the bottom bearing plate whenever one starts to wear (yearly). I'm rethinking the whole matter trying to come up with a center pin that would be more akin to the improvements made to a '301 or '401 with a replacement brass bearing . Not the same just extracting the "essence" of improvement and extrapolating that into a 'Noll . A fuzzy - head thing buts that what I do best -- sometimes. |
Oilman:
My reaction to the Air Bearing advice presented to you is to recall a conversation with Lloyd Walker on several of the same issues. Mr. Walker warned me that those bearing plates have been hardened and are subject to distortion or shattering should they be put on a lathe and turned. As for manufacture to a slightly larger size, the estimates I got were beyond my means. They exceeded the cost of the entire table.
A reader of the postings emailed me to express his tale of woe . According to him he purchased a Maplenoll on Audiogon only to have it delivered damaged . Besides cosmetic issues, the top plate spindel was bent so he attempted to have it repaired. The machinist heated the plate not knowing it had previously been hardened and the top plate went out of true and can not be repaired. Now he's stuck with an unplayable table.
Some of the Tonearm suggestions are interesting. I have a feeling that your friend has mistaken the alignment problems I spoke of in other posting in this thread as manufacturing problems. Nevertheless, his comments are worthly of follow-up.
Lastly, I have received some experimental compounds via a manufacturer that are claimed to deadened vibration(s) on contact. I haven't cracked the cans but intend to "play" with the stuff. |
Oilman : For soldering , take a piece of 400 wet sand paper gently brush off the laquer on the ends of your wire. Check wire for continuity. Use a Radio Shack soldering holder (maybe available online) make a tight mechanical connection touch the phono plug with a 30 watt iron , touch the iron with the thinest silver solder --There you have it. I have had great sucess with the new battery operated solder devices but take care the carbon-type tips crack and keep a hand full of replacement batteries nearby. |
Oilman: A suggestion . Eminent Technology is currently selling a carbon fiber wand for the ET 2.5 Tone-Arm for $400. Perhaps , Bruce Thigman would consider making a modification of his tone-arm to fit the maplenoll ? Bruce's knowledge-base is significant regarding the Maplenoll Tone-Arms. His email is brucet@eminent-tech.com Should he respond in the positive , I too would be interested. He also has developed tone-arm wire second to none for airbearing arms. |
Oilman :
I spoke to Mr. Thigman who declined for business/cost reasons to participate ;however, he is forwarding some arm wands that may or may not fit w/o modification.
Mr. Thigman did advise that I his knowledge base is confined to his air bearing arm and that dispite claims on the internet , he actually had no personal involvement in the development of the Noll lineup. |
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Oilman: Anything that is forwarded by ET that can be considered an improvement shall be openly shaired. |
I have found that one can change the sound using the oil trough by slightly lowering the oil fill line and replacing the oil paddle with a pointed screw . The pointed screw glides thru the oil bath with less effort; the highs seem to improve. I replaced the oil-bath with Amsoil synthetic 5w-30 in the trough. |
Note: A pointed fine threaded bolt (minus the head) works equally as well. A short piece of tubing slid over/down the top of the bolt can replace the locking nut. The sum total weights less than the factory locking nut/paddle that may or may not be an advantage regarding compliance factors with certian cartridges. |
2nd Note: A quick-fix to finding a pointed fine threaded bolt : Go to Home Depot , find a metal toggle bolt package , many contain pointed fine threaded bolts as part of the toggle bolt assembly. Buy a toggle bolt package ,remove the pointed fine threaded bolt that holds the toggle bolt assembly together , cut and burnish the pointed bolt to size as a replacement for the 'Noll paddle. |
Threaders: Just a mention ... HarborFreight.com is advertizing a Air Filter / Regulator # 1118 for $20 in store , $27 online. I use one with my Maplenoll and feel it has contributed to my satisfaction with the Air Control System. You can go to the web site and examine the detailed instructions. Don't purchase unless you feel it shall improve your current set-up. Just remember the all the pipe threads must be sealed to be really impressive. Any air leaks totally delay the results until sealed. |
Oilmanmojo: Perhaps you can help me. I broke the air barb that screws into the the air manifold and have yet to locate a part source. I believe we shaire the same manifold. Have you by chance ever unscrewed the barb off for sizing or do you know of a source for one ? Many Thanks |
Gf gumby:
Good to have you on board. Admired your work from afar.
Do you have any pic's of your work on the lower plate of the air bearing ? Please be a tad more detailed re: "clean up of the casting helped ". Thanks |
Oilman: Quite exciting. Very professional job. Looking forward to your comments on performace , ect. in the near future. |
Olimanmojo : Impressive and innovating ; you win the "brass ring" . Great work |
Oilman: Kudo's to you . The tonearm does appear impressive and most certianly is a significant improvement over the stock model. Unfortunately, I'm a little fuzzy on the mechanics based on the pic's. I would appreciate a few more pics and close-ups whenever you have the time. Congratulations on your accomplishment. |
Oilman: How is the Tonearm ? |
Jdubs : I agree we should keep this thread going. Charlie |
Oilmanmojo: Just a tad too busy with non-audio stuff. Great pic's and information. |
Oilmanmojo: How is the arm & oil paddel combo now working ? |
Oilman: Sorry for the late response. Lots to mention but due to the medical detour no changes yet on the 'Noll front. As timing would have it, I also aquired a LP collection ( 1960's rock LPs) - So far I have 200, several hundred supposely on the way ; many UK and German pressings @ 1967, significant J. Hendricks ,those are all mint - US pressings. Lots of gatefolds and alternate covers. But No Beatles. Oil, call anytime for a chat on steaming or anything I can assist you with.
Today, I'm attending a "East Coast Audiophile Society " gathering. Many audio designers and friends are coming several fresh from the CES. Frank Schroder, the tonearm designer, is scheduled to be in the group as is Peter of Soundsmith and Pierre Spray of 'ol Maplenoll fame along with others.
Should the moment present itself , I'll smooze over your arm which appears to me to be a impressive step forward.
Chat Soon, Charlie |
Oilman, You have developed perhaps one of the most remarkable and cost-effective turnarms that duplicates what has not been obtainable for we lessor audiophiles. Thank You for opening the door... |
Piedpiper has agreed to join in the project , in a couple of months. He's currently on the road. The schedule is OK with me , another Christmas present is a good thing. |
Readers: I am in the process of reviewing a new, inovative product " The Friction Damping Tonearm" a patient pending TT whose parts appear to cost next to nothing with a potential to replace tonearms as we know them. Nothing is certian , no opinions other than what I expressed. More to come much later. |
Readers: A tidbit or two. As may know I'm dedicated Noll'er. Unless you are one of the most fortunate of all owners, this table can drive the novice crazy with all its querks. For instance, I recently had a email exchange with a fellow who did not know the air plenums adjacant to the quite air pump need to be evacuated of water every 6 months or so. He didn't ; waste water in the two small pleniums backed-up into the pump, there goes $700 bucks. Another, never move the Noll with the platter on. That one cost me the center pin , a hard bird to find. All the best. |
AS may know ... As you may know ... (sorry) |
Readers: This weekend I received a flyer in the mail from www.harborfreightusa.com, detailing sales to 6/9 including a Central Pneumatic, Quiet Pump: Oiless Compressor,1/4 horsepower (rated) with Air Tank Capacity 3 Gallons (Model # 90168). According to a review of the manual the max. pressure is 120 PSI, Air flow Capacity.5 CFM@90PSI,.7 CFM@40PSI with a weight of 18 LBS. The sale price $67.00(regular price $84.99); the pump is made in China. The pump pictured in the flyer is complete with regulators ; gauges and pressure switch (all UL listed). Perhaps a replacement to Maplenoll quiet pump ?? Personally, I'm going to drive to the nearest outlet to give it a look over as a reserve unit. Just want other 'Nollers to know the information. |
R: I drove to the closest Harbor Freight and "auditioned" the quite pump. The news is mixed. It appears the pump can power a 'Noll and while it is "quiet" no Super Quiet here. The pump seems quieter than the origional 'Noll 20 PSI but much noiser than the Super Q. It requires a sound damping enclosure and placement far,far away but on a tight budget with no where to go ... It is a inexpensive limited option for the DIY'er but no Super Q. I only used it @90PSI so perhaps its a tad quiter @40PSI. |
Readers: Those of you rebuilding the air control system might want to consider purchasing item # 01118, Central Pneumatic, Air Filter/Regulator Unit on Sale with Harbor Tools.Com or a store nearby for $29.00. The unit looks like its a part from the boat "African Queen" but it works. Just remember to dope all the connections. What does it do? The unit regulates air pressure from 0-160 PSI and removes moisture and oil from the compressor lines w/ a reusable filter element.In combination with my entire air control system, it works very well. Its the "heart" of the air system. Cheers |
A better web site for the air filter/regulator unit, item 01118, is www.harborfreight.com |
Piedpiper: To be sure I understand: The modification suggested is to replace both the arm tube and tone-arm with balsa , rather than to uncap the arm tube to insert a snugg fitting balsa dowel inside the tube ,itself, then regluing the end cap. Should I replace the arm tube, a Woodcrafter store is close and I recall a dowel department-all types. Getting a dowel turned is the tricky issue. I presume the dowel shound be fine sanded, sealed, painted , lightly sanded (800 grt)and perhaps resealed. P/P I understand the weight & pressure issue. Even with a second pump as Oilman I doubt I could get more than 4-5 PSI, presently I 'm @46 PSI. Readers please feel free to express your comments/ideas. |
Threaders: I have been re-reading many of the 'Noll articles and an interviews with folks associated with air bearing tonearms and tables. Somewhere between page 1 of the re-read and today my "big picture" view of Ariadne's changed . The use of a stethoscope push me over the edge. The conclusion : These tables are noisey just like So-an-So argued. Why ? For its all in the micro-world; the noise of the motor, the sound of air pulsations ... you can't deny what a "stet" sends to your ears.
Certianly, the air bearings help but these tables just breathe way to much. Whats funny is the air-control system I built is pretty much dead quite @ 46 PSI. So, whats up ?
Perhaps,an answer is between the Web postings that claim the Athena's got it so right they just blew the Ari's away in the sound department ... Thats when a few things clicked. Could it be that those Ari's noises are associated with audio reflections related to the coupling to , or the interface of one sub-unit/part to another? The Ari's has hard surfaces, not lead or wood via The Athena . Its a fact ... All Ariadne's are covered in a hard surface that stuff sits on or is attached to or bolted together.
In conclusion, the Ari's are micro-noise machines in need of good isolation/damping. Noth'in new here. Piedpiper mused on that somewhat in the past. But, I now view the problem as significant enought (regardless of whats been already done)to warrant a re-build.
Before going any further, I want to return to the Air Control System. Its nearly dead silent so why is the table so noisey ? One guess (besides removing the motor)are the SOTA damping materals used in re-attaching the pliniums , tubes , regulators and air control units together , the table is actually void of that stuff. The other issue is the Ari has too many inherient clunks when one taps on the table. For example, the metal spacers that hold the air manifold in place are hollow an' noisey when tapped with a fingernail. The "Stet" send that clunk right to your ears. Why not replace them with 1+" wooden dowels w/drilled out centers enought for the bolts to pass thru , a thin coating of dampining goo painted top an bottom of the dowels ,as well as, the inserted bolts painted w/ goo as well. Or, just fill the open metal rings with dampining goo?
Now I'm facing a real challenge. Sometime soon I'll put into practice what which I feel will bring my 'Noll to new musical heights . Any new ideas appreciated. 'Nollers stay tuned. |
Thanks for the advice : I agree "the proof is in the music,not in tapping". Be assured I shall experiment as to which resonances need to be evacuated and those that can be damped, as well as, those better left alone.
The areas I intend to focus upon are: The manifold & supports,the addition of a micro thin perforated interface between the top bearing plate and the lead platter , a small micro-fine mesh screen insert that covers but not obstructs the offset air induction-hole built into the inside the bottom plate; the use of high temperature-solvent resistant thread dampener rather than super gluing some parts/screws , the isolation of motor resonances using soft gel compounds ; a removable insert that slides into the 7" tonearm that can be adjusted as to length & will not alter arm's mass while reducing resonance and lastly using metal tape to block potential RFI exposure where the RCA jacks had once exited out the Table.
When I determine if any of these ideas work I shall post the results. Any and all ideas appreciated. |
FYI: The air bearing and tone arm have been disassembled. A carbon fiber (now) & wood (later) arm tube w/slight modifications to the arm lift on back of the manifold , bass & lead counter weights for the arm , the bearing tube opened & filled w/ GE dampner, maple plugs countersunk w/ brass threaded incerts for the tube,VTA unit modded and walnut supports for the manifold . AQ phono plugs w/cardas phono wire for the carbon fiber , 46 ga. 9x9 solid copper for the wood arm. The manifold is to be cleaned , inner sleeve brushed & manifold lightly dampened. More later. |
Piedpiper : Thanks. In regards to the motor issue , I aquired a complete motor , base and wall-wart. I will replace the wall-wart with a much better power supply.The motor unit is to be pluged into a line-controller so speed issues will not be a problem.
I have stocked Lo & Hi Teck materals ; most are available at lo-cost. Work is to begin as soon a few buds assist to dismantel the Ari.
The center pin is to be examined for possible replacement. The origional pin was replaced years ago. It is my opinion the center pin is a weak link. I did attempt to have a ceramic-compound pin made but no one wanted to do the job . My tool&die maker friend has retired to somewhere in Germany (ceya). The balsa idea seens to be a good one. But, how do you open the arm tube with the plastic plug already cemented in ? |
Oilmanmojo : Thanks for the info. charlie |
Piedpiper : How about a Bud instead , actually I prefer red wines. According to Johns Hopkins the mushroom is the ticket.
I'll know soom if the foam sealant is the ticket is or out... The good news it can be easily removed not like past products. Enjoy your neck of the woods. |
'Nollers : Following watching Jolie in "Wanted", I stopped at the local WoodCraft Store chatting with the store manager "EJ". We discussed the possibility to convert several metal parts on the Ari' into wood. I infrequently visit this place just scanning over stock for ideas. EJ mentioned that a former employee is a world-class woodworker and analog-head. The guy apparently is into turntables and maybe interested in making a few replacement parts.EJ said he would attempt to hook us up. I looked over a selection of exotic hard woods & dowels ; ideas kept popping into the mind-broth. Nothing firm but also scads of solid brass parts to use as end caps , screws, bolts as well as wood inserts and replacement parts for the air bearing tube and tone-arm. Only time will tell how all of this will "turn" out. Its a good day when I can fuse Jolie and audio-play together. |
Oilmanmojo: You have highlighted a key question that must be answered in more detail. The alternate is to fill the sleeve with balsa. The tone-arm is different from the perspective that once sealed it should not swell. I have some ideas gleamed from conversations with Bruce Tigpan for completeing the tone-arm. At this point I am not convinced that either my initial or later ideas are better relative to each other. Thinking and a tad of time will help. The key here is what EJ termed "reverse engineering" ... I get it. |
Oilmanmojo: As I awoke the medical motto "First Do No Harm", came to mind along with the following;
An alternate route is to apply feather-weight damping compounds developed by GE as mentioned in earlier postings , uncaping the bearing tube, filling the inner space and then recaping.
Or, a complete revision using carbon fiber tubes for the bearing and tone arm (Tks for the idea & materal). As for the tone arm ,the method for internal damping slightly differs: Prior to filling the arm tube a teflon tubeing is centered for the passage of the phono wires(w/exits front & back ) ,light-weight dampner leveled into 70-80% of the arm tube space, back to front. The challenge is of course end cap hardware and the VTA screw shaft, should the design be manitained.
The effective mass of the arm will change ,the "geometry" should be the same. Head-shell weights in different grams will likely be required (ss,lead & brass are options).
Joe Grado mailed his tri-point headshell weights to me years ago. Modified fan weights can be used inconjuction with the Grado Tri-Points, if extra weight is a must. For that, I'll go back to the books for a final answer.
WoodCrafter EJ suggested because the high pressured bearing manifold expells air mixed w/ oil & water vapors , wood is not a first choice for the bearing tube ; all wood swells in time. Filling the factory tube or a carbon redo are options . For the arm tube anything goes, metal, wood or carbon ... Of course, the "math" is important, enought brain goo for now. All the best. |
FYI : Scott Leventhal contacted me with a listing of replacements for the quite pumps. I shall post soon. Scott is one of those unsung 'Nollers always willing to assist. Thanks Scott.
PS. He wrote the more informed manual for the Maplenoll Line. He knows the platform. |
Piedpiper: Thanks for the explanation. I just sent you an email before checking the posts. Have fun. |
Oilmanmojo: Thanks for the input. I feel this is an exciting time for us 'Nollers. What I'm attempting is both short/long term , filling in knowledge blanks and making one last effort using the 'Noll arm design. I do think I'm on to clamping down the vibrations by replacing some metal & plastic with wood 'an GE goo. A little bit of 'Ol Bob, LLoyd , Michael Green , Van Evers and the AG troop with a dash of crem1. The table itself is the object of attention. The Music Hall Motor w/ all the goods should make a huge improvement. Keep up the good fight with your arm design. I never forget how easy it is to unbolt one for another. But everytime I listen to a Frank Schroder T/A I wonder why I don't convert(answer-$$$$). I will keep you informed . |
