Issue is for fine tuning to be done appropriately, one needs to have a system in place and not do what i do.
Imagine if i were to buy 10 sets of footers to try under my amps here and next thing you know i sold my amps and now i have another set of amps? I wouldn't ever finish trying tweaks...
What i can say with certainty is that Artesania Master Kio stands are incredible and look very pleasing to the eyes. |
So when i use footers, so far, i perceive more detail BUT this is not an improvement for me. Brands like gryphon, boulder, Soulution, etc etc DONT NEED help with more detail.
The Mid-Tier and low tier groups will benefit from the added detail but once you are in the top tier i feel the footers take away the soul and inject a ton of detail.
Boulder 2150 was terrible with footers. Lots of detail but i didn’t sit there for hours listening when those footers were installed. Same thing happened with the stillpoints under my Wilson’s.... Massive detail, less bass and zero emotion.
If someone is a detail-freak then yes i see footers being favored but if you want that sound that just touches you emotionally, trust me you won’t accomplish this with footers and ultra high end brands.
If you are making your favorite alcoholic drink and you know exactly how to make it in order to create the perfect kick & flavor, will it be better if you add a couple of extra shots of alcohol or will it throw off the perfect balance you know it has with just the one shot you’ve added in the past?
To me, it will make it taste too much like liquor BUT it will get you f@ucked up faster (IF that is what you are trying to achieve).
To me, it’s all about balance and balance doesn’t mean that sound will excel in every single category.
Viber loves extreme clarity and detail but he has anemic bass. To me, that is NOT good sound because it’s not balanced.
A balanced presentation is what takes thousands of hours to achieve and then you will realize that too much of anything isn’t really a great thing.
I plan to be at capital audio fest in November if all goes well. I will do my best to find the most balanced sound there and report back.
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ok, Viber's amplifier has arrived, but i have a few things i need to clarify: - I WILL NOT be using transparent cables of any kind in the system. These are tuned for my undisclosed amp/preamp set up and i don't want for anyone to say i used calibrated cables that may not be appropriate for this class D amp
- I will be using the cheap speaker cables that you all saw on my videos as well Wireworld XLRs
- Everything will be volume-matched
what I would like to know is WHICH preamp should we use: - Undisclosed preamp
- Soulution 725
- ARC Ref6se
- DAC direct
What amplifier should i use for this shootout: - Undisclosed monos
- VAC 450iq
- Constellation Centaur monos
The only thing i will go ahead and say is that if we choose the "undisclosed amps", i won't be taking them off the Artesania stands because they are brutally heavy. The Class D amp will be on my Critical Mass stand and the VAC monos are on some metal stands that are not anything special. I will wait for your replies before i begin to accommodate things in my room this week. If i were to say what we should use, i would say the full "undisclosed" setup since they are meant to work together and use this class d amp with the preamp from this set up. |
Wireworld platinum 7 and silver eclipse 8 |
I'm getting a lot of votes for DAC direct.... |
The issue is people are used to the full system performance which includes all my cables and preamps.
I will be doing this shootout ONCE.I am not going to rotate gear because that becomes a job in itself. People are saying for me to try the ref6se then my 725 and finally another combination. I can’t go in that quest.
I want ONE COMBINATION and let the cards fall where they may.
I highly encourage those of you who read this thread to go ahead and chime in now.
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keep in mind that a linestage also has its "preferred" amps to sound good. I am good with whatever makes sense guys. I am just wanting to do one single shootout and that is it.
Yes, the Dac direct could mean a little "brightness" will be added, but we all know that.
The 725 is awesome, but i can’t say it has been 100% of the time a full match for every amp i have had in here.
The 725/Constellation was an outstanding pairing, but now i remember that i did have synergistic cables at that point in time and now i don’t have synergistic. Anyhow, I am good with whatever you guys want. Is it possible to reach a decision by tomorrow night so i can begin to record on Friday at midnight?
Discuss it amongst yourselves and i will be checking in. YOU ALL will be directing me what you want front and center. |
Yes - it has the optional preamp module and yes it probably puts a lot of preamps to shame but not the caliber of preamps I’ve had in here.
The only good thing about using the undisclosed preamp is that i can at least use one set of transparent XLR (from DAC to this preamp) since it is calibrated for this preamp and dac. The second XLR would be wireworld which would go from the preamp into the amp.
I also warn you all: as good as the wireworld is, you are still talking about a $3500 XLR versus a $12k XLR. The difference is quite noticeable between both.
I think the presentation would be somewhat more "next level" if we use the undisclosed preamp because one set of transparent XLR would be used. This would maximize the performance coming from the DAC and preamp.
I also don't think that the DAC will quote show the dynamic swings as clear as using one of my preamps.
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Well the one thing i can say is that we couldn't use transparent speaker cables with this amp because the binding posts don't take the massive spades these opus cables come with.
Ok so are we doing DAC direct or not?? |
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Ok guys,
What's the shootout going to be? I need to know today. |
Im going to put out this first thought:
Class D has outstanding bass control. Very impressed with the sheer grip on the woofers. This is why I said it before, Merrill Audio 118s had outstanding bass. I honestly DO NOT think mid tier amps best class D with regards to bass control. The top tier amps have the grip but even those have to fight class D hard in the bass the department.
If you want bass control and can biamp your speakers, do yourself a favor and buy class d for the lows.
The speed of the lows is really next level. |
Ok folks,
The rouge amplifier is plugged in.
Here is what will be happening:
-Rouge amp
-Undisclosed preamp
-Transparent XLR cables (both sets)
Rouge plugged into the synergistic Research Powercell with stock powercord on the amp.
-Straight wire speaker cables
-Critical mass stand under the amp
Initial impressions: (3 mins into it)
Not bad at all.
That said, you all know that i no longer get carried away with 5 min of listening. To me, the connection to the music happens (or doesn’t happen)after sitting down for at least 1-2 hours. My ears will inform me of the character of the component being evaluated.
Tomorrow night, i will do my full audition and recordings. For now, i will let the system play music for the next 24 hours. |
Interesting post above....I guess Keith expressed his feelings on WBF instead of saying it here. |
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Alright guysI tried using the wireworld XLR and to me the transparent XL sound better with the rouge amp even though they aren't fully calibrated for it.
We will use transparent XLRs and straight wire speaker cables. |
Yep i had a feeling mR Joe from critical mass would get his panties in a bunch. I did tell him to his face that these footers were adding artificial sound.
Since Joe is the manufacturer of critical mass, you all can tell him to come here and debate me here if he dares to. I’d be glad to put out my findings in more raw fashion in here.
Nothing will spare him here and on my YouTube channel.
Some manufacturers know better than mess around with influencers.
This is why many are better off staying with their mouths shut and understand that the whole world doesn’t have to like what they produce and they should learn to live with it.
Apple doesn’t lose sleep just because some people prefer Samsung. They don’t come out to argue with the massive amount of influencers on YouTube that criticize the brand. But then again, comparing Apple to Critical Mass is like comparing best buy to radio shack (now gone). |
I agree. I just want to expose the BS that you all don't see.
Anyway, moving on to the shootout. I plan to record the Rouge amp today and the other amp tomorrow. Expect the videos to drop towards the end of next week. That said, i won't disclose which amp is which. I think it's always more interesting when people choose by simply listening. |
Why are people afraid of this? What's this stupid fear all about?
NONE OF THESE MANUFACTURERS PAY YOUR BILLS!!!
Your life won't change because they are mad at you. They don't pay for your mortgage or car (unless you're a dealer for them).
I DO NOT REPRESENT ANY BRAND as of today and this is why I am public about how i feel about them. You think I'd be saying all the things I say if i was cashing checks from them?
YOU ALL, MY AUDIENCE, SHOULD NEVER BE AFRAID to share your own experiences with products you've owned. |
@ronres:
I GREATLY APPRECIATE your post above. You are a class act and you have my full respect. Thank you for clarifying things. |
@viber7:
I only try to give my opinion with things i own. I have never told people or force them to buy what they don’t want. It’s their money and they are entitled to spending it however they want.
Some people simply refute my opinion at first about something and later down the road they realize what i said was actually accurate. This has happened several times.
Thank you for your candor viber7. |
Alright folks,
It’s 2am ET and i have finished the shootout. I recorded 3 songs per amp and will release 3 blindfolded videos. If i have time, I’ll release the first one tomorrow (Sunday)
Will a $1700 Class D defeat 200 watts Class A? Can a $1700 dollar amp unseat amplifiers costing 35-40 times more if it's set up with a high end supporting cast?
Stay tuned to find out!
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Haven't had a chance to edit that part. It will come out. |
Demo #1 of 3 is now live.As always, headphones for this one if possible. I tried hard to level match volumes and recorded things at 1am (you'll see me put the iPad in front of the camera to prove it) in order to have the least amount of AC noise. Please vote on the poll i have posted so we can see how everyone is feeling about both presentations. I also encourage you all to listen multiple times and not just once in order to capture what's happening. Some say to listen at different times of the day because videos sound different (try it for yourself). Enjoy! https://youtu.be/cRtQuIWOzN8 |
Excellent feedback. Keep it going guys
Great showing for Rouge audio for sure!
One thing that needs to be mentioned, this $1700 dollar amp is matched with 400k worth of gear and this matters big time. Don't think you can buy this and take it home and all of a sudden have the same sound as what I'm getting here. Big mistake if you are thinking this way!
PS. I do believe the volume levels might not be 100% the same. Try to turn up the second presentation just a little. |
Please vote and post comments here.
Listen to the presentations on different devices if possible and then cast your vote. Again, try to turn up the volume a little more on presentation 2 which seems to sound a little lower than presentation 1. |
I’m good - i am not going to play elevator, funeral or high end restaurant music to do these comparisons because none of that makes me tap my feet which i need to feel in order to identify the amplifier that touches me emotionally. |
That extra 5-10% performance gain will cost an arm and a leg. No question about it. Some folks are good staying at 80-90% of their full system potential if it means saving money and others want that extra percentage in order to maximize their enjoyment.
That being said, there is something i will say which I haven’t said: i did not have the class a monoblocks connected in over 3 days. I literally plugged them in last night, pushed play and let them get toasty and started to shoot the video.
I figured that given their price points, they should still be able to win.
Next song will be "private investigation" by Dire Straits.
My advice is DO NOT FAST FORWARD the comparison videos. Listen to the whole video at length. You need to let your ears tell you what’s happening.
One interesting thing is that when the video was first released, the poll had the first presentation winning and now a few hours later, presentation 2 is winning... |
One thing that should be said is that a 3 min presentation of ANYTHING will never tell you the full story of what is happening. I’m a believer that for the most part, only living with the equipment is going to be the only way to know everything that needs to be known. I can’t quite capture the emotional part of the presentation through a microphone.
Another thing, which we haven’t really talked about is HOW MUCH of the presentation is getting "cut off" by the subpar speaker cables being used?
After all, this is the last cable before the speaker so I’m wondering if the speaker cables are somewhat of a bottle neck.
Let’s wait until the other two videos drop in order to further evaluate things.
Here's a quick hint for you all: listen to the busiest parts of the songs when comparing the amps. That is usually one way to clearly define what is taking place. |
I think people should understand that the improvements gained by buying something more expensive won’t necessarily ever be proportionate to the extra money spent. However, this isn’t something new. I demonstrated this when I did the DCS vs MSB shootout. That said, if one just decided to not spent extra money unless the improvements are as significant as the extra funds then you’ll never upgrade.
I could bring back the Alexia 2 and compare it to the XLf and via YouTube the outcome could very well be the same as what you are seeing between these 2 amps. I could easily make a lot of you say: " nah i am not buying XLf when what I’m hearing from of the Alexia 2 is 95% of the XLF".
If you are coming from a Parasound stereo amp costing 5k MSRP and upgrading to a 22k boulder 1161 and the expectation is for it to be 4 times better, you'll be disappointed. No level of improvement should be measured by the added money spent.
The Mephisto stereo was like 61k right ? You think the Mephisto monos are twice as good as the stereo given that they are twice the money? Nope...I'll say maybe a 10% -15% MAX. |
Agreed. That said, is this going to sway you away from moving up to Boulder? There’s only one way to know and unfortunately that means buying it and trying it in the system you’re familiar with.
Don’t be relying 100% on what you hear through YouTube. It’s understood you don’t get the full scoop doing it this way. You KNOW this is the case.
Yes, i have said amp A kills amp B in the past but you know why i can say that? I’m in the room and that makes the biggest difference. YouTube is good but it’s not going to translate all that’s happening in the room.
If you prefer presentation 2 instead of one then YouTube has done its job with you. Don’t expect YouTube to quantify things. It has never done that and it never will.
I also encourage everyone to read the comments on YouTube. It’s additional feedback that you can use to see how you feel versus the world.
As of today, presentation 2 is still ahead so you seem to be aligned with what the rest of the world is hearing. 😁
If I’m going to add my own opinion from inside the room, I’ll say one of the presentations has more of all aspects I’m looking for while the other just "plays along" pretending to mock the better component.
Another way of putting it, is one these presentations is the original super car and the other one is a car replica (kit car) that looks damn near identical 5 feet away but as you get closer you begin to see how the hood isn’t properly aligned with the quarter panels and other imperfections are quite apparent as do you a walk around.
Unfortunately, you all are doing a visual inspection of both cars at 5-10 feet away and I’m the only within 1-2 feet.
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Understood. To me it sounded like you were pumping the brakes because of the video i released.
This is nothing but great entertainment. Folks who want to spend $1700 should be happy to hear what I’ve presented so far. There’s more to come though. |
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let’s see how many bite on this last video... Confusing messages are in full display on the last video (if you watched it!)
Is presentation 2 really the class a monos or is Jay throwing mixed signals ?
this is the beauty of this !!!
if you watched the whole video, you could have seen the time in which this video was shot. |
The only real reason why it is getting a ton of attention is because people want to see an affordable amp versus an expensive amp... |
Interesting... presentation 2 seems to be in the lead based on poll results. |
Just focus on each video as individual videos. Choose which one you like. |
So i have been told several times today that the transparent opus speaker cables made massive difference even more than the amps.
Thoughts? |
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So i uploaded the 3rd demo last night and YouTube sends me an email that the song i had selected was blocked completely and i can’t share the video...
Here’s the kicker: i have the Soulution 725 linestage installed in the system so i will have to record the 3rd video with the Soulution 725.
So for this 3rd and final video, remember it is a different linestage plugged into a Nordost qb8 instead of the synergistic Research Powercell (i found that to be too hyper detailed with Soulution 725).
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Thank you Paul!
It's been a tough shootout for sure. That said, the 2 polls have the second presentation winning on both videos.
The question remains, is the class A amp the first or second presentation?
Today i plan to shoot the final video using the Soulution 725. I think this will be an interesting video if you ask me because it will allow us to see if maybe with this preamp things are easier to pick apart or maybe they are just as hard.
What i did want to say is that the speaker cables certainly are a bottle of neck of some sort. I can't say for sure HOW MUCH they are impacting our findings but with a system this revealing and the fact that we are talking about speaker cables which we all know are perhaps the most important cable in the system, the impact might be larger than we know. I really wish I could have used transparent opus speaker cables but the spades are huge and don't fit the binding posts on the back of the rouge amp. I think that even though they are calibrated for the mystery amp, they would have sounded better on the class d amp than the straight wire speaker cable brand we are using here. |
Ok guys Here’s the final demo which includes the Soulution 725 preamp. It’s been hard to do this but fun at the same time. My raw thoughts to come later this week. https://youtu.be/oYtp3f5lw5Q |
Post your thoughts and vote on the final demo video https://youtu.be/oYtp3f5lw5QThis 3rd demo nails the differences between both amps... I don’t know if it was the addition of the 725 preamp, the song i selected or me not using the Synergistic Research Powercell to plug the preamp into. Ok guys - Jay is going to relax and let you all give me your impressions on this last video. Let me hear it! |
Interesting comments. Keep them coming!
Where is everyone else with regards to the last demo?? |
video is dropping soon... be on the lookout for it! |
ok guys,
the video with my thoughts from inside the room will be released today. Stay tuned for this. You won't want to miss it! |
My comments are coming soon. The video is almost 30 min long ( i did not want to do a 2 part video of 15 min each) so PLEASE watch the entire thing. If you skip, you will miss on a lot of information and small details i did not disclose on here. You cant get finger happy and scroll around or you will miss things. DO NOT SAY I DID NOT WARN YOU!
Set aside 30 min and watch it.
video drops today at 1:15 PM EASTERN TIME |
ok folks, video drops today at 1:15 PM Easter Time LOTS OF INFORMATION ON IT SO WATCH THE WHOLE THING IF POSSIBLE ! https://youtu.be/UmDcEYOnq_s |
i hope you all enjoyed the video and that you watched it entirely. I gave a bunch of feedback about the amp so don't miss it.
I am now tired as hell, i need to unpack my music server (tomorrow perhaps) and have a nice drink tonight and watch the Concacaf World Cup qualifiers tonight.
Thank you guys, greatly appreciated! |
In order to get us back on track:
No music server for me .i just unpacked it and it was damaged... Fed ex kept it at customs for nearly 3 weeks... Ugh...
Also, i believe the Soulution 725 is going bye bye. A new linestage is being built for me from a brand I've never owned before. Stay tuned for more. |
