WC,
Great video and pretty much highlights the things that you've mentioned along the way. In just listening to your videos, I have preferred the Wilsons and the Focals over the panel speakers.
Dave
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speedbump6,
I listened to a bit of the video where WC is deciding between the Wilson and Focal. He mentioned he had comments favoring both of them. I think it came down to what WC preferred most at that time. And, now I also understand, based on what WC recently mentioned, that it can also have to do with what product will be of the most interest to those watching/listening videos and this thread.
The Focal's were the Scalas, and techno__dude mentioned the Maestro's. That would be interesting to have Maestro's vs Alexia 2's. Might end up with the same result, or, maybe different. I think the Nordost cabling was too much with the Focal's, so it would be interesting to compare Maestro's vs Alexia 2's, now that WC is stepping a little bit away from the Nordost.
Dave
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Just an opinion here, but I doubt that there'a preamp section of any DAC (regardless of expense) that's as good as a separate well-engineered preamp. The advantage of a DAC used as a preamp is basically a shorter signal path with less external components in the path. However, that can often get outweighed/outperformed by a better built external preamp. Of course, there's much more items to add and tailor the sound of an external preamp - power cords, interconnects, additional shelves, cable lifters, vibration control, fuses, another power conditioning outlet, tubes in some cases, etc. Lots of $$$ and time involvement. I'm sure some folks would rather spend all of that money on better speakers/amps/dacs than on an external preamp setup and tweaking. I'm betting that WC, with his vast experience thus far, probably has an opinion on whether it would be better to put money into a preamp and all the fixings or upgrading speakers/amps/dacs.
Dave
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Good question WC!
For me, I've had my speakers for longer than I've known about Tekton, and I have no reason to replace them. However, once they're old enough and don't perform as well, I will look for a replacement. I would not mind at all trying Tektons at that point, especially with a 60 day risk-free trial. Nothing better for me to judge a speaker than to bring it into my home.
Dave
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viber6,
I understand what you mean by cutting the fat and looking better, and sometimes I’ve experienced that with audio where the fullness was not natural and needed to lose some of the fat.
However, I have also experienced a presentation where there was thinness and something was missing. In this case, it not only cut the fat, but also a portion of the muscle. In those cases, the bodybuilder with reduced muscle will most likely not win the competition, even if they have no fat.
Dave
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kren0006,
You might have missed the part where viber6 mentions that the bodybuilder "maintains his strength", so the 70% of the previous amount does not apply (not sure where you got that anyway?). Nothing wrong with viber6 and theorizing based upon logic. I don’t believe viber6 is trying to speak for WC, as viber6 mentions "For me..." in hs post. I would love for this thread to keep going, and it would help if you stop picking on folks like vber6. There are more friendly ways to approach differences.
Dave
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Very nice video this evening WC. Congrats on your journey and all of your experiences with the gear that you've owned. I truly admire your ethics, as supported by what you mentioned in the video. You deserve the Consulting position you are in now. Dave
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Good point viber6. Would Be tweeters be worth paying an addition 200% more of the original speaker price? Also, would the Be tweeters be too much of a good thing? I guess the other option is to only change the one center tweeter on each speaker, which would be a lot less money.
I am also looking forward to WC’s video on the CM stand, as well as the new speaker cables, etc.
Dave
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WC,
I agree that the preamp is matching with the amp. I'm also guessing that the AQ cabling and that new amp stand are breaking in and having a very positive affect. Seems to me that you are getting both slam and delicacy, as well as detail/resolution and liquidity - you're getting it all. I wish I could be there to take in the layering you must be getting. I think you already had the start of this before adding the preamp, and now it's getting even more refined. I can only imagine what it will sound like, once you add an upgraded power cord to the preamp.
Dave
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kren0006,
It's ironic that you mention I am the one stirring up trouble. No worries, I'll leave that up to the moderators (an objective party) to decide. If it's ever me, I will definitely change my behavior.
You and viber6 coexisting? Looking at some of his posts just from today - he's having to defend himself from your comments. Perhaps that's your idea of coexisting?
Dave
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kren0006,
You are absolutely correct on that point - regarding your posts. Yes, it’s an audio forum - a forum that has rules.
Dave |
kren0006,
viber6 described your remarks, in his eyes, as vicious. Your response is that there was nothing vicious or insulting about your comments. I’m letting you know what I think about your comments, in hopes that future comments could be more civil. Ultimately, it’s needed because I’d like to see this thread continue. Had your comments been more civil towards viber6 to begin with, then we would not have had all the posts that followed.
Dave
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jetter,
Recent activity (post removal plus moderator intervention, plus complaints about how folks are treated) would show otherwise to what you mentioned, so a primer on how to post could definitely be helpful. Otherwise, the road towards closing this thread is actually shorter than you might think.
Dave
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cleeds,
Thanks so much for your post. Yes, reminding of the rules and FAQs could very well be what is needed. I also like what you quoted. That very much supports the point that is trying to be made here.
Dave
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I'm going to kindly disagree with you techno__dude. My guess is that WC would not mind at all doing a comparison of expensive preamps vs inexpensive preamps. If someone sent him a preamp, he could do the comparison and reveal the results to everyone. It would also build on his experience that could be used for his consulting and could possibly expand his clientele - that is, if that's what he wants to do.
HOWEVER, regarding preamps that he looks to buy and try in his system, that is quite another thing than someone offering a preamp for him to try. I'm totally on WC's side that it's his choice. If he decided to buy the LA4, just to satisfy you, then many more folks would start demanding that WC try their brand of component, cable, etc. Look, this is his money and his choice. If someone becomes so demanding and telling WC try this product or that, then I think the onus is on them to provide that product, not WC - plain and simple. Demanding that WC purchase it is absolutely unreasonable.
Dave
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Sounds good carey1110 - looking forward as well.
Dave
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jmeyers - it's an ever-changing and evolving system. Your best bet is to catch his video, where he discusses the equipment in use.
Dave
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Great post WC!
Your post does a great job of illustrating differences in preferences. For example, your description of the dac-direct probably aligns really well with viber6's preferences - clarity, lower volume listening, smallest nuances, minute details, etc. viber6 has said many times to get components with more clarity and just lower the volume.
And, folks like viber6 should also recognize that your preference is different from theirs, and that you like to crank it up another 10 db's and not have to worry about your ears burning up. For you, that is more preferred than lower volume and more clarity.
The difference in preference will then help to dictate which components and cabling cater to that preference. This is why you've mentioned that you are just trying to one-up what you are trying to accomplish - for your preferences and not anyone else's.
Dave
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kren0006,
I definitely understand what annoys you in this situation and that you prefer to discuss equipment that WC has owned. I'm sure there are also others that feel the same way you do.
And, there are others that don't mind discussing equipment that WC has not owned. You mentioned "endlessly droning", but to me they are small discussions that come up every so often over the life of this thread. Then they disappear for a while and then come back again - probably because of some trigger. Like viber6 mentioned, the trigger for him was the tweeters.
The nice thing about these small discussions and speculations is that they might produce fruit at some point in the future. For example, we did not have speedbump6 posting on this thread until recently, but now that Tekton gets brought up again for the nth time, we find out that he has both Wilson and Tekton. And, in the future we might find another user who owns both a product that WC has owned, along with one of the products that folks are speculating about.
Everyone has their own levels of tolerance - some don't mind the small discussions and some mind it very much. That's why it's easier to suggest to scroll by those discussions for those who do mind it very much.
Dave
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kren0006,
Some folks have suggested Alexx as well, but I don't see that in your list. Lots of other things have been suggested - not in your list. Your list seems to narrow focus to certain individuals suggestions.
So what if WC isn't interested in purchasing - I already mentioned that. There's a lot he's not interested in purchasing. Doesn't mean we cannot discuss it. This is an open forum and it's Audiogon's forum and thread.
Plus, even if WC does not have an interest in a piece of equipment, you never know if someone else has had experience with what WC has had, as well as one of these items that WC is not interested in. In fact, we do have someone who has Wilson and Tekton, so there you go. I, for one, am interested in hearing what this user has to say.
Again, if it's not interesting to you, then move on and scroll by or contact a moderator.
Dave
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WC,
It’s been mentioned before in this thread (and you somewhat agreed) that you have folks who come here put other users in their place, because you don’t want to be the guy that does that. So, carey1110 might be more spot on with his comment than he even realizes. Not saying it’s a bad thing - it’s just something that has happened in this thread.
I agree with carey1110 - it's a thread on Audiogon, and the thread just flows as it will. I think the talk of things like Rane, Tekton, etc are short-lived snippets that drop in from time to time. Really, the thing that draws them out more is folks commenting on how they should not mention those items. Just scroll by and let it go, and it will disappear. If it does not, there’s nothing wrong with asking a moderator to encourage those folks to start a new thread on their topic.
Dave
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This expectation that any speaker manufacturer is expected to provide WC with a pair of speakers seems just ridiculous to me. Do we have that expectation of Magnepan, Revel, ML, Wilson, Focal, Rockport, etc, etc? Why not? If we have that expectation from Tekton, then why not any of the others? Why single-out a specific brand?
So what if a few folks here are suggesting a lower-priced option that might be better than its price. If WC is not interested, then he doesn't have to consider it, and discussion can be just speculation. Nothing wrong with that. However, we do have one of the folks here with both Wilson and Tekton, so maybe that person can comment.
Ultimately, it's good discussion - I'm interested and curious. If you don't think it's appropriate for this thread, then either scroll past or take it up with a moderator to get an objective point of view.
Dave
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kren0006,I was just kindly offering options, since you are trying to exert control over this thread.
Dave
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kren0006,
I've been on this thread for ~4 years now - so if that's late arrival, then guilty as charged. BTW, have you been posting on this thread for longer than that?
I doubt that there were 10,000 posts for a Bryston stat in this thread. Not sure where you are getting that number?
I think a good stat would be to compare the number of actual posts on the Tekton in the last page or two vs. the number of posts that have resulted from your comment that started this back/forth. I imagine many folks are just scrolling past our back/forth.
Again, just a suggestion to scroll by the posts you don't like, so that you end up with the posts that make you happy, and we can eliminate this back/forth and have less posts for folks to scroll by.
Dave
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Understood WC. I see some removed posts as well, so perhaps we're at a good breakpoint and we can move forward as you mentioned and get along as best as possible.
Dave
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viber6,
It’s been mentioned many times already for WC to buy a Tekton, but he mentioned that he’s not interested in buying one at this point. I myself would love to have WC try a pair (especially with the Focal tweeters) and compare to the speakers that he’s had recently. However, it’s not happening, so no reason to continue to repeat.
Dave |
Just imagining if WC had two of those Mephistos - Solo Monos - then he might also DRAIN the house next door!
Dave
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Sounds really good. Are the Focals new and still breaking in? If so, I'm sure the bass and midrange dynamics will open up more.
Dave
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WC: "I’m not sure I’ll ever do panels again."
kren0006: "Hear that? No more panels for WC. So let’s try to stick to discussing
the stuff WC has and has had previously, or at least the stuff he has
not preemptively dismissed, like panels which would include GTA..."
kren0006,
Again, you are putting in efforts to tell folks what to do and try to control the thread. The problem is that WC did not say "I'm sure" - he said "I'm not sure". And, as we know with WC, anything is possible. So, the statement you made - "No more panels for WC" - might not be accurate. Just a thought here - I think if we just let folks have their couple of posts, it gets done and we move on. Sure, it can get brought up again, but one quick post by WC and things move on. For example, it was just brought up again about doing all sorts of mods to panels, and WC quickly addressed it with a post that basically lets those folks know that he does not want to mess with mods, and he also does not look down on those who do them. Cool, we can now move on.
Dave
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kren0006,
I won't have to give you any advice (as you call it), as long as you return that same consideration for everyone else here.
Dave
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kren0006,
Great call on the Magico! You've been pretty much spot on with some of WC's moves.
Dave
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WC,
I think kren0006 is a great listener and pays attention to the things you've said in the past and present to kind of put it together. Fun stuff!
Dave
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kren0006,
Alexx is a good bet - great points. I'm wondering if Rockport is a possibility too. Again, as WC mentioned, it depends upon the opportunity/timing.
Dave
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Hey, the Focals only lasted 2 weeks, so you never know.
Dave
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viber6,
I am catching up from the last couple of pages. I see that you wrote this:
"The conventional a-phile notion that "musical" means reducing unpleasantness by rolling off HF is incorrect. True musicality means revealing more information in all freq ranges which serves better appreciation of the music from more insightful information delivery."
Ok, so first, you are telling everyone that only your interpretation of musical is correct, which I would disagree with. My opinion is that musical is subjective, and what you wrote about the a-phile notion is probably more correct to the rest of the world. Even the dictionary definitions seem to lean that way, with things like:
1. relating to music.
2. having a pleasant sound; melodious or tuneful.
Your definition of musicality - "I" would say it's more "technical", than "musical". But that's just my thought - again, I think it's subjective and each person's definition is correct for them.
Dave
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WC,
Some folks can't bear the long break in times of those outlets - especially the rhodium versions - so those folks break in the outlet somewhere else. I've seen many folks who replace their refrigerator outlet with the new outlet and let it run for 2-3 weeks, and then bring the outlet back into the room. Once back in the room, the outlet might still need a few days to a week to settle in. Of course, if you want to track the progress through 2-3 weeks of break in, then that works too.
Good luck!
Dave
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Expectation bias would not be the case, when the sounds goes from great improvement to sucks big time. I sometimes envy those who don't believe in break in and can't hear the difference :-)
Dave
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kren0006,
What's negative? "Not surprised" based upon your posted preferences. As you deduce based upon WC's posts/videos, I also deduce based upon your posts. I thought it was just interesting that your question was not - which one is better - but rather, how bad does the Alexx beat the Focal Stella.
I myself would not know, so I would be interested in hearing WC's answer.
Dave
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From kren0006: How badly do the Alexx beat the Focal Stella? Tell us how they compare
Not surprised that kren0006 would think that the Alexx beats the Focal Stella. Interesting though that this question is not getting answered by WC....perhaps in due time. Dave |
Listened for potential, but it already sounds really good! Interesting how much layering I'm hearing - I can only imagine how it is in person!
Dave
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For sure. #9 kind of sums it up - Transparent won't work for Jay's journey.
Dave
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viber6,
"Talking about whether MY definition of "musical" is subjective or not really is a comparatively trivial endeavor. I do criticize the conventional a-phile definition of "musical" as merely being a pleasurable combination of sounds subtracting the harsh aspects. Someone who finds these sounds to be harsh, I may not. Provided that the SPL is not too loud, they are not harsh, but they are part of the complete musical content. So if anything, logically speaking, the conventional a-phile definition of "musical" sound is actually un-musical to a certain extent, meaning that some of the musical information in such audio systems is missing."
Your definition of "musical" is about information being present/missing in the music, and I believe some folks would agree with you. I definitely understand your point of view. However, other folks would describe "musical" in the way it sounds, rather than the amount of information presented. And another group of folks would consider a combination of the two to define "musical". That seems to lean to a subjective point of view on musical. The dictionary definition - a pleasant sound - is very subjective. Most would perceive this as the not harsh sound you associate with a-philes. I believe that pleasant for you is having more information. We could go round and round on this, but I think it's best to leave musical to the ear of the beholder and not make one person's interpretation (yours in this case) the absolute.
Dave
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viber6,
I understand what you’re saying, and I’m sure that many folks might typically evaluate that way. However, the opportunities and timing of those opportunities can sometimes dictate things a different way. There was much to do yet with the Focals, but other opportunities presented themselves.
I’m looking forward to the fun with all of the SR stuff. I’ve seen so many folks on forums call it snake oil, and I’m excited to have WC give his honest opinion of it.
Dave
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Hey, if you have one of those LG or Samsung Smart/Hub refrigerators that play music and you decide to break in the outlet by replacing the refrigerator outlet, then you just might hear the difference in the music coming from the refrigerator :-)
Dave
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WC,
A few quick Q's:
Is the SR stuff new? That could explain the elevated mid/highs and lack of body that folks were complaining about on ytube. Might need time to break in.
Is the SR Atmosphere cabling at the same price-point as the AQ Dragons? Would the SR Galileo be more apples to apples with the AQ Dragons?
I know you have what was provided to you, so you probably don't have a choice.
Dave
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WC,
Did you ever try one of the SR Orange (or Blue) outlets? If you did, I'm not sure if you commented on the outlet. If you didn't, I'd be surprised with all of the SR stuff you had at one point.
Dave
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viber6,
So, if you want to state that definitions are not subjective, then the dictionary definition of "musical" does not agree your definition of "musical". Since nobody else is commenting on this here, perhaps it's better if we take this to PM.
Dave
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I predict JA as the new speakers.
Dave
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It's not that I want JA to be there - just a prediction. OK, now you have me thinking. Perhaps an Estelon or a Rockport?
Dave
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That's too easy, if that's the case kren0006. You do have a great track record with predicting, so you might be absolutely right. However, I think the Pantheon would be the top of the line under $100K MSRP, because the Trident MKII and others are over $100K.
Dave
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