Alright, let’s break this down.
1. A myth, any myth, only exists due to spread of false information.
2. WC declared dac-direct bettering preamp a myth in his video. Not just any myth, but a top 10 myth.
3. I said I hope WC declaration would put a halt to “blabbering wisdom” perpetuating the myth.
4. Without question, Viber stokes this myth on this thread. (Remember I didn’t define the myth, declare it a myth, or declare it a top 10 myth). Probably very soon Viber will revert to pushing the myth again, if history any guide.
So how is that overly negative?
Have I ever, even once, previously complained about Viber perpetrating WC’s myth? No.
But when WC on his channel calls it one of 10 biggest myths in audio, it’s fair to emphasize that. It’s also fair to read into it that he probably doesn’t appreciate being commanded to continually use dac direct, given how wrong he apparently views such advice (else it wouldn’t be a top 10 myth).
If you disagree that it should be a myth or top 10, don’t come at me, take it up with WC.
i suspect Viber’s unhappiness is much more with the rebuke from WC dismantling his cherished myth than he is with me saying “blabbering wisdom” (the horrors!). |
Good clarification WC.
I agree with WC, and stand by my statement that the myth Viber pushes - that due to clarity it is always better to use dac direct - is wrong. No offense to Viber, he is just wrong on this point. |
“Rather than claiming the increased clarity/transparency by omitting the added line stage is a myth, it is more truthful to say... ”
See, this is my exact point about Viber. Took him less than 8 hours to prove it. He is telling WC how he should think. He is telling WC how he should characterize what WC hears even tho he has never heard any of this.
It would be funny if it wasn’t so predictable regarding Viber.
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Listened to corrected 13A video and compared to last 20.7 video.
First on 13A, agree that room correction helped integrate the presentation, making the bass improved, so it sounds better. It was awful before, but sounds pretty decent now.
I think as each setup stands, the 13A and 20.7 overall are comparable in performance. Will come down to personal preference and could imagine preference results of large sample size nearly 50-50.
For me, I slightly prefer the 20.7.
It hasn’t been discussed here since WC mentioned it but I think maintaining both a modest (in WC world that is still a $50k system) and concurrently an ultra system is fantastic. Then hopefully you can try to make both better over time. That would be a blast.
Will you get a lower cost dac like Bartok or Dave or vega 2.1 for the lower system? |
Great! Not sure why you are addressing me on that. I don’t even have a strong opinion on the matter.
But WC does, and that’s what one of his top 10 myths concerned. What I was agreeing with was the superior performance of preamps vs direct in his videos, but due to playback limitations I’m not gonna go to mattresses based on that justification.
What I have a strong opinion against is saying dac direct always superior for pure sound quality, which is what Viber says and which is wrong. WC has proven that is wrong.
WC has clarified several times exactly what his stance is now so I won’t try to speak for him
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Collosseum/ DAW: 10.
Merrill / Alexia 2: 9.
Luxman 900u / DAW: 8.75.
Mephisto / Alexia 2: 8.5 with untapped potential.
Momentum 250 / DAW: 7.75.
Mephisto / 20.7: 5.75.
Mephisto/ 13A: 5.5.
Just my opinion based on what I’ve heard so far in videos. Not trying to convince anyone else. |
Maintaining both systems will have so much more appeal to a wider audience also, and make the consulting better equipped as well.
Good idea if you can swing it |
Come on, WC. Viber doesn’t let any of that get in the way of his pronouncements. He goes purely based off of theory and outdated information. And in his mind he is always correct. But good for calling him out on it.
Doesn’t mean he can’t have the opinion, of course, before all the softies start railing on me.
We all have opinions. Most of us do not beat everyone else over the head with them.
But he and I do agree on 20.7 > 13A, haha. For me it's close to a tossup. Both have pluses and minuses but on balance I like 20.7 little better. |
Right on. Everyone here is an audio crazy to 99% of rest of world so we gotta stick together |
Whoa I could barely get thru all of that but in the interests of brevity and coexistence, and it being late in the evening, I will decline to raise any new objections at this time. : ) |
So let’s hear from the dac direct adherents explaining why the 13A video without the preamp sounded better than the one with the preamp.
Please don’t try to distract by getting into curve panel nonsense. That was a constant across experiments, and thus not relevant here to this question.
I’ll help. Yes, it was clearly better with the preamp across the board IMO. Given the choice of listening to either I’ll choose the preamp vid 100 out of 100 times.
WC obviously agrees.
But dac direct folks: let’s hear from you on why WC is wrong. |
WC and everyone sometimes offhandedly makes a statement like that but most know it is not an absolute. He's only been asked that question 5000 times and clarified it, haha.
The alternative is to always post the disclaimer. |
I’ll let my responses speak for themselves. I won’t try to change your mind Dave, or anyone elses.
Also, I have read the entire thread. This has been going on forever. It's mostly harmless, which is why most of the drivel goes unchallenged, but it is not new. Not saying that everything V posts is drivel, before Dave jumps to that conclusion that is nowhere written. |
Terrible analogy. WC just told you it sounded bad. So in your analogy the bodybuilder who lost fat also was only able to lift 70% of previous amount. More listening, less theory. WC isn't trying to speak for other listeners, and you shouldn't either.
WC, good choice on 20.7 I think. |
I agree with WC. This thread has devolved to point of being not worth the time.
The Mc MA252 sounded good, especially for the price. But if you cannot hear the difference in quality between it and the stuff that normally plays here then blessed are you, for you will not need to spend any more to make you happy.
To use a video analogy, the Mc compared to a nice 1080i TV picture. But in comparison to the Mephisto or Merrill or Collosseum or Luxman it was missing so much detail and texture and layers and definition and frequency extension and dynamics and ......
Again I say, if you cannot tell the difference or if you think a Mytek or inexpensive Bryston sound just as good, ....... well, ahem, then blessed are you. You are whom those products exist for. And that’s fine. Nothing in this should be read as pejorative.
But all that said, if you really believe those things, it is informative of your audio judgment to those who can hear the difference |
There, b4 I could even finish posting WC also rebukes V’s misleading characterization |
That Teaser #1 video sounds fantastic |
Agree on all of that. Yet we (I least I) consistently hear big differences in the video presentations. When i don’t like something I hear I point it out (have done that many times with Mephisto).
Since we can’t be there, it’s the best we got.
Also, and this is important, by now anyone who has been following for any length can tell from WC’s comments about his own gear what he likes and can read between the lines (both before and since YT channel) about what he doesn’t. And based on that we can tell if our own preferences match or conflict with WC’s.
Then, If our own listening impressions concur with WC’s, that is added confidence that what we hear on videos is likely to be our actual reaction if we were there. |
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Viber, you can be upset with me, that’s fine.
Also, I think you misunderstand my motives. I am not here to torment you, only to call out your misleading statements. The same way WC did and has done on dozens if not hundreds of occasions over this thread. After so many times I just have less patience than WC. But I mean you no ill will. |
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The reason I say you are stirring up trouble is because everybody had moved on, but then you come in just now accusing me. That's okay, I'll respond respectfully as I did, but why is it needed? |
I’ll take, "'Only place you’ll hear this,' for $1000"
Answer:
"I wasn’t born with Wilson and Gryphon"
What is "only on an audio forum" |
Looks like that Plinius had msrp of $7800ish per Stereophile 2011 review.
Would be cool to get a true best at $5k msrp WC pick, but it’s probably been so long since you’ve had current models in that price tier that such a rating would be tough.
This will draw some laughs, but the Cambridge Audio Edge W at $4k is really good compared to anything else under $5k that I’ve heard. I own one in my secondary system. One of the Brit audio mags reviewed the Edge A integrated (which has same amp circuit) at $6k and directly compared it to the $11k Hegel H590 and said it was just as good at half the price.
See, I can appreciate the budget stuff too! Just keep it in perspective versus the big boys (not all, but generally). |
On gear pricing and rating, if you’ve been paying attention WC has rated his three best ever amplifiers for the dollar. At under $10k it was Luxman L590axii. I later got WC to admit that nothing under $12k that he’s had including Pass or anything else beat that class A Luxman. At $15k it was Luxman 900u, and at whatever the Gryphon Colloseum goes for, that was the third one. No mention of the lower quality ones like Bryston or others he’s owned (just check post #1 for that list).
Edit: If memory serves, although it wasn't in that video, I am pretty sure that WC has stated in the $5k range some Plinius amp is the best available that he's had. |
Listening beats theory/pontificating/wishing/projecting any day. Always |
New speakers coming, eh?
i predict Magico or Focal (had actually predicted this weeks ago) but I hope instead you’re moving up the Wilson tree.... |
kps I can’t tell if you’re being serious with that statistic or not, but as ridiculous as the stat sounds I somehow wouldn’t doubt it.
If it is true that is embarrassing.
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Right, likely replacing Alexia 2, I’d guess. He said it’s his biggest investment ever, which I’m guessing means it eclipses he Neolith purchase, and he is already pretty far out on the diving board now with the Mephisto and Boulder pre, so I doubt he is bringing in a six figure amp or preamp. Smart money on new speakers, but obviously just a guess.
Reason I’m guessing Magico or Focal is that he referenced Be tweeters recently, and kind of surprisingly included Focal in with a group of brands that are generally considered more elite than Focal.
Best case IMO would be Alexx or even higher up the Wilson tree. There have been some of the bigger boys for sale lately on A’gon. Not optimistic that beryllium tweeters and Mephisto would be great match, but we'll see I guess..... |
Good point. Could very well be the Boulder amp. But he didn’t like the earlier Boulder amp (I think it made his "worst of" list) so would be a bit surprising to go there again??
Plus he’s said pre-Mephisto intro he couldn’t imagine improving on what he expected Mephisto to be. Unless he’s now decided that Mephisto ain’t gonna get him to what he expected to be the summit.
I’m sticking to the speaker guess.... |
I didn’t say for sure they were gone, only that they weren’t shown in the vid! : )
(but I think I’m right) |
I wonder if no coincidence that in today video Alexias nowhere to be seen??? |
Maybe I'll be proven wrong but that doesn't sound like Wilson Alexx to me, and doesn't sound like a Wilson speaker. So I still think the Alexia 2 are gone already.
I'm still guessing some Focal or Magico, like I did earlier. |
I change my guess. I think it is RANE!!! : )
The reveals are much more fun when they are sprang on us out of the blue though, like the 20.7 was. That was frickin’ awesome.
This waiting kinda sucks, gotta be honest. Kinda like that amp you kept under the Pass cover forever. Ended up being a big letdown. Don't even remember what it was... |
I’ve never heard a Magico speaker so I wouldn’t know what it sounds like. But I really didn’t think the video sounded like either Wilson or Focal, so I guess that defaults me to thinking Magico also.
But trying to listen to any presentation, even blinded in person, and to pick from the endless universe of speakers and call it right is really hard. Multiply that by many times over YT.
Reason I said Magico or Focal only based on WC comments over last month and trying to read between lines. Could be way off. Before video I would have thought Focal more likely than Magico. WC seemed to like the last Focal pretty well, they have Be tweeters which he has commented favorably on, and he grouped Focal with Constellation, Wilson, Gryphon, and other higher end brands, even though most of Focals lineup is under $10k (or at least they have many, many speakers under $10k).
So yeah. My sleeper guess, if not Magico or Focal, would be Rockport.
Usually when WC is so confident that something is an upgrade, it means he is going back to a brand he has had before (that's how I knew most recent amp was Mephisto - that was only way he'd have been so confident it would beat Collosseum). So under that logic this is probably Alexx or whatever lands above Alexx on Wilson tree; or the top Focal, six figures. |
When the thread has over 13k posts, it is easy to recognize trends : )
Reason I was able to call the 20.7 move was because WC reaction to 3.7i was so initially positive, with the caveats of not enough bass, and pretty easy jump for WC to go from 3.7 to 20.7 to see how much of 3.7i deficiencies the 20.7 could fix. |
I relistened to the vid of the new speakers.
My sense is they currently sound a little underweighted in bass, but you mentioned they are rattling the light fixtures so maybe it just didn’t come thru on that video or maybe you already made some bass adjustments since that video.
Reason the vid didn’t sound like Focal to me wasn’t that reason tho. Rather, this tweeter sounds much more refined here than any previous Focal tweeter I have heard, which I guess isn’t surprising given the price tier here (not exactly Sopra/Kanta level haha). |
Yeah but which color is better? haha |
Really fun to compare it to the Wilson Alexia 2 video, albeit with different preamps (Boulder here with Focal, WA using Pandora).
Almost sounds to me like the Alexias are slightly more muscular on the Man in the Moon track, but the Focals little more refined.
Really fun to compare. I know which I prefer. Both sound amazing.
Edit: oh and the WA color matches your room better ; ) |
Over/under is New Years Eve
Over -140
Under +105 |
Focal is accessible to any audiophile, because they make $1,000 speakers. Yours aren’t but Focal is nonetheless.
Wilson is not accessible to all but maybe 10-20% of audiophiles, and probably a fair percentage have never heard Wilson speakers or know much about them.
Motor Trend vs Car & Driver
Edit: looks like my theory is almost directly opposite the anonymous opinion. Who knows. I spent about 10 seconds formulating it so, you know ... |
Would be kinda fun. Maybe they can't even beat Maggie 20.7? Let's start there and not get carried away with comparisons to Wilson or the present Focals.
Why wouldn't you want to hurt feelings? If they underwhelm, they underwhelm. Just say it if that is the case, like you did with Accuphase and McIntosh and Martin Logan 13a.
Don't pussyfoot around to avoid hurting feelings. Give us the honest scoop, good or bad. |
No I’m not trying to exert control over the thread. I have no power or desire to do that.
Just trying to keep the discussion on track to stuff WC has or is reviewing by making a suggestion. Very simple.
I’d actually very much like if others sent WC stuff to review. Please do. I’m not against any products, but this is a high performance thread and the products must either be able to hang, or not.
Otherwise there are other threads.
Just my opinion. I said that previously but repeating for you. |
That’s EXACTLY my point!
And exactly why they aren’t really appropriate for this thread at this time (at least until they make an appearance in the ring). BINGO!!!!!
Nobody except Viber seriously expects them to beat Wilson or Focal Stella.
They don’t have to. But can they beat Magnepan 20.7 (or even 3.7i)??? Can they beat Martin Logan 13a?? Or other speakers in the $10-15k price tier. Can they survive in your lower-end, budget system currently including Parasound JC1+ and Maggie 20.7?
That’s more realistic. What’s to be afraid of there??
Are there giant killers out there? Maybe. But let’s see it. "line up or shut up" |
Agree with zprr on Tekton. Doesn’t really belong in this thread UNLESS WC gets them. He is well aware but has bypassed so far because they don’t meet his quality standards, or for whatever reason - doesn’t really matter. Bottom line, he could easily get them if he thought they were worthy but he has not. Deal with it.
I like that the thread is not strictly amps, and the discussion of preamps and speakers and cables is all good, but it’s much better to keep it to things that WC has had.
There are plenty of other threads on A’gon for the Tekton folks, and those of us interested in the stuff WC has can conveniently ignore all of them.
The minute WC changes course and brings in a Tekton, I’ll happily stand corrected.
Note I’m not saying never appropriate to suggest or briefly discuss other options, but the Tektons now encroaching into GTA territory for non-relevant-to-WC-journey stuff that really doesn’t belong in THIS thread. Suggesting once is cool. Going on for pages just pollutes the thread. |
Got it: they’re in the home theater system.
I want to clarify my opinion. I agree that suggestions are great.
What isn’t great is endlessly droning on about a product that WC has made clear he has no interest in purchasing. That is what has occurred here with each of those in my list above. |
Very simple, Dave. Because WC has NO INTEREST IN PURCHASING GTA or Tekton, unlike some of the others you mentioned. And it’s HIS MONEY AND THREAD!!!
He obviously does not feel they are worth his investment. I know that is very hard for some of you to deal with.
So if others feel so strongly that something should be considered by WC (Bryston, Rane, Mytek, GTA, Tekton, whatever...), then provide it. The invitation has been extended. Simple. And if it is not accepted, well, that speaks volumes too.
That’s what so many here apparently fail to understand.
And then at that point that’s what other threads are for, I’d submit. Just my opinion.
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Agree that if those two speaker brands are so great, why are the manufacturers scared to send their products for a demo???
Until they do that you are giving them free advertising here by providing the forum for these fanboys to drone on about them, when the manufacturers (it sounds like) have been invited to step into the ring but they are (again, apparently, reading between the lines, correct if wrong) so far scared to do so.
So unless or until that happens (or if one of the fanboys is so interested Jay has invited them to send their stuff - Viber, still waiting -), why not stick to discussing the stuff in the room or previously reviewed in the room. Otherwise these non-reviewed companies are just getting press they don’t deserve in this thread.
Let me boil this down for those who don’t understand what WC is saying: He ain’t buying the two speakers at issue. Too bad. If manufacturers or fanboys want them in the primetime lineup, step into the ring. Otherwise go away (as it pertains to these products).
As WC gloriously rebuked one member recently, "line up or shut up"
WC, sometimes silence speaks much louder than bluster. It is pretty obvious why some manufacturers (or forum members) might not want to be compared against hi-end stuff head2head. That’s okay, but then this isn’t the right thread for those. And again, you now have a top system (Gryphon/Boulder/Stella) and a budget system (Parasound/Maggie), both good, so any product at almost any price level should not be afraid to step into the ring. There is a weight class for all components in Jay’s room |
See, this is where your late arrival to the thread shows through, no offense intended (seriously).
If I could figure out how to do it I would post the stats on how many time each of those brands in my list have been brought up in the course of the thread, and my "droning on" comment would probably look generous.
Other dude posted the stat for "Bryston" and it was like 10,000 times or something ridiculous.
But again, I am just trying to keep the thread on track, as was mentioned today by another we had a few good days and now here comes Tekton again when WC has said he doesn’t think investment in it makes sense. Take the hint, guys!!
But life is short. If you must, I cannot stop you, haha |
