2. amps-preamps
  3. 126624-10101

My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:

Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005

With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:

ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)

NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)

Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)

rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)

cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)

parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)

lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)

McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.

butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)

pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.

classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)

Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:



PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.

Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.

Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?

Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.

 It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.

Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.

Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.

Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.

Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.

Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.

My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.

That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!


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Showing 50 responses by jays_audio_lab

jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Gs150 to be discontinued in 2 months. Dealers who have inventory will be unloading these at dealer cost perhaps. I decided to wait and snatch one once the dust settles. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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already did that on one of my videos. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Cables should be next on my list. Right now I'm just getting acquainted with the sound signature of this amp. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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ok guys... i couldn’t resist so i pulled the plug on the audio research gs150 today. i have had it playing for about 2 hours and here are my brief impressions:

1. Gobbs of detail. Layer of detail on top of detail. Think of it as ordering your favorite alcoholic drink, but add an extra shot of liquor. in other words, twice as much detail as before.
2. i don’t recognize my music. It feels as if each song now sounds different in a good way. Crazy separation and background noises that i didnt hear before.

3. i do not have to turn it up to make the music come alive. I hear every nuance, detail, and particle of each song at low volume.
4. FAR, BUT FAR FAR FAAAAAAAAR BETTER match than the pass labs 350.8 is with my sonus faber cremonese. It is not even close in terms of detail. I can’t believe how "laid back" my 350.8 sounds when compared to the GS150. Audio Research and Sonus Faber synergy is UNDENIABLE.

Those are my initial impressions. More to come later this week!
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Hi guys, 
a couple of things I want to discuss:
lalitk:-- the added statement you made about my end game being to sell for a profit isn't really the case. First off, I don't have to keep this thread alive in order for me to do what you stated above. I could do that without sharing any of my findings with any of you. I've spent close to half a million dollars since I started this thread. i share this with you all and YOU ALL take my feedback and make a decision as to what you want to buy. I don't hold a gun to anybody's head forcing them to buy anything. 
That said, i also want to add that MANY OF YOU have messaged me asking for amp and speaker recommendations  on my experience and some of you have even bought  amps from me and have been very happy with my recommendations. 
If you all want to go spend the same money I've spent in order to do a trial and error until you find what you want then sure you can do that. 

Fsonicsmith---- I've owned other tube amps. If you followed my thread you'd see I've owned the McIntosh mc2301s, mc275 mk6. 


Minorl---- I appreciate your view on what I'm trying to do here. I'm glad you find my thread of much use in search of the best amp for your current set up. You and many others are what make me want to keep this thread alive. I've had phone conversations with some of you who have thanked me for keeping this thread going. I don't bullshit or sugar coat any product. I leave that for dealers and magazines to do. That's their job. Not mine. 


As i stated before, I gain nothing from keeping this thread alive. Dealers don't pay me to help them move any product at all. I hand pick my amplifiers based on price and resale value and if it's a product that I feel has synergy or potential to to take my system to the next level. If some of you find my thread biased, wrong, not accurate etc then don't follow my thread. Change the channel and move on to reading somebody else's thread. 
My thread is one of the few threads that is constantly updated and keeps going and so it will always have a following. If I had a YouTube channel and did my own reviews, I'd probably be making money from YouTube from all the views I'd have. It's simple and easy to do but I also have a family and a life and don't have time to put that effort in. 

Once again, take my feedback about amps as my personal input. Not everyone will agree with my input but some of you will agree with it. With that said, let me go downstairs and continue to listen to my gs150 / ref6 preamp combo. Cheers !
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Thanks Dave. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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VERY IMPORTANT TIP: I know some of
you might not believe this but you need to try this tip and report back to me. Anyhow, I didn’t believe this until I spoke to a fellow audiophile who’s a doctor. He said to me about 4 months back to try to do critical listening in the morning after a full night of sleep. He said that at night after a long day of work, the human brain starts to shut down all your senses. Think of it like this, ever noticed how your vision gets blurry at night when you’re tired and you start to rub your eyes ? That’s your brain signaling and beginning to shut down your senses so you can go to sleep. Well it does the same thing to your ears by  beginning to tune out noises in order to make you fall asleep. This in turn makes you hear less efficiently at night. Makes sense right ?
So next time you do some critical listening, try to do it in the morning after you are fully rested and you may find the true sound of
your current set up. You’ll thank me ;)
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Thanks for the feedback. I now always say try to pause from passing a judgment quite fast on any amp. I need to listen at night, day, afternoon and try to be rested. Preferably without having used any sort of headphones before. The less exposure your ears have had to music from a car or iPhone headphones etc, the less tired your ears will be. 
As far as powercords, I'll have to order one because as you know audio research has these 20a power cords on one end of the cable so my aftermarket powercord won't work which is a pain. 
At this time, I'm shocked that the 8ohm taps have more volume and more sparkle than the 4ohm. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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One hour into my listening session and I’m having mixed feelings. Yesterday I was very impressed and today im like in the middle. Not sure if it’s that this amp goes through that phase where it sounds bad and then it gets better with time ? I have read that there are certain amps go through a process of charging and discharging their capacitors before they sound good. I believe the Jeff Rowland 925s are the amps that go through this process.
Anyhow, one interesting thing Is that I’ve been playing with switching the speaker cables from the 4ohm to 8ohm connections to see what happens. My speakers are a 4ohm load but I connected one speaker on the 4ohm tap and the other one on the 8ohm and I hear more midrange on the speaker that’s connected on the 8ohm connection. Very interesting indeed.
On another note, this amp is starting to give me the impression that it is unforgiving. Although it's tubes, it still is transparent enough to let you hear bad recordings sound bad. This wasn't the case with the Levinsons. They sounded pretty much good with any sort of source and the sonus fabers. 

jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Thanks david_ten. It’s certainly not easy to do this. It takes patience and constantly taking apart the rack shelf to fit new gear plus rerouting cables etc. Indeed, it’s not for everyone what I do. Lifting monster pass labs amps out of their boxes all by myself has left me with battle scars on my hands and forearms from the sharp heatsinks plus a few herniated disks. That said, it’s still a good feeling that I continue to enjoy until that day arrives when I’ll feel like I’m done with it. I was very much into muscle cars for many  years  but i can’t spend a full weekend working on engines and exhaust systems and not spend time with my family. I realized that I couldn’t continue such long hours on my back turning wrenches so I put that part of my life to rest. I’ve always enjoyed music and I took it to another level once I had put the wrenches away. I enjoy this hobby because it truely doesn’t take anywhere near as much time as working on cars did. I’ve always had hobbies and feel it’s extremely important to have one otherwise life could get boring. I couldn’t be happy if my life was all work work, come home, eat, shower and go to sleep and repeat again and have zero pleasure. That to me isn’t living. To live doesn’t mean you are alive. Being alive is actually enjoying your life with whatever brings you joy.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
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@ron17...interesting thoughts. I really don't think going either route is wrong, but i do believe that a lot of people should find this experiment interesting and recognize that going dac direct is not really better or worse than having a preamp in the mix. Yes there is more cost incurred by adding a preamp and the additional cabling, but if that is not an issue, the preamp can indeed add a lot of benefits. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Thanks for the feeeback fsonicsmith. I will keep everything in mind in regards to your input. I love it the amp at times and not so much other times. It could be me being tired perhaps and not having rested ears. Not sure yet. That said, I can confirm this amp sounds better than my 350.8 does with the sonus fabers. It has plenty of clarity and detail and does so much right. 
I'll keep trying to let it break in for a few more months and then see what turns out. 
I will also attempt to find another solid state amp and see if there's one that can give this amp a run for the money. I thought about a pair of krell 900e monos or Jeff Rowland 925s but I'm not quiet sure. 
I almost bought a constellation centaur stereo amp as well but that deal fell through. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Martin Logan 15a.... Hmm... I'm seriously thinking about it now and kiss the Sasha or focal bye bye and wish them the best. I'm not 100% there yet... Need to digest it some more. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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As far as how it sounds for home theater, i will be very honest here and say that IF YOU ARE MORE HOME THEATER than music, do yourself a favor and buy class d amps. They simply do the job really well with plenty of power and dynamics and for very little money with no heat. The only thing that i warn you all about is that class d technology changes rapidly and the resale value really gets hurt. For example, if you were to buy a pass labs amp for your home theater instead of a class d amp, you have to accommodate for its size, heat production, weight, etc. It can be painful, but when it is time to part ways with it, you will certainly get at least half of the money you invested in pass labs (with a few exceptions of course), but with class d things are different. You buy a class d amp today and in 6 months there is a new class d module and now your amps lose terrible value. Buying class d amps is no different than buying a computer. Go to best buy today and buy a 3,000 dollar machine and then go back to best buy in 6 months and now your 3,000 laptop is worth much less because there is a better computer than yours that costs even less. 
Again, class d changes too rapidly and that is why i choose to stick with solid state and tube amps. Those technologies really don't change much so there will always be a buyer for solid state and tube amps. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Hi Jobloain--- i have experience with theta digital's 7 channel power amp. It was great, but to be quite sincere, i found the bel canto more of a game changer in terms of class d. I really feel bel canto is hard to beat for the money. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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pass labs 350.8 has now been sold to one of you who follows my thread. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Update on my GS150: i have been listening to this amp for about 2 hours today and i can't put my finger on it, but i find it somewhat "bright" sounding. It almost makes you not able to crank up the music because of the brightness. That said, if listening a low volumes is something that someone would do all the time then this amp would reward you. However, certain songs seem to be a little too sparkly and some other songs sound fine. For example, i played some reggae to gauge the bass and low end punch and it sounded pretty good. Nothing really sounded bright, but when i play some Lynyrd Skynyrd, some songs can sound a bit shouty and not too pleasant. Again, these are my initial impressions so maybe things change with time. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
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GS150 update: i can’t believe how loud this amp will play. I can't even dare to crank it up as loud as it will go because it is already too loud. To those of you who think 150 watts isn’t enough, you may want to rethink that. I can’t even go past 30 on the volume on my audio research reference 6 preamp because it is scary loud.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
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Sources are the Rerence Gamut CD Player, Aurender N100H going into a Oppo 205 player. I also have a Sony HAP network player. i don't have a dedicated room, but i have a fairly large living room. I sit 13 feet away from my speakers and the are about 9 feet apart. 
That said, i just plugged the GS150 into the outlet directly. I also might need to perhaps begin to play with the toe in of my Cremonese to see if that helps a little with the highs. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Preamp is the reference 6. The CD player is outstanding. Look up reviews online. Best CD player under 10k. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
I am thinking the same thing. i have been reading different forums on audio research tube amps as a whole and some say 100 hours break in, others say 200 hrs etc. My thing is that you also need to realize that it could also be your ears getting used to the sound and not necessarily the amp changing sound. 
That said, i am going to just let it play and play and i am also going to be bringing my mcintosh c50 preamp which is solid state and see what happens to the sound as a whole. Just to see if maybe the amp would benefit from a solid state preamp in order to smooth things out a little.
Another preamp i am almost tempted to buy is the Esoteric C1, but it is quite a big investment without knowing what will happen to the sound. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Ok guys. I am going to running a very interesting experiment in about 10 days or so. I purchased a monster krell 403e and since krell stated in the manual that tube preamps arent  recommended due to the dc current  tubes pass, damage to speakers can occur with krell amps due to krells own design. That said, I decided to bring a high quality solid state preamp for the krell. I just ordered the Jeff Rowland Capri s2 which is supposed to be spectacular. The goal here will be to do a shoot out of all tubes vs all solid state.
Basically an audio research ref6 and gs150 amp versus a krell 403e with a Jeff Rowland preamp and see what combination will bring the best out of my speakers. Of course, the audio research gs150 still needs to be broken in so I will continue doing so.
As many of you know, the krell 403e is dan agostinos design before he left krell and I’ve heard from several people that it actually is a much better amo than the current classic series amp from the agostino line. In other words, that amp is no joke.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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35 hours into the gs150 and i think i will admit that this amp is transparent for sure. Some material sounds good and some other can be a bit bright at times when you crank up the volume around 90+ dbs. 
I am right now continuing this break in process a few hours a day. Time will tell what will happen. 
I also find it a tad congested at times when playing music with a ton of dynamics. 
After speaking to my dealer, he said it may be the preamp/amp combination. I may have to try either another amp with my ref 6 or another preamp with my gs150 and see which balance i like best. 

jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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My point exactly. Break in is important and I have no plans of selling my arc gear anytime soon. Although I still find it a tad bright, it still sounds pretty amazing. 
Also, one thing that needs to be understood is that my mission here is to try and report to you all and disclose my battles and opinions about what I think about each component that sits on my floor. I'm not planing to marry any of this. I don't keep anything forever. The only component that sat in my living room the longest was the Martin Logan renaissance. 
Más much as I loved them, it was time to try something else. I'm clear on the fact that in order for me to improve upon my speakers it would take a lot more money and even then I'd have to begin to think about room treatments, etc. 
You all should just take my journey and write down my thoughts about a particular component you may be interested in and that I've already reviewed. Think of my thread as another source of information besides the typical lies of magazines that always claim every component is amazing. 

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Tonight is the very first time I can honestly say I have the focal scala beating my Sasha Daw. I spent about 2 hours measuring every single corner of the speaker and to be sure it's exactly the same distance throughout the room and then I placed them on top of the same 2x4s I used on the Sasha and I'm doing 100% nordost cables with the exception being the powercord on the colloseum where I'm using the audioquest dragon and I have zero brightness of any kind even at club levels. No brightness or edginess. I'm now wondering if maybe the focals broke in or am I simply hearing the dividends of the hours I've spent positioning them? I don't know what it is but they are simply sounding the very best I've ever heard them since I've owned them..
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Hi Guido, 
thanks for the feedback. It had read exactly what you described, but with jeff rowland 925 monos. 
With that said, i played about 10 hours of music last night on the gs150 and timer on the back says it has 19.2 hours total. That said, i just turned it on today and i find the sound "warmer" today. It feels as if someone turned down the treble a little (which is a good thing for me). Essentially 20 hours break in time so far and i now begin to ACTUALLY hear a change in sound. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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I actually have been about 2 seconds away from buying that Dartzeel amp :) 
i think it is going to be one to try for sure. i am really curious about it
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Interesting question. Hmmm let me see. I would say that changing a preamp is far more of an audible change than changing  amp. For example, here are 2 possible set ups with relatively efficient speakers:

1. Audio research reference 6 preamp and emotiva sa250 amp

2. Oppo 105d as preamp and a pass Labs amp 350.8

i would say that if the speakers are the same, meaning something of about 93db+, the first set up may best the second set up.



jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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One day my friends. For now and with this economy I can't do that because speakers are too damn difficult to sell once I am done playing. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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An excellent amp typically withstands the test of time. For example, you can grab a pair of pass labs 600.5 monos which are at least a 15 year old design and pretty much kill a ton of new current amps. That said, with preamps it's very different. New offerings tend to dig deeper into the music and paint you a better picture. 

jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Nothing beats a real preamp. No Dac or processor. I've owned just about every processor with the exception of datasat and trinnov. 

jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Preamp right now. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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best processor i have ever owned is between the bryston sp3 and mcintosh mx160. These 2 are just on another level.

UPDATE: I just plugged my krell 403e evolution and my lord talk about bass control and attack. Amazing overhead with gobs of horsepower. It feels as if you can crank it up and never run out of steam and things do not get fatiguing at all. I am attributing it to the preamp since it is tube based. I gotta tell ya, this krell evolution and audio research combo is lethal so far with my sonus faber speakers.
if you listen at low volume levels, the gs150 may be the meal ticket, but if you like to put the pedal to the metal, the krell may have edge since it has nasty horsepower. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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The duo 300 and preamp should be very good. I had the duo and it was good. That said, I will be very honest and say to you the pass Labs 350.8 Kills it especially with Martin Logans. Logans sound AMAZING with pass labs. I've said this many times. I wouldn't even try anything else with them. Trust me on this. 
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jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Alright guys, i decided to plug in the krell 403e via unbalanced connections (krell does not recommend balanced connections when using tube preamps) and although i get a little bit of hum when i am about 2 feet from the speakers, Here are my impressions of the gs150 with 50 hours vs krell 403e:


1. Krell has far more bass control and sounds a bit faster on the bottom end. 
2. Krell has about the same soundstage as gs150
3. Gs150 may have a slight advantage on certain materials. 


That said, i had my wife do a blind test and she chose the Krell 403e. She said it felt as if things sounded "larger" lol. 
I will say that on certain songs, there may be a little more air and last ounce of detail on the gs150 that may be missing on the krell, but again this depends totally on the material. Most people COULD NOT tell these apart. This is either a high praise for the tube amp because it can keep up with the monster krell or a high praise for the krell because it can produce damn near tube sound when connected to a tube preamp. 

And now for the final news... As some of you may know, i had the luxman 900u combo and i really enjoyed it with my 803d3 speakers, but since i now own sonus faber cremonese, i am VERY CURIOUS how that set up will sound with my speakers so i just pulled the trigger on the luxman 900u combo again and it should be at my door next week.  boy oh boy... THIS WILL BE VERY INTERESTING NOW. 

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jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Thanks for the feedback Ron. I'm glad you liked my input and my recommendation. Having owned tons of amplifiers, I can usually have a pretty good idea of what an amp might bring to a system. I've heard many amps in my home and understand the pros and cons of each for the most part. 
Please keep me posted of how the amp progresses. As I stated above, most amps will sound best after a few hours of use. I think the only amps that don't need a warm up are class d amps. 
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jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Dave,
i don’t really run many amps in home theater anymore. To be quite honest i started this journey analyzing home theater amps and sometimes their 2 channel performance as well but using a processor as my preamp. Anyhow this journey has evolved into 2 channel simply because home theater for me has taken a back seat. I enjoy a good movie with great sound, but when you have a 14 month old sleeping upstairs, i cant enjoy subwoofers exploding dynamicly like they should and i can’t have action scenes vibrating my entire room. Long story short, my home theater experience has really diminished due to my daughter. I can’t watch movies during the day because i work and at night i hate having to watch a movie listening at low volumes. I don’t quite enjoy movies when i have to really turn down the volume. This is WHY i shifted over to 2 channel because i can certainly enjoy good music at pretty much any volume. I dont need a subwoofer for it either so the bass created by my speakers isnt of the same depth as what subwoofers do. Maybe one day i will go back to watching movies, but for now i occasionally watch movies with 2 front speakers and 2 surround speakers (no center or subs).
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jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Dave,
that Odeon continues to be the best multichannel amp period. Don't waste your time looking for a replacement because there's none. The only way to improve upon that amp is by buying monos for all channels or a 2/3/2 amp combination. Yes the krell 402e/403e/402e would kill the Odeon but look at the amount of money and the amount of electricity plus heat. 
In a single chassis multichannel amp, nothing beats the plinius Odeon. I don't care where you look. NOTHING. No ATI, theta dreadnaught (yuck), classe, parasound, bryston, nad, Cary audio, etc. 
That is one hell of an amp. 
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jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Anyhow guys, I think the 403e krell has shocked me with what it can do with tube preamps. I am also starting to believe that sonus faber cremonese may sound better with quality watts from solid state amps 
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jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
@ricevs 
Thanks for your opinion of me. Maybe I should give mine about you ? But nah, I'm not going to derail the thread again or start anything especially during these hard times. Stay safe everyone and keep your money tight next to you. 
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jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
I am also having fun with focals and Sasha DAW. I mean , I am playing with speakers that most people would love to have as their own. I'm not playing with best buy stuff...  If I make a move, it is because I want to try something different but this doesn't mean that different will be equivalent to better. 
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jays_audio_lab OP
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UPDATE: i just wanted to let everyone know that the deal with the person i was buying the luxman pieces from fell through so i won't be getting luxman at this time. 
That said, this opened up funds for me to possibly buy something that ALOT of people have praised to me: BELCANTO BLACK SYSTEM. I am not 100% certain, but i may end up selling my audio research reference 6 and audio research gs150 if i decide to buy the black system. It would be a total shift for me to go from all tubes to all class d. However, the bel canto black system is supposed to be the elite in terms of class d. Nothing is supposed to surpass it. 
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jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
i am hoping as well Kenny. I just need to figure out a few things first and then if it all falls into place, i may pull the trigger. 
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jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Update on gs150: So as the break in continues, i STILL find the krell 403e connected to my reference 6 preamp sounding damn near identical to the gs150. I mean, i am closing my eyes and try to find a difference and MAYYYYBE at times and depending on the song i can actually a slight tiny difference: a little more depth in the sound and at times a tad more sparkle, but again this is splitting hairs here and i have to actually be looking for these differences. 
So far, my early assessment of tube amps -this gs150 to be specific- is that i am not impressed and not willing to shell out 1300 dollars for an entire tube set every 4,000 hours when my solid state amp is damn near identical when connected to the same source and same preamp. however, i can see value in a tube preamp more than tube amp. I am telling you all, your system needs to be 200% dialed in for tubes in order to really capitalize on what tubes can do. 
Please note, this is my early assessment of my amp at 60 hours. My preamp has 493 hours so it is already broken in. 
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jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Ok, i will make things a bit interesting here and for the first time gather input from everyone. As some of you may know, i own the audio research reference 6 and the audio research GS150 amp and sonus faber IL Cremonese speakers, aurender n100h streamer and gamut cd3 reference cd player.
So far i find it good sounding (amp has 50 hours or so, preamp has about 490 hours). That said, as i said above, i have the opportunity to purchase a bel canto black system and trade in my audio research set up.
My questions to you all are these:

1. Would you make the switch from the audio research above and go into the bel canto black system? if so, why?
2. Do you think this switch will enhance my listening experience? how so?
3. Is this a mistake in terms of sound quality? Please elaborate with this question.


I am very curious as to how many of you follow my thread and answers to these questions will certainly help me make a decision. You are now in the drivers seat and can either make me move into the bel canto black system or push me away from doing so.
I look forward to your responses guys !
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jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
fsonicsmith:  i appreciate your feedback an reasoning. You are correct, i did state that class d is the fastest to depreciate followed by tubed gear. That said, although we all know the black system is 50k, my cost would be far less than that. I would be buying "just right" if i were to make this move. 
I had thought about the black system many months ago and did not pursue it, but i did have the chance to bring home the black integrated and i thought it was incredible and THE BEST BASS I HAVE EVER HEARD IN MY LIFE BY FAR!!. 
One thing we all need to remember about tubed gear; The value with tube gear is less and less due to the fact that many people try to negotiate you on the price based on the hours you have on the tubes. This creates a hard position for most people because buyers will always pull out the " oh i gotta buy tubes for all this pretty soon which will cost me x amount of dollars etc" so then you have to begin to adjust your price accordingly. In short, tubes and class d gear do not have the same "appeal" for many reasons:
1. tubes have a cost of ownership associated with it
2. Class d technology changes all the time

David: Interesting feedback as well. That said, you are also only giving your input based on what you have heard which i totally understand. As i mentioned above, i heard the black bel canto integrated and it was incredible and my connection said the black system will stump all over the integrated and that it is a whole new animal. 
Some of the reviews absolutely praise the black system. They claim there is no other class d system that sounds like it and let's not forget this system has been out since 2014 and it is still a current model. Belcanto states that they have no plans to change it because they can't find a way to make it better. 

I appreciate all of your responses though and you have given things to think about!  Keep the feedback coming!
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jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
i have been trying to hear one of those, but unfortunately they are scarce and not show up often. 
For now, I am going back and forth between my audio research gear and the belcanto system. 
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jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
One additional curve ball to all of you, I also have access to a pair of jeff rowland 925 monos...  What is the feeling about these when compared to audio research? vs belcanto black? 
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jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
thanks Guido. I will keep that in the back of my mind. 
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jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Hi guys,
so after doing a bit of research and deliberation as to what my next move will be, I decided to no pursue the belcanto black system at this time. I decided to give another pass Labs a shot with my sonus fabers. As you know, I really like pass Labs but felt the x350.8 was not the right match for my speakers so I decided to pursue pure class a power this time around and purchased a pair of pass labs xa200.5 monos along with the matching pass labs preamp. As many of you know, this is supposed to be one amazing pair of monos with tons of power and class a power on tap. Having owned the xs150s, im clear as to what the pass labs xs sound like so it will be very interesting to try the xa200.5s which have even more class a than the xs150s. Yes, pass labs is coming back again so I’m really looking forward to seeing how a full pass Labs set up is going to do against the audio research. Remember, pass labs class a is "supposed " to sound like tubes without tubes so I will be really testing that claim in about a week when I have an all class a vs tubes shoot out. Stay tuned!
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