WC,
"oh that is a great price, let me ask the wife"
I agree with everything else you mentioned in that post, but for me, when it comes to big monetary decisions, my wife and I always decide on that together. I guess you would label that as stupidity, but it's standard procedure at my home.
Dave
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WC,
Understood - that's a good clarification. I can definitely understand your position there. Sometimes there's a genuine intent to buy something, but it doesn't work out. However, when someone uses that as an excuse to bail on a purchase - especially if it was already agreed on - it is pathetic.
Dave
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techno__dude
Have you heard the xs300’s vs. the amps that you mentioned? Or, are you just speculating on the build quality?
At the end of the day, at least for me, it’s how the end product performs - especially compared to other brands likes the ones you mentioned, and also compared to other models like the ones WC mentioned.
That’s why I’m here - to enjoy hearing WC’s take on this equipment via his experiences, especially the comparisons.
Why are you here?
Dave
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WC,
Thanks for the audio comparison video. So happy that you are enjoying the sonics from these two awesome sounding amplifiers.
I’ve found that I’m not a fan of the Nordost sonic signature, because I don’t like a drier sound - especially in the mids and highs. Basically it seems to clamp down a bit too much in those areas, and I prefer a little more liquidity. However, I do realize that Nordost cabling can make things sound clearer and faster, which might be more desirable.
I seem to hear that Nordost is in the chain in the video (I have no doubt that the sound overall is much better in person), which does affect the sound from the amps. My guess is that the Xs amps are a little bit tighter sounding overall than the Dags, so the Nordost effect is more pronounced with those amps. To me, the Xs amps sound like they would probably be my choice - they sound like they do some things better - however, I would probably use different cabling - just my taste.
Excited to continue this journey with you.
Dave
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rsf507,
I agree - for me it's not as musical, but I understand that for others, musical is exactly what the Nordost does for them. In previous listening with Nordost, the tighter sound seems to benefit and bring out drums. Again, just me. Back to the journey :-)
Dave
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Always fun to do an XLR comparison and would make another great video. If you have Odin PC's and SC's in the chain, then there might be some synergy with the Odin 1 XLR.
Dave
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WC,
Nice setup - for both music and home theater! What cables do you use with your HT setup?
Dave
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I guess I'm on the soul train too. The Merrills sounded very exciting and I can see why many would prefer them. However, as good as they were in both the lower and upper frequencies, I still feel like it's missing that something - soul I guess. Today's Class D sounds to me a little like the way I used to use my equalizer in my teens, with a bit of the u-shape (bringing up the bass and treble). That's part of what makes the sound very attractive for me. On some things though, I miss that extra something - that soul.
Dave
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kren0006,
True about stereotyping, and I would agree about listening to each amp and give it the chance it deserves. On the other hand, I don’t think it’s an issue to identify a trend, based upon items that have been heard. However, for items that have not been heard - it’s not fair to lump them before hearing them.
For my comment about class D, perhaps I could have framed it better, mentioning the class D I have heard recently, rather than being absolute about class D.
Dave
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No matter how many comparisons are done, there will still be folks who
are not satisfied. No matter how much better you try to make the
testing, there will still be folks who are not satisfied.
I love the way WC is doing videos and inviting us to his journey. No, it's not going to be everyone's way of doing things - that's the point - it's his way, and we're along for the ride.
Yes, I suppose that doing more comparisons = more videos = more views = more money. But, it's also more time, and I'm sure WC needs to have a balance with his time as well.
Dave
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techno__dude,
So, I was actually wondering if we would hear about the M3 as well and what was happening with the M3. But, we’re human, we change our mind, we make decisions daily, and sometimes they don’t go the way we thought originally. It’s not lying - it’s just part of the journey, part of the many decisions that WC has to make for himself. He needs to do what he wants to do, no what we want him to do.
Look at it this way, if WC was just in it to build up equipment and then sell it for himself or for a dealer, then why didn’t he spend the time to post/video and build up the M3? What’s so suspicious here?
The problem is that you think this thread is about you and/or the rest of us, and you feel the obligation to report any misdeeds. The truth is, this thread isn’t about you or us, it’s about WC and his journey for trying out equipment - simple as that.
True - he does not necessarily want to hold onto something long term.
True - he wants to buy equipment for the lowest possible price.
True - he probably wants to sell it for the highest possible price.
True - he is working with dealers at times to get this equipment.
True - he will probably tell us he’s going to do something and then change his mind and not do it. That’s his perogative - it’s his journey.
For those of us who are here, we understand the above truths, and we choose to be here.
Dave
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WC,
I like the idea of a shootout as you mentioned, without knowing which one is which (until revealed later - maybe a separate video or later in the same video). No matter what you do, there will be folks who will find fault with the test. You won’t be able to satisfy everyone, because there are so many variables, including the room, the speakers, electronics, etc, let alone the recording device. Another variable is the device that folks use to listen to it.
I would recommend that you do the shootout and then provide your opinion on what you are hearing and the differences you are hearing. After all, that’s why we’re here - to hear your opinion and the way that you are able to articulate the sonics and the results of the combinations of equipment and cabling. That will end up being more important and what I come here for - rather than a good recording device. I have no doubt that a better recording device will be better than an iphone, but it still won’t compare to what you are able to share.
Dave
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WC,
Great question. Part of me thinks it should be stock cords for a shootout, if you don't have cords from each brand that you are comparing. On the other hand, better power cords might allow you to better differentiate the two brands, but then it would also introduce the sonic characteristics of the cord. Best case would be to have decent PC's that are as close to neutral as possible.
Dave
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ricevs,
This thread is WC's journey - his way. Just a suggestion - perhaps you should look to other forum threads that might better fit what you want, because this thread does not seem like a good fit for you.
Dave
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I think it would be interesting if you were to get a Soulution product to try at this point - especially since you have the Focal's. However, I suspect the buying/selling of those products might not work out.
Dave
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I understand what you’re trying to say/do, but I don’t think it’s a good analogy - sorry - but I do get the gist of it. Speculation is an absolute part of forum threads - especially when based upon logic and reasoning (which is what viber6 is going for) - and, of course, I think most folks realize that it’s just speculation and that’s why there’s so many suggestions for WC to try this and that.
The reward (at least for me) are the videos where WC shares what he is actually hearing, as well as his reviews.
Dave
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On the first song, the tweeters in seemed more immediate and focused and the tweeters out more diffused. For that song, I might choose the tweeters in. For the second song, no question, tweeters out sounded so much better.
Overall, vocals like the first and third song sound better with tweeters in, and drums on the second song sound better with tweeters out.
Dave
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Yes, kren, back to WC testing :-) Looking forward to today's video.
Dave
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kren0006,
You take it as shilling - it didn't hit me that way at all. Just voicing my opinion here as you generously have for a while now. I'm sure WC can handle his own thread and deal with folks as needed.
For fun though, let's say it is shilling. If so, the other side of it is to realize that any company that touts their product on this thread is taking a risk. And, I don't mean taking a risk of getting comments from you and riaa for being a shill. What I mean is that this is a thread where the owner of the thread is not your standard reviewer and is willing to call it as it is. I'm betting there are manufacturers that might even be a little bit afraid of this thread and what WC might say about their products, because WC's opinion might affect their sales. It's pretty bold for anyone to come to this thread and tout their product. So, I say, if WC is not objecting, then let them be and let them take the risk. If WC objects, I'm sure he'll address it either directly (PM) or on this thread.
Dave
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I agree with ricevs - hoping you will review the amps before you sell them.
Dave
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No Soulution? I wonder how those amps will compare with the Pass Labs Xs300's? Most likely less heat, but I'm curious about sonics.
Dave
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WC,
On my first listen, I really liked #1 as it was playing and didn't like #2 when it first started. However, as #2 went along, I think I might like #2 better. I'll need to listen again and in a better environment, but that's my first pass on the video.
Dave
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I suppose it does seem like it's getting to you WC - e.g. one of your most recent posts, where you go off about folks not watching the video. Wonder how that impacts any newcomers to the thread? And for folks who prefer forums over videos - it's probably not great for them either. Anyway, I'm glad I read your thread AND watch your videos :-)
I do understand, it's a lot of money for that Mephisto, so it's probably a bit frustrating at the moment.
Dave
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Look at you go WC! I have to admit, I like it when you're very pissed off :-)
Dave
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I agree as well WC about the new component experience.
I also agree that the Merrill 118 + Ref6 + Alexia 2 is an example of great synergy and sounds really good. The Merrill 118 definitely sounds different than when you first fired it up - again, a testament to a new component experience and finding the right ancillary components. I wasn't as much of a fan originally, but now I do really like the sound of the 118 - thanks to your efforts for sure.
Dave
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"As far as boulder, i heard that their new stuff is nothing like their new models."
???
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My guess is that the Mephisto just needs to break in and will likely calm down a bit. Just needs some time I think.
Dave
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Thanks dep14! Good suggestion, even if break in is not needed - I have it playing on my system right now.
Dave
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The XD stuff inverts phase? I haven't experienced that with my Theater 7...
Dave
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Good find on that second song - a nice rendition of John Denver's Perhaps Love. Sounds good!
Dave
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viber6,
Or, you could say that it is one of the best examples of an overpriced product line :-)
I agree - would be interesting for WC to share the comparison of the Essence with the MBL at the store there.
Dave
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ron17,
Wow - not asking for much! :-)
Actually, WC can do most of the comparisons at the store and share the video, as he did with some of the other components. It’s not the same as doing those comparisons in his room, but they would still be cool comparisons.
WC can comment, but I suspect his goal at the store was not comparisons, but to allow us to just hear some other components.
Dave
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WC,
I'd be curious to know what your thoughts would be, if you ever had the chance to compare the MBL with the Essence.
Regarding my other statement, I have no idea about MBL - never heard it. I was just letting viber6 know that he could say it a different (and possibly more proper way) - depending upon how he really feels about it.
Dave
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goodsource,
I agree that it would be interesting to pair Synergistic Research cabling with the Gryphon. WC often ends up doing comparisons of equipment that I would never hear anywhere else. So, I’m sure it’s a possibility that somewhere down the road WC might try out some Synergistic Research.
Dave |
WC,
I love this followup of your listening session and the pros/cons. It not only lets us know what you are hearing, but it also lets us know the vodka vs whiskey of your listening taste. Very helpful - thanks!
Dave
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WC, That's interesting about the room correction for the bass. This will be fun to hear what you think and for us to see and hear your videos. I'm thinking it should help with the blending of the bass section to the panel. Dave |
This just gets even better. There's now a bias now towards folks who are newer or mostly post in one thread? What does that have to do with anything? This personal stuff just continues...
Rather than taking posts with a grain of salt, it would be cool if you could take the post for what it says.
Dave
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The folks on this thread are certainly entertaining. Instead of just discussing equipment and keeping it to that, we keep getting back on the personal side and are now laying out some conspiracy theories for who this person really is. I kind of thought our speculation should be with equipment and/or listening tastes on this thread, but I guess not. At least viber6 keeps the discussion to equipment and listening preferences - I give him credit for that.
One more thought - this is a public forum, managed by Audiogon. If viber6 is so out of control that it’s bothering the OP to no end and everyone else too (and requests to tone it down are not working), then it should be very simple to contact a moderator with Audiogon and get something done. However, if the moderator finds that viber6 is within the rules and spirit of the forum, then he should be able to continue and the negative comments should stop. At that point, just scroll and don’t respond, if it’s not to your liking, but is approved by the Audiogon folks. This would be a better method of handling things, rather than posting and making personal jabs at the guy. Last I checked, I don’t believe bullying is in the spirit of the forum either.
Dave
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Interesting. Sounds OK. Perhaps the sound level is overdriving the microphone a bit or my headphones can't handle the bass :-)
Dave?
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I listened to a Harbeth speaker years ago - not sure what model - but I remember that having boxiness as well.
Dave
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viber6,
I appreciate your use of WC’s comments to arrive at logical conclusions. You have good intentions in your recommendations. However, just to make you aware of something that has been previously mentioned, you sometimes make statements that come across as commands.
"Move the whole speaker further away from all walls to decrease the congestion and mud. Toe in so the midpoint of the panel faces you, which will lessen some HF rolloff. "
Perhaps re-word these types of sentences so that they come across as suggestions, instead of commands. You’re smart, so I’m sure you can understand how this can appear to be commands, even though you don’t intend for them to be commands.
Dave
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WC,
I’m glad that you let us hear the ML first without room correction, so that we can later compare with rc. I suspect that rc will not only help with the bass frequencies, but it will seem to help with other frequencies as well. At that point, the ML can truly be compared with the Maggies or even the Wilsons. For me, at this point, I would prefer the Wilsons overall.
Dave
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WC - looking for ward to the videos you mentioned!
kren0006 - I agree with viber6, regarding the negativity. I hope we can keep this thread going. Yes, when I read your post, I absolutely interpreted it to be pointed at viber6, so I don't believe viber6 was being overly sensitive. That kind of thing just doesn't need to be said. I also agree with speedbump6, we all have different needs and likes.
Dave
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klh007,
Nice review and nice sound too.
Dave
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Trying to consider the questions (I definitely understand the importance of them), but I don't really know which one would have a larger fan base or garner more interest. Regarding one being easier than the other to work with, I would think the 20.7 to be easier. I also prefer the sound of the 20.7.
Overall though, for my interest, I would not keep either one. I think there's many other lower price speakers for consideration. I could be in the minority on this though.
Dave
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kren0006,
"I agree with WC, and stand by my statement that the myth Viber pushes - that due to clarity it is always better to use dac direct - is wrong. No offense to Viber, he is just wrong on this point."
Actually, WC agrees with viber6 regarding clarity - it’s mentioned in his first three points, with regards to the dcs Rossini with clock plugged in to the Mephisto:
1. Obscene amount of information
2. Every nuance and detail is served on a platter
3. Awesome low-volume level listening experience
So, for WC, clarity is important, but it’s not everything. That’s why WC has points 5-8.
For viber6, clarity is everything. Points 1-3 are exactly what viber6 has spoken about previously, and that’s what makes it better for him.
It’s just two differing opinions/preferences. No right or wrong.
Dave
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kren0006,
That is exactly the point. I’m paying attention, but you’re not getting it. From viber6’s point of view it is always better, and for him that is correct. He clearly states "For me..." in his post. He does also make the point that if it’s not what someone else (like WC) prefers, then a preamp will add the needed color to satisfy another person’s preferences.
Seems like you have this agenda to just make viber6 wrong for some reason?? Meanwhile, viber6 is being reasonable by qualifying things "For me..." and understanding that other folks might like other colors.
Dave
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With you 100% carey1110!!
That's why I mentioned that it seemed like an agenda about viber6.
Dave
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jetter,
I'd sure appreciate hearing your perspective on this, since you agree with kren0006. To me, viber6 has been fair in showing not only his absolute preference for clarity and for his opinion that DAC direct has more clarity than a preamp, but he's also acknowledged that others who have different preferences will appreciate a preamp.
Dave
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