Just wait until you hear my thoughts on Nordost on this next video...
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Showing 50 responses by jays_audio_lab
@klh007 thank you for the feedback above. I will try to go and listen to them next time shows become available. It has been quite an interesting comparison i must say between the logans and the Magnepan. They are both so different in many ways, but the reality is that it comes down to a few things:
Saying that one is garbage over the other is really a personal opinion from some of you. If the logan is "rolled off" as some claim it to be, well then guess what? this allows you to play far more music (good and bad) than the other speaker. I will try to articulate my thoughts above a bit more during a future video. For now, saying that "purity" is really all that matters (which i have heard from some of you here) is in my opinion incorrect. how so? well, tubes are not "pure sounding" so does that make tube gear garbage because they are rolled off or not pure enough? I personally do not think so. I have ZERO issues with tubes and i really enjoy the flavor they inject into the music. Some days i hate my solid state gear and wish i had tubes in the mix, but then i realize it is just the mood that i am in. Our mood weighs HEAVILY on how we listen and i believe i have spoken to some of you about the "mental game" associated with keeping equipment for far too long. What would this be? well, in a nutshell it has to do with our brain and ears getting used to the same type of sound over the long haul and then we end up enjoying things less and less. It is a fact that this occurs to us all. How can i prove this? very easily, stop listening to your system for 1-2 weeks and then go back to listening and watch how impressed you will be. Audio is no different when it comes to the feeling that you slowly begin to "get used" to the sound. I know some of you own 2 pairs of speakers for this reason. You never get bored because you can change the sound anytime you want. Do you have any idea how many people have told me they want to change their amp or preamp or speakers etc and i have asked "why?" and their answer was " i want to try something different". That is a perfect example of just boredom and the long term effects of owning the same components for too long. HOWEVER, this varies by individual so i will not say EVERYONE behaves this way, but most people do. |
All- i wanted to communicate to you all that i will no longer continue to post or update anything on this thread until there is a resolution put in place that addresses all the personal attacks i have been receiving from individuals who took it upon themselves to chase me, harass me day-in day-out and who came together to create a narrative that does not exist. I have been advised to not continue to engage with anyone who is constantly attacking me and to refrain from commenting on anything that is a direct hit at my character. At this time, i am taking a hiatus from this, but will continue to do what i have been doing on my other platform where i have full control of what is said about me and can block, delete or remove anything i feel is a personal hit against me in order to keep things running smoothly. Next month, it would have been the 4th year anniversary since i started this thread. Four years of sharing my story and journey with you all. However, i don’t have the time or energy to be fighting off the constant attacks because i do have other responsibilities that i have to prioritize in my life (job, daughter, wife, my health) Once again, THANK YOU to those of you who have had my back from day 1 and please do not hesitate to find my email and connect with me. Jay |
Ok, So now that we are all back on track and clear on what won't be tolerated anymore, here are a couple of thoughts on my current state on the 13a:
More to come! |
There is a certain element of truth to the fact that dacs are getting better and better and cheaper offerings are really making things quite difficult to choose a super expensive one over a cheaper one. I do not disagree with that statement in most cases, but as you go up the ladder with regards to the rest of your system, the differences will be more obvious. Please remember, a $5,000 powercord won’t make a receiver sound like separates. You have to be logical with your assessment of components. As far as to why i think having a preamp is almost "mandatory" with difficult loads is because i have personally experienced this. Take for instance my 20.7 Magnepans; They do not come to life until you give them volume so if you are expecting a WOW effect at low volume then you will sitting in your chair waiting and you will soon realize you gotta give it "gas" to make them wake up. I am not disagreeing that some of you guys are getting excellent results with using a Dac straight into your amps. I think that combo worked well for me as well when i owned other speakers and amps, but it wouldnt work with my current set up. Another speaker that was super power-hungry that i owned was the Dynaudio Confidence C4 Platinum. Those swallowed juice and i also suspect that a dac would work as a preamp UP UNTIL a certain volume level, but once you go above that threshold , the presentation gets too in your face and it comes more at you without opening up. When you push the gas pedal on the dac, the sound becomes a little too in your face (in most cases, not all) and it does not open up. When you introduce a well-designed linestage and you give it gas, the sound opens up from top to bottom, side to side, the control is far greater and the presentation does not have this sense of "directionality" that you get with a dac as a preamp. @kren: i ran the room correction and shot a video today of the logans with room correction engaged. You all saw the before and after graph i posted so we shall see what you guys think. I do not want to give an opinion just yet because i want to give you all the chance to listen first and let an adult debate take place. Makes sense? |
Hi guys, I would like to articulate things a bit further here in regards to using a dac as a preamp:
I can understand why some people prefer a dac direct into their amps, but it would be interesting to know their speakers, room size, and volume levels they listen at. I PERSONALLY have always found brightness when cranking up dacs too much. They become a bit "fatiguing" over long listening sessions at moderate to loud volume levels. They have a volume "sweet spot" that you need to stay within or else they become a bit too much. |
Yes I agree but the power of the amp is completely driven by your preamp. Even if you have 2,000 watts of power for a magnepan, you will tax the volume of the dac far earlier than you will with a preamp in the mix. The preamp can use that power of the amp and manage it better than most dacs can in this specific scenario. Let's not forget about the brightness induced after a certain volume level with a dac being used as a preamp. |
It was not necessary to clarify the shortfalls i detected with Class D. I just don’t think there is a Class D amp that can bring a REAL BATTLE to the Mephisto Solos. These amps have bested anything else i have owned, but as i mentioned on my video, these are not amps for systems that are incomplete. You dont fly one of these planes on the video below being out of shape right? It is understood that when you get behind one of these planes you are in top shape and the expectation is the same with the Mephisto and what it will ask from YOU and the rest of your system. It is a fighter jet that isn’t there for you to play with. Put your helmet and suit on, get in the cockpit and stay alert.
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Well, I just finished recording a third video which will address all these questions above... One was with the dcs straight into the mephisto and the other one was with the preamp in the mix. This will answer many questions. I have a video scheduled for tomorrow around 12pm Eastern which will show you how the martin logan 13a sound with room correction applied and the second video with the preamp in the mix will be released onTuesday night. That will make it 4 videos with the martin logan 13a. I plan to do 4 or Maybe 5 videos total with them and then we will circle back to the Alexia 2 and let’s see what happens :) Before I forget, there is a huge system upgrade arriving Monday night. 108 lbs of speed, slam, tremendous control AND precision is what I have been told. Will it live up to the expectation? Will it be the best preamp I have ever owned? Can it dethrone the Gryphon Pandora? Stay tuned to find out :) Finally, I plan to put together an "affordable" system here and compare against an "expensive" system in order to hear what you get with more money or maybe what you don’t get? Here is what I am doing: System A Martin Logan/Magnepan Parasound JC1+ monos Dragon PCs on parasound Merrill audio preamp Dcs dac with clock Gryphon VIP Series Speaker cables Cardas clear beyond xlr VERSUS System B: Gryphon Mephisto Gryphon Pandora/Secret preamp Dragon Pc on mephisto Wilson Audio alexia 2 Secret speaker cables Dcs Rossini with clock Dragon pc on dac Gryphon VIP Series xlr |
Hi guys, Look, as I explained above, there are circumstance where the dac can be used as a preamp and I think I even made a post about this like a month ago. What I simply wanted to say is that dac into preamp is not the solution for every single situation. Personally, with my gear, it is too bright with the mephisto and to some extent it was the same with the momentum s250. Also, with the magnepan it simply NEVER came close to what the audio research ref6se linestage did. You all can watch that video where I used the Merrill element 118s plus ref6 and yoi all were blown away by it. Then why didn’t that happen when using the dac direct? Because as I mentioned, many times, synergy is key when doing this. This synergy hasn’t existed for me with the countless set ups I have put together and I’ve used the dac as a preamp. That said, in my opinion, based on my own trials, no dac has ever bested what the momentum hd Preamp did. However, I understand having a preamp that expensive isn’t for everyone and If your budget is 8k for a preamp for instance, I can understand why a good dac might be the better way to go. There is nothing wrong with both approaches but to say that dac direct is king and the way to go is not accurate. That is the myth. I have filmed two presentations which are with preamp and without preamp while the rest remained the same. I am also not using a crazy expensive Preamp either and you will hear how different both sound. |
So in conclusion, dac direct IS NOT the way to go all the time ESPECIALLY when you are using amps of the caliber of the mephisto. The mephisto thins out, soundstage colapses somewhat the control isn’t there. I suspect this would be the same effect if you were using the monster boulder amps. Some amps need a true "race car" driver behind the wheel. You can however get away with it by using a dac, but until you strap a well designed linestage into the mix,you really wouldn’t know. If DAC direct yielded the best results for me, hell I wouldn’t be burning money on preamps. I’d be done with them. If your top 2 priorities are detail and resolution and you don’t exactly have a big room to fill nor do you crank things up too much, yes a dac would do the job. That said, doing the job and doing it RIGHT are two different things. Believe me, when the dcs vivaldi left and I used the Rossini as a preamp, I couldn’t believe the difference. As a preamp, the Rossini gets the job done but that’s it. The Vivaldi was another level in terms of preamplification. It certainly gave a ton of Preamps I’ve owned a run for the money but I didn’t get to test it against my Momentum HD. Video drops today at 2pm.ET Give me your impressions please. |
I am going to be brutally honest here: my dcs Rossini with clock accomplishes the following when plugged into the Gryphon Mephisto:
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@cleeds My intention is to present with facts and actual ownership of components doing my own trials. I do not know what else to do other than what you see me do here and on youtube. It is a FACT for ME, based on my own trials with my own equipment that a dac direct into an amp mated to a speaker so inefficient such as the 20.7 has NO BALLS to really drive the amp and tell it to wake up the speaker. It feels as if the sound becomes more one dimensional and does not open up top to bottom, left to right just like @carey1110 mentioned above. He also owns Alexia 2s just like i do and has the DCS Rossini and he is essentially echoing what i have been saying based on his own trials. He also feels the preamp adds more body, more of a submersed feeling to the presentation. Lastly, and i hate to give it away TODAY, but i will do it. Do you know WHY the logans sound "not so impressive" when it comes to bass? because i have been using the Mephisto with the dac direct. Just WAIT until you hear the presentation with the Merrill Audio in the mix... You will hear the tonality of the bass change drastically. Yes, i have owned 3 pairs of logans and YES the bass sound signature of the logans also changes even though they have internal class d amps running them. I had a long lengthy conversation about this phenomenon with Martin Logan last year and they confirmed that their speakers also display the characteristics of the amplifier driving the speaker EVEN through their own built in amplifiers. You will hear first hand, soon enough, how NOT SO GOOD the Rossini is when it comes to bass control with the Mephisto. It feels as if the Mephisto is being driven by a 13 year old. It can’t control the the amplifier’s massive power reserves, it can’t inject the necessary juice to open up the sound of the mephisto and it sounds bright after 30 mins of listening. |
It’s what you like best and what works best for your application. Hearing the Merrill Audio preamp back in the mix last night really woke me up again. I have been using the dac straight into the mephisto and I just couldn’t connect with the music. I didn’t want to sit and listen for long periods of time. I almost just wanted to film video for you all so I have something to present and then shut the music off and watch a movie. I’m actually SHOCKED now that I think about this. I’ve listened to the mephisto maybe 4 times in the last 10 days? That’s abnormal for me and I realize it is because of: -The Alexias haven’t been used -Dac has been connected into amp -ML 13a arrived and I had to do room correction etc. As good as the 20.7 and 13a are given their price points, it is a TOUGH ACT TO FOLLOW for many speakers when you have been used to listening to an Alexia 2 or a speaker of that caliber. You almost want to not listen to anything at all if it’s not what you are used to. Granted, earlier throughout my journey when I had not owned the Alexias and Neoliths of the world etc I didn’t really know any better. I couldn’t miss anything I hadn’t heard or owned. I’ve been fooling around more with my jvc nx7 projector and a sony 295es projector I bought last week than actually listening to my rig. I feel disconnected with a dac direct AT LEAST with my current system. It is as if I push play on the dac and then my brain asks me "what time does the music start to play?" |
ok, so i will quote you: "if a new component comes up for trial, if it does not increse clarity, i am not interested". This statement summarizes (finally) that your main objective is clarity which is fine. That is your system. When it comes to me, i seek (in no particular order) -speed -slam -dynamics -soundstage width and depth (must have for me) -3d imaging (must have for me) -resolution -clarity -long listening sessions at ALMOST any listening level -sense of space -air |
I plan to keep 2 separate systems at all times in my room where i can control the variables. That said, i probably need to eliminate either the magnepan or the 13a because i am running out of room unfortunately and too much inside the room certainly interacts with the speakers being used. i can not keep 3 sets of speakers so yes, i am trying to decide which should be the speaker to go. Questions i am asking myself: - Should i keep the logans since i can fine tune the bass and it does not lack bass like the magnepan? -Do i want to keep the magnepan even though i won’t be adding subs (i dont want to get into all that mess) so that bass will always be lacking with music? Well boys, my new preamp is out for delivery today. I am quite nervous to be honest because this will be the first stab (after the Momentum’s HD departure) at using a serious preamp again and as you know, synergy is really the name of the game at this level and i do not know how this new preamp will interact with the Mephisto. I will post a quick video tonight revealing what this beast is. Stay tuned for that ! |
As mentioned before, it is system-dependent. We also forget the rest of the system: Subject A you have (hypothetical) a pair of focal sopra 2 and you do a dac as a preamp, i do not see a reason why that would not work and provide satisfying results using a decent dac as preamp Subject B You have Focal Stella Evo and are using the same dac as subject above into your preamp. Any idea how much difference you will hear with both set ups? Subject A will get a good presentation that will satisfy his needs while Subject B will be underwhelmed because a speaker of the caliber of the Focal Stella Evo WILL tell you: " i can give you a better soundstage than this, better bass than this, more impact, i can fill your bedroom with sound even though i am sitting in your living room, but this dac wont allow me to so i am giving you just facts". See, that is something that unfortunately MOST people won’t have the chance to hear for themselves because you almost (again, almost) have to own multiple speaker of different tier groups to understand this phenomenon due to the fact that you can switch them out in your room. You can hear this quite easily in your room where YOU can control the variables. Last night i was listening to the 13a and i was quite amazed how much better things got after adding the preamp. i actually sat and listened for about an hour straight. I then brought out the Alexia 2s after a 2 week hiatus and positioned them. I was SUPPOSED to be like "omg" this is ridiculously better and guess what? that is not totally true. I gained more clarity but i could hear the imperfections of the recordings, the soundstage was good, but it did not blow me away as i remembered it before. As a matter of fact, and to be transparent here, i felt like the alexia 2s only sounded "decent" and i heard crickets in my head. That said, my brain immediately went to these thoughts: -Speakers need time to settle in the system after not being used for some time, drivers are cold,etc (fact) -You are using a Merrill Preamp - When Alexia 2 blew you away, you were using Momentum HD -Is the Alexia 2 so revealing that i am hearing my weak links which were not so apparent with the logans? - Why is the bass giving me a headache? is it time to continue to move the Alexias a little more into the room to balance out the bass better? These were REAL questions i had last night after not listening to these speakers for 2 weeks and i came to the conclusion that i need to keep working on the Alexia’s placement AND yes this answered my question once again that as you go up the ladder, good sounding components with more affordable speakers often times WILL NOT MAKE THE CUT with better, more resolved speakers. More resolved speakers won't tolerate subpar supporting cast. A person using a focal sopra 2 (again, this is a random example) does not know WHAT a Wilson Alexia 2 can do in terms of scale, soundstage, depth, height and width, etc so they do not have a way of comparing how good or bad things sound. We can also look at it like this: I can bring my DCS Rossini to your system which consists of a pair of KEF Ls50 bookshelf speakers with a PS Audio Dac and you might be like "WOW i can not believe how close they sound!!!" yes, you are right, you can't tell much of a difference in your system, but how about doing this on a more revealing system? You would be able to hear how a Chord Dave is not really at the level of a DCS Rossini. |
Viber, You are using glasses as an analogy, but if i go back to car analogies, they are dismissed.... I can put it to you like this: You built a 1500 hp Dodge Viper where you accelerate hard and it spins tires constantly. You spin tires at 100mph at wide open throttle. Then, as you keep getting used to it and driving the car, you realize the clutch is beginning to slip and the rear differential is making clunking noises. You later find out, you are not a good driver because you let your buddy borrow your car to make a 1/4 mile pass and he drove the car faster than you do. He is a better driver than you. What to do? hmmm... well, you built a monster engine and forgot about the rest of your car including your driving skills? My point is, you build a 1500 hp car and you drive it daily to go to work and smash the gas pedal here and there and it is getting the job done of taking you to work and the grocery store, but are you really maximizing its performance if you have lame driving skills? Getting the job done "ok" is usually what a dac does in most (not all) set ups, but maximizing the performance of ultra high end systems almost always ends up with a great preamp in the mix. Hell, go to the shows and you will see the best rooms always use a preamp. I am of the mentality that if i am building an engine, i am going to try to maximize every aspect of the car to capitalize on the large dump of money i have put into the engine. I am going to want to drag race or road race the car here and there. I am not building a 1500hp to be a garage queen or to drive to my local grocery store. I chase maximum results through trial and error. |
One last point i want to make, which is valid, Viber, HOW WOULD YOU KNOW if using a dac direct is superior to using a world class preamp? I have done the trials with dacs (many dacs) straight into amps, but have you done a trial with a preamp of the level of a momentum hd ? It is kinda hard to have a debate if you are "blind-folded" to the experiences that the other person is trying to present because you haven't been there in exactly the same shoes as his. I can say i have replicated what you claim in regards to dacs using EXCELLENT DACS (not best buy streamers), but what world class preamp have you owned to replicate what i have done? maybe you have done it and i might have missed it. Let us know. |
Remember viber, we all have opinions and they are all welcomed here. I actually love this debate we have going on about dac and preamps. This is EXCELLENT and it really makes people see different points of views on both sides of the fence. That said, it is kinda hard for me to tell the 1500 hp dodge viper owner how to drive it or build his car when i really have never driven one? i have basic knowledge of twin turbos, engines, the need for better transmissions, good tires and overall common sense with regards to cars just like the common sense most people seem to have about understanding that the less components are used in the system (aka no preamp) the better it will be because you are removing an extra circuit. However, theory, hypothesis, are simply that. We do not know what facts are until everything is put into practice. You can read books on how to perform surgery, do a heart transplant and what not, but until you get behind the scapula and begin to perform one, you won’t know if you are capable of performing a successful surgery. You just read HOW TO, but it does not mean you have done it successfully. |
Speaking of prescription glasses: About 2 months ago i started to get crazy pain on my left and and on my forehead. I have never ever suffered from migraines or headaches in my life. I went to the Ophthalmologist a month ago and they ran all sorts of tests on my eyes and said my left eye was dry and had elevated eye pressure. They gave me prescription glasses with a blue filter. He said that he thinks this is due to the fact that i am behind a computer, phone or television for too long. The pandemic is making many of us use digital devices all day long since we are home and that has an effect called "digital migraines". I also think the LED lights i have in my room are not good for me because i catch myself squinting without even realizing it. This also made me nauseous and/or dizzy at times. I think i got it under control, but i suspect this whole pandemic and working from home under LED lights all day, looking at my phone to respond to messages, watching youtube, Netflix, etc, etc has not helped me over the last 3 months. Stress is also another huge factor, alcohol (you all know i love my vodka and tequila here and there) are also not good for this. If i get irritated about something, it is as if someone just punched me on my left eye and i slowly start to feel the throb or pain little by little. Man i am getting older !! it sucks!! |
I just wanted to comment on the above: I hold zero grudges against anyone. Greyhound and I messaged each other privately and I believe we put things to rest. I listened to his points and he heard mine. I want you all to know that I don’t hold any sort of hate/grudge against anyone here even if we have had exchanges that might have gone over the top. If we can sit back down, understand each others views, bury the hatchet, I am the first one willing to extend my hand and shake yours. I just don’t like to fix things and then we go back to the same behavior a few weeks later. (hell I have my wife for that already lol). I want us all to just be grown ups, listen to each others points and then chime in respectfully. I also think that it is important to NOT IMPOSE your views on anyone. You present your facts, I take notes on your findings, I do a little research on what was said and then decide if I might want to explore that option. I know each and everyone of you here work your asses off day in day out to be able to afford the rig that you have put together. I also feel that I need to be a better "manager" of the conversations and take notice of those of you who have more of a simplistic approach to audio. Part of the reason why I want to build two systems is to be able to cater to those who own more "affordable" gear and those who own the higher end components. I will never belittle what you own and If I have ever EVER done that, I am publicly apologizing. Lastly, I wish some of you lived closer to me so we can play with your components in here too. It really REALLY does suck to live in South Florida. I envy those of you who live in NY, TX, CA or states with big audio communities. Florida is a vacation state. Very little interest in high end here at least south of Tampa. |
Here we go: Here's today video: https://youtu.be/5BFWLfzUHhs Christine preamp is now in the mix. Please listen to this video and the previous video without the preamp. Let me know your thoughts |
Ok so the time has come to sell one of the 2 speakers. I can’t keep all 3 pairs and the Wilson Alexia 2 aren’t going anywhere for now. This will be the first time that I will be asking YOU, my followers, which speaker I should sell: 20.7 13a I need to keep the best speaker out of the two in order to build a cheaper system around it. Here are things to consider when making your recommendation: Is it the speaker with the largest fan base? Will people lose interest in my channel by me selling this one over the other? Will it be easier to work with this speaker? How did you arrive at your recommendation? I’d appreciate your input in order for me to form an educated decision. Please note: at the end I will be the one making the final decision. I just want you guys’ input to help me think. |
A couple of updates for this week: -Critical Mass stand for Mephisto arrives this Thursday -Pandora Preamp is supposed to ship to me today -New speaker cables arrive today -Second preamp will hopefully be delivered this week -Audioquest Dragon source powercord for the dac comes next week I have high expectations for the Mephisto once everything arrives. I am not sure if i am going to be spending anymore money on it after buying what i just outined above if it does not exceed my expectations. My brain says "yes it will deliver and blow away my expectations" but my gut says "i am nervous because if it doesn’t slam the door shut then where do we go from here ?" Quite frankly, and again, to be honest with you guys in order to show TRANSPARENCY that does not benefit me by being very vocal with what i am about to say: The Mephisto is indeed the devil and it does require effort on your part. This is like an Arabian horse (google it) which is the most expensive horse in the world and i am sure those who own it do not feed it garbage food or water. I am sure that kind of animal has top veterinary care, top caregivers, top food, etc. This is what i feel the Mephisto is. No skimping anywhere on your rig. I welcome the challenge, but those of you who do not have patience or resources will fall flat on your faces. In addition to the above, i also believe the Alexia 2 is another animal that is showing me the character of everything upstream. Mephisto & Alexia 2 are no joke when it comes to revealing and distinguishing between a good, bad, and outstanding component. They tell you the truth, but that pisses you off because maybe you were not looking to change something else on your rig. I actually wanted to also share something else which was my personal comparison of the Sony 295es and JVC NX7 4k projectors which i have here. In case you dont know, the similar situation is happening with those. The sony 295es is Sony’s most affordable 4k projector ($5k msrp) and the JVC nx7 is 9k msrp. They are 2 different tier groups and the JVC has better parts, glass lens, better black colors etc, BUT when you watch streaming content such as the APPLE TV even in 4k, the jvc is good, but the cheaper sony seems better to me, more pleasant and it hides the imperfections of the streaming content much better, but as soon as you put a real 4k bluray disc, the jvc easily hands the sony a knockout punch. In short, remember what i have been saying, the more you go up the ladder, the more demand is placed on the rest of your set up. I am 200% sure of this. Keep that in mind when making your next purchase. |
A lot of talk about tekton speakers here but why don’t I see a massive amount of owners posting here ? If the product is amazing ( I don’t know and can’t speak about it) why aren’t you all buying it ? I mean if you praise it then how come it hasn’t made it to your room.? That has always been a big question in my head... Once again, I have not heard it or owned it so I'm neutral but I'm asking those who really rave about it and don't have it at home ? |
Anything is possible at Jay’s audio lab...I could shock you at any moment.... Wilson Wamm Rockport Lyra Focal grande Utopia Momentum relentless Tekton Mágico m6 It’s all about timing and being ready... I wait patiently and prepare financially to bring home and compare what you can only hear at shows. I am aiming to build two systems and do things that most people simply can’t do or choose not to do. Stay tuned...let’s keep pushing forward. |
@kren: yes i feel the 20.7 is better for me at this time. Having my room to do as i wish helps me tremendously. @thezaks: Too much of anything is never good. If you go dac direct, OFTEN TIMES you get more detail but with added brightness and if you use a linestage then you will lose minute things and nuances , but you "cleanse" the digital feeling of the dac. Here is a perfect way of putting it: When you use a dac direct, think of it as washing your car and drying it. You are now able to clearly see the imperfections of the paint (slight scratches, dings, etc) and when adding the linestage you pretty much washed your car and then applied wax to the paint in order to make it shine better and hide some of these paint imperfections (in this case the digital feeling, the added brightness, the thinness, etc) THIS IS THE BEST analogy i can think of. |
The reason why (i did this test MANY TIMES with 2 separate sets of Constellation monos and their preamp) i think it is no good is because the sound diminishes, the volume is drastically lower and i felt it thinned out. Trust me, i was excited to see what it did, but it did nothing. Go back to one of my videos where i talked about it. |
hello everyone, well i have done more thinking over the past few days in regards to which speaker to sell between the Martin Logan 13a & Magnepan 20.7. This decision was not easy for me because both speakers do things that the other does not. It also appears that on my channel the Martin Logan has more views than the Magnepan does which i guess goes to show that the Martin Logan following is a bigger one. That said, and i as i articulated earlier, i can not keep both speakers due to the limited space available (my room is 16x22) so at this time, and it pains me to do it, but i have made the decision to sell the 13a. Why? Here are a couple of reasons why i am keeping the 20.7:
Anyhow, there you have it. I will be listing my Martin Logan 13a later today. Stay tuned, i will be dropping a video later today about a few updates including a personal opinion on a particular subject matter. |