WC, to add to my points about Wireworld or any other product, if something de-emphasizes the highs, you will hear more midrange and lower freq take prominence. This can cause delight if you are listening to a midrange dominant instrument like a soft trumpet or voice, but further listening reveals that HF harmonics are reduced, so the total sound of the instrument or the voice is missing these upper harmonics and thus a lot of information. In my early days before knowing anything about audio equipment, I heard a custom system of a doctor mentor in school. He agreed with me that accurate reproduction of HF was important for the full appreciation of the total sound from the string bass. This is because the string bass has lots of HF from the gutsy scraping of the bow on the string or the plucking in jazz pieces. His system certainly demonstrated this.
|
techno_dude,
Thanks for your input on Shunyata. I love the Venom HC power amp cable, but have mixed feelings about the Sigma HC that I tried and listened to extensively. Compared to the Venom HC it had a laid back but interesting coherent personality. The boys at Music Direct at first said the Sigma was better in every way, as a good salesman would say about more expensive items, but later they admitted that they agreed with my description of the sound characteristics. At the price, I passed on it. The Sigma HC was tried from the wall to my Shunyata Denali, and also from the Denali to the power amp. But I am really enthusiastic about the Denali, which did wonders for everything I value, with absolutely no downside. This was obvious within seconds of first hearing. It is well worth the $4000 for the horizontal version. I use the Venom HC from the wall to the Denali, and from the Denali to the power amp. Have you compared the Venom digital power cables with the new delta series and the alpha? With many high priced cables, the sound is not necessarily better than the same companies' cheaper versions. Nordost is an example. Many scientists find the theories of design from these companies questionable, so it is up to the listener to decide. Find your own balance between and combining "objectivity" (which in itself may be subjective and questionable) and "subjectivity."
|
jafant, you are most welcome.
|
WC, thanks for relating your findings. Now try the Shunyata Denali conditioner to magnify the differences and of course, to reveal more of what you enjoy.
|
techno_dude,
Sure. With all my components plugged into my previous reference conditioner, the Isotek Evo 3 Sigmas, which was already better than a regular power strip plugged into the wall, the Denali was immediately clearer. Sorry I don't remember the exact sequence of my trials, but many combinations showed the obvious superiority of the Denali in the ways you know I prefer. My outlet is the original in my 1963 building. I know I should get the kind of good outlets and the dedicated circuit to the breaker panel you have. You can get the 60 day trial from Music Direct where I bought the Denali and 2 Venom HC power cords. I had trouble reliably hearing the minute differences between the Venom HC and the Sigma HC, but the Denali is such an obvious more gigantic improvement, akin to getting a much clearer sounding amp. That's why I justified spending $4k for it. The reviews admit the greatly increased clarity compared to the prior much more expensive conditioners of Shunyata. The designer is a former NASA engineer, well acquainted with the high standards of the military. Later, top cardiologists used his equipment to reveal sensitive information in heart monitors. He is a great materials scientist whose research continues to produce better products. Read his interviews.
|
WC, right on! I totally agree. When you have settled on your amps and other electronics, I do recommend the Shunyata Denali, as I described in my posts with techno_dude. The Denali is real value, unlike much of the cables out there. At least in my system, the Denali created such a large improvement, much greater than any cable.
|
I understand how thezaks liked the sound of the Cardas when he listened to that first. Although I enjoy the greater purity of the music and get closer to the music with the Odin, especially in the background instruments with their HF overtones, I believe that the system’s overall purity is due to bypassing the preamp. When the Ayre preamp is broken in enough, I hope you do a video with and without the Ayre. You could use the Cardas straight from the DCS into the amp, and get more purity than if you used Odins from the DCS into the Ayre, and then into the amp. For purity, there is nothing as important as bypassing the preamp, assuming for that particular music such as this one in your video, you have plenty of volume.
For those who want the dynamics and bloom that a preamp adds, I will ask you to think about comparing the purity and delicate taste of freshly picked corn to several days later. There is no contest, and everyone would agree that fresh brings out the max in range and delicacy of flavors. For ultimate listening pleasure, think of the purity of the music as you would think of the purity of the taste of fresh food.
|
grey9hound, Thanks for posting to me. Of all the people who disagree with my sound preferences, you have one of the best reasoned comments, so I feel you merit a serious response. Everyone has their sound preference, so they should tailor their system according to their values. In my case, I value the close up sound of my violin under my chin and that of fellow chamber music players sitting close together. This is a brilliant sound that has more HF content than the sound at the 15th row in a concert. The tonal qualities of violins vary tremendously, which is why violinists may have several violins with different string types and bows with different weight balances and wood stiffness to suit their tastes and styles of playing different music. My 1890 violin is on the bright side but with some mellow qualities compared to new violins. I agree with you that excessive HF content at loud levels is unacceptable, and it is also harmful because of hearing damage. My satisfying listening levels average 60-70 dB with peaks of 90 or so. At these levels, there is pleasure without any harm. The question of what is acceptable will vary among people whose tastes range the spectrum from laidback to very bright and brilliant. Suit yourself. My Rane ME 60 equalizer makes possible near infinite varieties. I often change my settings on the EQ to suit different recordings according to my taste. I feel that everyone should consider doing this, because otherwise the choices for your preferred tonal balance are limited to the choices made by the manufacturers of all your components. Hope this helps, and keep posting your thoughtful comments. |
WC,
I agree with everything you said about how any preamp is a step backwards for purity and your present system in a medium sized room. When you do the bypass test with/without the Ayre preamp, that will be the FINAL nail in the coffin for preamps. If you do a video on that, this will be educational for everyone.
As far as value for the money you will get by selling all your preamps, I would go for speakers. Maybe Mike Fremer's top Wilson, the Alexx I think, or the much cheaper GTA which is probably THE best value that excels at nearly everything you want. The rest of the DCS dac components are the icing on the cake, but the GTA is the best cake.
|
The guitar and voice recording on the video at 82 dB was a test mainly of mid bass, midrange and HF. I hope you keep using this recording for the upcoming tests which you outlined, since it was all impressive. For bass fullness and control, other recordings would be more useful.
Your recorded music is highly processed, and that amplified processed music in live performance is not a real reference. You don't like such live music, for good reason. Unamplified classical music provides a true reference for the reality of natural sound. I can recommend exciting short classical pieces you would instantly enjoy--the last part of the Rossini William Tell Overture (the Lone Ranger theme), the 1st movement of the Beethoven 5th Symphony, the last movement of the Beethoven Moonlight Piano Sonata (fast and many dynamic outbursts), etc.
|
The review posted on the Merrill Element 118 strikes me as a fairly honest portrayal of an amp that he believes is "accurate, revealing and natural." Put the last 3 words together and you have just about everything desirable, unless you deliberately want euphonic, colored sound. In the long run, detail with naturalness trumps euphonic flavoring as you realize that your flavoring has perhaps somewhat blurred the music and then you want to try another flavoring. My only reservation with the review is that he gives much of the criteria only 4.5 out of 5, so in that sense the review is somewhat lukewarm considering the price. We have seen many reviews where a product scores 5/5 for much less money. I now have 250 hours on my Mytek Brooklyn Amp for retail $2k, and so far it seems neutral, detailed and natural to deserve a 4.5/5 in most areas, so an amp with SOTA aspirations ought to be clearly 5/5 for $38k. Maybe this reviewer is trying to be polite and politically correct to not antagonize his contacts who like euphonic sound, so it could be a glowing review depending on your interpretation of his psychology.
I am sure Guido will be more informative in his hopefully upcoming review.
|
WC, my guess is that the Lux is more neutral/accurate compared to the ML 585, right? My listening has found ML to be on the sweet side, in general. Going way back to the ML 2 class A power amp, initially it was cold and sterile, but after only a short break in, it did a 180 and became syrupy sweet. The ML 6a preamp was really expensive at $6K in 1980, but it was syrupy sweet, a real letdown. I think the Soulution 700 series should be considered for its clarity and neutrality, although my dealer for the Soulution and the Mola Mola thought the latter beat the former for these qualities. Even though the Mola Mola has poor resale value, it retails for "only" $16K, compared to the far more expensive Soulutions and other big monos you are considering. I have written to Guido privately and encouraged him to more formally evaluate the Merrill Elements, which promise to be a game changer. The reviewer of the Element 118 uses the Pass 350.5 as his reference, which is far from SOTA. So Guido may have an opportunity to be much more informative, by comparing the Element to his SOTA Rowland 925.
|
WC, it was your early review of the ATI 6005 sounding nothing special at low volume that saved me from venturing into it. You deserve much thanks for just that. Something is wrong with resolution if an amp doesn't excite the listener at low volume. In real life, a person with intelligent things to say who speaks softly and clearly will command attention, whereas the mumbling boring guy who has to shout is not worth listening to.
|
WC, interesting point you make about multichannel amps. The 2 channel ATI 6002 might then be better for sonic purity than the 6005, or are you saying that multichannel amps skimp on the power supply for each amp, compromising high power performance? Put another way, at low volumes are the multichannels worse for sonic purity than the stereos, as well as being inferior at higher volumes? The ultimate amp from the ATI designer, the legendary Morris Kessler, is the powerful SAE HP2D. Kessler's emphasis on performance over cosmetics and his efficient manufacturing and contracting services for famous manufacturers have created true value. Michael Fremer from Stereophile, whose ears I "trust" said that the SAE is the most neutral, accurate amp he has heard. His sonic preferences are slightly to the warm side, but he still values neutrality/accuracy, so he respects it although it is not his reference amp. You can get the SAE with meters for $20K retail or without meters for $16K. I can't handle the weight but you can. I wish they had mono versions if only because I could handle that weight, but for the stereo version that is available at a reasonable price, I think you might consider it. Of course, monos usually are better than stereo versions, but they are usually priced double the stereo versions, and I honestly don't think the 20-30% improvement is worth 100% increase in the price. More important than stereo vs mono is the thinking that went into it. A SOTA advanced thinking concept implemented in stereo would be superior to a lesser design in monos. Sure the resale value is probably low, since SAE is not popular, but think of the maximum loss of $16K on the SAE or the Mola Mola, and I would estimate that you are taking comparable absolute losses although smaller percentage losses in the expensive $50K stuff. On the other hand, you are savvy in waiting for good deals, so getting a used Mola Mola, SAE for $8-10K, which you might have to wait many months before selling it at $7K is only a minimal absolute loss.
|
techno_dude, funny. Actually it is the name of the biggest fish of its type. The designer Bruno Putzeys thinks his amp is the "biggest fish in the sea." I considered it the most ambitious implementation of the Hypex NC 1200 module, invented by Bruno himself, until Guido pointed out that more advanced implementations include the big Rowlands and the Merrill Elements. The Mola Mola Kaluga is the most accurate/neutral big power amp I have heard at home. I was set to spend the $16K until Guido mentioned the Merrill, so I will wait for his evaluation. I live reasonably close to Merrill, so I can visit him as more info becomes available. The second in line Merrill Element 116 is "only" $22K, still powerful, and the last is the 114, fairly powerful and probably way below $20K. Be patient everyone, and we'll see.
|
Guido, yes, thanks for correcting my mistake on the Elements. I meant to say that in class D, they are more advanced than the Veritas, Mola Mola and the many established and DIY companies' use of the various Hypex, Pascal and other modules. We'll see if the ambitious implementation of Merrill's GaN modules is superior to the ambitious implementation of NC1200 in the big Rowlands. I don't follow what you mean by saying that your review of E118/116 is purely hypothetical. I found your impressions of the E118 prototype very informative, and I hope you do the thorough evaluation of the production E118/116/114 consistent with your reputation. Next year, I will try one of them after cultivating a relationship with Merrill. If he permits, I will post here about that. But I won't have access to the SOTA Rowland, so your comparison to that will be eagerly awaited by all, especially WC who now considers the Rowland 925 the best amp he's heard by a mile. |
Guido, yes, thanks for correcting my mistake on the Elements. I meant to say that in class D, they are more advanced than the Veritas, Mola Mola and the many established and DIY companies' use of the various Hypex, Pascal and other modules. We'll see if the ambitious implementation of Merrill's GaN modules is superior to the ambitious implementation of NC1200 in the big Rowlands. I don't follow what you mean by saying that your review of E118/116 is purely hypothetical. I found your impressions of the E118 prototype very informative, and I hope you do the thorough evaluation of the production E118/116/114 consistent with your reputation. Next year, I will try one of them after cultivating a relationship with Merrill. If he permits, I will post here about that. But I won't have access to the SOTA Rowland, so your comparison to that will be eagerly awaited by all, especially WC who now considers the Rowland 925 the best amp he's heard by a mile. |
Uh-oh, you are falling for preamps again after swearing off them last night. OK, listen to the above, and then put the final nail on the preamp coffin as you show that all preamps cloud the details you like. The contenders for best overall sound will be DCS straight into the Lux M900u, or DCS into the mystery power amp. If you can ditch the Cardas speaker cable that was incompatible with the Gryphon Coliseum, use the Wireworld speaker cable, and now you have a 3rd contender--DCS into Gryphon. Use the Odin XLR to maintain the highest purity. Pure and simple, lol.
|
dguitarnut, sorry I didn't mean to post twice for emphasis. A-gon just had a technical problem so it came out again. This has occasionally happened to others here. But you are inappropriately negative and display a lack of understanding. I clearly said in the last line that WC found the Rowland 925 superior, so the Merrill Elements are clearly relevant to WC and anyone else here who is seeking SOTA amps. Guido's comments are most valuable. I write to him privately about mutual interests, but respond on this thread only to what is directly relevant to this thread. And for many here who can't afford high priced SOTA amps, I have recommended a few very affordable amps with excellent sonics. I hope they appreciate my efforts even if you don't.
|
techno_dude, thanks for sharing your comparative evaluation of the Shunyata XLR's. I think the best bang for your Shunyata buck is the Denali. As I said before, I felt it was worth $4000 retail, and I don't think any cable is worth that kind of money for the relatively subtle benefit compared to the BIG difference with the Denali.
|
RIAA, you may be correct that for now, WC may not be interested in less popular brands like Merrill with questionable resale prospects. "Flipping" is a term most commonly applied to mundane things like real estate or stocks where the asset has no personal value to the flipper other than a financial transaction. Yet WC's journey is getting more selective as he considers mainly products with SOTA potential. He is settling down for now with his Magico speakers because of their quality. If the Merrill amps turn out to be SOTA and are as good or better than the Rowland 925, I think he might settle down with the Merrill, since they are much cheaper and will represent great value as well. The same goes for relatively inexpensive SOTA contenders such as the SAE 2HP or Mola Mola Kaluga.
|
Jetter, as theothergreg describes in reference to someone else, you are another person who is just acting as a referee without contributing much of substance to the subject of this thread--identifying worthwhile electronics to be considered by WC and others. The issue of "whose" thread is less important than the totality of information shared, for the benefit of anyone who finds at least some of it valuable. Are YOU too "dense" to appreciate that?
|
techno_dude,
Honestly I don't understand the technology in the Denali, or the designer, Caelin Gabriel's reasoning that the miles of power line from the utilities are less important than the few feet immediately before the amp and other components plugged into the Denali. He claims that the Denali is NOT a typical power conditioner with capacitive/inductive filters, but it uses proprietary materials that "absorb" impurities. I don't understand this, but all I can say is that with my system and dirty power in NYC, the Denali makes a WHALE of a difference. For many years, I had been so frustrated that at different random, unpredictable times, my system sounded so veiled and amorphous like it had marshmallows in its mouth. After 1 minute, I decided it was a waste of time to listen to it. I had the Isotek Evo Sigmas conditioner which displayed the line voltage and distortion "measurements," but none of that correlated with the sound quality. I was intellectually frustrated as well. But the Denali has made the system sound great the vast majority of the time. I understand your hesitation because of the great Canadian AC and the other excellent things you have done with the outlets, cables, etc. The best thing to do is to try the Denali for 60 days no risk from Music Direct. I don't think break in is much of an issue, but 60 days of trial should be enough time to judge for yourself. I'm not sure the tower version is worth $1000 more than the horizontal version I have, although Shunyata claims that the horizontal version requires an isolation platform to get the best result. I just have the horizontal version on a plain thin wood table, and am very happy with the results.
|
dguitarnut,
Thanks for recounting your experiences. I agree with most of what you said, but still keep an open mind about new technologies and unknown brands. That's how progress is made, when an unknown someone has original ideas. I don't want to seem like a devout advocate of Merrill or anyone else. At the prices and resale uncertainties, they all require tough scrutiny and trial.
|
WC, Merrill functions like many small companies with a direct sales model involving a 30 day free trial period, with no stupid "restocking" fee. The only real risk is whether 30 days is enough time to judge the broken in unit. Guido says that class D changes up to 1000 hours. If the amp is played continuously, 30 days will give you 700 hours. In my limited experience with the new Classe D200 and the Mytek Brooklyn amp, the character of the sound didn't change much in the first 100-200 hours. If the Elements are truly blow away outstanding, the character will tell you if they are worth the INVESTMENT (not for trying and flipping), even if ultimate break in is uncertain. Perhaps you are still in the try/flip stage and are not ready to get "married" to anything audio, although you are in a serious "relationship" with the Magico. At my age of 65, I wonder how long my good hearing will last, so if the Elements are that wonderful, this will be the last amp INVESTMENT I make. It better be Tony the Tiger GREAT, or else I don't spend the money.
Regarding electrostatics, it is important that an amp provide high power into extremely low impedances. SS amps do that better than tubes. As far as sound quality, I believe that certain stats have the most accuracy, and I want all upstream components to have the utmost accuracy in the service of information retrieval. There is certainly the risk that this approach will lead to more "warts" in the total sound, which I can tolerate if I am very happy with hearing the most info out of the music. I personally don't believe in combining complementary colorations such as warm tube preamps with clear SS amps, because this often leads to the realization that a lot is missing even if you think you have created balance. Don't expect coffee to cure a hangover from too much alcohol, just let time clear the alcohol.
|
Jetter--talk about WHO (YOU) is craving attention with your negative and completely useless posts devoid of any analysis of audio gear. After dguitarnut criticized me, he turned around and gave interesting accounts of his experience, and I thanked him for that. Progress in audio is not about crapping on other people, but sharing informed knowledge and experience, none of which I have seen from you. Don't bother to post unless you have something worthwhile about equipment to contribute. As for the Element, I would email WC or anyone else about my findings. You don't deserve to be a beneficiary of my hard work that goes into my evaluations, unless you change your attitude. I don't care about what YOU think, so over and out to you!
|
dguitarnut,
There is some delicious humor and truth in your comment that this most popular thread has the greatest exposure of an unknown product. WC has created a journey to SOTA, which this product (Element) is likely to be. Actually we should give thanks to Guido for getting this product the attention it deserves. Star Trek was popular because it voyaged to the frontiers of the unknown. Today, William Shatner is as popular as ever, well deserved. Imagine if WC renamed this thread, "The Star Trek Amplifier Quest," he would become the next Shatner of audio!
|
WC, of course, no need for YOU to apologize. We all go through dry and hot spells of inspiration and just have to go where nature takes us. Even though we have different musical tastes, it is a tribute to your objectivity, honesty and sincerity that your comments are valued by all here.
|
RIAA,
Thanks for comparing me to Shakespeare, but I have no literary gifts. I hope you have a lot more accuracy and caring concern in managing money for clients than you displayed in your "paraphrase" of my reviews. I HAVE put up money to own several Krell products over a few decades, and HAVE auditioned more recent ones for 60 day trials. You may not comprehend or admit the quality of my experience, but I am glad that others do.
|
dguitarnut,
I have no agenda since I am not in the audio business. I just share my knowledge and experience to any who may be interested, similar to the goals of WC even though we respect each other's different tastes. Guido does audio consulting professionally, but he is admired by all who interact with him. If he has any agenda, which I doubt, he has the respect to be entitled to it, since his mission is to inform and discuss edge-of-the-art stuff with a sophisticated, gentlemanly perspective. Techno_dude seems to be a music and equipment lover who just wants to share. I have not met either Guido or techno, but I say we three are NOT trying "to IMPOSE anything in this thread no matter what." Opinions are opinions, but you are DEAD WRONG to say what we discuss is "2nd rate gear that no one wants to hear about or cares about." To borrow from the correct logic of RIAA, you cannot say this gear is 2nd rate if you have not personally heard it. Then if "no one wants to hear about or cares about", how will they do the listening to prove that it is 2nd rate? And "if any of this stuff was revolutionary it would have made an impact already"--Guido has mentioned his preliminary listening experience with the Merrill Elements--few have yet heard it, so how could it make an "impact already?" Guido had the kindness to mention the Merrill's, so for you to accuse him of "plugging 2nd rate gear" shows a total lack of respect for his professional expertise and gentlemanly manner. You fumble on your ignorance and lack of logic and respect. Stick to your equipment comments, which are interesting.
|
RIAA, you are partially correct to say that since I have no personal auditioning experience with Dag, my comments about the Dag stuff have no merit. This is literally true, and I don't dispute that. But you would agree that designers have their own personal sound preferences and technical approaches, so it is generally true that there is a "house sound" of any particular designer, unless he has discovered something truly revolutionary that he radically rethinks his approach. Of course, there are at least subtle differences between 2 amps of any designer, but the basic house sound applies more often than not, subject to some differences. I have read reviews of Merrill's established products, but it appears that he has spent several years doing a major redesign with new generation devices, so we should keep an open mind about his new stuff which may or may not exhibit similar characteristics to his older stuff. He may still have his "house sound" but we won't know until we listen in our homes. Both of us could be partially correct. You might say there is no "house sound" and everything must be auditioned. I say that there is usually a degree of "house sound" in every product, and I agree that it should still be auditioned to be more informed. There is also the reality that nobody can audition everything, so reviews serve as a useful screening tool to find the few worthwhile products that should be auditioned, although there is the risk that something gets overlooked. That's life, unfortunately.
However, to accuse me of "spreading false/inaccurate information"...and being "totally reckless and irresponsible" is wrong on your part. When I have personally heard something I say so, and otherwise I have said "according to reviews" this is what the reviewer said. I won't waste my time doing the due diligence on my exact language in these posts to provide confirmatory evidence, because I am not a lawyer hired at $500/hr to do this. My general perspective is clear enough. This is not a legal forum or trial trying to determine who is guilty or innocent, etc. Get back to sharing your long, valuable experience with equipment, the audio industry, etc. Most of us find this more important.
|
ricred1,
I read on another thread that you like the ATI 523. This uses a Hypex 500 module. Could you elaborate further on the tonal characteristics/accuracy, etc.? Since WC prefers monos or stereos over multichannel versions, did you try the stereo 522? Any of the ATI's are attractive packages for sound quality and lighter weight based on my reading and talking to a dealer.
|
WC, a few months ago I spoke to an ATI tech about the difference in sound between the class AB signature and class D Ncore models. He said they were very close, with perhaps the class D sounding brighter. On the other hand, Kalman Rubinson in Stereophile said the ATI 524 class D sounded more mellow and likable to him than his Classe Sigma Monos, which is strange since I personally had the Classe D200 for a long trial period. The D200 is a similar design to the Sigma and sounded warm and reasonably detailed the way you have described Classe house sound. Such disparities in reviews shows why home listening for yourself is a must. It is hard to generalize about class D characteristics, since they vary from warm to sterile, depending on so many other factors in their implementation.
|
minorl,
In general, I have found the Krell amps I have owned and auditioned at home to be neutral and nicely detailed. Specifically what were the relative tonal characteristics and levels of resolution between which Dags and which Krells? Very interesting.
|
ricred1,
The fact that your ATI523 works well with the mighty Rowland 625 S2 in your whole HT suggests that the ATI may have similar tonal and resolution qualities to the Rowland. Maybe you can try just 2 channels and see how the ATI compares to the Rowland to get a more complete idea of the relative characteristics. That would be a fascinating thing to report here, in view of the vast price difference. |
RIAA,
I had the Benchmark AHB2 at home for a 60 day trial, used as stereo. I loved the sound quality, as it was very close to my Bryston 2.5B SST2. I didn't buy it, because it shut down at surprisingly low volume into my unusual load of 2 parallel stereo electrostatic speakers, which go down to 1 ohm with weird phase angles. I had thought the high power specs of the Benchmark would give me the required power, but the home trial showed otherwise. I asked Benchmark if I could strap them in mono to get much more power, but they said no, because the strapped monos would be even more intolerant of very low impedance loads. For most people with dynamic speakers of much higher efficiency and more comfortable loads than my electrostatics, either a single stereo or strapped mono Benchmark AHB2 would work very well, with fabulous accurate/neutral sound quality. For stereo/mono at retail $3k/6k, a great bargain.
Incidentally, my Bryston 2.5B SST2 sounded quite different from the 4B SST2 at home, despite company assertion that all the models of that design sound the same except for power. Another example of the importance of home audition in your own system.
|
WC, come to think of it, I believe that strapped mono Benchmark AHB2's at $6k retail would give you just about everything you value--good power, superb accuracy with no HF harshness, superb neutrality with a slight hint of warmth (at least compared to my Bryston 2.5B SST2), the lowest distortion and noise specs in the industry. This is truly a sleeper, but pretty popular among the informed cognoscenti. When you are ready, you could get a 60 day no risk trial through Music Direct, or a 30 day trial through the company direct, or if you got a great deal for used, I don't think you would have any trouble selling them because they are rarely seen on the used market since they are keepers to most people. Also, you could keep them as cheap references for a long time.
|
bill_k, yes, good technical points. Bryston and ATI told me the same thing. For ATI class d, the 54 series are strapped versions of the 52 series, so although they have more power into 8 ohms, the 54 series are not as comfortable into lower impedances. Thanks.
|
minorl,
Thanks for your honest description of the sound character of the Dag, which is consistent with a well-established NY dealer's observations. It seems that you have heard the Dag at shows or dealers, but not at home. Correct me if I am wrong. The best opportunity to audition current Krells at home risk free would be through Music Direct or Audio Advisor. The Music Room in Colorado always has used Krells for sale, with a 45 day free trial. The last big one was the top of the line Solo 575 monos for under $10K (retail $22K)--they were snatched up in only a few weeks after listing. I learned about Music Room from A-gon. Their buy direct prices are a little lower than the asking prices here on A-gon. They are classy people to deal with.
|
mrdecibel,
Thanks for mentioning the Luminous Audio Passive Preamp. I hope many here will try this or other passive preamps. Did you try any of the units from Music First? The MF was very transparent and I couldn't hear any difference in repeated bypass tests after an hour of trial at someone else's place. Most people will say that an active line stage with gain delivers more dynamics, but along with that comes electronic veiling of details and other distortions. But I find the Rane ME 60 EQ a must for tastefully tailoring sound to your preferences. As you know as a musician, all speakers, electronics and recordings suck in different ways, so the typical audiophile sanctimonious shunning of EQ is not a pragmatic approach to getting the most out of your music the way you want it. I agree that the Rane input level control knobs are crude, so I keep them untouched at maximum clockwise, where the gain is about unity for RCA and 6 dB for XLR. I use my decent volume control on the Benchmark Pre 1 DAC. You could try inserting your Rane between your Luminous preamp and the power amp. This way you use the excellent switching function and volume control of the Luminous. And whatever electronic artifacts are introduced by the Rane, they are less than probably all but very expensive line stages, and the benefits of EQ vastly outweigh any artifacts introduced. Ever notice how some 1940 vocal recordings can sound wonderful? That comes from skillful close miking and EQ. Mercury Living Presence recordings from the late 1950's sound immediate and exciting due to HF boost in EQ, which is obvious but the whole effect is great if you can forgive the manipulation. If you don't like the results, just EQ to undo the effect to your taste.
|
thezaks,
Dave, I am glad you had positive experiences with your Rane EQ. In my view, it is essential for any type or quality of music or music system. It gives you the utmost in tailoring the sound to your tastes, as I have said. In my case it has eliminated the need for a preamp, with big benefits in eliminating the electronic veiling of preamps as well as the cost. When I want another source, I just unplug. Whatever slight distortions of the Rane ME 60 electronics are vastly outweighed by the utility of the EQ capability. I like the original model of the ME 60 better for its transparency, even though the EQ curves in the later model are more advanced. So what, because you can use the 30 band 1/3 octave adjustments to your taste anyway. For 5 channel HT, you could get 3 stereo Rane units, or get 1-2 units for the front L+R or L+center+R, respectively, and not bother with the 2 rear channels. Any way will give you so much benefit. I paid $600 retail for my unit 22 years ago. Reverb.com is a source for used pro equipment. Enjoy!
|
WC, I understand and respect your preference for flavoring your music the way you want. I do the same with my EQ, but I want an amp that is colorless and reveals the most info. The Boulder is an example of that, which I have never heard but take your word for it. I am also open to discovering another EQ whose electronics are as revealing as possible. That is not boring but instead is exciting if you love your music revealed in all its glory. I'm not sure your analogy of the plain boiled chicken is apt. If the music has the naturally delicious colors and mild or pungent spices, the accurate amp will reveal it all, so it won't be an unflavored chicken. What you might be doing is flavoring the music on top of what has been already flavored by the chef. Taste the chef's dish first, then add your own flavor if you think you can do better. In most cases, a great chef knows best. Experience the music the way the artist/engineers intended it, first.
|
thezaks, Great find on the used Rane. Yes, I agree with the audiophile thinking is that less electronics is best, which is why I value the elimination of the preamp in my system. The EQ is a separate issue which I think is most useful. I look forward to hearing how it works out in your HT--you can eliminate the preamp. |
mrdecibel, We agree on most points. I would say that your Luminous or any other high quality passive preamp such as Music First is a better conduit than the electronics of our Rane. I just want to emphasize the importance of EQ for music reproduction optimization. Done right, using your ears, EQ enhances the musical tightness of a group, etc. Studio engineers often do a great job, but any audiophile who disagrees with their choices can do the EQ for a particular recording, electronics or speaker that they could improve. Personally, I think speakers show the most deviations from natural instruments, so EQ is most important for that. EQ can be used for room correction, but the full flexible use of EQ goes way beyond room correction. I also don't like the peculiar inputs of the later Rane which require adapters. The sound of the later Rane electronics is more colored than the original I bought, so it is in my closet. Our little discussion of this topic is certainly directly relevant to this thread, because many people have spent big money changing amps, etc., when simple and judicious EQ would enable many more preferences than the differences between amps. It is about the net/total end result of all the components, not just individual things like amps, etc. |
WC, I think I've got a better food analogy that I hope you find useful. People do comparative wine tasting, but if this is done after adding sugar to each wine, they all taste like sugar, or the ability to discriminate is lessened. Another analogy would be the chef who is creating many types of flavorings from sweet to sour/bitter. I don't know much about culinary arts, but I would think he would start with a neutral sauce and then modify the flavor according to the concept of the dish. He doesn't start with a sweet sauce, because then the ability to modify it is limited. Back to music--we like a variety of tonalities, ranging from the sweet sound of a soft female singer to the trumpet which can sound soft and mellow but nasty and strident when blasted. It is best to start with a neutral sauce or system, and then see how much variety of tone colors you can get from different music. Guido may be right that the Boulder is a poor example of accuracy and neutrality. I have never heard it and certainly am not advocating it, but the goal should be to start with accurate, neutral, well balanced electronics. You already have such a speaker, the Magico. You have your best chances of long term success if all the components are that way, because then the variety of tonal qualities will be most appreciated. |
WC, I have not heard all the Wilsons or Magicos or Martin Logans, but I have heard examples of each. There is little doubt that for dynamic speakers, your Magico is hard to beat. Sure, its bass may be quantitatively less than other speakers like the Focal Sopra or several Wilsons, but its quality/accuracy is probably closer to the natural truth, according to your descriptions. Just appreciate its virtues and tolerate its deficiencies, although if I heard it I would probably say the accurate bass is one of its assets. I would be careful in trying to get more bass from amps that emphasize that, because there will likely be losses in midrange/HF accuracy and information retrieval from those amps. And more bass may be accompanied by looser, not tighter, bass.
The Martin Logan 15a or the CLX may give you more midrange accuracy and naturalness, although they will probably have flaws in other areas in which the Magico excels.
|
WC, I gather from your descriptions that "wow" means more dynamic and more bass. That's what Wilsons and plenty of other dynamic speakers are about. But the Magico and ML electrostats are about accuracy and honest naturalness. This is true when using any amplifier to drive these or similar types of speaker. Accuracy/naturalness are not immediately obvious to the casual visitor, so there is less "wow." I recall that it took you some time to appreciate the Magico, as you were transitioning away from the "wow" type of speaker. The more advanced driver and cabinet R&D of the Magico compared to these other dynamic speakers is consistent with the sonic results.
|
thezaks, Yes, the Rane can be used to tailor bass, but also everything else with much more flexibility than trying different amps. That said, it is mainly used to alter tonal balance to your liking. EQ can yield more quantity of bass, but it won't tighten it. My electrostatics have a bass boost in the interface transformer which I don't like, because the bass is loose. I cut the deep bass, which has an approximate effect of tightening it, but it is really a reduction in the bass bloat, which is not the same or as truthful as getting more accurate, taut bass, the true goal. To get true deep and accurate bass, there is nothing like power and control from big transformers, caps and power supplies, but the Rane helps a little for this. Dave, I encourage you to try a few Ranes in your HT. As you say, little risk. The quality of its electronics may not equal mrdecibel's Luminous, but it is probably very competitive with that of your active preamp (it killed my Spectral DMC10 gamma of 35 years ago). Just by substituting the Ranes for your HT preamp in the flat setting (no EQ), you may come out ahead in accuracy. Then using the EQ to tailor your system according to program material and your taste should provide tremendous benefit. |
speedbump6,
Wow, 100 different guitars. I once went to a violin collector. He had 100 low priced violins displayed in his bookshelves. I don't know why he didn't collect much fewer but finer violins for all the money he spent. I was out to buy a fine violin at a reasonable price, so didn't care for any of his violins. But he enjoyed his collection, and I know other collectors who have finer stuff. To each his own.
WC is like a collector of a few pieces of fine stuff who does very well in the process of buying and selling so he can move on to the next great item. |
thezaks,
OK, you're right--I didn't understand the hdmi/processing functions. Therefore, the preamp/processor is essential for HT, but an active preamp is NOT essential in a regular stereo. Assuming the stereo speakers are reasonably efficient and the power amp has enough gain, an active preamp can be replaced with an excellent passive preamp such as the Luminous (thanks to mrdecibel for mentioning this) or the Music First. One of the Music First models has a +6 dB switch if more gain is needed. But I didn't hear any loss of transparency with the +6 dB switch in a bypass test. Either the Luminous or Music First will be more transparent than any active preamp. If coloration is sought, an active preamp will be preferred. You know my view on that.
I believe everyone, including WC should try the Rane for the many benefits. For getting more bass, the Rane has some benefit, but for the goal of getting very deep AND tighter bass with more power, the Rane won't replace a better power amp that will deliver these qualities. For most room correction purposes which usually involve reducing bass resonances at certain room mode frequencies, the Rane would be very useful at a far lower cost than room correction software. I don't know the software products, but using your ears with the Rane is really the best way to go. You should be adjusting your system based on your perceptions, not blinding relying on objective measurements. Measurements can give a useful starting point, but they should not be used to override perceptions. Your system should please yourself according to your perceptions.
For best results in everything, get the best power amp AND the Rane or another quality EQ, for stereo.
|
