My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Showing 50 responses by kren0006
"We don’t need to shill the speakers" Great! Happy for you. Then don’t shill, would be my suggestion. You should be happy that I compiled your long list of advertisements in the link I posted a couple of posts back. Anybody who is interested in your speakers can now read it and repeatedly learn all about your speakers, and not be distracted by the stuff WC is testing, LOL! |
Counterpoint (at the risk of giving this topic way too much oxygen): Dave, you overstate the risk. We are not talking about a $50 item that is easy verify the claims. We are talking about a $25k item that near as I can tell nobody on here has purchased, even after demo’ing (if I’m wrong about that, I’ll gladly stand corrected). What is the risk to endlessly hype a product here to try to get a few big sales? Certainly less than the potential reward. The only real risk (assuming nobody buys them here as seems to be the case - again, I haven’t seen anyone state they have purchased, but I’ll stand corrected if that’s wrong), then the only risk is that they’ll get called out for shilling. I agree with you, Dave, on providing a sample for testing. I suggested it a few posts ago. But instead all it has been is advertising. That isn’t a crime, but at least to me it is annoying. That is my only point. |
Hmmm, wracking my NYE clouded brain trying to remember the amps you’ve been most negative about .... Hard to delineate by year but overall the one I remember most was Boulder but I think that was stereo not mono, and then some Pass Labs mono set (forget #) that you really didn’t like that led to your mid fi conclusion. Those are the two that stand out the most but not sure if they were 2019, NYE clouded brain and all ..... |
Or maybe it will be Dag set because I don’t see that in your edited list of likes. Yeah that’s my new guess. You weren’t critical of them in print too much as I recall though but maybe that was so they’d sell. Thinking back over whole thread and switching gears 180degrees (what does that even mean?) to amps you loved at time but now never seem to make your best of lists were Bel Canto Black and Musical Fidelity. Ok to bed for real now. Happy New Year |
Ha! I don’t even know what that means re V’s politics but thank god he doesn’t talk politics here. I think that would drive me right over the edge. haha. Well anyway glad to know I wasn’t the one in hot water. I’ll have to try harder maybe..... And I certainly meant no ill will towards faxer. I’m sure he’s a fine chap and I would love to hear his speakers when audio shows start up again. Here’s a random Q for WC: Ever had PS Audio Directstream DAC and if so anything under $8k beat it? |
I don’t think you need to play music but would suggest just jumping right in with little more emotion like your posts on this forum. Little too dry. Think Guttenberg or McGowan presentation wise in terms of grabbing attention. I know, easy for me to say. Just offering a suggestion, not meant to criticize. Good first effort. Good luck with this!! But don’t stop posting here though either |
Suggest shorter vids and more of them. 20 mins or 30 mins is too long I think. I started watching vid 2 but got interrupted and haven't made it back yet. Shoot for under 10 minutes would be my suggestion - enough time to cover a lot of ground but still a bite sized chunk folks can watch in a spare block of time without having to majorly plan around it. |
Oh I meant no disrespect to either when I said maybe not totally into either. I’m a class D supporter. My main amp is actually an Audio Research class D (probably some are shocked to learn ARC ever made class D). For me I guess I’m always subconsciously viewing everything against all the other stuff, and I don’t think either competes with Gryphon, which I know is a bit more expensive. Again, thought both Merrill and Dag sounded solid and on first listen I couldn’t really pick a winner. |
Take your time, Rome wasn't built in a day. Ramp it up as quickly or as slowly as you want to or as works for you. It's your deal. We're just giving some ideas. Nobody expects it to be perfect overnight. If the content is good, word of mouth will kick in or eventually people will find it and sign up. It'll take time. Just have fun with it and don't put to much pressure on yourself to get to a certain point by a certain point in time. If it's meant to happen, it will. If not, hey, it's just a hobby anyway ... |
Mine was just an observation on m3, not a criticism. I’m still calibrating to the timing and flow, I suppose, as I recently just finished binge reading everything from the very beginning, and in doing so everything seems to happen instantaneously without regard to delays between posts. I do hope with start of YouTube that WC’s posting quality/frequency doesn’t trail off here. Little worried about that but understand only so many hours in a day. I’m partial to the thread, I guess |
Wow, that is a damn fine video. It was exactly like how your posts have been on this site which is why the thread was so popular. Honest, straightforward, assessment of strengths and weaknesses and direct head-to-head comparison. Very well done. Keep it up. What I liked about the presentation was the emotion and energy. To be honest many of first three videos sounded like you recorded them after being awake for 18 hours straight - you sounded kinda tired on first three vids. But with this fourth one you were not doing background crap or a history lesson -- you were getting into what you do - review and compare amps!! That came thru big time and was so much better. Thanks! |
Well I think you hit the exact sweetspot with the Pass/Dag video in terms of content and detail. Best way I can describe is it seemed like a compilation of your posts on this thread - raw as you say - which will be what garners support. My opinion but playing music is not needed. It’ll never sound decent and then people will just quibble about it. Plus it’d be boring. People either will decide whether they trust your opinion or not. Most reading here already do. If they don’t trust what you’re saying, they won’t take your advice, and that’s fine. But playing music that won’t come through quality wise isn’t going to change their minds. They’ll just find a new thing to bitch about. You hit it right here with this video. Giving your honest opinion on two pieces. It won’t match everyone’s, but that’s okay. Just like the 180 pages of this thread. Bubbly personality not needed - just the emotion that came through in 4th video of you doing what you love - comparing high level equipment- that's all you need |
Yeah that’s life. And to be fair for most purchases at this level are a bigger deal and expected greater commitment than for you where you know one way or the other in a month or few you won’t have the piece any longer. People put more thought into who they’ll move in with than who they’ll meet for coffee |
Easy. Gryphon smokes 118. I think we’ve heard enough of Gryphon last 2-3 months to know that outcome. Just go watch some of the old videos. Dag rating doesn’t really seem consistent with its performance in head to heads over the last month. I am honestly having trouble remembering even a single video shootout where Dag was judged the consensus winner. With the rating it was given, i’d have expected just the opposite. As just latest example, I think most preferred the class D Merrill setup to the Dag even with Dag costing probably nearly double when preamps and stand factored in. If i’m wrong about that please point me to such a shootout where Dag was the consensus winner in a shootout. |
Fair enough, that makes sense. I was thinking a couple of possibilities were that the videos didn’t fully convey the Dag advantages or maybe you just really liked the Dags more generally than majority of viewers based on videos. Either of those could have also explained it but I’ll buy your reasoning of more time. Thx |
Okay, had a chance to relisten to the last video on my better headphone playback system, and I'm giving the win to the Merrill Audio monoblocks. I think I just am not a fan of D'Agostino. Since these arrived I can't remember one shootout that I thought either the amp or the preamp won. I would choose the Luxman pair over the D'Agostino pair, even though they cost half as much msrp - personal preference, and Gryphon all day over either. Sad to see the DAW's go, but knew it would eventually happen -- they had a great run. Hopefully you choose well on the next speaker. |
Exactly WC. Your call. Ricevs, there are literally near infinite permutations and combinations they he could run, and reasonable people can disagree on what the right approach is. Lots of us have strong opinions. Hell if it were up to me the grading categories for the tests would be different but I realize this is WC’s show and he should run it the way he wants to. I find it incredibly entertaining. Plus people have short attention spans and if he only changed one little thing many might lose interest. Could be too boring. Not for hardcore devotees but with his YouTube he’s trying to attract a wider audience |
WC has never really been about trying to maximize any component. That is hard for many to understand because most of us do try to do that n our systems. But he moves way too fast to get bogged down like that. It’s a turnoff for some but I feel like this comes up about every four months as a criticism. Just roll with it and don’t overthink it. |
We can extrapolate a bit. Of course maybe it is not scientifically perfect but when you take everything in there is value in the comparisons for sure. No need to be robotic about it. Most people aren’t selling the farm based on these tests, just refining notions of what they like or don’t. What’s the harm? For people who are new to the thread I can see how they’d have that reaction. But everyone who has been around awhile gets all of the caveats that come with saying we prefer this or that based on listening to one of the videos. We just don’t re-post all the caveats each time we express an opinion (thank God!) because that would really make for boring radio |
See I think, in contrast to Viber and ricevs (if I’m understanding), that just as many people would only consider the matched package of Dag pre+amp or the Merrill combo or some other preamp and amp from the same manufacturer (as opposed to an unmatched pair), and therefore I really like the shootout he did. As always reasonable people can disagree. But WC not retired and this isn’t his full time job (ie, doesn’t have unlimited time) so he has to make choices on what to present and can’t please everyone |
I'll acknowledge that maybe I'm giving heightened attention to bass. But it's only because of the impossible to ignore lack of extension that is causing me to focus on that feature and probably make my choice of the two on the lesser of two options lacking in an important area (even if the other option may be better in other areas). |
Well I guess I’ll break with what seems to be the consensus on the YT channel. To me tweeters outside sound better (assuming that was what the second video was). I’ll note that the lack of bass extension is very noticeable in either arrangement, but that is what you get with these speakers without a sub. Very inferior in that regard and others to the Sasha DAW’s, but to be fair the 20.7 costs only 40% of Wilsons so I understand that, however I’d guess would still likely have same deficiencies even if 30.7 - not a speaker topology for bass absent a subwoofer. Let’s not kid ourselves, bass absence cannot be ignored. We perceive down to 20Hz (those who can still hear normally) and when it is missing it is glaringly obvious. The Gryphon, if anything, should be able to bring out the best bass performance, so it’s not the amp. That said, the bass sounds tighter and less sloppy with the tweeters outward in yesterday’s video, in my opinion. Maybe this results in a little less cohesion top-to-bottom (I’ve only listened once - would need to revisit), but I still think it is preferable of the two choices. It almost sounds like a wider soundstage as well with tweeters outside, which is good. I didn’t necessary notice any negative impacts on treble per se with tweeters outward, but perhaps overall cohesion as I mentioned may have suffered a bit. However, bass sounded not good to say the least to me when tweeters were inward. On top of the lack of extension, sloppy and muddled, also reaching into the lower mids even. |
Faxer you should take a cue from atmasphere. He is also a designer but never endlessly promotes his products like you do on this thread, which is about WC’s journey. I can’t remember one post you’ve made to this thread that wasn’t to shill your product. If it were one or two times, that’d be one thing. But I bet you’ve posted similar advertisements at least a dozen times. Not a good look. Just a suggestion. Or start a separate thread to hype your wares. |
Faxer: I’m not claiming a right to tell anyone who can or cannot post. I’m merely suggesting that your continuous shilling is becoming embarrassing. The forum is rife with readers complaining about unsolicited pushers in other threads, and I’m suggesting that shilling the way you do is not the best approach to get readers warm up to your product. You are using WC’s thread to advertise. Nobody else does that. Not a personal attack. Just a suggestion, or opinion, as you say. if you really want him to try your speakers send him some free ones to demo like the cable companies did. |
Dave, Well to each their own as to whether they consider it shilling, I suppose. I am going to count the number of posts that faxer has made to the thread hyping his speakers and report back. I can’t really disagree with your other points about taking a risk. Fair enough. Edit: So faxer has 50 posts to this thread, well over a full page’s worth, and several others have called him out for the same thing I did. Most of the posts are to advance his speakers. Here are the posts. Judge for yourself I guess, but yes, I call that shilling (granted, I have read the entire thread). https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/my-long-list-of-amplifiers-and-my-personal-review-of-each/by_member?username=faxer But I guess I have made my point now so let’s go back to regular programming. If others disagree with my opinion on advertising here, that’s certainly fine with me. As was mentioned, we always have the ability to ignore the advertising posts, or any others (including mine). |
Yes. Some cannot get past class D bias, I suspect. Totally agree. Not pointing fingers at anyone here just making general observation after following many class D threads. The blind shootouts are fun. With the DAWs it was great because I didn’t have to wonder “well maybe it’s a speaker deficiency causing me to pick X or Y.” Could always pick out when Gryphon was playing. Kinda like, yep, that for sure is Gryphon/Wilson, no doubt. Now with the 20.7 I won’t have that confidence but still look forward to it. |
So my first comment is the Ref6SE from the previous video sounds much better than the Dagostino preamp in this video. That’s observation one. Observation two was I thought the Maggies not really up to the challenge, especially the first track with either presentation. Not impressive sound overall, imo. As to Number 1 vs. Number 2, I thought Number 2 was better. |
No prejudice against inexpensive amps here. The two amps in my main two systems have msrp $6k (an integrated) and $9k (separates). (which on this thread is nothing). But I want to go forward, not backwards or sideways, and this thread/channel is about the hi end (so my stuff not really relevant here). I keep my stuff for many years and do extensive auditioning before purchasing anything, so I’m always fairly certain that I’m getting what I like best whenever I do. And the DAW and $30k separates are way down the road, if at all. Right now I’m focusing on a Luxman integrated, as I said, but at least that’s worthy of mention here, as WC has raved about them. That’s the only thing that’s relatively near term for me, but even that may be a ways off. Luckily, I’m extremely happy with my systems in their present form, so I’m good. Switching gears, I wanted to mention that I totally agree with maghister on something he posted a couple of pages back: "The most important acoustical factor to test when assessing a system S.Q. is the basic essential one: ’Timbre tonal playing perceived surface and volume micro-structure’" Dude’s posts are insufferably long, but there is often a lot of good info in there - <thumbs up>. The purity and love of music that he has, with inexpensive gear that he has put a lot of effort into, is pretty infectious |
Interesting about the second blind shootout. The videos have been coming so quickly that I didn’t get enough time to give a super critical listen to that second one. But I will say that on the first listen I wasn’t able to pick a clear winner. That surprised me at the time but now it makes sense. With the Merrill out of the mix and the Dag in against the Parasound, that closed up the gap (ie, removed the superior amp and put one in more in line with the Parasound). Unfortunately for Dag, yet another indictment of it, as again it struggled to even beat Parasound. I do think I had it maybe slightly ahead if I recall. Nice choice on speakers. They’ll be a bit of an upgrade on the DAWs but they are really similar, just bigger woofers. The Wilson streak continues... would be really interesting to learn what other speakers you were considering |