I realize this’ll probably never happen but you might consider keeping both the DAW and the 3.7i long term as references at wildly different price points, assuming you can get the 3.7i to come around to your liking.
Reason I’m now changing my tune now knowing what it is is bc I’ve heard this speaker sound really damn good (albeit with $50k amps and a top Rel sub). But you won’t get there without a sub I’m afraid.
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Those Maggies look about as good as any I’ve seen. Still hideous, but who cares if you’ve got the dedicated room and can do what you want without your better half vetoing things.
In my search I considered those 3.7i but ended up going with Spendor.
Since we’re all making recommendations, Spendor D9.2, msrp $11.5k, iconic British brand, 100% in-house design (all drivers including tweeter, crossovers, cabinet, etc, all developed and produced in house). Baby bro D7 spent 5 yrs Stereophile Recommended Components class A while Wilson Yvette class B.
Yeah, Spendor D9.2 should be your next “budget” speaker!! (If you decide to get on a speaker roll) |
“I could take my Rane and probably make the Ulf surpass the Alexx without EQ.”
PRICELESS!!! |
Not surprising. They’re really good speakers, especially for the price. When I demo’d them at dealer with bel canto black I was floored by how quick they were, and their tonal balance was right up my alley as well.
Yes, the instant I saw what they were I stopped watching the vid and typed here that the 118’s would be good match - then went back to finish the vid and heard you say you planned to try the 118’s. Thumbs up |
So the person who has never heard either speaker in person, let alone in same system and room, is telling WC what his new reference is? Ok, got it, LOL.
I’ve heard DAW and 3.7i in same room. No contest IMO. It’s not a competition as WC mentioned.
PS: I predict WC will definitely want to go back to the Wilsons. Let’s see who is correct.... |
I do predict he’ll get the 20.7 or even the bigger one (forget its name) ; ) |
Well, my priority is actually sound quality as a whole, but for what it’s worth the Wilsons have better clarity than the Maggies to my ears across the whole frequency range, yes better, and I happen to like the Maggies.
Viber go listen to both in the same room and then feel free to disagree if you like. Otherwise, theoretical discussions and projections without having heard the speakers are rather pointless, and are WC’s pet peeve, as WC has admonished you for too many times to count since this thread began. |
I know and yet I still fall into the trap....ok, July 13 resolution, don't feed into V's silliness. You don't know how hard it was to hold off on going off on the zip cord stuff over weekend, but I did : )
Ignore....ignore....ignore...ignore... |
Sweet! Called it! Arriving in 3....2....1
Love it! They sound a LOT better. Good move - that was the funnest reveal yet the way you did that. When I saw it I was like, YES!! (wait, I hope he didn’t sell the DAWs?!?!). |
I predicted the 3.7i would ultimately underwhelm without a sub, and unfortunately I think same might be true of 20.7 without a sub but to lesser degree. But it’ll be fun nonetheless.
I am going to predict that the most expensive purchase coming up could be Wilson Alexx. It just makes too much sense. Between Neolith and XS300 it almost surely means that the component has to be six figures to be the biggest, and I can’t really see you getting that excited about an amp like that (maybe Dartzeel?).
But I think it’ll be Alexx and the DAW and Dag amp will go.
And if that’s right, I also predict, wait for it, that you’ll really like the Alexx but that there will be Some things about the DAW (some micro dynamics and musical soul) that you will miss. How’s that for a prediction going out several steps not only predicting the component but also the reaction!
Well that’s a pretty specific prediction and probably has about 0.005% chance of being the plan but it’s fun to guess. |
V said: “but it is still apparent that the 3.7i has more lifelike snap on the guitar than the Wilson, which agrees with WC's overall finding of greater life and excitement from the 3.7i vs Wilson.”
Amazing.
WC never said anything of the sort, first. Second, IMO Wilson has way more lifelike snap on guitar. Not even close. You can disagree on that (tho u admit to never hearing them, I have) but Don’t gaslight as to WC findings, please.
Show exactly where WC said “overall finding of greater life and excitement from the 3.7i vs Wilson” without wishing it to be true. I’ll wait.
He simply never said anything like that. If anything he discouraged in the video comparisons between the two for obvious reasons (M not in same league). Don’t gaslight. Anything he did say in no way equates to the statements you attributed to him.
Again, I’ll wait for you to cite those findings you claim WC had. Don’t project |
Yep, he’ll be back : ) and that’s a good thing as far as I’m concerned - well more good than bad anyway, everyone has their pluses and minuses. That said, I wouldn’t endorse all such super-regular contributors, but I digress, and nobody cares what I think anyway, haha.
Wow, just got through the whole thread after a month or so of binge reading. Quite the journey!
WC, you have posted your top amp selections at various price levels, but I don’t think you’ve listed your favorites at $5k, which is level many readers may be most interested in. If I missed it, I apologize, that’s certainly possible. I recall the "up to $10k" level, but nothing below. Even "up to $7k" would be helpful if you don’t want to drop all the way down to $5k.
I realize it’s been quite some time since you’ve had an amp at that price level, but if you could, would you reference your notes and list the top 3 you’ve had up to $5k or $7k? Thanks!
The only thing I’d change about how you rotate through gear is I think it’d be better if you always kept your top-performing piece (speaker, dac, amp, preamp) and only got rid of something if it was bested by something newly acquired or existing in your setup -- that way you’d always retain your "current best-of" and your system (to your ears) would always be improving and never potentially taking steps backwards. You’d only need to keep the top performing amp, speaker, preamp, dac, etc., and could continue to shuffle out all those who try but fail to knock the current king-of-mountain piece from the pedestal.
That’s not to say you couldn’t continue to do shootouts at lower levels (and we love that!), but you’d always have your reference set! You’d for instance be able to compare mid-level 925’s to some Mc or Pass amp, let’s say, and declare a winner, and then since neither would beat Block or Pass XS you’d still have those and could say, they come in at 88% of my reference piece (or whatever % or other metric you’d like to use).
Easy for me to say because it’s not my $$, of course.
But far be it from me to alter your journey, haha, you don’t need my advice!
Enjoyable read! |
20.7's arriving in 3.......2.......1.......
WC, right now you have in your room arguably the two most iconic speaker brands in the world. Must not suck to be you, haha : )
I said right away when I found you got Maggies that you should keep both the DAWs and 3.7i's long term as references. (and also that you'll add a sub, haha). When I auditioned 20+ speakers in the under $10k range, the 3.7i made my top 3. Would have been top 2 but for the form factor.
DAWs and 3.7i completely different but both really good, albeit at different levels of performance. |
This may be an interesting question that I don’t think has been discussed or answered in all these many pages of this thread:
It’s clear from WC’s description of the top-o-line Pass amps that he loves them, but just as clear that he DOESN"T like the lower end Pass amps, or at least would not recommend them over comparables.
Here’s the question: Which amplifier brand does the best job at standing out above the competition at ALL price levels, all things considered? That is, their lower end amps (sub $10k) are the best or nearly the best at that price point, their mid-level amps ($20k-$30k; best or nearly best at this level), the same, and also for their cost-no-object amps?
Now I know there probably isn’t an easy answer here, but that’s why I’m asking. There probably isn’t any company that dominates all three. Is there anyone who takes 2 of the 3 categories? Some (e.g., D’ag, at the expensive end, Parasound, PS Audio at the inexpensive end) probably only make amps in two of the three categories, or even only in one of the three categories.
If no one single brand is best in all three, is there a brand best in two of the three? Or further, maybe one brand is best or nearly best in low and mid, and another brand is best or nearly best in mid and high?? Suppose it is even possible one could be best in low and high, but not mid??
Bake in all of the variables, and who comes out on top?
Pass?
Musical Fidelity?
Audio Research?
Luxman?
McIntosh?
Rowland?
Bel Canto?
Bryston?
Hegel?
Boulder?
Note that my arbitrary low, mid, high levels above are really mainly fitting into the hi-end-ness of this thread; most would probably bump those numbers way down for their own situations. |
Block Audio and BAT are two more I forgot |
Thanks, haha yeah for sure I forgot Simaudio as WC definitely liked one or more of them. Was trying to quickly type up the post in 5 minutes at work and was wracking my brain trying to remember all the brands he liked over these 163 pages! I’m sure there’s a few others I missed too ...
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My dealer has Alexx playing almost constantly with ARC Ref 160m and it sounds fantastic. I for one hope you go that route with the big Wilsons. Plus, come on, on this journey it is about time that you had a six-figure component, right?? : ) |
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We got to imagine it during his too-short European vacation and it was by far the best the thread ever was. I guess on a day-to-day basis it maybe isn’t overwhelming but try binge-reading from beginning as many newcomers do and it is mind-numbing.
It’s statements like this in his just above post "The GTA at about $20K will beat any dynamic speaker for clarity, naturalness and compete in dynamic SPL’s" that are just ridiculous and over the top, considering he admits he hasn’t owned or even heard many of the speakers/components he pontificates upon with a dogmatic and monochromatic focus.
God I hope my mention of Rane and zip cords doesn’t bring those beauties to front-of-mind, tip-of-fingers, ... |
You are shilling for Faxer, and between two of you I'm sick of hearing about GTA, no offense to the product, as I've never heard it. I'm sure it's great, but I think WC is in better position to know what he wants than you are.
The funny thing is that WC has about 1000x more audio equipment experience than you do and yet you tell him what to do. Luckily, he mostly ignores you, from Mytek to Rane to GTA to zip cords to ....
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Not terrible but sounded pretty congested to me, especially from middle of midrange downward, and I guess if you are okay with music that doesn't go below 50 Hz then these are fine but otherwise pretty lacking in bass. I can definitely hear that congestion that you referred to in the video, WC.
Missing the DAW's already....but let's see if the 3.7i's can improve...
Agree not a good pairing with the Dag. Stick with the Gryphon I think. |
Give me the combination of DAW and 900u over the combination of Constellation and 3.7i any day, at half the total cost! |
I think the answer to your question WC is that 99% of people try to keep improving their system over time, always trying to move forward, and each time a change is made to their system it really is a binary question to be asked of did I move forward or backward?
You don’t necessarily approach that way, as you’ve explained.
Your style of review presentation is also much different from mag reviews or other YT reviews where they really just focus on the component being reviewed (maybe only mentioning surrounding components).
By contrast your vids always show entire system. We can see what changes over time. Even your declarations (“addition to the family” EG) conjure up system level thinking rather than component level thinking. All of which is good , I think.
So even though you review a lot of components, because of the familiarity you’ve built, in a lot of ways it still feels like we’re watching a system evolve. Again, which is good.
And thus, I think natural to assess whether system is improving over time or not, like we do with our own systems at a slower pace. But the difference is if we make our own systems worse, we typically immediately change back, if possible. |
Now that you’ve given your lukewarm review of the Maggies and how they unfortunately fall apart with complicated dynamic music, maybe move on from the planar experiment and get a worthy #2 speaker in behind the Wilsons.
Maggies fun like you say but really without a sub, never had much of a chance to be excellent, and the limitations that you cataloged didn’t even really have to do with lack of bass, they were in addition to that bass deficiency.
Something perhaps like one of those Fyne’s you were talking about. Or Spendor D9.2 ($11k). Or a current Dynaudio, ugly as they are. Or Kef blade or blade 2???? |
So WC, you lived with the Neoliths for over a year and loved them....have these mid-level and dated Wilsons already surpassed the Neos in your all time speaker hierarchy?
Great review so far - just waiting for V to pipe in and explain to all of us why the Wilsons can’t be as good as WC is telling us they are (based on theory of course or on properties WC should be valuing more but isn’t) |
“In short , they are the best speakers I've heard in my room.”
Oops, I guess you already crowned the Wilson’s the kings, assuming by “my room” you mean to encompass your entire journey.
Let’s see how they stand the test of time since it’s super early. There have been other components that on day 1 you’ve said were amazing but then they fade away quickly without much further praise - but the neo’s certainly were not in that category as you repeatedly praised them as the best over your year of ownership. Until now ....
Will the mid-level Wilson’s hold the perch as long? Doubtful given the turnover but who knows? |
Didn’t WC just say in this thread that he’d pick Magnepan 3.7i over Magico (A and even an S! - that’ll probably rankle some feathers), Focal below $20k-ish, Martin Logan below $15k-ish?
(I may not have these prices exactly right but the point is the same)
WC is not at all in the trap of more expensive always better - he just stated something that completely disproves that allegation.
For the record, I don’t disagree about the insane value of the 3.7i. As I said, when I went through my speaker search I extensively auditioned (demo’d at dealers for at least a half-hour to hour each, sometimes multiple hours) over 20 different speakers under $10k msrp. I’d have to look back at my notes but I had the 3.7i as 3rd or 4th. Much better than some that were much more expensive, like Paradigm Persona and Bowers 804d3. That is consistent with WC saying it’ll beat many in its class. I settled on Spendor D7 (nearly exact same msrp as 3.7i), which for me were the best under $10k; I think I had Dynaudio 2nd and probably 3.7i third. It was 18-ish months ago. |
Is your room big enough for alexx? |
"For me, i feel that found the preamp that will continue to go forward with me in this journey and will only be sold if another preamp can come in here and beat it, but other than that i won't move out of it."
Now you're talking! And do same with Wilson's -- they gotta stay until something clearly beats them. Only way to keep moving on up, which is what I was suggesting in my first post a couple pages back (I know, hardly novel, but not strictly following has caused regressions from time to time).
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Ouch, the definitive Merrill smackdown to V. Not competitive with Boulder. Glad we got that "clarified."
I hope the next wishful recharacterization of WC’s assessments from V’s point of view is not that Paradigm is competitive with Wilson, but let’s see ...
Am curious about the Benchmark Luxman shootout yy mentions. Never a bad thing to look at inexpensive stuff and put it to the test. But keep in perspective and don't exaggerate results like some. If it's a great component at it's price point, like Merrill and lower cost ARC according to WC, that's awesome, full stop. Problem comes when wishful recharacterization ... |
Uh, ok???
I’ve never heard Neolith or Klipschorn but have never cared for the sound of any of the Klipsch speakers that I have heard (LaScala, Cornwall, Forte) so not sure what to say about that.
You will disagree but I say the DAW has better clarity than the 3.7i strait up, having heard them both in the same room. That is what I heard, in addition to being better at nearly every other facet. But WC doesn’t want us to spend time arguing about a 6k speaker vs a 30k speaker, so I will try to honor that request. |
viber,
Just a guess, but it seems clear from WC’s assessment that it is superior because, wait for it ........ because it SOUNDS BETTER! Yes, the sound quality is dramatically better -- "zero competition" according to WC, full stop.
No theory, no wishful thinking, no hopeful recharacterizations, just a straight up A/B test listening to them side by side -- which one sounds better? Doesn’t sound like it was close. When competitions are competitive, WC will typically describe the aspects in more detail, but here it sounds like it was the Globetrotters vs the Generals, men against boys.
Please don’t post in a few pages that the Vivaldi was competitive with the Boulder per WC as you tried to do with the Merrill but then were publicly smacked down by WC for the mischaracterization. He is making his determinations extra clear, ("zero competition") it seems, for your benefit so that you are not confused again.
It’s about sound quality, period. Not about particular nuances of sound quality that only you seem to feel are important above all else. Audiophiles just want the equipment that SOUNDS THE BEST, and that’s what WC tells us. Because he’s heard them and done the comparison, not because of theory or relying on reviews or other people’s impressions.
WC, could you compare the Boulder pre to the Ref 10, which for a long time (80 pages or so of this thread I think, maybe over half of it) was your preferred and favorite pre? I know you never had them at the same time, but whatever you can offer would be interesting as far as how they compare, thx |
Well we do have 168 pages of WC’s views on his interpretations of sound and what characteristics top sounding equipment exhibit. By now we should all know what he values, and if it was "zero competition" as he related, probably safe to assume Boulder whomped in all/most.
Like I said, when it’s competitive he will generally list pros and cons. Seems it wasn’t here. |
I think it is really that he would like to "change" WC and everyone else so that they view the universe of audio as he does. By continually repeating (at least 50 times I’m sure) the characteristics that he considers most important and why he is right and everyone else is wrong, he is either trying to convert or I guess defending himself.
Anyway, I hold no animus and don’t wish to start an argument, just wish to keep the thread on track which means WC comparing gear and then relating the results, without others providing annoying mischaracterizations or rationalizations about why WC must be wrong.
Nobody has to agree with WC or even value the same things he does. But it’s his thread and if you like other things than he does, then filter his conclusions appropriately -- just please don’t keep banging the rest of us over the head with your myopic views.
We get it, V likes clarity. That’s fine. Telling us once was enough. |
Esoteric knows how to do digital. That’s for sure.
I get the technology trickledown in the parent-co Teac nt-505, a budget $2k streamer/dac that is really good (dual mono, fully balanced, dual torroidal power supplies, full mqa, AKM4497, etc).
There’s a budget recommendation for those inclined - now back to regular programming |
V,
Your question: what does “sound better” mean? would be a solid question on any other thread, but on this 168 page thread, by now if you don’t know what WC’s (that’s what we’re talking about - his conclusions) sound quality parameters are, then you haven’t been paying attention. He has listed them hundreds of times - any time generally he does a detailed review or comparison; just search his posts and you’ll see.
“Zero competition,” “Sent packing” and “man’s job” are among strongest descriptions he’s ever used so obviously it “sounded better” across all of his parameters or he’d have enumerated the distinctions as he is wont to do when competitive.
Finally, I totally agree that many people value different sound characteristics. Indeed, that is a main thesis of your detractors: that no such thing as one size fits all.
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V,
You’re once again engaging in wishful recharacterization to bend WC’s descriptions to fit the fanciful narrative you’d like to see.
One problem.
WC hasn’t said the things you claim he has. He has gently admonished you now twice in the last page.
Please stop, and let WC’s assessments speak for themselves without adding your euphonic overlays, thereby sabotaging WC’s descriptive clarity.
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WC,
By now you’ve listened to a variety of equipment with a variety of cables.
Are you able to draw any general conclusions as to the relative importance, in terms of their relative ability to positively (or negatively) affect sound quality, of the three categories of power cables, speaker cables, and interconnects?
I know everyone has an opinion on this as to how the three rank 1-3 in terms of importance, and if you ask 100 people you might get about 33 each saying a different of the three is most important.
I’m just wondering if you’ve formed such an opinion by this point?
Not asking about specific brands necessarily, just moreso your general guidance as to the question of: If I want most sound improvement, start with ____ cables; next _____, and finally ______, based on your results.
Thanks!
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Impressive rating for the Gryphon!
Random thought while the DAWs are unplugged and we wait for them to return:
Is it just me or does the side profile of the Sasha DAWs remind anyone else of the Jawas from Star Wars episode IV? Ever since I saw the speaker I have thought that. Couldn’t remember what they were called (originally thought sand people) and had to look it up.
I’m pretty sure that I am the first to make this amazing discovery : )
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I like how you are keeping in mind the ratings you gave the previous amps when assigning current grade. That will be important for consistency of grading. And it’s fun to hear the comments comparing the amps |
if anyone is masquerading as you know who it’s techno (no offense techno if you are not the man under the mask at the end of a Scooby episode, hahaha.)
Post made purely in jest.
(But you’d have gotten away with it if not for those pesky kids!!!!)
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Ya, it’s so true. I love prime rib, and I insist it is “the best.” You love lobster and no matter how many times I tell you prime rib is better and you tell me lobster is better, we ain’t changing each other’s minds.
Then that weirdo over there keeps saying tofu and brussel sprouts are better than both prime rib and lobster, and dammit, even though they’re crazy, they’re still correct as to themselves and their messed up view.
But the hobby menu is full featured enough to serve all tastes! Thankfully for me, this thread’s specialty is prime rib!!
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My favorite aspect to the journey is that, from what I can tell from WC’s descriptions (and I’ve read whole thread), I share the same preferences as to sound quality that he does. So I don’t need to recalibrate his conclusions to fit my worldview. If he liked it, I figure I probably will and similarly if he didn’t. Of course that won’t be true for everyone.
That is probably also why I take such offense when others try to spin WC’s conclusions to fit a fanciful narrative that they would prefer, but which clouds WC’s output with euphonic overlays. |
I think V talking about Benchmark power amps shutting down, not Brnchmark preamps (correct me if that’s not right).
Wouldn’t think that concern would be a disqualifier of Benchmark pre |
I thought the Kstaken review was very well done. Honest, not preachy, admissive of likely a minority opinion but still true and committed to it, and most importantly borne of an actual head to head based on real (not imagined or theorized) ownership. Plus well written, which I appreciate.
Sounds like that benchmark could hit the mark for a segment of consumers and punches above its class. Great to know even if main thrust of thread is to higher end offerings.
No way that was Viber rechristened as Kstacken, not possible, and I trust Kstacken won’t post pages every fifth post hereafter beating us over the head if we don’t agree with his/her opinion. For the record, that was to draw a comparison; I hope Kstacken does post a lot more.
Viber is on a little break but I’m sure he’ll be back ... Although even in his absence he was dismissively backhanded by WC again just now for being a streetcorner pusher of Rane, GT, .... That’s probably not fair to GT but still made me chuckle......ah, good times....
If we’re taking requests, I’m still hoping for Alexx and top shelf ARC amp/pre but I’m patient and I think WC will eventually pass thru that town ....
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WC,
after you release the remaining bottom tier amp video you will have to let us know whether Viber’s amp was able to beat or at least compete with any of the bottom tier amps.
Your video made clear it couldn’t with the top tier |
Was out all day but just now seeing the BBQ Bob reference. I love blues and it's crazy how good some of his stuff was for now being nearly 100 years old. Some of the lyrics don't really pass the test of time but then again it's nearly 100 years ago and different world. Ah well, back to regular programming ... |
I thought the first recording was substantially better. Second one sounded veiled in comparison.
i made that assessment before seeing which was which. Better clarity on first recording |
Well let’s look at the evidence we have. WC apparently demo’d the GT speaker at a show with faxer right there to make sure it was set up properly. I think that speaker cost less or about the same as the 20.7, if I am correctly remembering the past shilling attempts.
When it came time to purchase one or the other, WC purchased the 20.7, for whatever reason.
For that matter, Viber who says he can afford anything discussed here and I have no reason to doubt that contention, has also not purchased the GT speaker despite demoing them and often praising them here, calling them in some cases the best speaker out there (or words to that effect).
I’ve not heard the speaker so I have no opinion on it, just don’t appreciate the much-too-often shilling for it here, and this is important, because it has never made an appearance in WC’s room. If he had instead selected it and posted videos or comments or whatever, that would be different. But the two who have heard it on this thread seem to have gone a different direction, for whatever that is worth.
And just to be clear, I'm not saying it is never appropriate to mention or suggest something WC hasn't yet tried - I've done it myself. But I don't post paragraphs and paragraphs over dozens of iterations in pursuit of that. I mention it once, figure if WC is interested he'll consider, and move on. |
