My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
Viber, TBH I was very surprised thay you and I were listening for the same sonic subtleties and in many instances going to similar parts of the music. But yes to me music either sounds alive or it doesn’t. Now granted we all hear a bit different so we might value one thing over another, but harmonics, natural sounding overtones, decay and spatial queues are part of what I listen for and am immediately drawn to. Above those how is separation? Is the soundstage deep and can I close my eyes and see each instrument in space? As I built my headphone system these last few months I especially paid attention to these areas including tonality which is the one area where to my ears DAC #2 has the advantage. It’s presentation is beautifully rich and quite vivid. Other things also come into play. Things like dynamics, speed, soundstage width/height etc...but you get the gist of what I’m saying. |
Song # 2 video #2 DAC #1’s elegantly nuanced and layered presentation beats DAC #2’s vividness and tonal richness. DAC #2’s palette of sound is too one dimensional for me. Where everything for Dac #2 seems to be vibrant primary colors, DAC #1 paints in all the primary colors, many hues and pastels plus delicate shades of grey. Coming into this I was expecting these amps to be similar in most regards with some difference in presentation. However to my ears comparing one directly against the other they actually perform markedly different. Scoreboard DAC #1 2 points - DAC #2 0 points |
Video 3 song #1 I’m quite familiar with this song as I have it in a tuning demo CD and have listened to it many times. DAC #1 does a very nice job of capturing subtle nuances with the music and the singer’s vocals. It better conveys the subtle emotional and ethereal qualities of the music’s presentation. DAC #2 is a bit too forward. Win for DAC #1 Scoreboard DAC #1 2.5 points DAC #2 0 points |
@thezaks Yes I noticed we saw this very differently. TBH I was expecting both DACs to sound similar to DAC 2 with some subtle but telling differences. Almost every MSB DAC presentaion I’ve heard has a tonal quality similar to DAC #2 with maybe a bit more delicacy and elegance at the edges, and a bit more refinement throughout the entire frequency range. EVERY dCS presentation I’ve heard including my time demoing the Bartok sounds like DAC #2. This shootout has caught me off guard and taught me a lot. |
Viber, When I used the term forward I am not referring to just HF. On song 1 video #3 I found that everything was placed closer to the front of the soundstage thru DAC #2 while DAC #1 had a bit more depth with everything recessed just a tad further back into the soundstage. To my ears the DAC #1 presentation was a bit more sophisticated and elegantly delicate. I also understand how many could prefer the more forward vivid presentation of DAC #2. The tonal richness it presents is quite inviting. |
Jay although the XLF’s are easy to drive, I think you may hear quite a lower end and midrange improvement as you move back up the ladder towards Mephisto. That extra power just grips the bass and allows for a more effortless overall presentation throughout the frequency range. I am very much looking forward to your comments video for thisbone. Thanks dood! 🤙 |
@kren0006 To my ears DAC #1 presents almost precisely like I’ve heard dCS. Therefore #2 must be MSB which surprises me. Tone wise the MSB that I’ve heard is richer and lusher sounding while sharing the other attributes I’ve described in this thread. To me dCS has always presented well in demos. Musical, with a tonally "chunky", (not thin sounding) presentation not lacking in detail. It’s quite nice. Which do you think is which? Based on your comments and my time with the Bartok, I think you would really enjoy it. To my ears it is just slightly less vivid than DAC #2 with the same type of tonal "chunkiness". The only thing that kept me from purchasing was the headphone amp which isn't up to the capabilities of the DAC. Good but not superb. At the price point the Bartok is quite good if you enjoy an organically denser style presentation vs super airy. As I remember it the streamer to my ears was also quite good and is also a Roon nucleus which many people like. |
Quick off topic post. Sunday I was surfing YouTube. One of my channels I follow posts movie soundtracks. It posted amongst others "Nobody does it better" By Carly Simon Wow! Immediate nostalgia. I love the Bond movies and no matter what Era you were born in you grew up with one of the Bonds. Carly’s voice sounded so pure I had to search for a great copy and after about 40 minutes found one on Qobuz. The best copy is actually from ’Bridget Jones edge of reason’ soundtrack. 🙌🙌🙌 Her live version is pretty good too. 👍 I listened to both versions at least 10-15 times over 2 days. Carly is such a natural talent. Her voice is so rich. That song is amazing. Memories... 🙂 That’s what this is all about. Tapping your foot. 🤙 Let’s cut the bickering. One member who contributed on this thread, @blumartini was lost to 2020. He’s gone forever. Life is too short. Let’s enjoy the music together while we can... 🤙 |
Jay, I didn’t know blumartini was your friend. Sorry for your loss bud. 2 years ago I lost a childhood friend who went to bed and didn’t wake up in the morning. Boom gone. I know how you feel. I didn’t know Blumartini personally, but on his threads he seemd like such a cool guy. A peacemaker. Always saw the big picture. Thanks blumartini for all your contributions here. RIP That could happen to anyone of us here. Too much hardship in 2020. Too much acrimony on this thread. Let’s make 2021 better than 2020 on Audiogon. |
Viber I want to apologize. In the past I've been quite demeaning towards you. Your constant lectures about zip cord and talks about treble and how that was so important to you that you use an EQ in your system. TBH because of that as well as your playing in a symphony I thought your hearing quite bad. Viber the deaf Doctor! lolz But on this thread how you picked up those nuances in DAC #1 was quite remarkable. It took me having a SOTA headphone system to do the what you do with your little headphones and PC. Wow... The only thing I ask is that you show more often the graciousness and humility you seem to be quite capable of. I saw your posts about your dad's system and wanting to give it to someone to enjoy. Your dad's own system. Who else here would do that? I know you are much better in real life than the person who posts here under your account. Please do your best to be that person more often. This thread would be much better for it. My apologies to you. |
Jay, Just some observations and small lessons I’ve learned in choosing a streamer earlier in the year. The #1 thing I learned in choosing a streamer was noise floor. It’s actually how I built my system previously starting at power cords and conditioning. Lower noise floor, more details, more air around instruments, better spatial sense during presentation etc... That ended up being why I bought the Aurender N20 myself. They leave Roon out of the equation for a reason. Noise. How Aurender implements everything is designed around lower noise floor and fidelity. Your Aurender is pretty SOTA. Aurender just came out with a new Halo product by the way. The N30 which is a 2 box solution that further isolates noise by separating power in a 2nd unit. https://youtu.be/bXQwkiSliT0 How much is the Taiko extreme? Just my thoughts on streamers.... |
Kren0006 1,421 posts06-23-2021 3:28am The points about life being short is a good one though, as has hit way too close to home for me recently. One of my very best friends was murdered senselessly about two months ago. Mid 40s, leaves wife and kids. Take advantage of every day and don’t take anything for granted. Never know when time will be up. WOW... So much evil we’ve seen this last year. Massive riots. Crime way up. I spoke to a friend of mine who had a childhood friend that just one day last year in 2020 decided to murder his mother. He lost his job and just went nuts during quarantine. |
@kren I have 2x Puritan Labs 156 in my system with a full loom of all their power cables. Absolutely no hum in my system and zero reduction in soundstage and dynamics in my 2 channel AND home theater systems. I have a BAT VK6200 which is 5x200 watts per channel and quite power hungry. The 156’s are pretty incredible. Not very pretty but to my ears they are pretty SOTA in terms of performance. EDIT I find the 156's to be reference neutral. No coloring of the sound whatsoever. |
Tha Rossini direct sounds quite good Jay. If a few of us lived near you there would be steak barbecues and beer every couple weeks with late night sessions of music. Viber would bring his favorite violin and scoff at at how lucky you all are to hear him play live for free. Ricevs would secretly try to put mods on your gear without you knowing. He would then ask you trick questions to see if you heard the difference. If you couldn't he would open up his very first Audiogon thread just to mock your hearing. Viber would then offer to teach you how to hear better. Kren would be pissed all night because Viber would eventually get too drunk to argue back with him. Kren would get even more pissed because all the chick's would think Viber must be some famous old dood who plays with Hanz Zimmer. Faxer would try to put food in his Hoodie pockets to take home and in between sessions secretly hand out flyers for his dealers next sale. Good times. Here's to blumartini and Almarq! 🍻🍻🍻 |
Pokey, The Puritan Labs 156 is much superior to plugging into the wall. My system is dead silent with no drop in soundstage thru either 2 channel or 5.1 HT. You live local to me. One day you can drop by and take a listen. Right now I'm looking for a new place so I'm pretty much only using my headphone system while I'm looking and kinda sorta semi packing stuff. |
"I think the Youtube limitations maybe constrain all of us on what we can hear in the videos (kinda goes without saying)." "WC, Interesting results - shows that our listening on youtube is definitely different than what you are hearing in the room." Kren and Zaks, It’s not YouTube that’s the bottleneck in what you are hearing, it’s the system you both are listening on. That’s one of the reaons Jay keeps asking you all to listen on headphones as well. Look at Viber’s comments. He’s 96 3/4 years old and still heard what Jay did. Go back and look at my notes on all 3 sessions. They were precisely the same as Jay’s. But that's also the reason we are here. To learn how to optimize each of our systems. 🙂 |
My my Kren, Just a simple question. What do you use to listen thru to give your impressions here? Viber listens thru his Mac. Viber what headphones do you use? His notes were extremely accurate. You've been making fun of him and criticizing him for months. We just had pages of discussions and arguments about how what Jay played sounded. 80% of the people listening to the video heard something completely different than what Jay did (tonality exluded-everyone got that right), you and Zaks included. All I ask is what you use that to hear what you did. Seems like a pretty natural thing to ask given what you thought you heard. Why so sensitive? This whole thread is about gear. What did you use to listen to the videos? |
jays_audio_lab OP4,196 posts06-24-2021 8:41pmYou’re correct but they also lose the smallest nuances and minute details that only solid state or class D can pick up. Jay that’s going to largely depend on what tubes you roll into a setup. I have both a Tube DAC (Modwright Oppo 205) and a Solid state/Tube Hybrid headphone amp (Pathos Inpol Ear). I heard everything you did (not really everything cuz you were live). BTW with bass the MSB also picked up subtle textural differences the dCS didn’t. IMO that was another thing that set it apart from the dCS. On tubes... Some are more Euphonic and warm while other can be drier and much more airy. There are all types of shades in between. Just like solid state amps, pre-amps and DACs. My headphone system tilts to reference neutral just to the musical vs dry side. The 75 Reflektor driver tubes in my Pathos and Modwright Oppo are very solid state like on speed and soundstage, great detail and airy all while having a very musical presentation. Not warm, just rich and musical. I also have some 60’s Siemens CCA grey shields which everyone regards as one of the holy grail of 6922 driver tubes. IMO the Refektors are better. Similar sound but the Reflektors do everything a bit better. I also have had some 60’s Telefunken 6dj8’s. They are warmer than both of the above. My 1971 Western Electric 422a rectifier is off the hook good. Simply an unbelievable rectifier tube. Rich, transparent with an unbelievable 3 dimensional soundstage. Sometimes the sound feels like it’s coming from outside my Utopias. What I mean to say by all this is just like in solid state you can build a tube setup that can sound just like how you want it to sound. Really rich and warm, to dry and airy detailed or anywhere in between. It just take lots of effort and some experimentation to find the right combinations. What tubes do much better than even the best solid state though is project instruments and vocals in 3 dimensional space. In this regard no solid state can touch what tubes do here. It’s absolutely magical when you get everything right. That’s what we all chase. I say all this as a 2 channel guy btw. I only bought my headphones in December 2020 for late night movie listening. No real intention to listen to lots of music with them. How good they initially were inspired me to buy more and more headphone gear- like you. How good my headphone rig has turned out to be has absolutely floored me. Truly reference. Unbelievable sound. Wow. We all continue to learn. It never stops unless you think you know everything. Then you stop learning. I’m going to take Pokey’s suggestion for the Aurender improvements and see what happens. I’ll report back after that gear breaks in. I’ll also consider Ricred’s suggestions too. |
Rbach126 posts06-25-2021 1:48pm@chazzzy007, You are a know-it-all. Lolz More soy... Do you even have a system? ROFL 😄😄😄 |
This was really a great thread for me. Just prior to this I’d been considering a DAC upgrade. MSB, the Tambaqui and Sound Designs MPD8 and Lampizator are on my radar. I’d actually eliminated dCS earlier for reasons other than performance. I am actually quite concerned with a how a new DAC’s tonal signature would affect my headphone listenin which I now do quite a bit of. I've learned headphones can get sibilant quickly with just subtle changes in the wrong direcrion. My Modwright Oppo with upgraded internal linear power supply performs quite well. I was never a big fan of the ESS 9308 Sabre Pro sound character. Thru the OG Oppo it was a little thin and dry. But utilizing the the synchronous Aurender connect that 12.9 mhz clock in the N20 changes the presentation of the ESS DAC quite a bit. With the power supply upgrade another jump. I am currently thinking about doing an MSB in house demo. Dat $$$ doe! Lolz Suggestions!?!?!? |
So much sensitivity and soy! Lolz 😄😄😄 Golfnuts, Zaks, and rbach. Kren not so much but a little. 😄 Not comparing anything. This is really the first huge DAX shootout and it generates lots of anticipation and interest. Lots of technical points made by many. There were massive descrepancies in what we all heard here. As I recall there were multiple posts about more detail on #2. To my ears that wasn’t anywhere near the case. Jay confirmed. There’s been months of criticism and ridicule of Viber. Some of it rightfully so. Viber please don’t comment so much on gear you’ve never heard my friend. Lolz 😄😄😄 So I ask this because tbh I was quite surprised at Viber’s being so right on with what he heard, because I though he was hard of hearing. Rofl. Seriously. Haha What he actually heard was quite subtle. That was impressive. In the same breath I casually ask what you listen thru and you all get bent out of shape. That’s quite odd especially on a gear thread, and especially when Kren just wrote several novels on his 2 channel system. Many of you were and are very quick to criticize Viber and together pile on and atrempt to bully him, but then won’t answer a simple question about what you listened thru. That’s weak. Viber what headphones do you use? I have 3 sets currently. Focal Utopias, Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro 32’s and Denon ah-d5000’s. The Denons are fun with lots of bass and and a pleasant sound signature. But for almost all of my listening I use the Utopias. Incredible headphones. Kren you would love the Bartok. It is a mini Rossini imo. Exact same sound signature with good detail. It’s a very pleasant DAC to listen to. I also have an S5 SHO. Love it! I also think a tube DAC would do well with a possible Wilson purchase. The Wilson’s towards a matter of fact presentation. Upstream richness in tonality helps them. I’ve hear Sabrina’s and Yvettes with AR tubes and a Luxman 900 amp/preamp, and even with them they sound a tad neutral dry. |
@zppr Thanks for that. I came so close to purchasing the Bartok before I went a different direction. I love the richness tubes add to my Modwright Oppo DAC. Such a rich beautiful presentation. I've read and heard the Tambaqui (not live) and although a strong performer, I think it might be too lean for my headphone system though not for 2 channel. Jay said something very important in his final video about DAC upgrades and about whether yoy are happy with what you have. That gives me pause... |
zaks, My response was to find out why we saw the differences in listening notes that we did. Viber heard very subtle nuances I didn't think he was capable of. I was shocked. Why couldn't you and Kren? That's why I asked about what you and Kren listen thru. Simple enough. Turns out Viber listens thru his Mac. I asked him what headphones. Simple questions. Viber didn't get upset when I asked. Take the chip off your shoulder. 2 pages before several of you were bullying Viber and the next page I ask what did you guys listen on and you get all insulted. On another forum I post on we regularly post our upstream components in order to help understand what's affecting what we might hear. Sheesh... Way too sensitive. Lolz 😄😄😄 |
jays_audio_lab OP4,200 posts06-23-2021 5:26pm@golfnutz: "What is your set up? What are you using to listen to the videos? Maybe i need to buy the same so i can hear things closer." For those who missed. A number of us are wondering why all the differences in what we heard including Jay. Don’t be so sensitive. |
Oh, and yes some of Viber’s post are crazy weird!!! Lolz 😄😄😄 But you know he’s been on this thread for years. Gotta give him that. Hes stuck in here despite all the criticism. RESPECT. Some of what he posts is also quite informative. His crazy stuff makes it tough to want to decipher which is which though. That’s too bad. ☹☹☹ |
bach128 posts06-25-2021 4:15pm"He doesn't get it and never will. Too bad for us." bach128 posts06-12-2021 9:08am"WTF ^ This is a thread you started. Guys are passionate about music and gear. You have to be able to take in the praise and accept the criticism. Like you say, no speaker or component is perfect or will suit everybody. Thick skin is called for here." I get it Karen. Check your soy levels. |
Kren, Yeah, Viber definitely doesn’t have a hearing a problem. I was reading this thread to catch up, and I came across the segment where Viber said he like to EQ his music to raise the treble. First thing I thought was he plays in an orchestra and thru the years lost hearing due to the high decibel levels. How close to deafness must he be? Lolz 😄😄😄 That stuff that he heard though is really hard to hear. I have a good headphone system and good 16-17 kHz hearing and I had to really listen. I was curious about why he heard what he heard vs what you heard which is why I asked what you used to listen. Viber uses a Mac plus simple headphones. I asked what kind. Waiting for his response. |
Jays_audio_lab OP4,200 posts06-25-2021 3:31pmIf you all are itching to burn cash, just send it my way instead of buying redundant stuff... I'll put it to better use in here ☺️ Says the guy who's bought and sold 2 million plus in gear. 😄😄😄 Props to what you do and for putting up with all of us in here bro. 🍻🍻🍻 |
Viber, So you were not even using headphones to listen to Jay's DAC videos? You were able to hear what you did over the stock speakers of the iMac??? Not long ago I watched a really good documentary on the evolution of the violin and the genius of some of the early makers like Stradivarius. Quite interesting. |
One of the aspects of that violin documentary was the tone chasing and how the age of the woods used made for tone and how Stradivari was just a genius in his violin making. The original violins makers and violinists were the original Gearheads in how they chased tone thru the making and purchasing/playing the best violins. They are our ancestors... 😄😄😄 |
Jay, I just saw the new video from today. The presentation of the Evo and Rossini is beautiful. So rich and warm. Recently these have been some of the very very best demonstrations of the ’Jay House sound’ you’ve been chasing since you started your journey. In another post you mentioned you thought the Evo sounded a bit ’dark’. Well it’s a bit warmer than some if the other amps in the Gryphon lineup but the tonal character is gorgeous. Superbly rich. Gryphon has shown it has so many ways to do tone right. Bravo! 👏👏👏 |
Vibee, Thanks for your post on the Violin and Stradivari. The chase for tone goes back centuries and we are part of Jay’s chase now. Musicians thru the centuries have always searched for their own particular house sound. Drummers also chase their own sound. Eddie Van Halen’s quest for tone was one that never ended. Listening to the first Van Halen album one would think, ’that’s it’s. His 'brown sound' is legendary amongst guitarists. But he continually changed what he was trying using new things and different parts in his gear. In a sense that’s Jay. You’d think that with everything he’s had in his home he’d be happy. But here we are today and he’s still chasing tone. Just like EVH. If anyone is interested here is the documentary I found so interesting. Stradivari and Guarneri. 2 of the original tone chasers. https://youtu.be/79-eaaKLsgU |
Greyhound, I’ve had tubes in my DAC for a few years but this year built a headphone rig. Long story short is that I never thought headphones could rival 2 channel listening. It does and tubes are a big part of that. Whenever I listen to my 2 channel system I think nothing is better, but when I listen to my headphone rig I don’t miss my 2 channel at all. Both do some things extremely well. One interesting aspect of this hobby is ’the gear’ and collecting it. Jay loves that and it’s cool to be part of his journey. Tubes are now a part of my journey and I’ve got a collection of 6922’s and 5u4g rectifiers that seem to be growing fast. Lolz RH67, Congrats on your new Vette! |
^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ IMO the the warmer Mephisto would be a better match with the XLF’s than the more neutral/dry Boulders. Personally I can’t wait to hear the MSB/XLF with the Antileon. I think the MSB is going to match quite well with the Antileon sound signature. I think it will give the MSB a bit more of the tonal richness that we all heard thru the Rossini in the shootout. |
Very honest post above Jay. Thank you... 👏👏👏 TBH, I think as you get a better feel for the XLF's you'll get them super dialed in and we'll really hear them sing. That setup syatwm they have seems pretty sophisticated so it may take some time. In the setup I hear them in they are magical. Very analog sounding with no hint of edges or glare and what I've described as an effortless presentation. Everything in that system though is set up to make those Alexandrias sound their best. Be patient and take your time. I think you'll find it's worth it. 🤙 Just an fyi, as I've been posting the last few hours, I've done so while enjoying a listening session I just can't seem to pull myself away from. Cheers... 🍻🍻🍻 |
The Constellation/Rossini combo sounds quite good. Very natural but also tonally rich. I went back and listened to the Evo video again after the Constellation video. There is just something about the Evo’s presentation that is so luscious that it makes me want to hear more. Jay there was one thing about the Constellation video. The flute at the end was on the verge of sibilance in my headphone system. TBH I’ve never heard a flute being sibilant. The bullets maybe? Are they exaggerating the highs a bit much? Do you really need them in this kind of revealing speaker? Food for thought. Thanks for sharing these tidbits and tweaks. I find them just as interesting as the shootouts bud... 🍻🍻🍻 |
