My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

Hello Wcss, my own experience with one of the REF10's predecessors, the REF3, is that the 6550 in the power supply, regardless of brand, needed to be replaced every 1K hours or so.... At least on REF3, ARC drove the rectifier very hard, and after some 900 hours, it started to sag and the amps tone became progressively warmer, fuzzy, and sloshy.

Saluti, G.

Hi WCSS, my own staging experience with the Rowland M925 seems quite different from yours, and more in synch from what I have heard reported from other long term M925 users....

my listening room is 19.5 feet wide by 24 feet deep, and has a further extension of 10x10 feet behhind the couch.

My DIe Muzik speakers are about 11 feet apart along the 19.7 ft wall. My ears are perhaps 12 feet in front of the speakers. The M925 amps generate a virtual stage that exceeds comfortably the 19.5 ft span of that side of the room. I listen only to purely acoustic non-amplified/pre-processed  instruments and vocalists. Stage usually starts some two feet in front of speaker drivers, and extends behind them with a depth that is very much dependent on the recording.... Perhaps from 12 to well over 100 feet.

Note that I am not using a preamplifier.... I am driving directly the amps with the Rowland Aeris DAC, powered by the Rowland ultra-capacitor-based Power Storage unit (PSU). If you have the opportunity, it might be worth giving the Aeris+PSU combo a try.

With the pair of M535 bridged amps, the overall stage size seems about 80% of what M925 generates.

Granted, I am not perceiving a stage that reaches behind my listening position, but what these amps create is deliciously and distinctly three-dimensional in my system.

Saluti, Guido

Hello WCSS, I understand your position about M925 perfectly... As much as I deem M535 to be fantastic, particularly at their ridiculous price point, they are edged by M925s.... Perhaps with the exception of M535 feeling even more open than the big guys.

The other Rowland piece that might be fascinating trying out (would love to try it out myself) is the Daemon superintegrated.... Problem is though that it might be very difficult to find one on the pre-owned market 

I am very much looking forward to reading your impression of the Musical Fidelity Titan..... I have listened to a large amp from that brand at RMAF a few years ago, but at the time I was a little underwhelmed... I had found the overall presentation to sound dark and hollow.... But who know what was the component or brand responsible for the issues that I prceived.... Amp, preamp, source, speakers, cables? Probably the medium size hall was blameless in this case.... I had heard other systems in the same room that sounded fine.

Saluti, Guido

Hello WCSS, actually at shows manufacturers tend to borrow equipment from one another, or partner for the use of a suite or room.... The more common issue IMO is that they tend to bring in components and cables that are factory fresh.... Result is that things start often to sound reasonably musical only on the last day of the show.... Perhaps this is one of the reasons why I found Musical Fidelity, and in fact Dagostino, not satisfying.

Conversely, for whatever reason, ARC, VTL, Soulution, YG/Mola Mola, Vienna Acoustics, Luxman/Vivid, Wilson, Shunyata, Cardas, Nordost, Rowland, GamuT, and Bel Canto were invariably real treats!

Admittedly, this might have to do more with my idiosyncratic ideal tone concept than for any inherent defects in the many room that did not touch my audiophilic heart.

G.

Thezacks++++++

Grey, there is  a fine line between expressing one's views and harping... You made your point clearly and unambiguously.... Time to move all back onto the core topic of this fine watering hole of our shared obsession.

Regards, G.

  I love the additional openness, but others might prefer a smidgeon more conservative treble.

Worth pointing out that the enhanced openness of M535 does not imply a hump or overpressure in the treble, but a slight enhancement of very low level detail in that region.

I venture to suspect that if WCSS were ever grooveed up in giving M535 a try, a bridged pair might be more indicated than a single stereo unit, his speakers enjoying high power, and WCSS  listening often at high SPL, which a bridged pair would deliver without battin n "ear" :)

Saluti, and a Happy New Year to our gang gathered around WCSS great audio watering hole!

G.

Hello WCSS, I had also found a common theme in the house sound of Luxman and Rowland, in spite that the two companies are using different technologies.

I am looking forward to your side-by-side experience of Block Audio and M925.... As for M535, there are a couple of Rowland dealers in Florida worth contacting when the time is right for you.

Saluti, Guido

Hello WCSS, I'd but, as you probably imagine, the Rowland M925 at my personal top, with M535 closely behind it....

I know what you are saying about an amps ability of conveying the "feeling of the music"..... Because this is exactly what M925 and M535 do for me....

Let me elaborate a little..... Mere precision in the rendering of the audible frequency band and reasonably low distortion conveys the nutshell of the music, but might in itself be insufficient to move us emotionally... We might find the system to sound somewhat unemotional.... WHere the emotionality of the component may come in is in its ability of reproducing extremely fine detail in the music, as well in the extra musical information.... THus vibrato in strings, articulation of harmonics and enharmonics in cymbals, fret work in electric guitars and plucked basses, sound of the mechanics in a piano, the subvocalizations and breathing patterns of a performer.... At some point we are transported into the world of the performer.... We hear the music from the inside of the music makers.... We seem to grok the intentions of what the composer "heard" in their mind, and what the performer has grokked of that musical thought, and their success of transfering those wordless ideas into the live performance..... Yes, this is rare enough an experience, and I have not heard it in too many systems.

Some rare amps, like M925 and M535 seem to go beyond this... They can  uncover a deeper layer.... The layer of what the performer and sometimes the author are conveying unintentionally... Details in the sound they produce that may be a deeper layer of revelation of their passion, or even their hesitations and their misgivings..... You can hear this in very small details of note attacks and decays, where a finger might be barely trembling in hesitation, or instead the highlight of a harmonic structure that reveals to us that the pianist or the vocalist have intuit a new implication in the structure or subtext of the piece.... M925, and M535 in a subtly different way, all give me these.

Here are some quotes by the conductor and music educator Benjamin Zander.... He  summarizes these ideas very powerfully during his master classes to his top music performance students:

"It isn’t how he’s playing, it is how he is being"

"Don’t play the cello as an instrument, play the cello as something to be with."

“Perfection is great, but is not enough… Give it everything you got… And then watch the ripples!”

Benjamin Zander

[On YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1_KOJ8h9qY]

If an audio component can offer us  what Zander is saying, regardless of the type of music that we enjoy listening to, we might be on the right track.... M535 and M925 do it for me. 

Saluti, G.

Hope this helps, G.

Hello Dave, you are absolutely correct.... Fact is that things are even a little bit more complicated than that... There are very often intermodulative artifacts that crop up somewhere in the recording or reproduction chain which can mask as treble energy or brilliance, or even transient toe-tapping speed... They can often be detected for what these distortive artifacts really are as hardness or even harshness in certain complex chords, such as sevenths, ninths, augmented fourths, and so on

So, the answer is... "Tis a reall mess *Grins!*

G.

.

Hello Pokey, I am a dinosaur... Meaning that I do not have Tidal or other internet-based music service.

But if you PM me with the list of performances available on Tidal, including conductor, orchestra, label, and year of recording, I should be able to post here some of the most worthy candidates.

I have a version conducted by Kubelik.... Musically and dynamically excellent, but being an old recording, its detail may not be up to the most modern standard.

In general, recordings that I would expect to have top musical quality would include at least performances by Claudio Abbado, Leonard Bernstein, Pierre Boulez (old, but considered an interpretation standard for this work), Riccardo Chailly... Do not bother with performances conducted by Stravinsky himself... Old Igor was a composing genius, but as a conductor he was somewhat analytical.

Saluti, Guido

Hello WC, your upcoming shootout sounds exciting... If I might make a suggestions.... Why don't you also add a couple or three of your own selections that each of your friends must also listen to.... That would add a common source material baseline for them to evaluate, in addition to their own test tracks.

Can't wait for your post- shootout findings!

Saluti, Guido

I would not want to make an absolute statement about the benefit or disadvantage of eliminating the linestage from the audio chain.... It all depends on the DAC, the linestage, the ICs, the power chords, and ultimately... The tone concept of the listener.

So, I would not say that a linestage is always an audible requirement, nor would I assert that one particular DAC is THE ONLY DAC for which a linestage is not beneficial.

For instance, I have sold my beloved Rowland Criterion two-chassis linestage a couple years ago, and since then have been happily driving the M925 amps directly from the Roland Aeris DAC + PSU. I feel no reduction of authority, attenuation of transients, dampening of harmonics, flattening of sound stage, reduction of resolution, or increase of intermodulation... On the contrary.

On the other hand, the original presence of the linestage in the chain did yield an overall presentation which was just very slightly softer, and perhaps euphonic, which for many users might have been preferable... So, as usual, it all depends.

Besides, in the future, I might very well decide to reinsert a linestage.... One never knows what the future brings.

Guido

""Guido’s comments are specific to the Rowland products he was using. The result showed the shortcomings of that line stage, extra IC, PC. My experience has shown very different results."

Not quite.... I would not want to venture that there were problems in the preamp that I had.... There is really no right and no wrong in having or not having a linestage.... There are so many variables involved that it is not even funny.... Eventually, the only thing that matters is the preference of the individual user for the particular setup, in the particular room, for the particular music selection.

I much prefer to avoid absolutes or commenting on equipment that I have not used. It is much more interesting to report and explain our own experiences in detail... Inevitably they will differ in perception, tone concept, and music preferences... Sometimes subtly different, and sometimes radically diverging. <span lang="fr">Vive la difference!!!!</span>

G.

shannere ++++++++++++!!!!!!!!

G.

Considering the power-happyness of WC's speakers, I would rather recommend that if WC decides to try out the Rowland M535, he opts for a bridged pair instead.... As I already mentioned a few times, I have a bridged pair in my system that drive the somewhat wilding Vienna Die Muzik, and results are stunning.... Talk about bass control, holographic resolution/staging, frequency extension, free of intermodulation distortion, and yes.... Sheer immersiveness and emotionality!

To my ears  the critters make magic.

Saluti, G.

Hello @Mitch2, 

Sent you a PM so we can chat directly about M535.

Meantime… you are correct…. M535 does sport the Pascal S-Pro2 module. You are also correct about the EMI filter and large bank of capacitors…. These are not the only internal differences…. For M535, Rowland has adopted in the input stage the same large Lundahl transformers that he used in the higher end M625 S2 and M725 S2 in order to enhance common mode noise rejection, and like M625 S2 and M725 S2, M535 circuit components are mounted on multilayer Roger ceramic boards.

As I mentioned, my own speakers have a bit of a wild impedance curve…. I believe that in some frequencies they might be dipping down to the 3Ohm load range…. But what I am finding is that the M535 grips them powerfully and so tunefully from the lowest bass to the high treble… I have been playing a lot of large scale works for organ, orchestra, as well as some Krall and other vocalists, and chamber music with double bass….

What I find to be part of their magic in addition of what I already mentioned is the fabulous pitching of bass lines…. I am not getting the dreaded fuzzy unpitched bass that Die Muzik tend to deliver if amps can’t control their bass drivers, nor the cardboardy bass generated by overcontrolling amps… I consistently hear a very clean foundational bass…. Which, by the way, is also harmonically exciting.

I was also concerned that performance in bridged mode would be compromised…. But my worry was unfounded…. These babies approach the performance of my big Rowland M925 monos.

One musical selection that simply stunned me yesterday is the slow section of Rachmaninof’s first Symphonic Dance for 2 pianos played by Ax and Bromfman on a Sony CD: the spatial holography, realism,  and sheer emotionality was jaw-dropping.

For mono operation, you do not use the stereo inputs and output connectors at all… M535 have a dedicated XLR input, as well as a dedicated output terminal… Then you just flip a toggle switch on the back panel to enable mono operations…. Jeff told me that he implemented these ergonomic features for mono users because he is confident that he has achieved bridged performance that equals stereo mode.

What speakers will you be driving?

But I do not want to derail this fine thread of WC’s… I sent you a PM with my direct contact info… I’ll be happy to tell you much more about my adventure with these little marvels via email or phone, including what I found out about those specs.

Saluti, G.

Hello Viber, I will start to report any differences that I experieince between M535 in bridged mode and in stereo mode as soon as I connect a unit in stereo mode. Until now I have used a pair of M535 in bridged mode only.

Per what Mr. Rowland has told me, there is no musical degradation with M535 in bridged mode.... And that is why he implemented the bridging usability features I mentioned in my last post.

But, proof is as always in the pudding.... Thus I will report on my own eventual bridged vs stereo findings, and much prefer not to judge things a priori.

Similarly, I will not attempt to crystalball whether a hypothetical amp not yet released and that I have not listened to, based on GaN transistors, may eventually be preferable/same/worse/similar/different from an amp that I am intimately familiar with.

Whether or not a user may prefer a M535 bridge pair or a single stereo unit depends mostly on the particular requirement and listening preferences of the user, rather than on some prejudged percentage of users who "will" prefer one form or another. What is true instead is that if a user commenced with a single unit, and later decides that he/she might want greater authority/stage/imaging, they can add a second chassis and that reconfiguration is a breeze.

G.

If I understand WC’s passion for energetic music correctly, he might like something a little wilder than Prokofiev’s relatively tame Classical Symphony... Why not plunge directly into the quaking fires of The Rite Of Spring, by Igor Stravinsky... Don’t expect gushing romantic melodies here, folks.... This is a real tembler of a piece of music... Usually played by a giant orchestra with at least 113 members. Just be patient for the first three tame minutes or so, and then the chest-punching syncopating rythms start... Intoxicating, at least for me... Sure won’t be able to fall asleep with this here baby earthquake playing on the Neos *GGrins!*

Many excellent performances out there.... I suggest Pierre Boulez: one of the firyest I ever heard... Talk about unrelinting timing, pace, and rythm!

My negative recommendations for WC would be the recordings conducted by Igor stravinsky himself or Alfred Cortot.... Too matter of fact the former, and a little too slow the latter. I would also not recommend for WC Herbert von Karajan, which is on the lush romantic side.

Of course, WC might dislike The Right Of Spring all together... And there would be nothing wrong with that.

Saluti, G.

dguitarnut, you have a point. Here is the recording of the Rite of Spring that I am planning to get for my birthday... 'Tis about time, actually:

Claudio Abbado and the Los Angeles Symphony Orchestra:

https://www.amazon.com/Stravinsky-Rite-Spring-Abbado-Lso/dp/B002GKRT8S

You can sample it on Youtube at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRyd5zR_3Bc

As fine a performance as my old Antal Dorati CD is -- sorry, my mention of Rafeal Kubelik was a brain fart, it pales compared to the sonics and sheer emotional impact of the Abbado recording. For historical purposes, here is the ancient Dorati

https://www.amazon.com/Stravinsky-Printemps-Spring-Dorati-Conductor/dp/B001HRUWGM

Regards, Guido

Viber, I have some experience with Esoteric single box players, up to and including K-01... I have no experience on K-01X and K1.

At RMAF I have had long listening session comparing X-05, X-03, and various versions of X-01... In most cases, the analog output of the devices were used. Similarly, still at RMAF, I have listened to K-03 and K-01 side by side. Consistently, I found X-03 to be preferable to X-05, the X-01 variants to be preferable to X-03, and K-01 to be preferable to K-03 (more complex, musical, subtle, stagy, etc. In my own system I have had my current X-01 LTd side by side with K-01.... I have much preferred K-01 over X-01, using K-01's apodizing filter S_dly2 and 4X upsampling for what was for me an optimum balance of audible characteristics. My experience with Esoteric K-01 are summerized at:

<http://positive-feedback.com/Issue64/awards.htm>;

There are third party user reports according to which the performance consistently has continue to rise with K-01X and then K1. If you want to read a significant number of credible user reports on K1 you may want to visit audioaficionado.org... The founder is to be a strong brand ambassador of Esoteric, and has considerable experience.

Unfortunately I have never used the inputs of the Esoteric DAC stages, so I would not want to venture any uncautious guesses as of their individual merits. On the other hand, I am still using X-01 as a digital transport into my Rowland Aeris DAC using a Cardas Clear digital coax... And love the result!

Saluti, Guido

Hello Viber.... Aeris DAC is superior to the DAC component of X-01 Ltd.... Aeris powered by PSU is very significantly superior to the X-01 DAC section for all parameters I can think of.

Having said the above, it is worth considering that the X-01 was designed around 2004.... Aeris DAC was designed some 6 or 7 year later as a then State-of-the-art PCM DAC.... And the PSU external Ultra-caps-based power supply is much more recent than that.... So, while I infinitely prefer my combo of Aeris+PSU to the X-01 built in DAC, the comparison is not particularly useful.

Saluti, GUido

Hello WC, Keep us posted about how Odin develops.... Sounds exciting!

As I mentioned a couple times, I have found nirvana with the Cardas Clear Beyond XL... Totally in love with this PC... Nordost Odin and Cardas XL are, with not too many other PCs, situated on the top rung of the power cord pantheon... Might worth trying XL out as well if you have the .

Saluti, Guido

Hello WC, Have you taken home an Odin V1 or V2?

Concerning mushiness, I have not listened to Frey 2 yet... but my home experience with Valhalla V2 and several long listening sessions with Odin V1 at RMAF has been that the latter two cables and mushy wires are critters from different planets entirely.

Saluti, G.

Hello WhiteCamaroSS, I premise that I have not had the opportunity of listening to the Bel Canto REF600 yet

Bel Canto Ref600 is a basic implementation of the entry level NCore NC500 power conversion module and the unregulated NCore NC/1200/700 SMPS in a mono configuration.... What Bel Canto seems to have added to the basic module-in-a-box is their own signal imput stage to raise the balanced input impedance and reduce common mode noise.

This is a similar approach to the lovely Merrill Teranis stereo amp, which I evaluated a couple years ago.... As nice as Teranis was at its real-world $2500 price point, in my system it had a tendency of showing traces of congestion in loud/complex passages, and so fell well short of the excellent performance that I found in my system with the Merrill Veritas monos which are based instead on the full-blown NCore-1200 modules. In turn, Veritas performance is perceivably below the Rowland M925 monos that you and I are quite familiar with.

Furthermore, a couple of years ago, a friend of mine tested extensively in his own system REF600, Veritas, and the Rowland Continuum S2 integrated. He found Veritas to exceed comfortably the performance of REF600, but in the end he purchased the Rowland Continuum S2 integrated, because he preferred the amplification section of CS2 over Veritas. I am quite familiar with CS2, and I do like it very much.... However, it does not achieve the performance of M925.

My guess is that REF600 performance might fit somewhere between the Teranis stereo and the Veritas monos.... I am conjecturing that the Bel Canto might be a little closer to Teranis than to Veritas.

M535 is far from being a simple module-in-a-box amp implementation. Not that this really matters one way or another.... What matters is what the critter does for living... My extended experience with M535 in bridged mode, which I have had in my system running since last October and is fully broken in, and particularly after the application of a recently developed phase locking slip-on, is that its performance grazes M925 territory, an amp that both you and I love.

If I were to venture a performance order from lowest to highest based on the above, I would list amps in the following order.... Teranis, REF600, Veritas, Continuum S2 (amplification section), M535 bridged, M925.

So, while the above is admittedly somewhat indirect, it does never the less leave me scratching my head about the observations of your source on M535 bridged performance. BTW, Bridged M535 in the US are rare critters... While pairs have been playeing at audio shows, I know of only two extant pairs in the wild... One of them is in my own home. Has your source had significant experience with bridged M535?

Saluti, Guido

I propose a Group 3.... Title it "It Depends!"

While the hypothesis in group 2 is sound, it is possible that at some point you might find a smaller/cheaper pair of speakers which, for whatever reason, you will enjoy more than the Neos... Do I have a candidate for you right now? ... Sorry, no!

G.

Hello WC, like you, I cannot evaluate properly the behavior of a system solely based on someone else's music genre and tracks.

As I have attended more than a handful of RMAF shows, I have always been equipped with my own homegrown CD sampler. Not because the tracks I brought along are spectacularly recorded -- which in some cases they are not, but because I know intimately their ability to expose a system's  rendering of fine detail, as well as any distortive quirks.

In 95% of cases, exhibitors have been more than accomodating in spinning any of my CD tracks, as well as selections from CDs and USB sticks of other visitors... Very seldom I found a system to be completely locked into the exhibitor's library. Granted, in recent times I would be likely to find a number of suites that do not have a CD spinner, So I would want to rip my test tracks onto a USB stick for loading onto the local server.

Saluti, G.

Hmmm.... Did you mean 180 deegrees perhaps? Far as I know, a 360 degrees turn takes you back to your original direction.

G.

Assuming that the pair of Rowland M535 bridgable amps that WC will receive are not fully broken in, they won't yield their best until they are fully broken in... I found in my own system that some 700 hours are required.

Furthermore, for best results in bridged mode, WC should source a pair of the new slip-on capacitors for the output terminals from the Rowland factory... IMO they yield a marked enhancement to what is already the considerable clarity of M535.

The units that WC will receive should have a printed manual in each carton... WC, if they do not, let me know, and I will send you an electronic copy.

In particular, the manual will show the position of the stereo/bridged toggle to be used for bridged operation, as well as which of the three XLR input connectors to used in bridged mode.... M535 has no RCA inputs. 

For historical reasons, what the manual does not mention is the use of the slip-on capacitors for the Cardas output terminals... I'll be happy to send WC some instructions on how best to mount them... And just in case anyone were wondering, the thingies are ONLY for bridged ops, and must never be used in stereo mode.

Saluti, G.

Hello WC, throughout M535 break-in, you can expect "muscularity" and authority to increase gradually... And the sound stage will expand in width and depth... Expect also to hear more detail of individual instruments and human voices, as well as pitched clarity in the bass region. The current behavior of your pair matches pretty well what I have experienced in the verry early break-in stages of my own pair.

BTW, have you contacted the factory about getting the slip-on output capacitors for bridged mode?

Saluti, G.

Hello MRD, I concur with you that historically a lot of class D amplifiers did sound "dry and analytical", and that is using kind words for what they did.

If M535 were even remotely dry, analytical, Hi-fFiish, and emotionally sterile, I would not have kept them in my system for the last six months, and waxed poetic on these pages about the music they produce.

Granted, I do not listen to the same genre as WC does, my preference being more towards classical, ranging from the very large orchestral works of Mahler and Stravinsky with their huge dynamic swings, all the way down to single acoustic instruments and solo voices.

What I seek is both extreme subtlety and huge dynamics... Ability to expose minute harmonics from deep bass to high treble, tiny fluctuations in microdynamics as well as supreme authority in macrodynamics without ever breaking a sweat... Give me goose-bumps during the interplay of female voice and flugelhorn in Cohen’s Aleluia as well as during the firy end of Stravinsky’s rite Of Spring.

I have no idea what kind of decibel levl I achieve... I typically keep the volume at levels that I deem commensurate to what I would perceive in concert hall from a sitting position consistent with the virtual stage and images being produced... And all of this without M535 ever introducing the jarring destructive effect of audible intermodulation.

In my system, M535 do create pure efforteless magic driving the Vienna Die Muzik speakers... 900W per channel with a peak current of 30A that never fail to transport me into the music, emotions and brain alike... I can’t resist toe-tapping, subvocalizing bass llines, "conducting", seeing the kaleydoscopic images produced by synesthesia, and all of this while sinking in my listening couch and forgetting where I am.

Will WC like M535 at all? No idea... But I am confident that he will evaluate them without the tainting of preconceived biases that often accompany class of operation, physical size, or retail price.

Saluti, G.

Hello WC, sorry... I thought you were going to use a pair of M535 in bridged mode instead of a single unit in Stereo mode.

My enthusiastic comments about M535 behavior pertain to a bridged pair with at least 700 hours on them, and the additional capacitors slipped onto the output terminals.

There is a very marked difference in performance between a single M535 and a well broken in pair.

For one thing, even after complete break-in, a single chassis in my system produces a stage which does not exceed the outer edges of my speakers (about 9.5 feet)... Conversely, a bridged pair under the same condition appears to generate a stage which reaches beyond the width of my entire listening room (19.5 feet). In terms of power/authority, while a bridged pair seems to yield endless power/authority, a single chassis approaches its limits on very complex and demanding passages, such as Mahler symphonies, Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, or Rachmaninof's Symphonic Dances performed on two pianos by Ax and Bromfman.

.

The difference extends to all other parameters.... Resolution, transparency, harmonic detail, image sizes, authority, and that very subjective feeling of being immersed in a musical nirvana.

 And if a stereo unit is still into its break-in infancy... Well, you can just imagine how restricted/congested everything still is. As usual, patience is golden, if admittedly tedious.

Hello MRD, yes of course... Would love to chat about sound, music, "the universe, and everything" *Grins!* I'll send you a PM!

Saluti, G.

Thank you for the additional feedback WC... M535 sounding a little artificial points to the device not being broken in yet... There is nothing artificial or weak with my bridged pair... After some 60 years of acoustic music making and listening live, I have grown pretty demanding on equipment performance... Granted, I am also unhurriedly patient in nursing components to full bloom.

BTW, I power my system with Cardas Clear Beyond XL PCS, including M925 and M535. XLRs and speaker wires are Cardas Clear Reflection, and digital coax is Cardas Clear (Cardas's top of the line for digital coax).... Amazing set of wires. Incredibly synergistic with my electronics and my speakers... The whole generates the musical magic that I seek, and am happily experiencing.

PS. Hello MrD, I sent you a PM... Check your inbox.

G.

Hi WC, thank you for your notes on the Rowland M535 in stereo mode. I am not surprised that a single M535 chassis with its 250W per side might not be a best match for your demanding Martin Logan Neoliths… Similarly, a single M535 falls a little short of ideal for my Vienna Die Muzik… A sheer matter of power, regardless of the extensive break-in that I afforded the amp. As I may have mentioned, and also you observed, a single M535 does a good job at yielding a stage that spans the virtual space between the speakers (about 9.5 feet apart in my case), however the stage does not exceed the outer boundaries of our demanding speaker pairs, and image sizes seemed to me a little shy of ideal. Furthermore, while the stereo unit never struggles, its authority seems to approach its upper limit on Die Muzik… Different story with a bridged pair, where in my case the stage appears to exceed the 19.5 with of my listening space, and the virtual image of a grand piano has a size congruent with a living instrument. On the other end, the patient break-in of your single unit would at least reveal the kind of organic glow that the amp is able to generate… No, not three years…. But extending break-in for a few weeks would show you what the stereo amp amp is capable of exposing of the intimate structure of the music… Dry is hardly an attribute that I would ever associate with this device.

Yet, the stereo unit will always fall far short of the sheer magic of a bridged pair. As KLH has pointed out, my own assessment of M535 as a reference piece is not of a single stereo unit, but concerns a bridged pair enhanced by the slip-on caps, where 900W per side and a 30A power supply in each chassis make all limitations outline above disappear, and the performance does graze M925 territory. By contrast, a single M535 does not approach the performance of M925 monos, as much as some participant of this thread ardently hopes for.  Thus I hope that you will be eventually able to reinsert M535 into your system, and obtain a second unit for bridged operations, and bring the pair to full bloom.   

I confess that I have had in my system but a risible fraction of the number of amps that you have experimented with. On the other hand, my tonal reference might be slightly different from yours, in that it is not based on a particular class of operation, nor a particular brand or amplifier model. Rather, my reference is the sound of live unamplified instruments, the perception of the intentionality of the performers, their deliberate interpretation as well as their unintended flaws, not to ignore those residual extra-musical cues which hopefully a top system may allow to emerge. Besides the living performances I have attended on both sides of the Pond, my live models are those instruments which I have dabbled with at one time or another, or I am still fiddling with, such as piano, harpsichord, pipe organ, baroque recorders (piccolo, soprano, alto, and tenor), flute, Bb trumpet, short Bb cornet, Eb cornet, flugelhorn, and euphonium… Cello instead I do not play, just coached for some 12 years. So, my perspective, right or wrong that it might  be, may be a little different from yours.

IMO, seeking a literal reproduction of live acoustic music may be a fruitless endeavor… What might be realistic instead is to achieve a form of augmented reality whose perspective is somehow congruent with the live experience, and yet different from it… No, I won’t expand further on this subject in this thread… This is WC’s sandbox after all.

I should point out though, that rather than “getting used” to certain amps, I have found that a very small number of amps, such as the Rowland M925 monos and the bridged M535, yield what I am looking for.

This does not imply that there are no other amps or brands which fit my model. Over the years, I have auditioned a handful of brands of amps at home or at RMAF which, using a variety of technologies, also yield exactly or almost exactly what I aim to... I never had to "get used" to them... It has always been love at first sight... Or, I should say, "first sound!"

The one which as delighted me most at RMAF, and which in fact has taken my breath away, is Soulution… They generate a musical environment that matches my tone concept 100%. I should add DartZeel and Luxman as reference-level SS brands which I have found almost as enchanting. Other SS amps, well… not so much.

Moving to tubes, every time I listened to ARC reference series tube amplifiers I also felt that they were matching closely my musical ideas, if perhaps a smidgeon less than Soulution… And equally delightful were the VTL Siegfried and 450 monos.

In the current class D domain, the Merrill Element 118 are IMO amps to watch closely… I had the honor of having a yet incomplete prototype pair in my own system – sadly only for a few days last year… Except for some slight excesses in the treble which were likely an artifact of incomplete break-in, they did create an incredible immersive experience, which was, like the examples cited above, an immersive hyperreality consistent with unamplified live music. Do not think for a moment that if you are familiar with the lovely Veritas you already have a significant idea of Element 118… The latter is a very different and much superior beast.

Regards, Guido

PS. Apologies for the long post.

Hello friend MrD, no worries, you and I concur... Besides, you are a true gent!

Saluti, Guido

Hello riaa, sorry I had missed your post... I admit 'tis a real beauty, a gem in the art of purple prose. I too sometimes regret the abscence of "ignore" buttons... On the other hand, were I to "ignore" your contributions, I would deprive myself the pleasure of chuckling at your ascerbic verve... A real loss *Grins!*

To MrD, There are doubtless multiple perspectives on ideal tone.... There are amplified music buffs, acoustic music fans, classicists and jazzers and rockers, string players, brassophiles, 4th row sitters and 20th row aficionados... Everyone seeking their own special version of the "True Truth" in sound... Provided we acknowledge and embrace the relativity of what is "best", I am happy, even though I sit on a minority bench of this audiophrenic congress.

to WC, what is the size of your garage and future listening room? Hope you will add a liberal number of 20A circuits, and may be a couple or three 30A circuits as well. Hope you won't have to trade in the Neos... Those lovelies may be hard to follow.

Saluti,

Guido (Sarducci)

Hello V6, the relative closeness of M925 with M535 is exclusively something which I experienced with a bridged pair of M535 enhanced with the slip-on caps on the output terminals.

I must reiterate that in my own system, the performance of my well broken in pair of M925 monos, feeding Vienna Die Muzik via Cardas Clear Reflection speaker wires, comfortably exceeds the capabilities of a single M535 amp. , as much as the M535 in stereo mode remains a wonderful amp in its own right.

Saluti, Guido

Hello WC, in case you were interested in trying higher gain on the returning Rowland M925, each chassis has a toggle switch on the back panel which lets you change the gain from the 26dB default to 32dB.

Please note that before flipping any of the toggle switches on the back of M925 you must put the amp into standby mode via the front momentary contact switch... Toggling anyone of the back panel switches while the amp is fully powered on, might produce a sharp audible transient which might result in some damage to some speakers.

Saluti, Guido

To be more specific, M925 has a toggle switch in the back to change gain from 26dB to 32dB.

BTW, I expect more bass to come in as the amp reblooms.

G.

Viber6 is referring to the Rowland Power Storage Unit (PSU). This is an external power supply housed in a full chassis. It is  based on ultracapacitors capable of powering simultaneously the Rowland Corus linestage, the Aeris DAC, and the new Rowland Conductor phono stage.... It takes these units totally off the grid and delivers a continuous stream of totally clean DC to them.... As it uses ultracaps instead of batteries for storage, it does not cause the depression of transients that sometimes battery-based power supplies suffer from.

I am using PSU on my Rowland Aeris DAC, and have found PSU to be a transformational component, not only for dynamics, but also for resolution, staging, imaging, and overall realism of the presentation. ASteward can comment on PSU use on Corus.

G.

Hello @Pokey77, you are correct, my Criterion went to the Doctor -- the one of reference DAC fame.... I suspectt that if Criterion had been powerable by PSU, Dr. Clott would have Criterion still in his system... But alas no, Criterion was conceived well before Jeff Rowland had started on the PSU project.

If WC decides to try out the Rowland Corus linestage, I would warmly recommend he also purchases the Rowland Power Storage Unit (PSU) for it... If PSU does as much for Corus as it is doing for my Aeris DAC, it would make the already excellent Corus into a totally stunning linestage.

G.

That's exciting WP... Head's up on PSU... It takes just about one week (Some 150 hours) to break in PSU completely), with the first 72 hours being the most critical.

Corus is a different matter all together.... If it is a new unit, break-in will be quite extended.... in the 800 hours range.

Please note that Corus will not turn on / light up until the ultracaps of PSU have reached a significant charge level... THis might be 15 to 20 minutes for the first time you turn on the devices.

PSU should come with a Quick Start Guide, and Corus should have a full manual... If your units do not come with these documents in their respective/separate shipping cartons, drop me a line, and I will send them to you electronically.

Yep, this also means that If you are receiving only one shipping carton, it means that you will have received Corus with its own / dedicated / old external half chassis power supply... Fine supply for sure, but it ain't a performer like PSU ... And PSU is in a full 15.5" wide chassis, just like Corus.

Saluti, G.

Saluti, G.

Just some more detail about my front end... The Esoteric device I use as a transport is the X-01 Limited. I feed its digital signal via the SPDIF coax RCA output to one of the two Rowland Aeris SPDIF BNC inputs via the vabulous Cardas Clear digital cable, which is I believe the top of the Cardas line of digital wires. Aeris feeds M925 or M535 via Cardas Clear Reflection XLRs, and the amps feed Vienna Die Muzik also via Cardas Clear Reflection.

I use Cardas Clear Beyond XL for all my power cords.... Cardas wiring is fantastically synergistic with my Rowland gear, and is integral to the magic that my system generates.

G.

WC, my own experience with the ROWLAND PSU is that, amongst other things, it has enhanced significantly slam, authority, and macrodynamics to the Rowland Aeris DAC... AlStewart can comment on his findings on PSU applied to the Corus linestage.

BTW, the Rowland M925 has a 2500W DC power supply in each chassis... I have found over the years that quality aftermarket power cords have benefited significantly its slam/macrodynamics/authority... I can only guess that high end power cords may also benefit the other amps you are working on... But at least with Rowland M925, I found stock PCs to be chokers of just about every audible parameter I can think of.

Saluti, G.

For "slam" in classical music, one only need try The Rite Of Spring by Igor Stravinsky... I suggest the version conducted by Pierre Boulez, but there are many excellent recordings out there...

Or listen to some of the more dynamic movements of Gustav Mahler’s symphonies.... Particularly 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 9th...

WC, you still might not end up liking the music, but as a whole, and The Rite Of Spring in particular, are unlikely to let you fall asleep any time soon.

G.

Thank you Almarg, I was forgetting that Firebird and Polovesian Dances recording from Telark.. In those days at least, Telark had a 6 foot wide bass drum used whenever bassdrum was called for in the score... The effect was telluric. I believe the megadrum is featured on both the Firebird and in the Polovesian Dances by Borodin.

I have what is probably the first conversion of that original LP recording converted to CD by Telark during the 1980s... One of the first dozen CDs I purchased back them... I should listen to it again, and see how that old AAD 16/44 conversion sounds on my setup.

G.

@WhiteCamaross, in case you did not find manuals in the Rowland Corus and PSU cartons, I’ll be sending you their manuals via PM. Connection of PSU to rus is best done following directions in the PSU Getting Started.

G.

Hey WC, the PSU's contribution to three-dimensional stage, imaging, and resolution will come in gradually over the next 100 hours or so of the critter gobbling up AC and pumping DC through its ultracapacitors for Corus's benefit.... Corus itself may take quite a bit longer to give its best, depending on how broken in it is already.... Extrapolating from my own adventure with Rowland Aeris DAC when I started to feed it with PSU, the best has still to come!

Saluti, G.

PS. Ah yes, last night I received the full PSU manual from the Rowland factory... Have not opened the document yet, but it is probably much more thorough than the Quick Start guide... I'll send it to you in a few minutes.

WC's findings with the Nordost Odin1 feeding PSU are quite consistent with the further enhancements I am experiencing by powering my own Rowland Aeris+PSU DAC with the Cardas Clear Beyond XL power cord.... Larger holographic stage, further clarification of images, subtle enhancement of resolution... All together, I find Cardas wires very synergistic with Rowland components... I use Clear Beyond XL PCs also on my amps... Rowland M535 and M925s, as well as on the Esoteric X-01 transport.

Saluti, Guido