@ron17 & @zprr
I’m glad to read that you both can ear’ the difference too. As a Fellow Nordost owner I can say unequivicolly as you move up the line from Norse to Valhalla 2 to Odin there is a definitive reason why the cost goes up exponentially.
Happy listening! 🙂
|
@whitecamaross @ron17, @zprr and everyone else...
I have Tyr 2 XLR IC’s.
I am going to be making a speaker cable purchase, probably next month, and am 50/50 on going up to Valhalla 2’s rather than Tyr 2’s. For me at that price point, it’s a journey-ender as far as speaker cables go and I like that.
I’m quite happy with my Tyr 2’s btw. To me they have a harmonic ’rightness’ from top to bottom with excellent retrieval of low level details on both music and movies. I find them to be rich, detailed with an organic and natural sound. They do not filter or color the sound in almost any way and let me hear what my system is really doing. |
ron17247 posts02-13-2020 5:43pm@WCSS
No I have not tried Odin2. From what I’ve heard from you and others.....I’m afraid to. I got a price on an O2 PC and decided to stick with O1 for a while. Why don’t you send me yours to test?
@chazzzy007
I had Tyr2 speaker cables for quite a while before moving up to Val2. If you like what the Tyr2’s do in your system you will love the Val2’s.
Thanks @ron17 That’s exactly what I needed to hear to validate my purchase! LoLz!!! |
@whitecamaross
I thought about making an upgrade to my speakers before I made the Tyr 2 purchase. In the end though I have 4x PSB T3’s in a 5.1 system (matching center C3) that I also use for 2 channel and upgrading now isn’t feasible with the space I have to work with.
In the end I re-did my power with 2x Puritan power conditioners and power cords, and bought the Tyr 2 IC’s for my 5.1 system. The Puritan 156 is outstanding! I also upgraded from my Marantz 8802A and bought a Lyngdorf M60 Pre-Pro.
|
@chazzy.
At the end of the day , it's really about what makes you sit and listen for hours on end. If the Tyr2 is doing this for you , that's awesome. Some of us can't find that happy medium because we keep thinking about what else is out there that could be better. Enjoy the hell out of that cable and make a move ONLY because you want to try something else , but always remember that this could also be a step backwards. It's not always a step ahead when you buy something new.
I agree with this. I find it fascinating how we all hear very differently. How our musical tastes are so varied. To me though, Nordost is just right. I personally try to get my sound right with pre-amp and amp so that I don't have to use my speaker cables and IC's as filters. I personally prefer detail, micro-dynamics vs an overly warm sound. If a recording sounds bad I don't expect or really want my system to make it listenable. There are plenty of great recordings of artists I like out there and that is what I tend to listen to.... |
I can't wait to ear' the new video! :) |
My guess is Gryphon Antileon Evo. |
I read both your posts! Lolz 😄
We have a great little community here guys... 👍 |
Beautiful amp @whitecamaross !!! 👍 |
Personally I love the refined industrial look of Gryphon. The Antilleon, Diablo, Mephisto are all very cool looking IMO.
I'm very happy with my BAT VK_6200, but if I ever decide to upgrade to a dedicated 2 channel amp, I would definitely consider Gryphon. Both in looks and performance they are SOTA or very near SOTA at their price points. |
|
@whitecamaross
For her and her family's sake I hope she gets better and recovers. :) |
@whitecamaross
Try uploading Hotel California again and instead make the video private and only watchable with the link. |
|
My first notes here were based on listening using my Lyngdorf with room perfect as a pre-amp. I'll compare again listening direct through my Class A Tube setup which is a pretty big step up from the Lyngdorf in air, bass control and reproduction as well as sound-stage depth and detail retrieval.
|
Video unavailable
This video contains content from UMPG Publishing and WMG, one or more of whom have blocked it on copyright grounds.
:( |
ron17251 posts02-21-2020 9:10amOn my Mac laptop both cables sounded good although I was not familiar with the music. To me the Odin1 sounded more spacious, detailed and the reverberation time and decay seemed to go on forever (which I believe was the recording engineers intent). The Audiomica cables did sound fuller but less detailed and spacious....Listening to these cables back to back sounded like the Nordost Val2 vs Odin1 in my system. The Val2 sounded fuller (in the upper bass and lower midrange) than the Odin1. The O1 was more neutral with more weight (deeper bass), more spacious, detailed and much better holographic soundstage.
I think a more ’straight up’ recording without all of the added reverb and artificial effects would be a better piece of music to compare these cables. Vocals, Bass, guitar or piano and drums without added effects....or a small live acoustic jazz trio. To be able to hear how quick a stand-up bass or kick drum decays is important to me...less smearing, clear details etc...
Hearing the presentation at your house might yield different results. That’s the best I could do through a laptop. Thank you for sharing with us.
After listening to the initial video several times, I am hearing much the same as Ron here. Especially focusing on the drums, they are more distant with less detail on Audiomica. The Nordost places just as much emphasis on the vocals without lessening the impact and details of the drum kit. Overall with Nordost there is more air between instruments and a more spacious and deeper sound-stage. The sound is more detailed with Nordost without loss of musicality. |
|
Listening to both videos through my class A tube setup:
1. The drums in the audio mica come more to the forefront but are missing the details and air of the Nordost presentation. Focusing on the drums through the Nordost (on video 1) you can hear the space in which the drums are recorded. Subtle details that you completely miss on Audiomica are nicely picked up through the Nordost.
2. The overall presentation of the Nordost on both videos is more detailed and nuanced which is what one should expect as they move up the speaker cable/interconnect ladder.
Thank you for the comparison videos WCSS!
|
IMO Odin reproduces the recordings subtle nuances and details far more accurately with the end result being we hear songs much more closely to what the artist originally intended.
To my ears it does this with no loss of "musicality". |
My last listening session yielded results identical to Guido's. |
Hey everyone. Why don’t some of you post pics of your system? Since many of you have lots of suggestions I’m sure lots of us would love to see how you do it. Be sure to post several photos of the backnof your system (preamp view) showing how you rout cables there since that area tends to be the messiest spot in most systems.
Thanks... 👍 |
@techno__dude
Cool, thanks bud....
TD we all just want the best system possible within our budget. Personally I remember thinking about how bad I wanted to have a dedicated Home theater 20 years ago. I also remember how hard I worked to make it happen. I didnt have the money but I would still go into shops and look at, listen to and dream about systems...lolz
Those here who are blessed to have really amazing systems recognize the struggle and just wanna help when and where they can. 🙂 |
maplegrovemusic1,101 posts02-23-2020 12:32pmWhere is your system Chazzy ? Since you asked I thought I'd post it. Click on my username because it's there now. On a broader note I think every single one of us is at a different point in our journey. IMO we all should be posting here in an effort to be constructive towards the greater audio community and to help one another. I know personally a number of you have reached out to me with questions about similar components to mine you were considering and I've been more than happy to help where I can. Personally after finishing up my recent upgrades, Lyngdorf M60, Nordost IC's and Puritan Audio Labs conditioned and PC's I just started thinking about cable routing and organization. So after researching for a week or 2, I purchased the ALTusa L3's sold here on Audiogon about 2 months ago. That after who knows how many years I've been doing this. Lolz I'd definitely recommend them to any of you considering a cable management system. They have 3 separate "grooves" in each unit so you can rout multiple cables at once. In the end I think those of you who constantly complain and whine would be better served by asking questions or reaching out to others for help. Earlier in this thread even @mrdecibel offered his professional services to someone he thought needed help. I personally post here because I get a great deal of enjoyment from my system and I am constantly trying to be better informed. In the end I think that WCSS posts here because he gets lots of enjoyment sharing his journey and helping others with theirs. Maybe some of you should ask yourselves why you post on Audiogon or more specifically on this thread.... Have a great rest of the weekend everyone. 🙂 |
02-23-2020 5:36pmNice system chazzzy. I think your last post is a nice step to peace. I like your choice of interconnects ( Nordost Tyr 2), and also the Rel sub. SHO 5. @techno__dude In the REL lineup the S5 SHO (recently replaced by the S812 SHO) is the value king. The 12 inch driver is very fast and gets down to about 21-22 hz. What you get is a very transparent (to the main speakers) presentation that adds quite a bit of sonic information that help to re-create subtle spacial queues. RELs can literally transform a 2 channel or home theater’s sonic presentation. The before and after difference is quite noticeable. I absolutely love mine. |
@techno__dude
Since the release of the new S812 SHO a couple months back, S5 SHO’s have been closing out. Now is a great time to get one. IMO they out perform anything in their class on music, and also do quite well with Home theater. |
|
Hello everyone,
I haven’t posted on this thread for about a year, and am still trying to get caught up the last 90 days. (Extremely busy 2020 for me) Right now I am still only up to December 2020, but after hearing Jay’s new speakers, I thought I had to post.
Jay don’t take this the wrong way, you’ve had some really good setups in your listening room, but the XLF’s you have are just on another level. They are the first speaker to really blow me away. One of my local dealers has these in his showroom, so for those of you who think these sound spectacular on Jay’s channel, they are even better in person. The soundstage is huge, edgeless and effortless. The presentation is just beautiful. When you listed to these you can’t even analyze them because they just draw you into the music. 🤩🤩🤩
Incredible speakers Jay.
Please don’t sell them.
BRAVO!!! 👏👏👏
PS- See you guys again soon once I get caught up... 😄😄😄
I just finished reading Jay’s Christmas eve and day posts where one of our friends on the thread was arguing with Jay. On Christmas no less, after Jay decided to take the time to post something on YouTube for everyone.
Wow...☹☹☹
|
I have an SR Black in my BAT VK-6200 but I am not a fuse connoisseur like some here. I've had it for a few years but details of improvement are difficult to remember. |
Hey Jay,
Solid rules for the MSB v dCS shootout.
Looking forward to it.
One suggestion.
Rule 2-IMO you should use the Shunyata power conditioner for the both the Preamp and DACs. The reason you have a smaller sound field with a power amp is because of the current/power draw, both static and dynamic of the amp. Powerful amps need unrestricted current to sound their best. DACs and Preamps on the other hand are relatively low current/power draw devices so you won’t have that same problem. By not using the power conditioner you’re allowing the low level grunge in which blurs detail. Using the Shunyata conditioner will allow us all to listen deeper into the sound fields and discern more of the subtle differences between the MSB and dCS. |
|
The XLF's are on another level Jay.
Do your thing dood. 🤙
|
Jay what MSB Dac are you using, Premier, Reference, or Select II? What clock modules and other modules is it built to? There are several different Femto clocks available depending on what level MSB DAC you purchase. |
Looking forward to this shootout Jay. |
Listening and re-listening to video. Probably 4 or 5 times back and forth by now. Thoughts posted by tomorrow.
Leaning strongly towards 1 atm. |
Apple TV 4K ---》Modwright Oppo 205 DAC/Western Electric 422a rectifier tube/1975 Reflektor silver shield driver tubes/aftermarket upgraded power supply ---》Nordost Tyr 2 XLR ---》Pathos Inpol Ear Headphone amp w/1975 Reflektor silver shields ---》Nordost Heimdall 2 Headphone cable ---》Focal Utopias
Going back and forth between the Bass intro.
#1 sounds like a real bass in a live venue. If you’ve played live music you know. There is a raw agressive leading edge energy as well as string overtone that DAC #1 captures. I can clearly hear it when the bass player plucks or slaps his bass. It just sounds real. #2 smooths much of that over. At some points to my ears #2 can sound like a different recording.
Some may prefer the sound of DAC 2 and that is fine. As a drummer I know what live bass sounds like and DAC #2 to my ears is not it.
A very strong win here for DAC 1. |
Jay I was shocked I was hearing the same things as Viber! I was even going to the same portions of music. WTF!!! Lolz 😄😄😄
***Disclaimer
Unlike Viber I do not use EQ and raw copper cables, and my hearing is good to about 16 khz.***
Just kidding Viber... 😄 |
As I move thru the music, it feels like DAC #2 is giving me it's interpretation of live music where DAC #1 is giving helping a look into the actual intended recording. Musicians and sound engineers are like painters. DAC #1 has a much more co.etencolor pallette. Subtle spatial ques seem to be missing on #2 that are quite apparent on DAC #1.
Once again DAC #2 doesn't sound terrible, and others might prefer DAC2, it just does not sound right to me in this recording.
Another strong win for DAC #1
To my ears, thru my headphone system, which is quite balanced and revealing, DAC #1 is the clear winner in this first video.
|
@rh67
Some background.
At the beginning of the year I bought a pair of Focal Utopia headphones for late night listening. They were so good I started a Jay’like gearhead upgrade path. I considered the Bartok and nearly bought it. I did extended listening on it and thought that as a pure DAC it was quite good. To me it presented a relaxed organic presentation not lacking in detail. The one aspect that fell short though was the headphone amp. Where the DAC might have been an 8.5 or 9 in it’s class, IMO the headamp was merely a competent 6.5ish . I ended up buying a Pathos Inpol Ear headphone amp and upgrading my streamer to an Aurender N20. I really like my system and think I made the right choice, but to me the Bartok as a DAC did not lack.
Here we are today. The Rossini, possibly one of the most popular DACs in any class and MSB considered by many the #1 DAC maker. I did not expect a clear winner, just a difference in presentation, but so far to my ears DAC #1 is clearly better. Better at reproducing transients, leading edge attack, spacial queues, air around voices and instruments and to my ears just the less colored more accurate of the 2. Along with everything else DAC #1 also has a beautifully exquisite musical presentation.
By itself either DAC would sound quite good, but to my ears when a/b’d the faults of the lesser become quite clear. This is a real surprise to me and a very good lesson.
|
jays_audio_lab OP4,135 posts06-18-2021 6:16amNow it’s a matter of knowing which is which... Heads might roll on the floor once you find out 😂 Yup. People tend to assume that MSB is known for an organic but softer possibly less detailed presentation of music and that DAC #2 is MSB. MSB is actually DAC #1 and dCS is DAC #2 |
I am going to depart from my colleague Viper on Dac #1. He seems to have been swayed by the masses and joined the Dac #2 crowd.
On the guitar piece I hear more air around each instrument and voice. Now that could be due to an inferiror clock leading to less information and detail which gives the appearance of a deeper soundstage. I don’t think that’s the case though because I also hear more subtle detail and separation thru Dac #1. During simultaneous parts voice and guitar remain distinct and clear. On Dac #2 during the same section there’s a slight blurring or muffled’ness when voice and guitar play their parts simultaneously. There is much less separation and air around each player in the musical piece as interpreted by Dac #2 as well as less detail.
Once again to my ears Dac #1 is a very clear winner in a different section of the video.
|
I've gone back and forth a number of times on just song 1. (No song 2 at all) Once again to my ears these are very different presentations. I've listened to each DAC maybe 7 or 8 times in different sections of the Hanne Boel music. My brain now hurts. 😄😄😄
I will have to return to Jay's channel for more listening later today.
|
Viber,
Very glad to hear you are still trusting your ears.
They are quite experienced. 🍻🍻🍻
Jay,
Great choice of music here on video 2. 👍 |
Great questions Viber. 👍
As a musician I am listening for many of the same things you are. With live music there are certain subtle harmonics and overtones that when reproduced properly give music life. Spatial ques and the like also help bring you "there". (One also has to have a system capable of reproducing those queues harmonics and overtones as well and that is part of our audiophile journey) Those properties jumped out at me right away on DAC 1 in video 1.
As a drummer I like a healthy a middle ground between tight and loose skins. There’s a sense of power you get thru those deep overtones that give a solid foundation to build the rest of the music on. You can engineer some of that back once you edit the tracks but it’s not the same.
Bonzo did it so right back in the early days of Zeppelin. His drumming has such a great feel of raw power and yet he is also amazingly elegant in many of the things he does. There have been many outstanding drummers thru the decades but John Bonham is still the GOAT and IMO it’s not even close. |
This was close. To help with the comparison I downloaded song 1 on Qobuz to get a baseline reference. I also favorited Hanne Boel and saved her albums. Wonderful choice Jay or whoever recommended this song and artist. Well done!
My initial instincts after a number of a/b back and forth comparions is to check the box for DAC #2. In my mind this was fairly clear. The luscious tonality, coupled with a vivid, and bold presentation would win the day for DAC #2. As I was preparing to cast my vote I went back to listen to DAC #1 one final time… and decided to hold off. I pondered things and then thought about calling this song a draw. There are just too many things both DACs do well. So I went in for one final listen to both DACs.
The baseline Qobuz download was just too similar in many respects to DAC #2. On the original there is a thumping deep bass in the drums, as well as a very forward guitar ‘singing’ alongside Hanne Boel in ‘duo like’ manner. DAC #2 captures this in a manner superior to DAC #1 So once again I was ready to click the box for DAC #2 but before I cast my vote for DAC#2 I went to listen to DAC #1 once more to record some notes of it’s admirable performance. A loss albeit a close one to DAC #2.
To my ears the presentation for DAC #1 is just a bit more laid back. The drums and guitar that are quite forward and bold on DAC #2’s presentation are more recessed here. DAC #1 is different than the reference Qobuz presentation I hear thru my headphones as well. DAC #1 simply does not capture the guitar and bold deep bass of the drums like DAC #2. What is also different though are the the subtle guitar harmonics and decay I hear. How they gracefully linger and then subtly fade. Such beautifully presented music. That little ‘something’ that catches your attention as you hear something previously unnoticed is here. As I continue to listen, the drums though not as bold, also have a slight resonance as their overtones hang in the air for a moment or 2 before decaying. To my ears the air around each instrument as well as the vocals are also superior to DAC #2. When comparing this to DAC #2’s rich, vivid, bold sound I understand what made me want to vote for DAC #2. However to my ears that ever so slight ethereal quality just seems to be missing. That little something that takes a piece over the top into SOTA. At any level I think what we all look for is that missing 3-5% in performance that takes us to the next level and that’s when I decided to cast my vote for DAC #1 once again.
To my ears DAC #1 simply does the little things we want a top notch piece of gear in a system to do. Song #2 was a close but definitive victory for DAC #1. To my ears there is just that extra bit of air, decay, separation and because of these things an elegance and delicacy in it’s presentation that carries the day once again for DAC #1. And this in spite of DAC #2’s pleasing performance in other areas.
In closing this I wonder how the presentation of both DACs would change for the better with a more upscale amplifier? The Essence is good but not anywhere near the best in the Gryphon family. Therefore I will be petitioning Jay for a rematch thru the Evo Antileon once the dust and discussion on this shootout clears over the course of the next few weeks. Would either or both of these DACs performance better in the areas they are lacking?
Halfway thru the shootout the Scoreboard reads
DAC #1 1.5 points – DAC #2 0 points
|
@ron17
I am voting for the best DAC. Not what sounds best with this system. I am looking at all performance parameters and voting for the DAC I think is doing the best job of da conversion. |
Jay,
The new microphone sound good.
How does the recording sound to you?
Is it faithfully recreating what you are hearing in your room? |
Read my thoughts on both DACs again. I’m looking at a number of different performance areas. To my ears DAC #1’s overall performance is superior.
Having said that we all have different preferences and hear differently. 🙂
|
Since the Evo Antileon seems to be ruled out by Jay due to it’s warmth, once the dust settles in the next few weeks I will have to prepare a petition for a return of the #1 Mephisto and a DAC battle rematch.
Hopefully Jay has a change of heart with the Antileon so we can have an MBS v dCS Trilogy. |
@rbach
I get it.
Jay does his best to be politically correct and on the best terms when it comes to manufacturers. He constantly moves equipment and wants to be on best terms, especially as his brand and thread here continue to grow. That’s a legitimate and intelligent position.
I on the other hand don’t have to worry about that. To my ears and in my system, DAC #1 outperforms DAC #2 in very critical areas. DAC #2 gives up performance in separation, detail, air, and harmonic nuance in exchange for vivid presentaion and tonal density or what Johnny Darko calls "chunkiness". Lolz 😄
DAC #1 outperforms DAC #2 in what I would require a SOTA DAC to do. I can match it with any components I want to make for richer tonal qualities. That’s easy. For instance a BAT Rex tube amp or a Gryphon Mephisto for a bit richer presentation. Or I can keep the Essense and substitute Valhalla 2 XLR’s and or Valhalla speaker cables for the Synergistics. (Jay the Synergistics are a bit cooler than the Valhalla 2’s yes?) Or I could put back in the Shunyata conditioner which Jay says adds warmth and "benefits one DAC and not the other" remember?
So yeah, I get it. 😉 |
