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My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:

Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005

With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:

ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)

NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)

Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)

rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)

cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)

parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)

lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)

McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.

butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)

pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.

classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)

Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:



PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.

Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.

Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?

Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.

 It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.

Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.

Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.

Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.

Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.

Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.

My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.

That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!


128x128jays_audio_lab

Showing 50 responses by jays_audio_lab

jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Stay tuned for more impressions of this monster of an amp. This amp makes me feel sad for those of you who are stuck with boutique names that are praised by magazines. It is such s sleeper of an amp that makes your jaw drop. If it only had a name plate of a mainstream brand on it then it would be flying off the shelves...
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Lol thanks jafox. 
Honestly, I wish each and every one of you could come over this weekend to be part of this shootout. You all would find your own songs in tidal which you are familiar with and play them so that you know what sounds good and what doesn’t. I think everyone would go home thinking what their move would be. I’d even tell you all to bring any amp you want to hear so you can compare. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Viber,
no dealer rents xs300s lol. That’s like asking a Range Rover dealer to let you take the car home to see how you like it. Just won’t happen. If the Range Rover leaves the dealer, you’re forking out $100k plus dollars or making $1250 monthly payments. People who come to buy things at this level are assumed TO KNOW about the item in front of them. They know if you are knocking on the door, you know your cars, electronics etc. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
i Was going to hold this but I’ll share it. I’ve started to negotiate a pair of pass labs best amps: xs300.
No im not buying them for 20k dollars. They are 85,000 dollars and would be the most expensive amps I’ve owned. Not sure if this deal will come to life but right now the conversation has started and the starting asking price is enough to buy a new bmw. I’ll retire pass labs if I end up owning this amp. I will be able to close the line complete from my wish list. All I want to try are those xs300s. Nothing else interests me from them.
It will take a massive amount of $ to do it but I was born to do this. The last pair of xs300s sold for over 50k. Yes, nothing will come cheap at the level that I’m at. I’m well aware of it.  I will need to sacrifice some equipment (momentum integrated, Diablo, Plinius sa103, etc etc) in order to put this deal together. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
So far, i have to say that I also prefer Wilson’s and Focal over panels. The ease of just doing almost a "plug and play" is what is attractive to me. Panels certainly have a place in my heart because they do things that conventional speakers can’t do but once you go through very respectable speaker models you soon realize how good they can be without having to do a ton of tweaks or assembling lots of things around the speaker to make them sound incredible (subs, crossovers, space, room behind the speaker, etc, etc)
I could go back to panels in the future but right now that thought is very far away from me. I want to explore more top end speakers before I do that.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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You wanna know how hot the xs150s ran? Ok drive your car for 10 minutes then pop the hood and put your hand over the engine. That’s how hot they get. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Unfortunately I’m not going to gamble with cables. With audio gear I can gamble because people buy components but cables are not easy to sell if they didn’t do what you wanted them to do... you are stuck with them. So unless they easily best these cables here in my home, I won’t go there. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Musical fidelity titan: monster bass control. It sounds as if it’s Godzilla stumping in my room. Effortless power reserves. It plays so dynamically and powerful that it’s scary. Makes me feel as if my oled tv is going to shatter from sheer pressure in the room.
This amplifier is such a fun amplifier guys. It shows you what sheer power can do for your speakers at any volume level. This is one of the top 4 amplifiers I’ve owned. Easily besting anything I’ve owned from pass labs, McIntosh, classe, bhk, Krell, Boulder, simaudio, Plinius. This amp will easily put turbochargers in your music. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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I just tried the Lampizator with wireworld gold 8 cables and connected directly to the titan and well... no it is not sounding better or as good as the ref10. The ref10 adds something more engaging and just more enjoyable that I can’t explain 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Omg I just tried the wireworld platinum 8 rca cables on the dac and it sounds as if I rolled tubes. Wow. I’m in shock how much of a difference this platinum 8 rca made and it’s not even broken in. Wow. I can’t believe how good it is. Insane
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jays_audio_lab OP
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So right now, I went back to the block audios and they sound great but they don’t seem to wow me as the titan fidelity was doing earlier today. However, they have been unplugged for over a day and I remember when I first got them I wasn’t impressed. I became impressed until the next day. They sounded totally different so tomorrow night might be a great showdown as well as Saturday. Both amps will be fully warm Saturday afternoon before the shoot out. I want both to at least be idling for a full day. The preamp and dac will be on 3 hours before the shootout begins. My buddies will jot down their impressions on paper and each person will listen alone without anyone else in the room so that nobody is biased. Once each person listens to about 3 songs through each amp (their own selection) then the next person will go inside and do the same until we are all done. I will then collect their notes and see what each person decided and their opinion on the amplifiers. I will be sure to post what each one of them wrote down on paper.



jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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FYI: the ref 10 is no longer 30k. I believe it’s 34k as of last month. This means the used market will also go up. Don’t expect any robberies on ref10s. 

Yes, I don’t want to try another preamp until it can come here and easily beat my ref10. I don’t dare to sell my ref10 or the lampizator pacific until their successors are released. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Ref6 is awesome but the ref10 is oustanding. You have a Mercedes s550 but this is the maybach. 
Lastly, I don’t know but boy oh boy this amp has turned me upside down. Someone told me before I bought the neoltihs that he hated them until he heard them with the 750se arc Monos and that’s when his jaw dropped. Well guys, I think it’s just that the neoltihs crave clean huge power. They are talking to me right now in ways that I didn’t think was possible. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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I like where we are finally headed with this thread. It was about time that we all get excited and curious as well and give their input making things interesting. This page has been one of the best pages in the last month or so. Let’s not get derailed and begin bickering please. Keep things flowing as they are. 

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jays_audio_lab OP
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GTAphile,
you’re the 3rd person that confirms what I’ve been saying: ref10 is miles ahead of many preamps out there. It’s almsot a laughing matter when comparing the ref10 to other preamps. It’s a spectacular preamp to say the least. 

Man, the titan amp came and has caused havoc here. What an stupendous power amp. People are spending far more on amps and this amp would stump on most a
amps out there. I hope you are all learning a thing or 2 here. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Kren 
I don't really feel the need to have more bass. I feel like the Sashas have sufficient bass as long as the partnering gear is good. I also sit close to a rear wall which help enhance the oomph factor. 
I heard the alexx and the bass was ridiculously deep. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Titan has incredible resolution. It has very clear mids that never sounds muffled. My preliminary feeling and a SHOCKING FEELING is that the titan could have more of what the Neoliths need. Again, this is only my gut feeling right now but I won’t know until tomorrow. Stay tuned 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Let’s remember one thing: audio research has always been awesome with many different amplifiers. In my opinion, the Luxman 900u preamp is made for the 900u amp. The one amp that sounded amazing with the 900u preamp was the Rowland 925s.
I still think there’s no better preamp than the ref10. I say it not only because of what it does, but because it works amazingly with many different amps. I said it before, I think only the replacement of the ref10 will be able to unseat my ref10. When I first heard it in my system, it took SECONDS for me to know i was listening to something special. Every other preamp I’ve heard sounds smaller, soundstage Is collapsed and just doesn’t engage you.
Even if some of you might call it “euphonic”, it is one hell of an euphonic experience let me tell you.

ref10 avg street price is around $15,000 but expect that to go up to about $17k now that the retail price went up. Audio research can’t come up with a better preamp. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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New video has been uploaded. Back to the ref6se and 2 amps. Let me know your thoughts
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Ok guys,
the amplifiers have been on since yesterday morning. The dac and preamp are on idling as we speak until the shootout starts at 3pm. No excuses of anything not being warm enough or ready to go. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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i Don’t believe what techno has been preaching actually exists. I just think he thinks there must be something like what he describes but we are all still hearing crickets. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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+1
i still can’t find a dac that can unseat a top end preamp. Of course if you are using a 2,000 preamp and your dac is 30k, you might want to use your dac as a preamp but if you have a killer preamp, it won’t be easy to find a dac that can beat it. The preamp just digs deeper into the incoming signal and amplifies it even more. It’s like you using your naked eye to look at a diamond and then you put a magnifying glass on and look at the diamond again. You’ll notice far more details with the magnifying glass that the naked eye can’t capture.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Excellent point almarg. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Ok guys,
the shoot out has ended. We listened to several songs through the titan at massive volume levels and it did not disappoint. The soundstage was immersive, dynamic, excellent bass control, zero compression, great highs (more on them later) awesome mids and just everything was there for me. Everyone was very impressed with this amp using the ref10 as a preamp. 
We then moved on to the block audios and we repeated the same songs. The immediate response from people was “no contest this is far superior, incredible liquidity, more clarity, better highs, Fuller sound”. I think everyone  here unanimously chose the block audios over the titan. 
The blocks just exposed the superior highs it possesses and although everyone was content with the highs of the titan, the blocks just showed you how much better things can get. 
Result: first win for the block audios. 

Soon after that shootout we started to do the dac vs ref10 through the block audios. We started with silver 7 rca cables to connect the dac with. The ref 10 easily bested the dac but later I decided to use the platinum 8 rca and try again. The immediate impression was “holy cow” the dac is now beating the ref10. We used a couple of songs and everyone chose the dac over the ref10 when using the platinum rca on the dac. However, my argument was (still is) that the dac doesn’t really always best the ref10. There are songs where the dac simply can’t give you enough volume and the ref10 can. There are also situations where the song isn’t well recorded and the ref10 makes the song pleasurable to listen to and the dac won’t do that. Sure, some can say “I prefer the dac because it’s true to the source or the recording etc etc” but the truth is that this is bs. NOBODY wants for any song to sound like poop through their expensive rig. We all want for things to sound their best. Some say the ref10 is euphonic some others can say the dac is True to the source. However, know that the dac WILL NOT ALWAYS work well with amplifiers. You have a much more difficult job finding a set of amps that work well with the dac. This is not really the case with the ref10. It will be more compatible with more amplifiers than the dac will. The ref10 allows you to keep switching amplifiers and sources while keeping things working find but with the dac you have less opportunity to try more amplifiers because it may not have enough juice to make some amplifier sing. 
i love the larger soundstage and fullness of the ref10. Anyhow, towards the end I ended up showing my friends songs where the ref10 outshines the dac and after they heard them they agreed with my point: the ref10 will forgive you far more and present you with more opportunity to enjoy a broader range of music even if it’s not well recorded. 

jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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I’m glad some of you found my findings interesting. In my current journey, I simply can’t see how I can sell my ref10 and use the dac as a preamp. Why? Because I go through a lot of amps and I’m sure there will be amps that I won’t be able to fully test with just this dac. I have to use about 95% of the dacs volume in order to compete with the ref10 at only half the volume.... 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
So techno, when are you dumping the McIntosh and getting a Lampizator pacific ? 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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My pleasure bigddesign. indeed today we hit peaks of 108 dbs with the logans and the titan. I wish those people who don’t believe there’s an electrostatic that can play loud with dynamics could have been here. I would have given them the remote control and my iPad and let them blast their ears off with any decibel level they choose while the back of their head vibrates against the chair.
Oh before I forget, that was 108 dB without any sort of compression or lack of slam. First time I get to hear my neoltihs play so loud that I just made me realize (as what one friend said here) where the hell do I go from these speakers? There isn’t really anywhere else I could do. If had bought the magico m3, I would have probably been told today “can you turn up the bass? Can you turn the treble down a little when you crank it up? “

Witn the Neoliths: if you love bass and fullness, check. if you love huge sound, check. if you love mids, check. If you love sound that comes behind your head, check. That said, this is NOT THE SPEAKER for those of you who complain about everything. If you are the type that will say “ nah that 80 inch oled is too big for my room or nah I bought the 6 cylinder camaro because the zl1 camaro eats too much gas or nah I chose to marry the raggedy looking girl because the hot one requires me to pay for her hair and nails and pretty outfits for her to look hot for me all the time, etc etc “ then DO NOT GET THE NEOLITH. It’s not a speaker for the whiners or those of you still wearing diapers. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
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Speaker cables: wireworld platinum 7 on the highs and wireworld silver 8 on the lows (Both are the same length)
Balanced cables coming from the preamp are wireworld silver 8. Usb cable is platinum 7. Powercords on the blocks arre 10 dollar stock power cords and the powercord on the dac is the silver 7. Powercord on the preamp is the shunyata sigma nr. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Teaser #1 


https://youtu.be/G_2ETiDJn98
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Tjassoc:

Speaker cables: wireworld platinum 7 on the highs and wireworld silver 8 on the lows (Both are the same length)
Balanced cables coming from the preamp are wireworld silver 8. Usb cable is platinum 7. Powercords on the blocks arre 10 dollar stock power cords and the powercord on the dac is the silver 7. Powercord on the preamp is the shunyata sigma nr.

I would love to get hands on the xs300 but we can’t seem to come to an agreement in terms of price. The block audios need this caliber of competition to really put them to the test. We will wait and see if the xs300s will ever make an appearance here. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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All my walls are treated including the ceiling. My room has zero resonance or echoes or the feeling of bass bouncing around the room. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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hi Jafox, 
i have two 20a dedicated circuits and i also have the standard 15a outlets. i had the blocks turned on on "eco mode" where they just idle in class ab and then the titan was off to the side on a 15a outlet just idling all day long and the night prior as well. i have 4 outlets total behind my equipment. 

So in regards to the dac vs ref10, again the dac is incredible as a preamp, but you need outstanding rca cables and power cords to really make it shine. The ref 10 will sound good with more music types than the dac will. I loved the dac, but you all need to remember i go through many amps and i want to be sure i am being fair with each amp i buy. i don't want it to ever be a situation where the amp doesn't sound good because the dac does not have enough juice for it. 
i played the dsd album from "thriller" and selected the song "human nature" and it was no contest the ref10 ate the dac alive on that song. It just made his voice bigger, soundstage went behind your head and the dac did not do any of that. It gave a good presentation but it was a little more lethargic in comparison. 
What i might do is to purchase or demo a platinum 7 power cord on the dac to see how much better it gets. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Sounds good. To each their own !
I present what I have going on and what I find works or doesn't work. Let's also not forget that a lot of people here come to form an opinion on systems that they only have seen on pictures. For instance, how many have actually heard a Martin Logan neolith with PROPER AMPLIFIERS? How many have heard gryphon with Wilson audio ?

The truth is that as you move up the ladder you also continue to learn and what worked for you in your earlier "cheaper" system might no longer work with a more expensive system. 
If you for example are running a 20k system, it is difficult to come in and "advice " someone who is running a 1/4 of a million dollar system UNLESS you have previously owned a system that expensive and you now have downsized or you have made a living setting up systems of big price points. 
I remember owning systems that were far less money (as you saw on one of my videos) and today I realize how far behind I truly was. How little I knew when it came to cables, power conditioning, etc etc. 
I always go back to the car analogy: it is very hard to tell a Ferrari owner how to drive a Ferrari when you have been driving a Honda Civic type R... Granted, I've owned both types of systems in the past so this is why I feel somewhat qualified to express myself as I am. Hope this makes sense. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
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Here is the one issue,
The sashas need room behind them. If I do the typical "living room set up " with the Sasha’s then the SOUNDSTAGE collapses. Wilson needs space behind them to sound best.
Also, I did the exact methodology cardas has outlined on their site and this puts my Wilson’s at about 6 feet away from the wall behind them..yes even the wife asked why are the speakers so far out etc. I’ve played with all sorts of positions with these speakers and the focals and I always end up hearing far more depth and "surround sound " feeling when they are as far away as possible from any wall. To your earlier point, I definitely have the room to do anything I want and this is exactly a perfect example of it. No need to make the room look like a living room with the speakers 2 feet away from the wall behind them etc. Also, the wall behind me helps a speaker like this give it a little more muscle. I don’t want to use subwoofers for music so that isn’t an option because it complicates things unless I was using a magnepan then sure I would use subs.
Maybe one day I will do panels and bring subs.
Anytime I tried the Sasha or focal 2-3 feet away from the rear wall and me moving up closer where I am about 8 feet away from the wall behind me I hear no Bass, and a collapsed sound.. maybe my room needs a big speaker with bigger drivers for more bass. Let's not forget I had the sasha 2s before in the living room and I heard no Bass... But I was seated about 13 feet away from the wall behind me...
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i understand. As i said on my previous post, i have done the work in my room and determined that where i am seated provides me with the best balance i can achieve given the speakers i own. I am also doing pretty much near field listening since i am about 8 feet away from my speakers in a perfect equilateral triangle. I also think that going into a studio would NOT automatically mean the sound will be to your liking. Accuracy isn’t always the "preferred" way to go and i sincerely doubt ANYONE here has "accuracy" within their corresponding rooms. Trade offs are indeed part of the hobby and it is up to each person to decide what they can or can not compromise with.
 For me, i can’t have just clarity and detail and then each time the bass is supposed to hit all i hear are crickets so i compromised and got closer to my rear wall and it just so happened that i gained not just more bass but also much more depth and sound that seems to come from behind the speaker cabinets.
i remember trying for hours and hours and hours to position the focal and then the wilsons and the more far away i got from the rear wall in my room, the thinner and less impactful the sound was. I must have done this probably 10 different times and i always ended up getting closer to the rear wall.
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That is an accurate representation of what is happening in my room with the DAW and the Focal Scala EVO when i had them. I never tried it with the Alexia but maybe this would be different with the Alexia and i could successfully practice your recommendation. 
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zprr: the blocks just have so much of everything in spades. As a matter of fact, I DO NOT THINK the xs300s have the level of clarity and bass control (going by my recollection of the xs150 I owned). I think they would sound slow with nowhere near the bass control of the blocks.
The titan has a huge soundstage with incredible dynamics and fullness. I could be perfectly happy with it had I not heard the blocks right after. the level of construction of the blocks is just incredible. You look at the binding posts, Heatsinks, etc and it screams quality. Lastly, remember that I have not really tried playing with powecords with them as of yet. I briefly tried the shunyata sigma nr but I will try wireworld platinum 7 powecords soon.
Overall, the titan is a special machine with tons of control and dynamics. It is above many amps I’ve previously owned here. This amp fights amps costing far more. It would kill any of the pass labs solid state amps by a long shot. It would spit out parasound, Krell, classe, McIntosh, theta digital, Hegel, and many more I can’t think of right now.
If you have speakers that need to be woken up and spread a huge soundstage, dynamics and neutral then this is your amp. Hands down
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Thanks for the support everyone. More great things to come soon! 

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Just added the platinum 7 powercord to the dac and things are just getting harder and harder. 
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Ok so I just listened to the ref10 vs Lampizator dac for 2 hours at about 95db The dac now has platinum 7 powercord and interconnects. 

1. The lampizator brings it. It comes with force and tons of detail. Awesome soundstage but not as big as the ref10
2. Lampizator sounds awesome and there’s even a little more detail at times that might not be so apparent through the ref 10
3. The lampizator can get a little “hot” sounding when you sit down for quite a bit. I noticed a little “ringing” in my ears which has never happened through the ref 10
4. Both are excellent with excellent recordings but the ref10 kills it with poor recordings. 
5. The ref10 has better bass control or just meatier bottom end. 

It really comes down to preferences here. It is like Pepsi and coke to be honest. Some feel Pepsi is too sweet and others find coke too bitter. I personally could go either way but I did notice that my ears were getting a little “overwhelmed” with the lampizator because it’s just a little more in your face. The ref10 cruises with wide soundstage and smoothness and never ever causing fatigue. 
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@greyhound 
I agree with what you said about things not needing to be in your face in order to be enjoyable. I also agree that MOST OF US judge components by listening for 5 minutes and in reality it takes more time than that. This is why anytime I give my initial impressions I call them “preliminary” Because they might change as I sit down for weeks with a component. Sometimes I’ve had an impression that wowed me and then as I take my time to compare I realize that I need to scratch a few things I’ve said.
With that being said, we keep going back to the “live presentation” and the need to get closer to it, but I remember going to live performances that made my ears bleed... does this mean I want my ears to bleed at home too? Not really... I want my components to bring it to my home but also being “enjoyable” and “listenable”. I want them to “remaster” these live Performances and make them even better at my home.
The other day I took my wife out for a drink and there was a band playing live music with all sorts of instruments and you know what she said? This sounds awful (it was very loud) and she plugged her ears with a paper napkin.... I laughed and said “ oh so you NOW SEE AND HEAR THE DIFFERENCE FROM BAD SOUND AND FROM WHAT WE HAVE AT HOME HUH?”
she said “ I can’t believe How the human ears get used to good or bad sound “
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@respected_ent 
i might do that then. For now, here are my final thoughts:
The Pacific Dac is SPECTACULAR in every way. Not only is it a great dac, but it is incredible as a preamp too. It is more of the type of presentation that you would get in the front rows where things seem a bit more "energetic" and in your face. You get all the detail and clarity you need, but if you like to listen quite loud, it might make your hearing a little agitated after a few hours of listening. The ref10 is more of the presentation you get in middle and back rows. It is larger, less in your face and NEVER EVER FATIGUING. It does not matter how hard to try to get fatigued, the ref10 just won't ever do that to you. You can blast your ears with it and it just wont do that to you.
One last thing, please remember that for the most part, in order for anyone to do LONG LONG LOOOONG hours of listening sessions without any fatigue, you need smooth, relaxed, musical presentations. You can't be at an IMAX theater with 20,000 watts of power at full throttle watching MAD MAX 6 hours in a row. Your ears won't take the punishment. 
However, maybe you other tubes things will get super interesting for the pacific dac :) 
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w1000i
i did hear about the musical fidelity ams100, but that is a hard amp to come by. I read an article about it a few nights ago. It certainly has my interest. 

viber6
i understand your way of thinking from your last post. However, i think i am not the only person who enjoys listening to music for longer than an hour at a time.  My explanation above was to simply state the differences between both. THIS IS WHY the ref10 is dearly loved by a ton of audiophiles. Maybe it is the fact that it allows you to just sit for hours and hours and NOT ONCE do you get tired or bored of listening? 
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I can’t judge those who like classical music but I just start dozing off each time I try to sit and listen.  I guess that’s why we have different colors in life.... 
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https://youtu.be/BWl2WwvCJcQ
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Ladies and gentlemen:
tonight I’ve done more serious listening between the dac pacific Lampizator and ref10. 
This week I added the wireworld platinum 7 powercord to the dac and I am now using platinum 7 xlr from the ref10 to the amps. 
Last weekend when I did the shootout I was using wireworld silver 8 xlr to connect the amps to the preamp. I chose the ref10 over the pacific lampi because it was more forgiving with bad music and just threw a bigger sound overall. The dac was less forgiving but still stellar sounding nonetheless. 
Anyhow as I said above, I added the platinum silver 7 powercord to the dac and platinum 7 xlr to the preamp/amp connection. I’ve been listening to the dac as a preamp for the last 3 days after adding the platinum 7 powercord cord.  I let my ears simmer in the sound and get as acquainted as possible with the sound. 
Today, I fired up the ref10 and began to do a/b comparisons and I am now gauging things better.  The ref10 is huge sounding with air around the instruments and clarity in spades. It has been the only preamp that woke up my revel salon 2s in regards to the bass. It added a ton of fun to every single songs  that I’ve played through it. It has never ever disappointed me. That said, I can now honestly say that things have shifted and I am now leaning towards the pacific lampi. Reasons why:

1. It sounds liquid and very detailed at low volumes. This volume level is what I mainly have to listen to when I do late night listening. The ref 10s relaxed presentation stays relaxed at lower volumes and that makes it a little harder for me to pick up the same level of detail as the Pacific DAC. 
2. The dac sounds as if the singer brings the mic closer to his mouth while the ref10 does not. This effect helps tremendously when I listen to music videos (YouTube videos) which I do listen to here and there in order to see how much clarity a component can dig out from an old music video from the 80s or 90s. This exercise has been crucial for me in the past especially when testing a cable’s ability to absorb noise. 
3. I had the wife sit down and listen to both while blind folded. She kept picking up the lampizator. She said the ref10s was somewhat warm sounding. 

With that said, this could be the start of a new adventure in terms of preamplification.  
I’m shocked to say the least but my ears have identified something that is stimulating and really amazing. I want to keep tweaking the sound of the lampizator with other things I have in mind. I also still need to get powecords for my monoblocks. The entire set up will have silver cables throughout in order keep things with synergy. This is super exciting and incredible. I never thought this dac would grow on me so much over the past few days but I can’t deny facts. What a spectacular component. I DO NOT REGRET FOR ONE SECOND not having bought the MSB dac.  
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Techno,
i agree with you. Let’s just wait and see first if that’s the route I want to take. I need to try different xlrs with ref10 and the platinum powecords too. Before I decide to eliminate anything, I gotta be sure because all of the gear I own right now doesn’t show up on the used market often. 2 of my friends are advising against me selling the ref10. They say it’s a massive mistake if I’m going to continue trying amps. I agree with that statement. 
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Vivaldi vs Rossini....hmmm I am listening to the Rossini right now and it is indeed a great topic. i will need to talk about this in the near future. 
how much better is the Vivaldi? 10%? 30%? 60%? ??
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Hi jafox,
yes I have the p10 from ps audio as power conditioner. As far as tube rolling, I’m definetely thinking about that. I want to see how much better the dac will get. I also need to try 2 more cables with my ref10. I’m not done yet with the ref10. That component is outstanding. 
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