Jay,
I understand your position. My posts may seem irrelevant to many people, but not to a minority of readers who recognize my experience and do see the relevance of it to anyone's quest for better sound from their systems. They have reasonable questions about what I say, are polite about it, so I respond.
Shannere had good questions of me, and I promise to be as brief as I can. One problem with private messaging is that your name is revealed. I do PM with a small number of people who I can trust. |
Shannere,
I forgot to mention that the best position in the hall is the symphony conductor who is standing close in the middle of it all. He hears the best detail of all the individual players, as well as the totality of the ensemble sound. Years ago, I got inspired by all this, and made great recordings with the 2 microphones in ORTF configuration right behind the conductor's head. |
rh67,
If you are 67, I am older than you. Share your venerable experience on any audio forum, even if some of it may seem off topic to some people who just want specific advice on components. As for the golden age, some recordings of Caruso and other artists sound very immediate, because they sang directly into the horn and later with electrical recording, the mikes were close. Even if HF were diminished, there was palpable excitement.
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I like the clarity of sound in the last video with the tube mono blocks. I prefer it to the preceding video with the other new amps. Unfortunately, the recordings are different, so it is meaningless to say that one set of electronics has A or B characteristic, and the other has C or D characteristic. |
If this new tube amp has great clarity on more songs, it will be a delightful discovery.
Jay, thanks for this. |
RIAA,
I hope Jay does the tube rolling which would optimize the already superb sound we are hearing so far. Also, this would encourage him to put more time on great amps or anything else, and not just go through the rapid turnover. Rapid turnover is fine for mediocre stuff and for financial prudence. |
Logydoghan,
Funny anecdote about Spectral. A few years ago, someone had an older Spectral amp that didn't require an entire Spectral preamp and the MIT cables. I was a serious customer because I have owned very early Sp preamps and amps and worshipped at the Sp altar. I took my Bryston 2.5B SST2 to A/B with his Sp amp. Since I didn't know his system, I asked him to tell me what he thought first. He listened mainly to rock/pop. He actually liked my Bryston more than his Sp, because it gave more snap/sparkle to his music. We had the same taste even though we listen to different music. He said honestly, "don't buy my Sp." A typical seller/dealer would have trashed my Bryston in favor of what he wanted to sell. |
Jay,
I wish you could do an A/B shootout of the Constellation with the new tube monos. You said the Connie is a little sweet but still detailed. I'd be curious if the tube amps are faster/more detailed and more neutral than the Connie. That would make headlines--a tube amp that breaks the mold of most tube amps which are warm/euphonic, and also beats the SS amps at what they are trying to do by being neutral/accurate. But perhaps your favorite SS amps have all been with warm coatings, so the real test would be how the tube amp does against the neutral/detailed Benchmark AHB2, which I hope yyzsantabarbara sends you. |
Atma-sphere is IT. MA-3? So many power tubes, like the Manhattan skyline. This is the most likely tube amp that doesn't sound tubey. See my discussion today with atmasphere on the LSA Voyager GaN thread, or just search today's posts from me or atmasphere. What an eye-opener. |
Spectral is marketing their concept of the whole system for several reasons. One, the customer who buys their recent products is warned never to buy only individual pieces because such use will blow up the amp and repairs will be prohibitively expensive. So that builds more money in sales. Second, I am not a qualified engineer to debate their rationalizations about megaHz bandwidth and then filtering it with MIT cable. I can tell you that many years ago, I found MIT cable to be quite veiled compared to other audiophile cables, let alone zip for speaker wire, and a few audiophile interconnects. But third, and most practical, is the story I just told about how Spectral sound is NOT the neutral/transparent kind they brag about, but is merely OK, and objectively euphonic compared to my Bryston, as heard by both me and the seller of the Sp amp I was considering. It is still possible that Spectral amps in early stages sound great, but they deteriorate in sound over time, so the guy selling his Sp amp had a mellowed out unit. My experience with an early Spectral DMA-50 amp was it had great speed and clarity in the beginning, but only a few hours later it got soft and mushy. This persisted over a day, so I returned the unit. I experienced the same thing with a Goldmund Mimesis 3 amp, which like that Spectral, was only 2 inches thick and ran extremely hot. I am uncomfortable with extremely hot amps, believing that components change their behavior with extreme heat. The original Mark Levinson ML2, the first famous class A amp, exhibited this sonic deterioration also, but not as quickly as did the Spectral and Goldmund.
The S emperor has no clothes. |
It sounds like you love tube romantic sound, since you refer to the VAC as romantic by itself. So how does it differ from ARC? This may be difficult to answer, since you never used ARC tube amps with the 725 and the other new preamps, maybe not even with the XLF. Too many variables here to say what the specific qualities of VAC are compared to ARC. |
kren0006 said, "I predict that Viber will have a hard time dealing with that."
Not at all. It is clear that Jay's top criterion is sweet, romantic sound, with enough detail to please him. The XLF provides the detail, and the all tube preamp/amp sweetens the brilliant HF of the XLF. This is excellent synergy for lots of music, but I wonder how Jay will feel when he wants to hear Metallica with the same excitement he gets from fast cars. I predict he will prefer the 725 to the ARC preamp for this particular music.
Dguitarnut says that his VAC amp and preamp give a more relaxed presentation than his Gryphon Diablo 300. This correlates with Jay's findings on his VAC Statement 450.
My only disappointment was that I mistakenly thought Jay was excited about the clarity of his tube amps compared to lots of SS amps. In reality, he meant the overall romantic sound of the tube amps that SS amps don't possess. Due to all the variables I mentioned, it would be nice if Jay could get the ARC tube amps to directly A/B against the VAC, instead of relying on his memory of the ARC amps, which I think were used only with the other Wilson speakers.
I hope he has the opportunity to get or hear the Atma-sphere tube amps which are OTL. These unique designs promise to be the most accurate tube amps around, which compete with SS for clarity and also have the natural, lively sound that tubes try to attain, but which most of them fail because of the warm, forgiving alterations they introduce. In my early days, I was romanced by the seductive sounds of tube preamps and amps. |
yyzsantabarbara offered to send the AHB2 and Voyager GaN. He will soon get back his Voyager after ricevs' mods. He will want to listen and assess for himself first. Real audiophiles don't live by deadline timetables. Be patient, everyone. |
Soulution 725 = rocket. Speedboats are boring by comparison.
Jay, I am sure you seek the rocket (725) when you want to bang with Metallica. |
kren0006,
You misinterpret Jay's remarks, thinking that he said he is THE authority. But he is more truthful than you, saying that his findings are only one man's opinion. I agree with that. Get that straight, and cut out your negative remarks to me.
YOU pay attention--"I feel like selling all my SS gear" is merely his emotional love affair with warm tube sound. I predict that he will prefer the 725 on things like Metallica. Do YOU understand why? |
Jay,
This all sounds exciting for you, but what do you mean by your "representing" of certain companies? Retail/online dealers "represent" certain companies mainly because of good business relationships, but that doesn't necessarily serve the interests of customers, due to the business bias. The value of your thread has been your unbiased findings on equipment you have bought and sold, which has been unique, unlike any dealer or magazine. Now I wonder how you can combine the goals of one, business advancement and two, honesty in evaluations.
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Jay,
I am stepping up to the plate, and will happily send you my stock Rouge Audio Studio N10 DM Ice Edge 1200 AS1. I decided about this a few days ago, wrote klh007, and he strongly encouraged me to do it, since we both believe that the group will find this productive and valuable. He owns the Mivera modded stereo Ice Edge version, thinks my dual mono Rouge is probably a little better, although he still prefers his flagship Frank Van Alstine SS for its relative warmth.
My Rouge has about 450 hours on it. It is quite neutral, and is close to my Mytek Brooklyn Amp original version in its neutral tonality. When I switch back and forth between them, sometimes I hear the Rouge sounding a little warmer, but at other times more crisp in HF. The tonality depends on the power quality in my NYC apartment, which can vary by the minute, whether AM or PM. But the Rouge is definitely much more authoritative and dynamic, especially in the lower midrange, bass, while the Mytek is leaner. My handicap is that my electrostatic speakers with their limited bass and dynamics don't enable me to properly judge the amp's bass and dynamics, but my impression is that the Rouge rates tops in this area. At 600W/8 ohms, 1200W/4, 1000W/2 per channel, it ought to be impressive. It has similarities to the PS Audio M1200, which Mike Fremer raved about for bass, HF extension and overall excitement. By sending you the Rouge, I figured I would learn a lot from the assessments by you and the group in this area, using the unmatched XLF speaker for bass and HF both. Of all my amps, I think the group would like the Rouge the best. At $1700 with the better WBT speaker connections, anyone could afford this. Even if your rarefied equipment is more glamorous to talk about and hear, the fact is that most people cannot afford those items, so I believe they would find my Rouge most worthwhile to evaluate.
In order to make this a meaningful endeavor, I make only the following requests. To see how the Rouge compares to your best for transparency, clarity, tonality, dynamics, I ask that you make an A/B shootout with the Rouge vs your best amps in these areas, so that we can all hear it for ourselves, blinded to keep everyone AND ME honest, open minded and unprejudiced. People would vote their preferences and objective findings, the way you conducted your legendary dac shootout. Only 1 or 2 well chosen songs could tell the story, in just 1 round. Of course, in your own private time, put the Rouge through its paces and have fun. I know you will, and especially call your budget minded friends over. Boy, I miss those shootouts. No VAC amps for comparison, please, since I am not interested in tube sweetness or romance, but rather the other parameters I mentioned. How about the Soulution 725 to use as preamp for both amps? The 725 is the preamp which is most revealing. See whether your new SS amp (Block?) is more neutral and transparent than the Constellation. Too bad you don't have the G Essence now--that would have made for a great value shootout between the 2 high value amps.
If this goes well, the next step could be if you bring my Rouge to Mike's place, and do it with either the Boulder 1161 (probably a high value proposition) or the 1160 if he doesn't have the 1161.
I want this to be a great learning experience for all, not to be a vendetta against expensive stuff. If you agree, I'll send you an email with my contact info. I could ship it as early as this Wed, my usual day off. I don't mean to rush you, but if it is convenient, you could email the shipping label tomorrow so I could print it out at work. The following Wed 9/29 at noon, I am getting a dental implant, so I probably won't feel too comfortable that afternoon, so I could definitely ship it in 2 weeks, Oct 5. My most convenient shipper is Fedex, which has the best rates. This $1700 unit won't cost much for insurance.
Thanks, looking forward to this project. |
Thanks. I'll do it tomorrow AM. |
Jetter, LOL!
I give credit to klh007, who said maybe others will be encouraged to send Jay their favorite amps. I have only 1 advantage, since my amp only weighs 23 lbs, is cheap at $1700, so the shipping and insurance costs are low. |
The Rouge is sounding wonderful this AM with the stars aligning for power quality. So much crisp music. I don't want to give it up, but I made a commitment here. I admire Jay for his determination to get on with all his things, so that's what I am doing. I hope I got the email correct, just jayaudiolab without the "s." |
jimmy2615,
I heard the Merrill 114 at home for 1-2 weeks through the generosity of Merrill W himself. He told me the flagship 118 (which Jay heard at home) is a little faster but they have quite similar tonalities. To me, the 114 was highly romantic and sweet, like a great classic tube amp with good HF extension. But I preferred the tonal balance of the prior flagship, Veritas, which was leaner and more neutral, more like my reference Mytek Brooklyn Amp. My Rouge is dynamic, approximately like the 114, but more neutral. It has the neutral midrange/HF tonality of my Mytek, with more fullness and dynamics. That's why I think the group will like the Rouge better than my Mytek.
My top reference for low power is my unique Bryston 2.5B SST2, a rare bird which is not at all like the more powerful Bryston SST2 amps, or the earlier series. I totally agree with Jay that in general, Bryston is mediocre, but my unique Bryston is different and has the most clarity and neutrality of any amp I have heard. Too bad it is not found on the used market these days. The moral of this paragraph is that each product has to be judged on its own merits. Jay found that the Gryphons had widely diverse sound. There is no such thing as class D having a certain sound. GaN has technical merits, and I was surprised to find the Merrill 114 had a very warm sound. The most popular GaN amp currently is the $3K LSA Voyager. People are going ape over it, and my impression from the Voyager thread is that it may have the most detail of any GaN amp. So even within GaN, there are no generalizations so far. I hope yyzsantabarbara will send Jay his ricevs' modded Voyager soon. It will be a whale of a time here. |
Jay, I brought my amp to Fedex this AM. They estimated delivery to you next Wed. Prepare your buddies for a party with it the following weekend. I enclosed the stock power cord which I never used, but you can use your best cables and ancillaries on it.
BTW, your new SS amp sounds great in that video. Is it faster and more neutral than the Constellation? I want to hear the Rouge vs whichever is more neutral, so we can see which does clarity/neutrality better. Since you love Metallica, that would be great to hear for yourself and in the shootout.
Everything is relative, as the more neutral of the neutrals will show the other one to be relatively warm. That's why there is often disagreement about whether anything is warm or neutral. It depends on your reference. |
yyz,
Most important, first hear the modded Voyager for yourself, comparing to your Benchmark AHB2. I can let Jay use the Rouge for a while, so we all can hear how all these great amps compare. The AHB2 is slightly at a disadvantage because of its limited power in stereo, but the XLF is very efficient at 92 dB so I think the stereo AHB2 will do just fine for almost all music. So you can still enjoy your beloved single AHB2 and Jay could get your other AHB2. Although I never heard 2 mono AHB2's, my guess from comments is that at low/medium power, it is more full and rounded than the stereo AHB2. The Rouge and Voyager are both powerhouses as you know. |
Jay,
Jimmy's demo piece, Aaron Copland's Fanfare for the Common Man, is a 3 min extravaganza. It starts with the drum thwack--best test of deep and tight bass that your XLF should display with the right electronics. Later there are high intensity trumpets and other brass for midrange/HF dynamics. The ending is a wallop of everything. Frankly, I'm surprised that the single AHB2 handles all this, although Jimmy says he doesn't listen too loud. I can't do justice to this piece on my delicate electrostatics, LOL. |
jimmy2615,
At low/medium power where the single AHB2 is comfortable, how do the 2 mono AHB2's compare to the stereo AHB2? Tonal balance, transparency, detail? |
The VAC's are for romantic moods; the secret monos are for excitement. It depends on which music you listen to. |
Yup, I am on the fringe with my extreme clarity desire, with sacrifice of bass. My second favorite speaker is the GTA planar/ribbon, which is much better balanced than my electrostatic, although for me its clarity is not at the level of mine. The footer differences are nowhere as great as the difference in the speakers, although I have an open mind that footers are significant. But proper vibration control is most important to eliminate distortion which overlays the pure sound from the electronics or speakers. Some people "like" this distortion, which is heard as "musicality" and warmth. But authentic musicality is the perception of the complexities of music in its fullest detail. I am not referring to the false "detail" of artificial sound effects, but the natural detail of the music. This is shown by tight bass, for example, which comes across as less full or dynamic. It takes time to get used to this effect, which at first some people don't like. But once you appreciate more of the real, natural music, you realize that it is the desirable effect. It's like your mother who said to you as a child, "eat your vegetables." Candy tastes better, but she knew you would appreciate your better health later on by eating healthier. |
Jay,
Agree on your methodology. Just please use either the undisclosed monos or the Constellation. I want to see (blinded of course) how my amp compares in clarity/transparency/spatiality/tonal balance to your reference SS amps, either one of them. My Rouge amp has NO tubelike qualities, so it will be obvious if you A/B with the VAC, mostly nullifying the value of this A/B. Similarly, using the ARC preamp will inject some tubelike sound.
So the best approach would be to use the 725 preamp, followed by the undisclosed preamp, or even DAC direct, your choice. That's what I originally requested when I sent you the amp.
For me, I would go with 725 + Constellation, or DAC direct + Constellation, vs 725 + Rouge, or DAC direct + Rouge, respectively. If all that is too ruthless for you, go with undisclosed preamp + Connie vs undisclosed preamp + Rouge. If the undisclosed monos are more ruthless than the Connie, go with the Connie, but my hunch is that the 725 + undisclosed monos vs 725 + Rouge would be my ultimate preference.
You generously paid for the shipping and your time, so you are entitled to do what you like. For the next week or so, just enjoy my amp yourself and with your friends, and then decide which of your preamps, DAC direct and SS amps to use for the video A/B. The amp doesn't need warmup. I can even say that it has essentially the same character at 450 hours that it had in the beginning. Thanks.
Happy listening, as jafant always says. |
Jay,
Your own real world listening is more valid than my speculations. Put your best SS foot forward. If you find that your undisclosed preamp + amp has the best synergy and you proudly display that combo as your best SS, match me up in a friendly duel with that same preamp + my Rouge (no idea if there is synergy). I liked your recent video with your undisclosed combo. My Rouge is honored to be on the Critical Mass stand that is 3x its price, thank you. At home, I just had it on a 1" plywood board on the floor, LOL. Same Wireworld XLR's and speaker cables, of course. |
zprr,
I am even considering visiting Jay and posing with him. Two fit men with different presentations--light and heavy weights, LOL. Jay gets the front cover of the magazine, I get the back cover. |
Yes, DAC direct is most logical, as logydoghan says. We don't have to worry about synergy with the undisclosed preamp + amp vs lack of synergy with undisclosed preamp + mine. The fewer the number of variables, the better. For A/B'ing at moderate SPL's, the preamp isn't necessary. DAC direct gives maximum purity from either amp. Both amps are powerful. |
The bottom line is that Jay will be doing the listening and will choose whichever of his SS amps and preamps make him comfortable. I just would like to avoid any tube equipment, because I am entering my amp as a strong contender for clarity/neutrality/dynamics. For ultimate clarity, I have no doubt that DAC direct will bring out the best of my amp and his amp. If Jay is uncomfortable about brightness in his system, he said that the Constellation has a little warmth, and he still highly rated it #2 behind #1 which is Boulder. I would be happy with Constellation, and then DAC direct shouldn't make him uncomfortable. My guess is that the Wireworld XLR's are warmer sounding than the Synergistic's but I could be wrong on that. Still, it would be nice for him to say whether the undisclosed amp is more revealing/neutral than the Constellation, since that affects whether he wants to do DAC direct. He hasn't yet rated the undisclosed amp, so that is an unknown to us. After my 1st choice of DAC direct, 2nd choice would be 725, 3rd and last choice would be the undisclosed preamp.
Brightness won't be a problem if the SPL's are modest for this A/B.
Jay, I hope you have already heard my amp for yourself, so you will have some insight of what you want to do. To test loud dynamics, you can include a song that doesn't have much HF percussion, so any brightness won't bother you for this song. For other songs with lots of HF brilliance, the SPL's will be modest so you won't suffer. Even a brilliant song of Metallica is satisfying at modest levels. I suggest some tasteful Nils Lofgren--you can avoid "Keith don't go," or "Man in the Moon" if you are sick of them. Female voice would be good also. Let's hear some good acoustic guitar twangs, HF percussion like chimes, bells, triangles, as with Lofgren or female voices.
Thanks for everyone's thoughts. Thanks Jay for your efforts. |
Jay, you love the Transparent XLR's and speaker cables so much, that it would be worthwhile to speak with Transparent and find out whether they can be used between any preamp and amp. Long after my A/B is done, you will want to know this for your own testing of other electronics that you try in the future. On the other hand, If the Transparent between preamp and amp is uniquely calibrated for that combo, then I agree that for this A/B it is wise to use the Wireworld and your cheap speaker cables to avoid apples/oranges variability.
Still, the dynamic swings will mostly relate to the amps, which are both powerful. Your XLF's are very efficient, so for most of the songs, little of their power reserves will be challenged. Even with my delicate electrostatics, I don't use much power at the modest SPL's I listen at. If I use a mere 20 watts on some orchestral material, this Rouge revealed to me how the Mytek is dynamically compressed by comparison. And that is with my Rane EQ with little gain acting as a preamp. That's why I say that for our purposes, DAC direct will be sufficiently capable of providing decent dynamics. This DAC's electronics are likely better than my Rane's. And we can have the maximum clarity from both amps to make this A/B listening exercise much easier and revealing.
Again, your listening with my Rouge amp now will give you the authority to know what is best, before you embark on the formal video A/B for us. |
yyzsantabarbara has had delays from stupid Fedex. He expects to listen to his ricevs' modded Voyager GaN starting Mon. He offered to send Jay this amp as well as the Benchmark AHB2. I know the stereo AHB2 sound. It has wonderful purity, much like my Mytek, but it is leaner than my Rouge. I sent Jay the Rouge because I knew it will have more appeal to this group of people. Jay probably will find the stereo AHB2 too lean for him, but yyz and jimmy both say that 2 mono AHB2's are much more dynamic. |
Jay,
Impressive 950 lbs leg press. Don't lock your knees--arthritis danger. I thought you were going easy because of 4 herniated discs in your back. I hope you develop a likeness for these good class D amps. The Rouge is only 23 lbs, Voyager similar. Your 5 year old daughter could carry my 6 lb Mytek. |
Jay,
I am surprised you changed your mind and decided to use Transparent (T) XLR's between the DAC and undisclosed preamp, and then between the preamp and amps. But I want you to show your favorite electronics in the best light, which seems to be with the T's. Perhaps my Rouge will also be shown in the same best light, although it is unknown whether the T which is tuned for your system will also give the same benefits for my amp, which is what we were concerned about.
I know that it is lots of work to make the A/B video with all the recording, level matching, editing, etc, and you only want to do it once, which I still appreciate. But informal listening with cable swapping is more fun. My amp doesn't need warmup, the music stops within 1 second of turning the amp off, and I suppose the amp can be turned on again after 30 min while you listen to the other amp. So try the Wideworld XLR cables to see if you find the same comparative differences between my Rouge and your undisclosed amp. Take your time, and have fun with your buddies doing this, playing lots of music. You have already seen how the Rouge is respectable, so it should be fun. I wouldn't want you to do this if I thought the Rouge would be mediocre and you would hate it. If you find that the same differences apply with either the Wireworld or the T's, and you find that the T's make both my amp and yours sound better, then go for the T setup to record the video A/B. I won't care if you get around to the video next week. More important is that you have fun and we all learn something.
Aside from this project, it is important for you to find out whether the T's let lots of other electronics offer the same benefits as with your present setup. We all know that nothing stays with you very long, with the possible exception of the XLF. So how will you feel trying to sell the T's with the caveat that they don't have the same benefits in buyers' systems? If you do the above with different amps and preamps, and the T doesn't have to be sent back to the company for retuning, that is a tremendous advantage for your buyer.
I welcome another shootout between yyz's modded Voyager GaN and my Rouge in Jay's system. People are going ape about the Voyager. In fact, because of the Voyager's sweetness combined with excellent detail and dynamics, I won't be surprised if people here pronounce it as the best challenger to the giants. Just keep the Rouge until the Voyager and possibly others are heard. What a party! |
In the 70's, Ampzilla was popular as a warmish SS amp, when most SS amps were awful. I was a tube guy then. Jim Bongiorno was a colorful character. The 200 W/ch Ampzilla was a powerhouse then, Son of Ampzilla 100W/ch, Grandson 50W/ch. I don't know how the 2000's have changed. |
viber7,
Thanks for commenting, especially since you know classical music, like me. I don’t have experience comparing stereo amps to their strapped mono versions, so accept your findings for now. Same applies to class A vs AB, or having more power reserves.
What is your experience with HF material, like string orchestra, quartets, solo violin? Organ music has a lower freq tonal balance, although some HF content to 9 kHz is present. I have found that cables or electronics which exhibit more depth and spatiality unfortunately tend to have rolled off HF. This is especially true with tube electronics, and you wisely point out that tube amps create contrived euphonic space. I’ll add that this euphonic space is accompanied by larger images, which is really distortion. The actual image of the real instrument is smaller and more focused, and these tube and euphonic SS amps add an overlay of bloating which is distortion. I know the stereo Benchmark AHB2 well from 2 months of audition at home. It has the finest resolution and clarity over the entire freq range. However, its dynamics esp in low freq are compromised. Bass is tight but restrained.
I have struggled with the duality/paradox that AHB2 type amps are detailed but less dynamic, whereas powerful SS amps are less detailed but more dynamic. My Rouge is a happy marriage of detail and dynamics in my system.
I thank Jay for doing a blind A/B so there won’t be any bias for any listener, including you and me. Please comment on your findings and which preference you have. I will just describe what I hear, say which one I prefer, but not venture a guess as to which one is my Rouge. When Jay reveals it later after we all post our findings, that’s when the learning will take place. Heads may roll.
Speaking of live unamplified music, sitting closer shows greater detail but less depth and hall ambience, whereas sitting further back shows less detail but more hall ambience and depth. Some recordings have a close perspective, others the opposite. We don't actually know what the engineers designed, but we can choose electronics that show what we want--either close or more distant. |
I think I recall that Jay said that his expensive Boulder amps and such didn't benefit from the Critical Mass stands because their casework is first rate. Perhaps more flimsy amps will. He is placing my Rouge amp on the CM stands, which is probably better than when I had them on 1" plywood on the floor at home. For the shootout, his amps are on the Artesania, so maybe they have an advantage, but I respect his wishes to avoid the hassle of lifting his heavy amps off the Artesania and then on again. |
ricred1,
My point exactly. I reserve final judgment until after hearing the next 2 videos with more challenging music, and my better iMac computer at home. I'll also try the PC at work.
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Jay,
If convenient for you, it would be most helpful to have each video show one song on amp A and B. Maybe that's your plan. That way the A/B can be meaningful for each song on each video. Alternatively, instead of 3 videos, you can make 1 long video with 3 songs in sequence on amp A, then the 3 songs on amp B. The best sequence would be song 1 on A followed by B, song 2 on A followed by B, etc. I can give the timings when each song begins on which amp. I like to call attention to percussion at for example, 1:10 on A and 4:20 on B when I comment objectively on this particular sound, etc. Other people can say, "listen to the male voice at 1:20 on A and 4:30 on B. This is what I hear, and I prefer A," etc.
On the other hand, for the sake of more attention on YT, maybe your idea of 3 short videos is best. Perhaps release each video separated by at least 1 day. Allow plenty of time for people to hear everything on different computer systems if needed. Then next weekend, reveal the identities of A and B. Right now, only you know whether the differences are a wipeout or subtle. Don't tell until next weekend--maximum shock and suspense!
Excellent headline title for YT as you said, "Will a $1700 Class D defeat 200 watts Class A? Can a $1700 dollar amp unseat amplifiers costing 35-40 times more if it's set up with a high end supporting cast?" (You might say, "a $1700 class D 600/1200 watt" if you want.)
Thanks for all your efforts.
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Today I am away, using an iMac which has significantly rolled off HF compared to my iMac at home. So far, I find negligible differences between presentations 1 and 2. I agree with Jay that #2 may be recorded slightly softer than #1, but the volume steps on my keyboard are too coarse, so when I boost #2 by 1 notch it is too loud.
I agree with ricevs that better recordings would be useful. However, if one amp blew away the other, even mediocre recordings would be able to show the differences. I like the idea that Jay started with this modest quality recording, in order to stimulate us to do careful listening. Later I am sure the songs will be more impressive in their dynamics and wideband sound effects, so it will be easier to differentiate the two amps.
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ricevs,
I have loved the Jazz at the Pawnshop recording for a long time. Years ago, on a visit to Stockholm, I went inside the Stampen, the jazz club where it was recorded. The stage was tiny, and there were only a few tables. The recording is LIVE and lively, the kind I really love. It is close and intimate, confirmed by what I saw in the room. Too bad I couldn't hear a performance when I went.
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Many interesting comments on the YT channel. One person said that #1 is 1.3 dB louder than #2. In general, when I listen to anything at a comfortable moderate level, the one with a slightly lower SPL sounds more focused and detailed. The louder one has more warmth and fuzziness, with greater homogenization because it is too loud. Of course, if one were much louder by 5 dB or so, there wouldn't be the visceral satisfaction from the other which is much lower volume. So try the best you can to adjust the SPL when comparing the same section of each presentation. Listen at a moderate level for maximum discernment.
The Rouge gain is 25.8 dB. I can look up the gain spec for what I think is the undisclosed amp. If it is also 26 dB, close enough, there is still some uncertainty because if the amps have different tonal balances, the perception of the volume will be different depending on the music. For example, bass dominant music will be louder from the amp with a more bass dominant amp. That's why ultimately everything must be judged by ear. Measurements get you in the ball park, but fine tuning is done by ear.
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Yes, the Rouge Audio Design amp model is the Studio N10-DM, not the tube company Rogue. The base price is 1220 euros. I added WBT speaker connectors for additional 110 euros, and better XLR female connectors for a few euros. The complete costs with international shipping were $1709. There were no customs duties. This is essentially the same amp as the highly regarded Legacy iv2 which retails for almost $5000. As ricevs says, no 2 amps are precisely identical, because of different wiring, chassis, etc.
I am falling in love with this song--what is it?
On an HP PC, the general sound of all music is bass shy with extreme HF emphasis, like an old tiny transistor radio at the beach or a cell phone. Considering the artificiality of this PC sound with the HF emphasis, I can more reliably tell the differences between #1 and #2. At the most passionate parts of the song at 2:20 and 5:58 lasting about 20 seconds each, I perceive that #1 is more brilliant by a HAIR, or a clump of hair, maybe. HF are slightly more prominent in #1. This suits the passion of a female singer when she pushes the loudness of her voice. Even men when singing louder can reach higher freq notes than when singing at lower volume. High pitched females with powerful voices can shatter glass. People may LIKE rounded sound to relax with, but passion is related to energy, like it or not. So for me, #1 brings out more raw passion.
My preference is #1, and I will stick my neck out and guess it is my Rouge. I won't be shamed if I am wrong and the Rouge is #2, since this is still a difficult A/B. I await the next 2 videos.
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ricred1,
Agree with your last post. At home, I have cheap XLR's made custom by a now deceased friend who knew my tastes, and the Shunyata Venom HC power cord which retailed for $300. My cheap XLR's are more brilliant than Nordost Frey 2. I enjoy the benefits from the original Shunyata Denali 6000S, worth the money.
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ricred1,
Yes, I would be interested in the Boulder 1161, the one I can lift by myself. It is probably close in quality to the 1160. I hope Mike at Suncoast would be gracious enough to permit an A/B video between the Rouge and 1161 or 1160. These are all high value best buys. By now, the Rouge has been established as respectable by any standard, even if we don't know whether it is #1 or #2 on this shootout. Less than $2K for the Rouge, over $20K for either Boulder. If the Rouge's neutrality is too ruthless for you, you can soften it with ancillary components which you know how to do.
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#2 may be preferred by more listeners than #1, which is OK since this fact merely describes the tastes of Jay's followers. But almost everyone admitted that #2 and #1 are very close. I'm sure that if everyone were privileged to hear them in Jay's system, they would say the differences are greater, but probably still not night and day. Small but significant differences to any live listener? Yes. More to say after the other videos are heard. |
ricevs,
What are your own observations and preferences? Thezaks?
On my better iMac today at home, I heard the same things as yesterday on the PC. #2 is a slightly softer sound which I can understand is preferred by some people on this recording, which is highly processed and artificial. #1 brings out the tizzy aspect more. But the bass response of my iMac is better than the awful PC, although nowhere as good as my headphones. I think I hear the bass as tighter on #1 between 2:20 and 2:30 compared to #2 between 5:58 and 6:10. Tight bass is often associated with more accuracy and detail in higher freq. After the other videos are presented, we'll see what Jay says about the bass in his room from #1 and #2, since his room listening is much more revealing than YT. The best excerpts from this recording start 2:20 for #1 and 5:58 for #2. Listen for about 1 min for this impassioned period, but the concluding softer fade-out is also emotionally moving, which I think the slightly more detailed #1 brings out better. |
Jay,
You can see how much YT attention you get from these shootouts. I hope this encourages you to do more shootouts. I'll listen later to round 2. Are presentations 1 and 2 each the same amps as on round 1? |
