Well guys the panels themselves are at least 4 feet away from the wall behind them. The side of the cabinet is around 1.5ft from the side walls and they are about 7 feet away from each other measuring from the center of each panel. I’m about 9 feet away from them.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Showing 50 responses by jays_audio_lab
Hi All, Tonights video will be about my journey from the very beginning of this thread. I know i have written so much about everything i have owned, but you all have not really had visuals of all this equipment and well i have put together a collage with over 200 pictures of all the different set ups i have owned and the different rooms i have been in (i have moved 4 times). The point of this video is to share a little more with you all and not be criticized about me having one amplifier on top of the other or cables being on the floor, etc, etc. I want to simply show you and open my door a little more to you all. It took me almost 3 hours to put it together so i hope some of you can appreciate this. Stay tuned for the video later tonight and while you are at it, just grab a beer, vodka, tea, etc. Sit back, relax, enjoy and i think this will also will make some of you go: " oh there is the simaudio 860 he talked about, ohh i remember about him talking about that Plinius Odeon in the beginning; ohh that is the boulder 2060 that he rated as the worse amp he has owned", that is the amp i bought from him, etc, etc. That is what i am hoping you all can take away from this and obviously i hope you can find it entertaining because i will also add a little commentary about me. |
You guys are awesome. I'm glad you all can be so intrigued by everything I've said. Let's say for now that I know that soulution has incredible bass control... I will leave it at that. I'm going to try to film a video tonight that will show what is coming next with the exception of the mystery amp that I am breaking in... |
So I just got done listening to them. Last night I was listening through an optical cable connected to the esoteric. I managed to keep them almost 60 inches off the back wall measuring from the panel and enough toe in to where the flashlight shines on the inner third and almost where I joins the second third of the panel. I played music and thought they really sounded better so today I went from listening via optical and used the platinum usb and coming from my MacBook. The impression is that now things sound more detailed. More of everything. It’s impressive how this speaker lets me hear when going from a cheap optical to a high end usb. I was the first one Believe there wouldn’t be any changes by using usb and let me tell you I was wrong. It’s almost like you can’t hide from this speaker. The sound is so gigantic that it’s much easier to pick up the changes in sound right away. Without a doubt, this speaker won’t forgive poor recordings. I’m telling you, old cds from the 90s sound less detailed and a little dull. It’s like going to your 4K tv right now and try to play a movie from 1990. You would immediately see the drastic change in detail and resolution. That’s the same here. You need to have quality music to really be like holy sh@t! When you listen to it or else you won’t be impressed. It will still sound big but it won’t have the huge detailed sound. |
Mikepaul: id have the liquor of your choice here so we can have fun man. I’m all about enjoying this hobby and I think the Neolith could be the ticket..... anyhow, what would be a better choice for these speakers: a pair of 1.2kw or four 601s to biamp them? state your reasoning !!! Let me know your thoughts |
Greyhound: I agree with your comments about the highs. That said, I think there’s one element here that we are all not mentioning: we need to allow our ears to adjust to the new sound. I believe that there needs to be an adjustment period in which your ears need to capture what’s happening. When I first sat down to hear the Neolith I felt like the highs lacked detail. I moved them forward about a foot and more detail began to emerge. This speaker is the only speaker I’ve owned that makes you feel as if the mids are floating in the air between the speakers. The size of the instruments is much larger; The mid bass is present and with lots of energy. The bass is more than you could ask for. Whats the biggest drawback so far? Well it’s that the speaker is like a huge canvas. It will expose everything you draw on it and will let you hear it. If you enjoy older recordings that aren’t perfect then be prepared to hear them not so perfect to the point that you feel as if the speaker sounds like sh@t. Is it as dynamic as a Wilson Audio? No it is not but it is more dynamic than any other electrostatic I’ve owned. No speaker has been more dynamic than Wilson. Not even magico. Wilson audio had dynamics that sometimes made you jump out of your chair. However, the bass was another story... my biggest issue I believe is power. I need serious juice and current. I will tell you that if you all lived close by and wanted to have my opinion about how good is the bass on an amp you have, I’d tell you to bring it and connect it to the Neolith. You would find out right away. For those of you who don’t know, the Neolith does not have powered woofers. It has passive 15 inch and 12 inch drivers. the amp needs to do all the work. |
Ok guys I hope you all enjoy this video. I spent hours trying to organize my pictures and putting them in order for continuity plus adding captions etc. I hope you all enjoy it and hopefully YouTube doesn't take it down. https://youtu.be/YW8wjRu9BoY |
Mikepaul: so right now I can’t really say I’ve heard these speakers to the fullest. I don’t have enough current. There’s a difference between having an amp that can drive a speaker and one that can make them sing. Just because an amp can drive a speaker doesn’t mean it can make it sing. Right now I have integrateds that sound awesome but I won’t know how much better these speakers will get until they have more break in and more power. Block audio monoblocks will be demoed in my home the week of thanksgiving I hope. 200 watts class a will/should make a serious improvement. |
Techno: you’re summarizing preliminary information.... I said it above, the speakers are still: 1. on wheels rather than spikes which will allow me to tilt them forward and lower them in order to get the panels to hit you in more of direct angle. 2. All I’ve done is move them 5 ft from the front all. I’ve not began to move stuff out of wall that’s behind them 3. Yes, anyone buying a speaker of this caliber should expect to bring the rest of the set up to the same level. Do you buy a porsche gt and expect it to grip the road the same if you used Chinese tires? Do you expect a race engine to produce the same horsepower on 87 octane Rather than using the recommended race fuel? 4. THe sweet spot is far from narrow. That was one of my first comments above. 5. Why would anyone compare the highs from a panel against the highs of a beryllium tweeter? Two totally different technologies. It becomes a matter of flavor at this point. This experience is indeed what I signed up for. I wanted to experience with my own ears the trade offs from different speakers. I love Wilson’s dynamics, hate its bass. I love mágicos highs and don’t love its bass. I love the bass/mids from the Neolith but highs will need to be fixed to my liking by experimenting with more combos. The Neolith demolishes the mids and lows from the magico s5mk2 and Wilson sasha2 even if you used a pair of Sasha’s and s5mk2s playing all at once they still won’t come close to the fullness of the Neolith. The mids from the Neolith are on a whole different tier group. |
I don’t think there’s any plug and play on any car either. I’ll go back to the car analogy. Are You familiar with the dodge demon? It claims to have crazy hp and that It can run a 1/4 mile in 9 seconds. That said, find me one that has ran that 1/4 mile yet. You need seat time, learn how to launch it off the line and keep tweaking its suspension and launch control and do a proper burnout in order to see if you can crack 9s in the quarter of a mile. Just because the car can run 9s, it doesn’t mean my grandma can run 9s in it too. This has been the issue with the Neolith. As good as it is, it can still sound like a turd if you don’t have the proper set up. There’s no reference speaker that is idiot proof my man. the more of a “reference” a speaker is, the more attention you need to pay to it. It’s easy for manufacturers to make a speaker sound good with any type of music. They simply shoot for a specific sound signature across the board and that’s it. Ive only owned the speakers for 3 days. I can’t say I know everything about it yet. |
I’ve owned those pieces. I am going to say that you are better off with a Luxman 900u. Those pl500s are very very good speakers. THe 1.2kw are unnecessary but what I remember is that the pl500s sounded really good biamped. Try getting a second Hegel and do vertical biamping with them. The platinum will be far better sounding if you do it this way. |
Eversaudio: what speakers and what preamp do you have ? Hegel is good and better value than pass 350.8. Quite frankly, I’m somewhat disappointed with the 350.8. Owned it twice and it didn’t make any sort of impression other than its construction. I feel like the .5 pass amps were more enjoyable. They had more sweetness and nice mids although the lows weren’t great but it was just a more enjoyable series. I don’t plan on getting more .8 pass amps unless I strike a deal on a 200.8 or 600.8. Other than that, I’m done with pass. The Hegel h30 is FAR FAAAAAAR a better amp for the money than the 350.8. |
Having owned a lot of Logan’s, I don’t seem to detect anything sluggish about the speakers nor do I hear any lack of slam/dynamics. That said, no it’s no Wilson which I still feel is the most dynamic speaker I’ve owned to the point that it almost startles you. Both, Wilson and magico do things differently. The Neolith makes the vocals and instruments linger longer. I’ve always said it, you can’t have a small speaker put up any sort of fight to something as massive as the Neolith. You can’t have any crocodile dare to fight a hippo (true fact actually) because it’s too massive to even put a dent on it with a bite. I can understand the clx having something to say about the Neolith but see it’s also a big panel. As far as bass, no the clx would need bass to compete. Lastly, let’s not forget that the Neolith has adjustable crossovers that allow you to dial in the front firing woofer based on the distance between you and the speaker and you can also dial how much bass you want out of it (-8db, -4db, 0db). I currently have it at -8db which is enough bass for me. Let’s try and see what happens once more horsepower arrives. |
The Neoliths deserve world class amps. You can’t skimp on it. I have 2 integrateds That do the job fine but I know deep down I’ve not heard tbe neoltihs yet. I love knowing I get to play with them and try all sorts of amps and also you all need to remember one thing: if I had bought Alexia 2, I would have bought dag 400s and called it a day because that’s a known combo with amazing synergy. The fact that I bought Neoliths will allow me to keep trying many more amps in order to keep this thread alive. They become “instruments” rather than speakers. They need careful attention and will show kinks in any amplifiers armor. |
@keithr i personally don't think there is a better amp for under $15k msrp that beats the luxman 900u. If one exists, i have not had the pleasure of owning it. To me that is the best amp under $15 and if you want to attempt to improve upon it, you need to be looking at amps that are more money. For example, my Gryphon Colosseum is a better amp than my luxman, but it is $50,000 msrp. The Dag S250 could be an amp that you might want to look into. It has more bass control than the luxman 900u and it has similar sound signature to the 900u (smooth, never edgy, musical, etc, etc). |
Dac instead of Preamp? i have mentioned a few things about this, but today i wanted to give a few pointers when trying to make a decision about using a DAC as a preamp: 1. YOU MUST BUY THE BEST POWERCORD YOU CAN AFFORD FOR THE DAC 2. Power conditioners HELP BIG TIME when you detect a bit of brightness coming through. They help taming the top end while still allowing for a lot of information to come through 3. DO NOT under ANY circumstances overlook your interconnects. I recommend smooth sounding interconnects such as wireworld platinum for example. 4. Before you go and buy a dac to use as a preamp, PLEASE MAKE SURE you look at the gain you have on the amps you own. For instance, my Gryphon has 31db of gain which means it does not need a ton of juice to get loud. Most amps average 26db, but i would recommend amps that have more gain than the average 26db. 5. Speaker efficiency is also VERY IMPORTANT. If a speaker is hard to drive, it needs a commanding power amp that will rely on a great preamp/dac to control it. If the dac you choose is a mismatch with your amp and your speakers are hard to drive, THIS WILL NOT WORK. Remember those 5 pointers above when choosing a dac as a preamp. Avoid straining the DAC's volume control as much as possible (meaning having to turn it way up to get enough volume going) or it will result in brightness. Hope this helps! . |
kren it depends who you ask. i know some people who would prefer the pass labs int250 over the luxman 590mk2. i personally find the luxman better tonally speaking. The pass int250 would be able to drive tougher loads, but the bass was too loose in my opinion. Can anything under 12k beat the luxman 590? hmmm... if i go by what i have owned, i don't think so to be honest. Not even separates that msrp for a total of 12k for the amp/preamp. |
Neolith to techno dude: although I’m built in Canada, I’ve got this thing about being large and in charge that only certain crazy audiophiles dare to try which is why I always come back to my mother land :) Remember, I don’t have but maybe a week with them. Home runs don’t really exist at this level. You still need “seat time” and if I win or fail, I will still manage to speak about the Neolith at length. I’ll be able to say why It did not work or why it is unbelievable and the reasons why some stupid people can’t get it to sound right. Remember, I’ve never disliked panels. They can be tricky to place correctly, but once you do then it’s hard to beat them. Owning the Neolith adds an incredible amount of value to my resume. Coming from Polk audio lsi7 and now sitting with Neoliths for some reason makes the song “ started from the bottom now we here” play in my head Theres a reason why Dale Earnhardt junior couldn’t fill his dad’s shoes. You know the difference between talent and skill? Talent you have naturally, but skill only comes from hours and hours of beating on your craft. I’m trying to build the latter :) |
Remember, I tried this same thing with the vivid audio g1 and magico. Both sounded like different animals with more power and the Neoliths are far but far more difficult to drive. Not many speakers drop to 0.5ohms. The high frequencies in the Neolith will suffer since it’s the most demanding part of the speaker. |
It has nothing to do with dynamics. And as far as physics, I can believe a lot of it but not always 100% true. For instance, how many times have doctors told a patient “he won’t be able to ever walk again” then fast forward 3 years and the person is doing jumping jacks and running marathons. Where’s the logic there? No explanation other than sheer will power. |
The Neoliths have been played for May be 10 -12 hours since they arrived. I’ve been busy and just came back from vacation 30 min ago. I was updating this while I was gone for a full week so tonight I get to play again. Neoliths will now be played more often and the slow process will begin. I have a list of amps I need to try with them in the next few months. It could also be that I just played with high end woofer/tweeters for long enough over the past year that they grew on me and now that I’m making my way to panels I realize they won’t win me back anymore. That’s also a possibility that we all haven’t thought about. Maybe this is just how panels sounded for me before I got into the Wilson’s, magicos,vivid audios and now I am intoxicated by their sound? Too many variables guys to make a decision so early in this game. If living with Wilson, magico, vivid, etc all this time changed my flavor of sound, then it could explain why my initial impression of the Neolith is what it is. Maybe I’m no longer an electrostatic guy ? In any case, this would not mean the Neoliths failed me. It could have been the same exact thing with the 15a, clx etc. We would never know. Maybe this is a learning experience that I may have been converted and now I won’t go back to panels ever again. Right now there’s no tweeter/woofer that grabs my attention. If I were to go back to speakers, I may go back to Wilson audio and try Alexia 2s and possibly magic m3 right after. However, my mind is far from being there. I still have so much to do here. |
Thanks @pokey77 i want to keep going with it. Right now I’m playing with the Neoliths as I Type this. I want to keep pushing through and to keep things simple, I’m going to just play with different xlr cables that I have here just to see what happens. The Neolith, once again, has shown Me today that it won’t forgive crappy recordings. It won’t forgive anyone with such songs. What I’m trying to do is to dial them in better and just play with cables that I have here while I wait for more horsepower in the next few weeks. |
Or I could just use the tone controls on the Dag and fix the issue instantly lol. I actually just did that and it sounds more like what I want out of the Neolith. No need to mess around with cables or powercords or nothing. its so shocking to hear the change in sound to be honest. It’s mind boggling how muffled they sound when using no tone controls but as soon as I push a button on the remote to engage them, BOOM. It’s like a whole new speaker. Sounds spectacular when boosting the treble to about +4 and the bass to 2+. It’s crazy intoxicating to use it. You don’t want to play it flat anymore. Tone controls make the highs sound almost very “beryllium” like but actually even better without any fatigue. |
The tone controls allow you to dial them how you want them to be. Granted, I’m sure I can get them to sound better by switching a few things out but that is one expensive exercise and using tone controls is not. These same controls would have been awesome on the magico as well because I could have turned the treble slightly down and on the Sasha 2s I would have added a little more treble. I actually had someone come over when I had the Sasha 2s who asked me if I can turn the treble up a little. I agree with that. They could have used more treble. This is another reason WHY I’ve been telling everyone who owns tbe Luxman 900u to use the matching preamp. It has tone controls as well. The more I play with the momentum, the more I find it appealing and versatile in so many ways. |
Well guys, tonight is one of those nights where the music is taking me away. I have been sitting here for about 3 hours listening to music and i keep going song after song and after song around 85db. The full momentum setup has me floating right now with delicacy, musicality, fullness, impact, clarity. The funny thing is that i sat down around noon today to listen to it and it was bright as hell and right now, at 12 midnight it doesn’t not sound bright anymore. Some might say it is because of the whole "grid" conversation or less devices being used in the house, etc, etc. Really interesting to say the least. One comment i can make about the momentum components is that they don’t sweep you off your feet in the first 15 min of listening, but something happens to your brain and ears around 30 min into the listening presentation. It is as if it pulls you in and then you are engaged into what it is doing. More to come on this. |
@mrdecibel dont stop posting. Any help or feedback is read by me. I may not respond to everyone here because I’d spent many hours of my day but I’m reading everyone’s comments/feedback. The Neolith is just a huge monster that needs more attention than I anticipated. I can honestly say I think I know why some people didn’t like this speaker when they first heard it. It is so faithful to the recording and so dependent on everything else connected to it that it will kill your hopes and dreams if you don’t obey what it needs. I am simply trying to get somewhere better with it by trial and error. I’m in no rush to make a decision. Yes if I can’t make them sing then I won’t ever buy panels again and will focus on tweeter/woofer speakers. Every single review I’ve read always states they need a lot of power to sound best. I gotta be fair here and do that plus spike them which will allow the panel to sit about 1.5 inches lower to the ground and also enable me to tilt the speakers forward in order to create far better imaging. My ears are about 37-38 inches off the floor and I’m about 8ft away from the speakers. This is making me think that I’m probably sitting too low which is why I’m not getting what I should be getting from them either. Still a lot more to do here. |
Ok so this is an update for those of you who own panels. DO NOT connect their power cords into any power conditioner. I had both connected to my p20 and I just unplugged them and went straight into my 20 amp outlets and the change was noticeable. The sound became larger and almost like it wraps behind my head. I also tried the Wireworld silver 7 power cords with the Neoliths and I feel like they don’t work well. The Neolith come with some aftermarket powercords and they seem to focus better. This is getting interesting. The more I play with cables, the more I can hear things change. |
Review #1 from audioholics: Pros
Review #2 (mine)
|
Next tweak will be to remove any cabinets behind the Neoliths. I want the walls behind the speakers to be empty with the exception of the tv. Greyhound: Diana Krall, Karen Souza, Sarah Mclachlan, Santana, the cars, lynyrd skynyrd, etc etc etc. How do they sound? They sound best with electronic music with tons of bottom end. Think deadmau5, tiesto, Calvin Harris, etc. That type of music sounds like I’m at the live concert. Incredible to say the least. |
grey9hound: so what you are saying is that if you have a Bugatti Veyron in your garage right now, 16 cylinders, $10,000 for an oil change, $50k for all 4 tires, etc, etc, you then would be ok going to a Honda Civic with a turbo engine because the tires are cheap, it puts out 700 hp hp, and it can also go 200mph per hour like the Veyron right? (although it would take the civic about 3 hours to get up to 200mph) Nobody said expensive stuff is what is needed. I simply said that this speaker needs quality amplification and through my experience with many amps, these amps are never cheap. It was only implying that these speakers take quality amplification the same way a Porsche GT needs the crazy expensive tires to be able to go what it does or else you will be spinning tires each time you put the pedal to the metal. I am somewhat "spinning tires" right now until i try more current, more wattage. I tried this exercise with the vividi audio g1s already. |