I know other folks have also guessed the SF, so I will be different and go with the Kharma Midi. Dave
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@mrdecibel - well and nicely said, and I do agree about the value of a reviewer that spends months on a product to allow sufficient break in and evaluation of a product. That is one form of reviewing that I do appreciate.
This thread, in my opinion, is a different kind of reviewing process, and another one that adds value for me. It's more of a journey, chocked full of product comparisons and descriptions of sonics. Yes, the pace is quicker, but that is part of the excitement.
Dave
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WC, Since you are getting all of this SR gear, one more thing to try would be their duplex outlets. Very low cost compared to the other items you are getting. I would at least try the outlets where you have components plugged directly into the wall. They have the new Orange UEF outlet, which is their top of the line. Dave
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kren0006, The manufacturer recommended leaving the amp on, and that the process of turning on and off repeatedly over time will have more impact on the longevity than just leaving it on all the time. Dave
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@4425 - I completely agree with you - when my system is taken apart, it can take a few days to get back to its peak performance.
@whitecamaross - I had seen you mention that you gave the Pass Labs X350.8 two hours and then evaluated it. I didn't know if you meant that it was plugged in and given two hours, or if it was already plugged in and just played for two hours. I no longer own Pass Labs gear, but when I did, I would need to give the gear a few days, after being plugged in, in order to best evaluate the performance. Thereafter, if plugged in all the time, it would take anywhere from 30-90 minutes (depending upon what is played) when turned on to sound its best. Continuing to enjoy the journey :-)
Dave
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A pair of Adcom GFA-585se amps bridged is another I thought about.
Dave
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If going with Crown amps, QSC could be considered too. A pair of used Emotiva XPR-1's would definitely fit the budget.
If you get the Klipsch speakers that you mentioned, with 99db sensitivity, your existing amps will be just fine.
I'd be curious though what you think of the BATs.
Dave
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kren0006 - Nothing wrong with that - everyone has their preferences - not a big deal. WC - I can understand why many folks would want to get your advice, and I agree that you should charge a fee for your time. You'll be able to provide an unbiased opinion, which is rare nowadays.
Dave
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@whitecamaross - I had suggested the 585se's one page back, and I think it's terrific that you and Larry were able to meet up, and even better that he came to your house. I hope he can get the two Adcoms for you, and perhaps he might even be able to get a BAT for you to try :-)
Dave
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WC, I asked this before, but it was probably lost in the discussion we were having. Have you come to any conclusion yet on the cable elevators?
Dave
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Love your post kps25sc! I do find that viber6 is utilizing WC's comments on gear as part of his logic for what he recommends. True, he has that tilt towards high frequencies and apparent transparency, which can influence his recommendations. However, there are others that make recommendations too and state what they prefer for their sound and/or evaluation preferences - kren0006 on this page, for example. I think it's just part of what makes up a forum and I think if there's disagreement, then it's best to address/question their equipment recommendations/comments, rather than choosing other methods. Dave
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WC, Like kren0006, I'm also curious what you think about the cable risers. Dave
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golfnutz, Keep in mind that eliminating the preamp always seems to bring certain sound characteristics - some say forwardness, some say brightness or thin, etc - so it might not be the new mic.
Dave
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The INT-250 sounded good. Would be interesting to see how much of a difference an Odin power cord would make. Dave
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Same here - says it is private... Dave
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Interesting - based upon what you are saying about the other power/line conditioners, seems like the SR PowerCell is a step above.
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I was wondering the same thing...
Dave
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kren0006, It's all about context, and within the context of what I mentioned, I don't believe it missed the mark at all. The context was - "...others that make recommendations too and state what they prefer for their sound and/or evaluation preferences...".
Regarding viber6, if he's wrong, let's work with him on this and explain why. From what I see, he's using WC's comments as input, applying logic and intelligence, and questioning and commenting and speculating from there. Seems to me he is willing to respond to intelligent discussion, which would probably yield better results than the other routes folks have taken. And, nothing wrong with suggesting another speaker or amp, etc, as many others have also done that throughout the entire thread. We can suggest all we want, but in the end, it's up to WC and what he wants to try. Dave
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I would agree with Charles - if based solely on what WC wrote about the three, my choice would be the Luxman.
Dave
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Great points about the looks. I have known folks who have bought amps for their looks and others who have not bought amps because of looks. Of course, amps that look beautiful to some might not be attractive to others. That must be a tough thing for an amp company.
I myself don't care as much about looks - I am all about performance. If I was looking for something like the Diablo had killer sound in my price-point, I wouldn't care about the looks. In fact, Predator-like looks would do me just fine :-)
Dave
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I'm guessing the fun with integrateds is done. I wonder how the Pass Labs INT-250 would have done? Looking forward to what you have next :-)
Dave
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I guess I'm late to the party here, with regards to the video comparing the Luxman to the Pass - it's now blocked. :-( Dave
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WC, Regarding your most recent video on keeping it real...Thanks for clarifying that most guys that pull the wife card are never going to buy something, but there is a smaller percentage that actually do consult with the wife and make a decision. I’m in the latter category, and I’ve bought nearly every time after discussing with my wife. In fact, my favorite dealer would beat me to it and tell me to discuss with my wife and get back to him.
Dave
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It will be interesting to get your take on those speakers. Some folks have described the persona speakers to be on the bright side, which would not fair well with your desire to turn things up. Maybe the Luxman would sound great with them, since it’s on the smoother side of the spectrum.
Dave
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Love your post WC! Working with viber6 on this, rather than other methods. jetter - not my first rodeo, I've been on many other forums besides audiogon. It's not acting naive, it's just about being decent. I love that WC is being decent to viber6. If that fails, there's always the A'gon moderator.
Dave
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I don't see it there? Did WC do something with the video? Dave
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@klh007
Which video are you looking at? What country are you in?
Dave
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I thought that 1 sounded decent at the beginning, until the voice came in - very distant it seemed. Then 2 was better on the voice - more presence, but didn't have as much otherwise. I ended up liking 3 the best - the best balance for both instruments and voice.
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@pokey77
You have a Vivid imagination :-)
Dave
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When you mention that the Magicos were suggested for your room, is it the current room or the room you've mentioned that you will be moving into next? Thanks,Dave
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@whitecamaross As mentioned above, you could try something like the Lyngdorf Audio TDAi 3400 integrated. It’s 200 watts (8 ohms) and 400 watts (4 ohms), but it’s also a DAC and has RoomPerfect. It would be interesting to see how this unit would do against your heavyweight integrateds and separates. There’s one on Audiogon right now............................ Dave |
MIT cables make sense for the Magico, since their sound signature is known (at least what I've read) to be smoother and/or more laid back and relaxed. Dave |
It is definitely understandable if resale value comes into play - not opening the Sopra 3's could save some money.
However, this is WC we're talking about here :-)
If anyone thinks that one of these two pairs of speakers is the final destination for WC, my bet is that you are absolutely wrong. Sure, he might end up mightily impressed with the Sopras or the Magicos, and he might even keep them for a while, but he will most certainly not keep them long term. It's just not his way of doing things, and let's face it, it's why many of us are here tagging along for the ride. I definitely enjoy it!
With that said, even if WC returns/sells the Sopras without opening them, it does not mean that he won't consider them again in the future.
Thanks for the fun and entertaining ride WC!
Dave
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techno_dude: I respectfully disagree with your statement - "The one someone sells is never the one to get." I've purchased used items that have been absolutely terrific. If the goal is to go for the very best, you better have lots of money and be willing to go through a lot of equipment (like WC), because it's a long-term quest. Not sure anyone will ever get there.
And, I was going to mention something similar to what WC mentioned (actually I did allude to it, if you look at my previous post :-). Just because someone sells something and picks up something different (with the assumption that it's better), does not mean that they won't drop that one for another one.
Dave
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I see the Sopras listing as well. WC is spending time getting the Magicos dialed in, and it seems from the description in the listing that spending time dialing in the Focals would be a benefit for them as well. And, while WC thinks that better amps will help improve the sonics from the Magicos, it might also help to improve the sonics from the Focals. Looking forward to how this progresses for both speakers... Dave
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Even though it was a different song yesterday, I did feel the sound went backwards, as you mentioned. Good speakers/components/cabling is one thing, but getting great synergy is definitely another. Dave
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Actually, the MX is not the way to go, if wanting to use RoomPerfect in a high end 2 channel setup. The preamp section in the MX is not going to be anywhere close to what WC is using for preamps. I am betting that using the MX preamp section is what lost purity, not necessarily the RP. If anything, the RP helps that preamp section sound better than without RP, but it's still not the best preamp section.
The better way to go is to just get the MEN220 and use it in line with the existing amp and preamp. Plus it's a lot less expensive than an MX. Not much to lose trying this out... Dave
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Agreed WC, that would be an awesome shootout. I also agree with others, this is your thread - do it YOUR way. Suggestions are cool, but when those suggestions turn into frustrations, etc, then it's not cool. These are your choices and your ride, and I'm happy to be a passenger. Dave
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viber6 - I agree about the detail in the twang of the guitar on #1, which I was also enjoying. Just not sure about the vocals though. I think it would be a matter of taste between #1 and #3. #2 seems to put the vocal forward at the expense of everything else.
Looking forward to WC’s reveal :-) |
I kind of agree. Folks have the right to voice their opinion about equipment. techno_dude made an opinion - not about someone - but about equipment - he does not favor the BHK stuff. Others might favor it. Some folks think McIntosh is great - others think it is mid-fi. Should the mid-fi opinions be squashed? WC makes opinions all the time - this amp blew away this other amp, etc. viber6 just mentioned that his experience with MIT was they were veiled and they sucked. It's an opinion about "equipment".
Perhaps more constructive would be to provide a counter-opinion, rather than beat up the person that just offered an opinion on equipment. Dave
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Good post WC!
Sorry riaa, if you felt that my reading comprehension skills were/are lacking. I had thought that techno_dude was making an opinion about gear that had to be modified in some way to sound its best. I think that's OK, but maybe I didn't read it right.
I feel folks should be able to offer an opinion, even if they have not actually heard how something performs - whether in their home or somewhere else. The measurement folks, for example, will downplay products, either because of poor measurements or lack of measurements, without ever listening to the product. Some folks will downplay products, because of a company that has poor customer service, etc, etc.
For me, I care more about subjective listening and how it sounds in my home with my setup. I also enjoy subjective opinions from others - often there is a trend to how something performs. The folks I mentioned in the previous paragraph (specifically the measurement folks) do not necessarily operate that way. Even though I don't value their opinions as much, they still have the same right to post their opinion as I do.
If someone offers an opinion without any reason for it, I will often ask how they came to that opinion, rather than beating them up for it. If they still decide not to provide any reason for their opinion, well, then it's fairly obvious to everyone that there may be some sort of agenda. It happens sometimes. HEY WC!! How's that BAT (and any other gear) coming along?
Dave
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Now we're having fun! Good post riaa - loved the references! Dave
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WC, Now that the footers are done for the amps, are you going to try the boulder amps with and without the DAG amps on top of them? It would be interesting to get your take on how much of a difference it makes. Dave
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Is anyone else noticing on the videos lately that you have to turn the volume up when WC is talking and then back down when the music starts? It didn't use to be that way for me. Anyway, just checking to see if it's just me. Thanks,Dave
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@charles1dad I totally agree about dealers being afraid to sell their product to WC - it’s definitely silly. I had an experience like that one time - a guy named Jerry from 10audio-dot-com has interconnects that he makes himself and sells on A’gon and his website. The interconnects are around $100-$150/pair and claimed to beat out a top end Audioquest interconnect that costs much more. I sent him a question about the cables, and I guess he felt that I might have my doubts about the cable. So, he banned me from his ad on Audiogon. I wanted to try them out, but he would not let me.
Of course, that’s new products. They really can’t do anything to keep WC (or the rest of us) from buying used products from non-Dealers :-) Dave
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@viber6 I understand what you explained about objectivity, and in general, it makes some sense. A blue sky is hard to argue. However, I still believe that, in audio, it's subjective and not objective. Two reasons: 1) Different folks hear differently. A flat frequency response may not appeal to a lot of folks. If something is perceived as bass heavy to one guy, another guy might think it's perfect and any less bass would be bass shy. Same with upper frequencies - what is laid back to some folks is perfect to others. Or screeching highs to one person might be perfectly detailed and not harsh to another. 2) You might agree with this. Subjectivity not only comes from opinion and personal taste, but also it can be caused by other factors such as environment, cabling, and other components.
Dave
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@ricred1 - I agree. @viber6 - no disrespect here - I see where you are trying to go with this objective/subjective thing, but I think your latest post regarding subjective/objective is in itself subjective. When you mention things like - they should be honest, or, it's unnatural, or, the more informed you are about natural music, etc, you are basing this upon what "you" (and perhaps many others) perceive to be objective. Still though, others might have a different take on what is objective to them. For some, it's unamplified music, for others it's amplified music, still for others it's a colored sound, only to them it's not colored, for others it's perhaps a completely flat response. Some might say if it does jazz right, others classical, some hip hop or electronic dance. All of these other views of claimed objectivity will also include different required (in order to be objective to them) levels of bass, brightness, etc. I just don't think we can get there - a blue sky for all to see and recognize and agree upon - because when it comes to audio, there's too many factors, and as humans we just can't help being subjective and different. Dave
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Agreed jetter! I think that discussion has gone further than it should have. I will do my part by refraining from responding in this thread.
Should viber6 choose to create a separate thread for that discussion, I will be happy to respond to the last post about objectivity/subjectivity.
I'm here for WC's journey :-) Speaking of that, I'd like to hear from WC on the rank list that techno_dude provided. Is that actually your list WC? I would think Pass Labs amps (X, XA, or XS) would be somewhere in that list.
Dave
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techno__dude:
I would definitely agree with your statements about service to music and technology for those two components. It will be interesting to see if WC comes to the same conclusions, after spending time with both. Some will prefer one flavor and others will prefer the other. I guess we’ll get to have somewhat of an opinion too, after we watch the video.
WC:
I watched the XLR comparison video. It’s interesting when you start with the Odin and then go to the Cardas - it almost seems muffled at first when going to the Cardas. So, I waited a while and then went back to your video and listened to the Cardas first, and then I listened to the Odin. While I can still tell the differences, this time I found that I kind of didn’t like some of the things the Odin did vs the Cardas. I can now understand why the Cardas would be preferred by some. Dave
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For me, all cables (PC, IC, & SC) contribute and/or take away from the sonics and the partnership with speakers and electronics. I'm always amazed/surprised though at how much of an impact power makes on the whole sonic picture. If I had to pick one of the three, it would be power. Dave
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