My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!


So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:

Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005

With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:

ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)

NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)

Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)

rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)

cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)

parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)

lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)

McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.

butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)

pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.

classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)

Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:



PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.

Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.

Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?

Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.

 It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.

Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.

Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.

Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.

Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.

Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.

My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.

That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!


128x128jays_audio_lab

Showing 50 responses by jays_audio_lab

I want to chime in here since I’ve been absent due to my workload:

1. I like to give my raw opinion on gear I’ve had here. I will say I’ve heard gear in different stores and I wasn’t impressed BUT I believe you can’t really give 100% certainty until you place it in your room and push play. Look, I didn’t like Wilson Sasha’s when I heard them at a store but when I brought them home I thought they were awesome. They sounded very different and engaging here. 
2. Techno dude has a valid point in regards to some manufacturers that ask for you to upgrade a component right off the bat. This is why I didn’t want to do room correction, or even roll tubes. I wanted to evaluate product the way it comes out of the box. How does it stack up against the rest ? 
3. Rhia: i do agree that in order to evaluate a product, hands on experience is an important one because you can pin point what you hated or loved about it. It’s really hard to do this outside your home. Why? Because you know exactly what your own system sounds like. Your ears are dialed in for your system. You will easily identify the changes when you swap out components. 

4. Many brands do sell a lot of snake oil and I unfortunately can’t put them on blast. I have learned that you can’t always trust specs, design, etc. Sometimes when a new version gets released, nothing has changed. It’s just a different color or a different grille. Internally nothing has changed. Why ? Because most manufacturers need to keep selling product. 

I love everyone who keeps this thread going. Rhea, techno, mike Paul, Jacob, ron, thezaks, Guido, viber and the rest that I’m forgetting to mention, you all keep me going day in and day out. You guys rock and although you have different points of views, we are pretty much a family here. I appreciate the effort you guys also put in here. Rhea is nuts, techno dude is crazy, and I’m the craziest mofo out of everyone. :) 
All good guys. Rhea is a good dude. He’s probably crazier than I am. I’m trying to pry is m400 monos and he won’t let me. Damn it. If he was my neighbor, we would have no wife or a family because of the crazy amount of shoot outs we would do.
What I feel techno did was to say what came to mind but I also understand what he meant. You know how many times I’ve tried to say “ this amp sucks and it will only sound good with a 5,000 dollar power cord”?
The bottom line is when we buy a car, like a Lamborghini aventador, we aren’t expecting to drop another 30k in engine work in order to be impressed. We want it to make us go like HOLY crap  as it comes from the factory and whatever we buy for it is icing on the cake. Granted, the bhk300s aren’t a lambo. I think they are a good bang for the money. Are they better than Luxman? Nope. But for the money, it’s a good pair of amps.
Another great example is the ref10. It’s an example of being blown away with it the way it comes. With factory tubes it sounds like holy shit. If you roll tubes then it will probably be far better.

Lastly, I wanted to thank grey9hound for sending me some cool music. I received a lot of CDs from him and I can’t wait to play all of it so I can Comment.
Rhea, I’m gonna take those m400s from you. I’m telling you I AM !

Miketuason: the 2301 is the best amp I’ve ever heard from McIntosh. Far more engaging.
as a matter of fact: the bhk300s Monos sound much better than the 601s. They are tube based so they will engage you more. 
Yes the amplifier affects the bottom end on marring Logan electrostatics. If your amp has more bottom end then the woofers will let you know even though they are self powered. 
Pass labs and Martin Logan is outstanding. Better than krell ever sounded in my opinion. 

Yes the luxman 900u and 925s Rowland’s remain at the top of the list. The pass 200.5 was incredible though. That’s Been just as impressive as the xs150 I owned. 

Here are my top picks for solid state amps based on used price:

best under 5k
bat 600se

best under 10k
simaudio 860a

best under 15k
luxman 900u

best under 40k
rowland 925

best overall amp for the money? Luxman 900u.




Update: I just plugged in the 2301s into the outlet using wireworld world silver 7 cables and it feels as if a curtain was lifted. Far more clarity than ever before. I could be happy with what I hear right now for a while even if the bass is not the best.
With this, I will say it once again: THE 2301s ARE THE BEST AMPLIFIERS TO COME FROM MCINTOSH THAT I HAVE EVER OWNED.
it is just very sad how subpar their other amps are. No musicality, no engaging sound, no life, no soul. 
Pass 200.8s we’re not delivered and we canceled the transaction due to differences. 
For now, I’m enjoying the hell out of the 2301s and will do so until something else that’s of interest to me shows up. 
as I mentioned earlier, I don’t get paid from anyone to review gear. Some dealers are actually afraid of selling things to me because of what I may say about the product to you guys. IF I WAS A IRRELEVANT then no dealer would be scared to sell to me. As a matter of fact I was told  yesterday by a dealer that he was “prohibited” from selling to me lol.
Who am I ? The Mexican cartel? Am I running an illegal operation by buying with my own money? Yes guys, some people are afraid to sell to me... man I didn’t know how big I was ?
Alright guys,
im in talks in regards to a pair of constellation Taurus Monos which some have reported to me are spectacular and possibly better than luxman 900u mono 
Stay tuned...
I think i must have pissed some people off with my findings :)
Some of the comments are indeed correct, but extremist. For instance, cable footers, or a stand for each amplifier i own or a different power cord for each amp i own. Catch my drift?
Anyhow, i believe there might have been some "momentum" or "ayre" lovers that were butt-hurt after i selected the Luxman, but THAT IS WHAT I WILL DO. I will say what i hear in MY SPACE and if it ticks people off then either deal with it or don’t listen to my findings.
We can all agree that at some point we all need to hit the brakes with this hobby. We all need to draw the line somewhere and you HAVE NOOOO IDEA how many times i have been told " oh no i would never spend $5,000 dollars on a powercord Jay", but i am supposed to buy a stand for each amp i bring? :)
Some people take this to the extreme, but what they don’t quite realize is that they are trying to dial in THEIR single amplifier with the only preamp they have and the only set of speakers they have owned for the last 24 months. Of course it is easy to do it in that scenario, but how in the world AM I SUPPOSED to do the same with so much gear here?
Am i supposed to chase 10 sets of power cords for all the amps and then 10 speaker cables (i tried cardas, don’t get me started on that topic) and then buy a different stand for each amp i own ? So let’s say i did buy all of those different cables and stands, HOW IN THE WORLD can i sustain so many shootouts with so many cables, stands, xlr, etc, etc? when do i finish?
That is why it is important to keep things into perspective and as simple as possible. If a $10,000 stand is going to make an amplifier go from a C grade to an A in terms of sound then maybe i am in the wrong hobby and i should be buying $30,000 dollar racks and stands and cable lifters and just stick to $1500 dollar emotiva, parasound and Bob Carver amps ? (no offense)
Lastly, THIS IS ABOUT SYNERGY people. i have been saying this all along and RIGHT NOW the luxman and Gryphon sound extremely good. As a matter of fact, the Luxman 900u preamp sounds better with the Gryphon than the Gryphon did with the Gryphon Zena preamp!!
Let’s not forget that this entire situation might completely turn around once i do the FULL momentum set up here. Mix and matching is GAMBLING in many cases as you have seen on the video i posted, but it is still part of the fun.
I will probably have to put out a video addressing this above so people can understand where i am coming from. 
I am JUST GETTING STARTED with the momentum stuff. i have yet to try odin power cords, different xlr, plug it into the Niagara 5000, use the dac direct into the momentum s250, etc, etc. Soooo much more ahead of me. 
Hi guys,
the Dag 400s are on my list, but i was informed that the Constellation Centaurus 2 monos are just far better. More bottom end, far better mids and more extended highs. I have my eyes locked on Constellation.
Lastly, the 2301s have left my home this morning. I am now only with the Gryphon diablo 300, bhk 300s, BAT 600SE.
One of those 3 will be on their way out so i can open up more room and budget for my next purchase. Stay tuned...

Dag m400
Constellation Centaur 500 V2
Constellation Taurus 
Luxman 900u monos (5th time)
Gryphon Antileon Evo (thanks to those European dealers that are agressive)



So I had a conversation last night with someone who agreed with me in regards to something: SS amps are getting closer and closer to tubes but by no means do they sound the same. Tubes have this way of engaging you and making you listen that only few SS amps can do.

I can honestly say tubes are really enjoyable and really something special.
I also was able to hear through tubes the changes in sound when I tried different cables etc. Are  tubes like a window to the music? NO. they are just a sweet sounding presentation that makes you not worry if what you’re hearing is true to the source. It’s kinda like coffee: do you like it black ? Or with hazelnut creamer and whipped cream on top?
Maybe  this is why I can’t let go of my ref10? 
The only downfall is the lack of reliability and the poor resale value associated with tube gear. 
Actually....there's more to that which I didn't add...this is why I gave just partial information..
Ayre KXR TWENTY Preamp with Luxman 900U amp is AMAZING. I might be detecting just a tad more brightness than i’d like, but it could be that it just needs to settle in for a few days. More to come on this amazing preamplifier. Could it be my top Solid State preamp of all time?
We will have to find out :)

PS. The response to my Cardas vs Odin 1 xlr has been incredible and i just uploaded it. Do you all see HOW you can actually hear a difference with just ONE SINGLE cable being swapped out? 
Update: Tomorrow i will be picking up a pair of the wireworld Platinum Eclipse 7 speaker cables. FINALLY i am going to be trying a cable that will be worthy of the rest of the my front end. I am a big wireworld fan. especially their silver series and up. 
I listened to the Ayre KXR TWENTY some more last night and i can say this is THE VERY FIRST preamplifier that has EASILY shown me the difference in sound quality between streaming (TIDAL, QOBUZ) and local files (flac, dsd, etc). i will expand on this later. 
You all ever wondered if Ethernet cables make a real difference? well.... I want to know what my $1,000 Shunyata Sigma Ethernet has to say about this once i plug it in... Stay tuned... 
Stick around Ron. I’ve got pretty interesting stuff coming in the next 30 days or so. I’ve been crazy busy with my daughter and work. I actually hadn’t listened critically for the past two weeks until today. 
That said, there will be some Monos coming for my mágicos. Oh, guess what I saw today at the wireworld factory? Magico s3 .... that’s what they are using I believe to voice their speaker cables. I was shocked actually. 
Ok guys, I brought the wireworld platinum eclipse 7 speaker cables home and the difference is beyond belief. It’s either the magico or the cables, but I can’t believe how much more coherent everything sounds. The highs became more relaxed and the “hotness” of the tweeter has came down quite a bit. The entire presentation just grew in size, the mids are so much more focused and the bass seems to have much more presence in my room. Overall, this is such an awesome improvement that I’m buying the platinum 7 xlr for my source and amplifiers. Im baffled with the match I hear between Magico and wireworld platinum. 
I want to just hint one thing here without giving too much away:
NO OTHER COMBINATION OF AMP/PREAMP has ever ever given me the kind of fullness, muscularity and bottom end control that i get from the momentum combo... I actually now have MORE BASS from my Sasha DAW than what i had from the Alexia 1 i owned. I will expand on this later on this week. For now, that is all you need to know.

As far as live music, i gotta be honest, maybe in my humble opinion too, i have never really enjoyed a live event because to me everything sounds like an echo in the arena. I hear like a bunch of speakers going off and the music being forced into the air and 9/10 we are never in the sweet spot (if there is such thing in an arena). Plus people won’t shut the hell up either so it is kinda hard to appreciate a live event unless you are P. Diddy who can hire the band to play in his house...

As far as the Dag S250 being inferior to the Gryphon, that is still yet to be determined to be honest. It is way too early to deduct that. It is a special power amplifier in so many ways and has beautiful tonality. There will be many shootouts such as:

DCS Vivaldi direct into Gryphon/Momentum S250

Gryphon/DCS Dac Vs Full momentum amp/preamp (dcs dac as source)

DCS/Gryphon/Momentum Preamp Vs Full momentum amp/preamp (dcs dac as source)

Then comes cable swaps on the momentum since i have already nailed what the gryphon and dcs like for cabling and last but not least lets not forget about using my Niagara 5000 on the momentum combo.

I honestly did not expect for this shootout to have so much reaction as it did. 


This could be a great question that i can answer on my next video. Look me up on Youtube. Luxman C900U vs  Ayre KXR TWENTY shootout is happening this week. 
I really like the wireworld platinum cables with Magico. I’ve tried other cables with them and I never got the wow effect as I get with these platinums. The platinum cables have a huge sound stage and detail. I don’t think the highs are rolled off but then again the magico tweeter isn’t warm. Magico is far from a warm presentation. 
I can vouch for Magico and wireworld platinum synergy. I can’t vouch for platinum with other speakers. 
Lastly, those of you who think cables don’t make a difference ( I was one of them in the beginning years) are so wrong. That said, it’s also relevant to how good your set up is. For example, if your set up is a Denon receiver then no a wireworld power cable won’t really make any big difference. Your gear needs to be able to let you hear these changes in order for cables to be worth it. 
So I do believe the large majority of the budget should be into speakers unless you are talking about home theater applications. For instance, if you had let’s say a full Martin Logan 11.2 set up with a full trinnov processor and amp versus let’s say a full Wilson audio 11.2 set up with a Marantz processor and amplifiers, I can assure you the trinnov/Logan set up would murder the Wilson/marantz set up. 
With Two channel, things are different. Speakers become far more crucial but this doesn’t mean the front end isn’t as important. It’s all important but carefully matching the front end to your speakers is also key. For example, Classe audio with Martin Logan electrostatics sounds blah. But if you have audio research with electrostatics then get ready for your jaw to drop. 
Full boulder vs full Gryphon AS IT SHOULD BE.  Mixing preamps is not how equipment of this level is compared. Why would anyone mix and match linestages when both preamps from both manufacturers are in the house?  :)
Amazing that we have been doing this for such a long time. Although at times we have our differences in here, it’s cool to be able to share experiences. I’ve had a couple of conversations with several people whose ears I trust. I can tell you that at this level it’s all subjective. For instance, right now I have the gryphon diablo 300 running wireworld platinum cables throughout and esoteric k1 as a source and to be very honest I don’t miss firing up my ref10 and any other pair of monoblocks. Does this mean it beats what I’ve owned? Hell no but it’s just so much bang for the buck. What I’m saying is that having a 16k integrated that competes relatively well with a 30k preamp and 30k Monos is just crazy. Is it just as good? No but separates aren’t 4 times better either.
I think that it’s also something very psychological that tells you “ hey if you own 40k dollar speakers, you can’t have a 16k front end pushing them. You need 50k+ to do justice to the speakers etc” but in my opinion that’s all BS. I realized that it’s really our mind playing tricks. Sometimes we as men get off on seeing a bunch of electronics in between the speakers with a bunch of cables etc etc.
I don’t like admitting it but there’s a point that any more money spent is almost just like throwing it away. Will I spend 5,000 dollars on a power cord? Hell no. Not without at least listening to it and seeing if it indeed makes a difference. I also feel that cables are such a tricky purchase. If you buy the wrong cables then now you’re stuck with them and selling cables is harder than any other component I know because there’s still a lot of people that don’t believe in cables. I have friends who have great components and still roll with amazon xlr cables and speaker cables from Best Buy. They don’t want to buy high end cables because their minds don’t allow them to accept that a difference will be heard.

Lastly, don’t get it twisted... I will still bring more amps to try and give my impressions on. I’m carefully planning my next amp purchase. I still don’t know what it will be but it will bring life back
to this thread. You all have seen me lay low for now because I don’t have really anything to update on other than the platinum cables. I’m also unable to find amps that are of interest to me. The market is saturated with amps that are of no interest to me at this time. I would love to try the m400 momentums, m160 audio
research, block audio, gryphon antileon or Mephisto, etc. Those are my wishes but as you all know the market is dry when it comes to those components so I have to remain patient until I can locate one. My speed was much faster before because I had more amps I was interested in and right now the pool is getting shallow.


So as i sit here tonight listening to the DCS VIVALDI connected to my luxman 900 u amp i realize that at this level there is a HUUUUUUUUUGE law of diminishing returns. I can HONESTLY SAY that having a DCS Vivaldi and using it as a preamp pretty much puts in your hands a dac that beats probably 60-70% of the preamps out in the market today and the 30% of the preamps that can beat this dac probably cost as much if not more than this dac. Right now, and although it is a preliminary feeling, i could easy sell the Ayre Preamp RIGHT NOW and any other preamp i have owned and use that money instead to buy the clock for the vivaldi and more AES, BNC cables for the dac to elevate it.
Here is what i have gathered after living with the DCS Vivaldi:

1.A WELL DESIGNED DAC is probably able to do a 2 men job: Dac & Preamp AS LONG AS YOU LISTEN within reasonable volume levels
2. If you need horsepower, big volume levels, your room is huge and needs to spread a ton of air in order to fill it, no dac will EVER best a well designed preamp when it comes to this.

In short, let’s say you have 30k to spend and you are thinking this:

1. 30k DAC
2. 15K PREAMP 15K DAC
3. 20K PREAMP AND 10 DAC

If you have a small room, don’t listen at pretty big volume levels, go with option #1 10 times out of 10.
If you have a relatively large room, big speakers, sit back pretty far, have other sources that you need to connect such as a turntable, etc then go for option #2 or #3.
I FINALLY ACCEPT TODAY that no preamp, HAS EVER bested a dac when it comes to the purity and detail at low level listening. EVER, EVER EVER and if that preamp exists, i have not met it and to be TOTALLY honest, WHY would i spend another 20,30, 40k to hear THE SAME THING that i am already getting at low volume levels? it is stupid. Save your money people.
In short, and the take away from this should be that your volume level and room determine what works best as a preamp.

I almost spent a pretty penny by buying some top end xlr cables to go from my dac into the Ayre and then use my odin xlr from the ayre into the amp, but i hit the brakes instead because i want to first convince myself that a preamp is indeed what i need to have here. Don’t be surprised if i end up moving forward with just a Dac and completely killing the idea of a preamp for me, my room and listening habits as of late.

Yes, i still own the Ref6SE, Luxman 900u preamp and now the Ayre KXR TWENTY so i have more than enough to make a decision when it comes to owning a preamp. If i decide not to, you all can be sure that i did ENOUGH testing and listening of my own that i just don’t need a preamp anymore. Granted, i have serious cables and a supporting cast for this dac that really makes it work that much better, but i need to feel like having all this money tied up in a preamp is indeed worth it because i am getting something i can not live without and this will be the exercise i need to endure over the next few weeks.
This Ayre Preamp will be the final nail in the coffin for me. If this preamp STILL does not convince me to keep it for at least a few months then i will sell all my preamps and close the "preamp" conversation for me. Yes i will still try a preamp here and there because i want to try whatever new preamps come out and nothin else. Remember, for me the investment is rather large and if a preamp CAN’T do MORE than what my dac already does then that is redundant for me and i rather put this money on something else like a second pair of speakers, etc.
I’m with you greyhound. I can’t listen to opera or birds chirping kind of music. I go to bed with I listen to that. I fall asleep on the chair very fast.  
Brought the wireworld platinum 7 xlr on Friday. I proceeded to unplug my silver 8 and then when I began to listen to the platinums xlr I found them rather boomy, less detailed and smeared when compared to the silver 8 cables. Tried looking all over to place to see if there’s any sort of break in recommended on these and couldn’t find anything. That said, 48 hours of playing music non stop seems to have shifted things quite a bit. I’ll report back later next week. I want them to have at least 100 hours on them. 
@dasign 
I am glad that my findings helped you save money and make a decision. This is what I hope my thread can do for some of you. My findings are free advice and by no means are he final word but it is the final word for my own personal situation. 
I will be posting more thoughts later on in regards to using dacs as preamps. 

For everyone else, if you are contemplating to buy a dac to use as a preamp, check back here because I will be adding more information that will help you. 
Just wait until you all see the amps im borrowing from a good dealer. They will be here first week in November which is pretty much only 4 weeks away. They retail for 60k and are monoblocks. Pure class a. Stay tuned... that is what I’ll be hopefully reviewing next. 
Stay tuned... 200 lbs each mono. I’m excited to get hands on them. 
I’ve had an eye on them for quite sometime. After doing my own research, I think they will bring a dog fight to the 925s and Luxman 900u. Will they catapult themselves all the way to the #1 spot ? We shall see.. the 925s are still the #1 amp I’ve ever owned. 
Greyhound: I understand your point. That said, quite often I don’t have much control on what’s available to me and also I can’t go and buy less expensive components that I’m not familiar with. I’ve got to be aware of the used market and resale. If I were to not care about resale then I’d be filing for chapter 11 and sleeping with the dog outside my house. If I’ve endured this hobby for so many years without getting hurt too bad financially then that must mean I’m doing something right. 
If I were to review emotiva simply because everyone can afford it, then how do I get rid of it once it’s time to part ways with it? Why would anyone buy mine if they can buy direct from emotiva? Unless I’m willing to take a nice hit in my pocket, I simply won’t sell any emotiva on my own. 
I don’t plan on doing any parasound, emotiva, krell, wyre4sound, ATI, theta digital, rótel, Classe. Those brands don’t interest me at all anymore. Their current offerings have been here and I’m done. If I get anything from them then it’s probably for me to simply sell it. It won’t be for me to keep or to review. 
It’s been quite dry for me for sure. Some of the brands I want to get my hands on are very protected so deals are scarce. Most dealers won’t work with you so I’m pretty much just waiting for deals on the used market. I’ll tell you this, it’s kind of hard to go back to a Toyota Camry if all you’ve been test driving has been Mercedes s600 and bmw 750. Pretty difficult to go back unless someone comes to your house and tells you “ you want this Camry for a deal? I need to get rid of it...” then sure I’ll buy the Camry and drive it but I’m not exactly looking for one. That’s how I feel right now in regards to amps. Lastly, have you all realized that most amp manufacturers haven’t really done any major changes to their products? McIntosh still has the same look and some say the new amps are not special. Classe has nothing new, ayre won’t have another amp anytime soon, krell hasn’t had a decent amp in a long time, Mark Levinson has decent amps but nothing really impressive. The only 2 brands are audio research with the new arc m160, constellation and their new amps. That’s really it in terms of new amps that are worth listening to. The amplifier segment has been relatively quiet with no major changes. 
I have been thinking of something in order to keep this thread going. I know many of you want my input on products that I perhaps don’t have any interest in bringing. That said, how about you send me your amp or any gear  so I can give you my honest opinion? I I will keep an affordable amp on hand as well as something more expensive. I can compare to either and let you know what I like or dislike about it. I actually had one friend bring over his amps and I gave him my opinion on them. He said they lacked more bottom end and he wanted to be sure he wasn’t crazy so I went ahead and gave it a listen. After my opinion, he asked me what amp could give him what he was lacking and so I pointed him in the right direction and now he’s beyond happy. 
Yes, the Luxman is better than the 585. Id take it over the Levinson. 
I plan on bringing momentums at some point. Just not before the other Monos. 
I expect great things from those Amps
best amps I recall at low volume:

mark levinson 532h
mcintosh 2301
luxman 900u
pass xs150
hmm I’m sure I’m missing a few more. 

The gryphon diablo 300 is great at low volume as well. Look, I don’t bs anyone here. If I had 15k to spend on an amp and preamp, I’d get the Luxman 509 or Diablo 300. You can’t get an amp and preamp that can rival them for less than 15k. 
best amps I recall at low volume:

mark levinson 532h
mcintosh 2301
luxman 900u
pass xs150
hmm I’m sure I’m missing a few more. 

The gryphon diablo 300 is great at low volume as well. Look, I don’t bs anyone here. If I had 15k to spend on an amp and preamp, I’d get the Luxman 509 or Diablo 300. You can’t get an amp and preamp that can rival them for less than 15k. 
I really thought it was an incredible dac. I wish i still had it so i could compare it with my DCS. The best way to describe DCS is that it pulls a ton of detail out of the recording and puts it front and center while the Lampi worries more about engaging you and keeping you seated. The DCS is more my cup of tea because i am in love with the minute details found in recordings, but that is just my personal opinion. 


ViBer: I can’t think of a multichannel amp that impresses at low volume. 

Ron: yes you’re right. I knew I was missing more Amps from the list which is why I said it. The 860a is a special amp. It is very close to the Luxman in sound. One day I’ll try that 870a of yours. Don’t worry that’s next lol 
There’s no multichannel amp that can rival at low or high volume a stereo amp. That’s how my journey started. You can’t make a boy do a man’s job. You want music to sound as good as possible then buy Monos or stereo amps. 
Update:

Tomorrow's video will be EPIC. Is the Ayre KXR TWENTY still a king when it comes to solid state preamps? How much better is it from the Luxman C900U  and can it elevate the luxman m900u? can it do a better job with it than the preamp designed for the m900u? i guess we will find out tomorrow. 

One last thing: ugh... well...  Let me put it short and simple: there is ANOTHER WORLD CLASS AMP AND PREAMP arriving tomorrow. Yes, big, well known brand that will have to be thrown in the fire against the Luxman amp, preamp, and Ayre preamp. I believe we are headed for PLENTY of shootouts:

  • Ayre KXR TWENTY VS LUXMAN C900U
  • AYRE KXR TWENTY VS (ANOTHER WORLD CLASS PREAMP)
  • LUXMAN C900U VS (ANOTHER WORLD CLASS AMP THAT COSTS TWICE THE MONEY)
  • FULL LUXMAN 900U SETUP VS (A 70K MSPR PREAMP/AMP COMBO)

It is about to get serious... but just remember, i do this madness for ME as well as YOU ALL. Once i am done with Luxman, you all will have proof of how good it is after seeing it go at it with many different brands. 
In my head, it is STILL the best bang for the buck and i am proving that to myself as well as you all. However, like all good things, everything comes to an end and the show must go on. I want you all to have enough substance and proof of how good the 900U is before i part ways with it. Yes, i will part ways with it. The only reason WHY i brought it in was to show you all how good it is since i already knew this. It will be sold soon so i can continue to push forward. For now, STAY TUNED in order to find out WHAT I have coming tomorrow :)