nitrobob,
Interesting. When I spoke to ATI, they said their class D 522 or 542 are slightly superior to the 6002. They use Hypex NC500. Keep us informed how the Legacy compares. Another option is Ric Schultz' tweaked EVS 1200. He also modifies the IceEdge module, just over $2K.
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WC,
Your weight makes you at risk for sleep apnea, a far more serious medical condition than plain snoring. Please lose weight--we want you to have a long life.
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Grey9hound or anyone,
I am thinking about PSB PS1 desktop speakers for the computer. Any other recommendations?
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klh007 and lissnr,
At Steve's house when I heard an older GTA playing a very dynamic piece by Rimsky Korsakoff, even with the subs disconnected, there was a lot of power in the bass. Then with the subs on, there wasn't much difference. This illustrates that for most classical music, the panels alone are sufficient, although there are certain rare pieces that could use the subs. This is more applicable to rock.
In order to get the most precision and detail, the midpoint of the panels should be aimed to the listener's head. The narrow HF ribbon has excellent dispersion, but any panel wider than about 4 inches will exhibit poor dispersion of upper midrange and higher freq. The GTA can be enjoyed by a few listeners sitting on a couch or standing, but the center listener will get the most profound experience, a big difference.
I heard the original large Apogee and several later models. Due to the large width of the main panels, there is rolloff of HF, compared to GTA. Apogee smoothness is nice, but the GTA offers that, PLUS more snap/sparkle in HF without harshness. |
WC,
While you are waiting for the other JC1+ to arrive and break in, please do the comparison review of the Gryphon with Merrill 118. Fortunately, you don't have a Gryphon preamp and can't do a review of Merrill package vs Gryphon package, so you can do this with any other preamp. Christine would be my choice. You got my Merrill 114 evaluation, now let's hear your 118/Gryphon comparison. Also, how much does the 118 vary in sound with its settings of fast, medium, slow? Choose the fast setting to see if the 118 can unseat the Gryphon at the top.
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justmetoo,
I follow your analysis, but there actually is a "free lunch" in some ways. An amp that is lower in distortion and more accurate, will have more precision in all freq, low to high. Electrons don't play favorites--I like LF, you like HF, etc. This is apparent if you are familiar with live, unamplified music and the sounds of nature, where everything is coherent, with all freq both sustained and transient being evenly balanced. Just accept the fact that the midrange in electronics as well as live, will be neutral, not dry or warm. If you seek warmth in midrange, you will wind up with loose bass and rolled off HF, which are warm manifestations of inaccuracies at these other freq.
Warmth in live concerts is due to other factors like room size, acoustic materials, etc. That is a different topic.
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WC,
I enjoyed both presentations. The 20.7's sound great, aided by your tweaked placement and the Odin 1 speaker cables. The ARC ref 6se probably contributes crispness as well. I didn't hear any tubey qualities, although tubed stuff initially can sound crisp, which then mellows out with break in. Still, on the last selection, "Keith don't go" I found the Merrill to have a little more jangly quality on the opening guitar, like jangly coins. The voice is more immediate, without the slight veil and boominess of the JC1+. Some people might say that the jangly guitar is too bright and discontinuous with the voice, but I think that's what the recording is, and the 20.7 is telling the truth, just like the 3.7i did on this recording.
I know you will need another video to explain your own findings and rate the JC1+ and Merrill. But please, do a video with the same music to A/B the Gryphon Colosseum and Merrill before they leave. I'm guessing that a Gryphon Mephisto is coming.
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WC, Although I haven't personally heard the Dag, my experience with Merrill is that it seems to have everything you want. Live unamplified music has smoothness and snap/sparkle in a combination that eludes all systems, but of all the amps you have had, the 118 seems closest to that ideal. Only you know if the Gryphon is even better. I like your quantitative rating system that complements your written prose, so let's see how the 118 and Gryphon rate. |
Ricevs,
No, I listened to the Merrill 114 with its standard feet. I heard that Merrill tried different feet and settled on the Gaia. Perhaps Merrill should try his amps with the fancy Artesania stands that made such a hit here. Maybe Gryphon should reconfigure their amps to be horizontal, so these stands can be used.
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I agree with ricev's analysis. I have to admit I was shocked at how I thought the Dag was more detailed vs the Gryphon, and speculated that the fancy stand made the difference. I don't have ricev's experience with fuses, but I accept his statements about that. Most important, I agree with ricevs that we shouldn't compare fixed combinations of the same brand of preamp + amp. The reality is that most people have their favorite preamp, and want to know how different amps will change the sound. As long as there are no volume or impedance mismatches between preamp and amp, any preamp will be compatible with any amp discussed here. For example, whether you use the ARC ref 6se or Merrill Christine or Dag HD preamps, you are likely to rank the Merrill, Dag or Gryphon amps the same way with any of these 3 preamps. There is nothing magical about the Merrill preamp/amp package vs Dag preamp/amp package.
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Unfortunately, we all can be misled by youtube videos, although WC has improved their clarity using the new microphone. Since the only people here who have heard a Merrill amp in their systems are WC and I, let's see how WC rates the 118. From my comparisons, I emphatically say that the midrange of the 114 is sweet with "soul." It is not at all dry, by any stretch of the imagination. The Merrill Veritas has much less sweetness. A few listeners described the Veritas as dry, but I wouldn't say that. Their "dry" is my "neutral." I honestly think that most people here would like the Merrills better than any other amp reviewed here, for their power, sweetness + soul, very good detail devoid of brightness. No, I am not a shill for Merrill, since I didn't buy any of them, because my preference is for a leaner, crisper sound for the particular music I mainly listen to. This has nothing to do with money. If the Merrills gave me more of the sound I wanted, I would have bought one of them, since the prices are fair and competitive. |
WC,
I suspect you are saying that a Parasound preamp doesn't make sense with a Momentum amp because the Parasound is much cheaper than the Momentum. I really wish you would stop saying that a cheap item can't be excellent, and not just for the money. Parasound offers top quality sound in cheap packaging. John Curl of Parasound is a legendary designer. I remember him when he designed the Mark Levinson JC2 preamp (later renamed ML1), which was the top sounding (and expensive) preamp of the late 1970's. Curl has comparable expertise to all the designers of Constellation. You are about to find out how excellent the new Parasound JC1+ is. John Atkinson creamed over it. Although not cheap, it still is fairly reasonably priced. For sound quality, it is probably in the class of the expensive Constellation Centaur and Pass XS you heard. You won't know for sure, since you no longer have the Centaur or Pass for A/B. Also, Irv Gross of Constellation said that the $11K Inspiration has the same circuitry as the more powerful and much more expensive Connie amps, with probably comparable sound quality. Just don't allow your infatuation with pricey stuff to color your objective evaluation of sound quality. As RIAA, grey9hound and I have said, most expensive stuff are poor investments since they quickly lose value.
My Audiostatic speaker of 1980 retailed for only $2000. It still beats any speaker of today for clarity regardless of price. I am willing to spend many times its value for amps to get the highest performance out of it, but so far, none of the expensive amps have given the clarity of my cheap Mytek and Bryston 2.5B SST2. Believe it. |
WC,
I just watched your video. I didn't know that the Merrill 118 has settings for different sounds--fast, medium, slow, etc. Have you been using it on the fast setting? Is that the default (standard) setting? In any case, it would be interesting to get your evaluation of the different settings.
There was a Momentum HD preamp review a short time ago in Stereophile. He found it to have a juicy, fat sound. The Merrill Christine is probably a leaner, tighter sound. The Christine is an older design, nothing to do with class D. Class D is for power amps only, anyway. So if you have been hearing the Dag package as romantic and relatively fat/juicy compared to the Merrill package, the use of different preamps may explain this. It would be more informative to use a single preamp for both amps. Try Christine + 118 vs Christine + Dag in the next video, which would probably best reveal the true differences between the 118 and Dag amps. In another video, try Dag HD preamp + 118 vs HD + Dag amp. That would answer a lot of questions. Those people who think the Merrill package lacks soul might change their mind if they hear Dag HD + 118. Or, Christine + Dag amp will probably have less soul than Dag HD + Dag amp. When you get the ARC ref 6se, try it with both amps. Since I found the 114 to have plenty of sweetness/soul, I suspect that the Merrill amps have similar overall character to the Dag amps, although possibly still with greater control and extension of bass and HF. |
WC,
As ricevs says, I know your ratings on the Gryphon, which are the highest so far. We haven't heard your ratings on the Merrill 118. Most meaningful would be a video A/B of them as I suggested.
I heard from someone in confidence that he tried the JC1+ at home, and found about what you said in statements 1,2,3. He wrote to correct me when I posted that John Atkinson said it was a great amp. I trust his and your assessments. I thanked him for correcting my reliance on reviews. Amps with rolled off HF have more depth, because the overall presentation is more laid back. This amp is not in the class of anything you have enjoyed, and not because of its relatively modest price, since the Sim 860 V2 and Luxman M900u are comparably priced. Of course, break it in and see for yourself. So please get to the Gryphon/118 comparison, which is more worthy of your time.
I subscribed to your channel, but I haven't gotten notices in my email. Usually the red subscribe button shows, and rarely the grey subscribed button shows. I think someone else also mentioned this problem. If this doesn't work, just post that you have another video, and I will go to YT. But if you trust us to subscribe, it would be convenient if you can still post the YT link. Thanks.
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I am not advocating that WC do an exhaustive bunch of trials. Obviously his time is limited, and I appreciate what he has done so far. But ricevs and I are suggesting a very few well designed trials. All the cable variations would show less differences than preamp/amp differences, so they can be eliminated for the purposes of this amp shootout. Choose any single combination of cables for the amp shootouts. Right now, doing packages of Merrill vs Dag is confusing, and doesn't answer the question of what the 118 sounds like compared to the Dag S250. Ultimately, the 118/Gryphon shootout is most valuable, since they are the top contenders for most of the criteria WC is using. If time is limited, using any single preamp with these amps will be more informative than package trials. I believe the Christine preamp is the most revealing, so that can be the one used in the amp A/B/C. When time permits, the Dag HD and ARC ref 6se can be used.
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Stargazer3,
Good Startrek metaphor. With limited time and money, everyone, even Richard Branson has to make a decision which galaxy to explore. When a good astronomer wants to answer a specific question, he then focuses his attention appropriately.
Dan D'Agostino wrote that at Krell, he didn't like the preamps as much as the amps. He thinks he is doing better now in his new company. I once tried a Krell preamp with my Krell KSA50 amp. This preamp, in tests with another amp, was extraordinarily detailed, but my Krell amp was relatively veiled. The combination of Krell preamp and amp was interesting. But since the Krell preamp and amp had far different character, the true character of the Krell amp could only be discerned by using the same preamp with different amps, not with the package approach WC is doing. |
If you get fine external microphones, you could demonstrate the subtle differences between cables, etc. Right now I don't think it will be possible, although you can certainly try. Meanwhile, you could choose a very few musical selections so that we can tell differences in speakers from video to video. Even using different music, I could still hear the superior clarity of the Focal vs Alexia, although it would have been more dramatic using the same music. Also, the video before the Florida show had a nice song with introductory sparkling instruments. The natural SPL of this music is 70-80 dB, so going for clarity at these levels is still the most important musical priority rather than abusive blasting SPL's. In the video of the Florida show, the Muraudio is playing a solo cello piece, Johann Sebastian Bach Cello Suite no. 1, BWV 1007, first section. Natural live levels here heard 10-15 feet away in a small hall are 50-60 dB. This music is subtle and dry, but excitement is gained from appreciating the delicate bow strokes, so absolute clarity is mandatory. A more exciting Bach piece is the Suite no. 5, BWV 1011, first section. The cello plays its lowest note at 64 Hz, at louder natural levels of 80 dB. The cello is a very wide ranging instrument, with harmonics up to 10,000 Hz, so clarity is paramount in order to appreciate the growl and buzz of the total sound. Here is where great tweeters bring out the harmonics of the bass notes.
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If you are evaluating power cords (PC), then using stock cords to compare to PC A and then PC B is a waste of time, if the purpose is to compare A to B. If evaluating interconnects or speaker cables, stock PC can be used, but if you have good or great PC already, which are more revealing than stock PC, then the evaluation of interconnects or speaker cables will be easier and differences greater. The superior clarity of the Focal speaker will also make it easier. If a Magico has better clarity than the Focal, stick with that as a long term reference, while you flip less critical components like electronics and cables. I never heard the Muraudio, but like other large highly curved stat panels which roll off HF, it will probably have inferior clarity to Focal or Magico.
The preceding is obvious in your listening room, but unless you get better microphones, I doubt you will be able to demonstrate any of this with your present recorder, but try anyway.
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Yes, the video posted by techno has excellent sound from that microphone. I don't recognize the model of that mike, but it looks like an omnidirectional one. In professional circles, it is well known that directional cardioid mikes give better clarity and focused imaging. Narrow mike diaphragms give the best clarity, just as small tweeters give the best upper midrange/HF clarity vs large drivers. My Neumann KM184 mikes are half inch diameter cardioids, but Mark Levinson used quarter inch diameter mikes in his Rose Music shop and recording studio years ago. I was jealous--in this case, smaller is better, haha.
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Reviews say that the Nordost 1 series, whether cheapest or Norse or Valhalla or Odin are leaner in sound than the corresponding 2 series. Although systems vary and reviews are always in question, WC found the Odin 1 to be leaner than 2. Another way to put this is that he found Odin 2 to be more laid back than 1. I like the focus and clarity of the Nordost Vishnu power cord, the predecessor of Valhalla 1. Great value for $350 used. I picked up two--one for the DAC, one for the power amp. It is crisper than my Shunyata Venom HC, which I preferred over the Shunyata Sigma HC flagship which was laid back with rounded transients.
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speedbump6,
Was it you or someone else (I forgot) who recently ordered the Sim 860 V2? Let's hear the findings. |
A few thoughts. People have told me that footers have the most benefit under components with moving parts like CD transports vs other electronics. Let's see what you find. Also, see how much differences you find with footers compared to cables, electronics.
Try the Gryphon amp using all the bias settings at moderate/low volumes to see the differences in resolution and tonal quality.
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dguitarnut,
I actually love your Surf n Turf analogy, even though no analogy is perfect. Even though YT videos are only a shadow of what WC hears in his room, I am able to make comparisons, even if they are diluted compared to WC's listening. For example, the most important quality to me, clarity, is something I can readily judge in the videos. An amp with greater clarity on the video will probably have the same in WC's room if I were there. I can also judge snap/sparkle and HF extension. But I can't really judge R/L separation, tonal nuances, bass dynamics and extension and other qualities. WC's videos are really fun if you accept the limitations. This is not much different from hearing a system at home, realizing it is not quite the real (live) thing, but still enjoying it.
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kren,
Planars will never do low bass as well as dynamic speakers. Please don't get into the money thing, that the 20.7 won't do bass as well as the DAW because they are much cheaper. There are plenty of under $10K dynamic speakers that will do deep bass better than the $30K Maggie 30.7. The right size planar for the room will do other things better than dynamic speakers at any price, but for deep bass, dynamic speakers are king.
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WC,
I understand your justification for doing A/B’s of packages, but this is based on the myth that designers know best what works together. In the end, they use their ears to make decisions about circuit refinements. But their ears, listening skills and sound preferences are not necessarily better or more valid than any of the people on this thread or any other. Same goes for voicing of amps with certain speakers. If an amp is great, it will have near-universal applicability to any speaker, except for a few obvious exceptions like a 5 watt tube amp driving an inefficient electrostatic. Believe me, an unbiased trial by any listener is unlikely to show that the same brand preamp will produce the best results for him with its amp. For some listeners, a synergy soul mate marriage may happen with brand X preamp and brand X amp. It would be serendipity, and it is just as likely that brand Y amp in combination with his other components would work better for other listeners.
The example I gave of the Krell preamp and amp shows how you don’t much about what the general character of either really is, when used together. The most useful thing you can do for your followers is to try to be as scientific as possible, controlling 1 variable at a time. That way you can zero in on each component and get more definitive info about each, in the limited time you have. If you use the Christine preamp to compare the Gryphon, Merrill, Dag, that will be good enough to tell the true character of each amp. When you get more time, the Dag HD preamp and then the ARC ref 6se experiment can be done. You will come to approximately the same relative rankings of each amp. Say you use the Christine, and find the Gryphon is 8 for speed and the Merrill is 7 for speed. Then you use the Dag HD, and the Gryphon is 7 for speed and Merrill is 6. There is still the same 1 point superiority of the Gryphon for speed, no matter which preamp you use. Of course, I simplify, but you don’t want to spend all your time doing all these trials, so my simplification is the approximate thing you would find.
In any case, nobody is going to plunk down serious money for any of these products without a proper home trial. They are going to make their own decisions based on their own mixing and matching with their own listening in their own systems. The best you can do is to give clear info about what each component sounds like, in your own system.
The only thing necessary for compatibility is that the input impedance of the power amp should be more than 10 times the output impedance of the preamp. If it is less than 10, there will be HF rolloff. Once the ratio is over 10, almost any preamp can go well with any power amp. |
Also, getting back to component matching, going back to the 1970's, Magnepan demo'd and co-marketed their speakers with ARC electronics. Does that mean Magnepan thought ARC amps were the best for their speakers? NO. Both companies were in White Bear Lake, Minnesota, close to each other. They had easy opportunities to hear their products together. The founders used each others' products. Both are good companies, but co-marketing was done for convenience. That doesn't mean ARC + Magnepan was a match made in Heaven--it just worked out in White Bear Lake. Magnepan now states that many amps at all power ratings have worked out well for their customers, a good thing.
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The eternal problem of inventors is how to sell their idea in the form of usable products. Marketing in the usual way is expensive and prohibitive for most inventors. They will perish without a practical and low/no cost alternative. A free audio forum is a great way to let the community know about a product. If a reader finds that annoying, he can just skip all the posts, little harm done. In the case of the GTA speaker, my audition of an old product showed superiority to any Maggie I have heard. I expect the latest revision to blow them away. Since Maggies have been discussed here many times in the present and past, GTA is very relevant here. Faxer also sells other products which are not relevant to Maggies, so he doesn't mention them here. I think this is all fair and appropriate.
I even think that Audiogon benefits from so-called shilling, because more awareness of products helps everyone and makes A-gon a more comprehensive resource. The annoyance to some people is minor, because they can always bypass the posts, and nobody is forcing them to buy the product.
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Maybe I missed your comparison of the Gryphon Colloseum with Constellation Taurus amps. Amp differences still swamp cable differences.
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WC,
As ricevs and thezaks also request, please review the Merrill 118 and demo it against the Gryphon before they all go. We haven't heard much of the 20.7, so do the A/B before the 20.7 goes. "Keith don't go" is still your best demo recording.
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speedbump6, You know more about Tektons than I, and I am interested in your listening evaluations, comparing Moab to Ulf. I imagine the Ulf with all Be tweeters to be killer, but above 300 Hz, the Moab with all Be tweeters would be equivalent at $14K. The Ulf below 300 Hz would probably be superior, since the upper bass is handled by the smaller faster driver in accordance with the designer's concepts. |
thieliste,
What is your taste, and how is the Mephisto better than the CH M1.1? According to Mike Fremer, the CH has vastly different tonal signature depending on how much negative feedback (NF) is used. More NF = colder/detailed sound, less NF = warmer sound. Did you try the different NF settings to compare with the Mephisto? Was your listening done at home or at the dealer?
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kren0006,
Before you spend $30K, have an open mind what the new GaN may do for you--lots of very affordable ones to consider as ricevs mentioned. You and Jay just didn’t like the HF quality of my Rouge, but Jay was surprised at its bass and dynamic performance which rivaled anything he has owned for these qualities. You would definitely like the $15K Merrill 114 I heard, and the $3K Voyager is probably competitive sonically. Overcome your prejudice against very cheap stuff. Just read the long LSA Voyager thread. If someone likes neutrality, the $3K Benchmark is tops in that area. I challenged Jay to get it and do an A/B of that with his King Neutral new amp. But since you like clarity allied with some warmth, I can’t think of a better amp than the Voyager that you should try. To risk $600 or $450 if the restocking fee is only 15%, is much safer than getting your interim Luxman integrated which you will take a much bigger loss on when you sell or trade it for Gryphon Essence, etc.
Note that I have zero business interests in the Voyager, so I am not biased. As daveyf just said, buy sound, not weight and bling jewelry.
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shannere,
Much of what you say is true. For power at higher volumes, the larger woofer is better. But the larger woofer has more mass, so the smaller one is more nimble and probably has more clarity at low/moderate volume. This principle of how smaller drivers are more nimble with greater clarity than larger drivers is utilized by Eric Alexander, the designer of the Tekton Design speakers. The 14 tweeters have the equivalent drive power as a single 9" midrange. Everyone who owns the various Tekton models, including grey9hound here, has commented on their extraordinary clarity. I mentioned the Tekton here because of its use of small drivers down to 300 Hz, similar to the use of the tweeter of the Fyne Audio top models down to 750 Hz. I believe that is a main factor in the clarity of both companies' speakers. The cheaper Fyne speakers use a different tweeter down to only 1800 or 1900 Hz, and the larger driver below that, so the crucial midrange from 750-1800 Hz would have better clarity from the smaller driver in the top models.
You preferentially value bass in music, which is fine for the rock/pop that you mostly listen to, but most melodic content of all music is in the midrange, with HF providing the needed harmonics of that. Since bass instruments have lots of midrange and HF harmonics, in order to accurately reveal the total sound of these instruments, accuracy in mids and HF is essential. Otherwise, the bass sounds boomy and is at best powerful, but without its true articulation.
How much do you know about symphonic music? With the exception of organ music, there is no deep bass in most pieces from the years 1500 to 1800. Even after 1800, there is a sprinkling of deep bass here and there, but the main musical content is well above 50 Hz. There is a popular piece often used in demos, Saint Saens Organ Symphony, which does have organ notes but no lower than 32 Hz. I admit that the sections of deep organ notes are missing on my system, but I am not willing to sacrifice midrange/HF clarity for most music so I can play this piece and a few others.
Everyone must make choices with compromises. No system does everything superlatively well. Go to a live, unamplified concert and sit close to get everything.
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thieliste,
Thanks for your elaboration on the Mephisto amp. As I understand you, the Mephisto gives a combination of the tube sound of the Aries Cerat and the "precision" of the CH Precision.
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speedbump6,
I have been following you on the interesting Tekton Design Moab thread. Tell everyone here about what other speakers you compared with the Moab and the flagship Ulf (I'll never remember the full name and its correct spelling, lol). If I wanted to get ONE dynamic driver speaker with a rating of 9 in everything, I would get the Moab with all Be tweeters for $14K. Best value would be the standard Moab at $4.5K.
grey9hound,
Do the same for your beloved Double Impact.
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kren0006,
A lot of your stuff really IS high end. I've heard original Spendor mini monitors, although not your model. I trust your description of it as displaying good clarity, and I would probably much prefer it to the hyped, expensive Sonus Faber line, which is noted for its warmth. I wouldn't listen to SF if you paid me. Much expensive stuff is really mediocre. So is cheap stuff. You have to be diligent to find great stuff that is cheap, but it exists.
Class D is a great place to go for excellent (if not SOTA) sound at a very cheap price. GaN's relative warmth is suited to you, and I'm confident that if you compare some GaN's to what you already own, and do A/B's with warmish Gryphon Essence and Boulder for about 10x the price, you will be impressed.
Come on Jay, you've already tried the Simaudio stuff. Now that you value neutrality, this is a great opportunity to A/B the Benchmark AHB2 (Prince Neutral) with your King Neutral amp. The AHB2 is a unique case of class H, or some unusual feed-forward technology that has been around a long time. It is not class D, but its sound quality, compactness and price make it very compelling to see whether BIG BIG buck amps significantly improve upon it in every sonic parameter.
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WC,
The ARC ref 6se is not a typical tubey type preamp. In your video with the ARC and 20.7, I didn't hear any tubey quality. The Dag HD preamp might be more tubey than the ARC. Years ago you said the ref 6 was more focused and defined than the ref 10. Try the ref 6 and Merrill Christine preamps with the Mephisto.
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WC,
I cringe when I repeatedly visualize the laceration on your left hand from lifting amps with sharp heatsinks. Use thick work gloves, please.
I really don't want to take sides and stir up controversy, but techno_dude merely made a factual comment about how the power you now hear could be due to the new speaker or new amp, or possibly both.
Your journey is very picturesque and appreciated, but it would be even more meaningful if you settled down a little, stopping to smell the flowers, getting to know your components in more depth. You still haven't rated the Merrill. I hope you do that, and present a video music A/B of the Mephisto vs Merrill, a battle of the M's. Nominally, the power rating of the Merrill 118 is greater than the Mephisto, and even my small electrostatic speakers let me appreciate the power of the 114, which is still only half the power of your 118. But sound quality is more important, so let's hear this shootout. This shootout would be more informative than the first 3 top things to do. Items 4 and 5 are still the most important priorities, since they are about getting the most from the new speaker.
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I asked about midrange and HF, thanks. The Bryston 4B SST2 had more balls in bass than my 2.5B SST2, but was vastly inferior to the 2.5 in the musically important midrange/HF, at modest volumes, of course.
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carey1110,
Classical music is so complex that there can never be too much resolution. All recordings have flaws, but higher resolution enables you to hear more of the good. The trick is to be aware of the flaws, but look on the good side to show the intricate details. As speedbump6 nicely put it, don't go for the lowest common denominator where both the virtues and flaws are thrown away. |
goodsource,
Specs don't tell the whole story--we all know that. For example, all amps are flat down to 20 Hz or lower. When I heard the Merrill 114, it was much more dynamic and deep compared to my other amps, which are lighter in character. Similar reasoning for speakers. Aside from slightly more bass extension, the larger bass drivers of the Alexia vs the DAW may create more power and ease in the midbass. In classical music which has deep bass in only a few pieces, most of the bass power resides in the midbass.
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WC's Wilsons sound much clearer than at a well known dealer. I hated their muddy quality in a modest sized room where they were close to the front wall. (This was also true of Avalons close to the front wall). In their larger room, a larger Wilson was well out into the room, and sounded much clearer. It wasn't due to the larger Wilson, but due to room placement.
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WC,
I don't know whether you are serious, but it would be a great idea to introduce your little girl to great sound, with a small system for her room. A great minimonitor like the Falcon LS3/5a, or the small Paradigm Persona model B with all Be drivers. Get the fairly powerful $2500 MSRP Mytek Brooklyn Amp for her. She has better ears than both of us put together, and might say, "daddy, I hear more detail on my little speakers than on your big system, and the bass in my small room is strong enough for me. I'm scared of monsters." |
We'll have to settle this debate with a video A/B of Mephisto and Merrill. Talk is cheap, but listening is everything.
WC,
I should explain better. Appreciation of high performance car and jet engines is awe-inspiring and fun. Same for the air whizzing around you from riding a motorcycle or motorboat, although I hate the noise which damages hearing. I lift the maximum weights and do as many pushups and chin-ups as I can. So I get where you are coming from when you like powerful sound. But you also value clarity. In my experience there is a tradeoff between power and delicate clarity. For example, the Merrill 114 is more powerful and dynamic than my little Bryston, but the Bryston is more nimble and delicate. For the nuances of soft guitar and voice, you would like the Bryston better, but for deep bass of rock, you would prefer the Merrill.
goodsource,
Still, "overall performance" is vague. Most people would say the Merrill beats my little Bryston for overall performance. But for certain parameters like tight focus, neutrality and clarity which are my priorities, the overall performance of my Bryston "beats" the Merrill. Other people who would hate the lean bass and cooler tonality of the Bryston, would say the overall performance of the Merrill is better. I understand many people's other priorities, but no matter what the priorities are, the objective characteristics of sound can be described, and they can be commonly understood if the different listeners have perceptive hearing and musical understanding.
techno,
Again I agree with most of what you say, but I wouldn't call WC's endeavors a scam. Scam implies insincerity or misrepresentation, which WC is certainly not and doesn't do. He has similar tastes as me at times (clarity, etc.), but different values for his other music. Still, I have learned from him about different products I have never heard. |
mahgister,
I agree with much you said. In particular, the piano sound in the room is totally different from the piano on a large stage in the hall. Even a small piano in the room sounds heavy like an elephant, whereas a grand or baby grand piano on a large stage has delicacy and focus. I do like small speakers in the room reproducing the piano, which give it the delicacy and focus of piano on the large stage. Mini monitors in the bedroom are great for this.
I encourage you to listen to the video I posted at the bottom of p 369. The baby grand piano is on a small stage projecting into the narrow but long room (not shown). The long room gives the piano breathing room, and prevents the ugly elephant in the room congested sound. The cheap mike from the camera is only a few feet away from the piano. No garbage studio processing. This is a great example of the kind of recorded piano sound I prefer. What do you think of it?
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goodsource,
Good questions. In reality, when you have a speaker you love, even if it is modestly priced, you want to get the best ancillary components that you can afford. It may seem crazy to spend all that money on Odin speaker cable which alone could be more than the price of the speakers, but if you seek the highest transparency, you go for it. However, I have found that all the fairly expensive speaker cables I have tried over 40 years are inferior in clarity than my plain zip cord. Try it, and don't let high end snobbish attitudes dissuade you. For RCA interconnects, I love my Nordost Frey 2, and my Nordost Vishnu power cords. |
kren0006,
I actually considered an ARC class D power amp many years ago. It was one of the first serious class D amps from a prestigious company. I read some reviews, so their characterization of the ARC as typical of their mildly warmish sound philosophy turned me away. Way back in the early 80's, I borrowed an ARC SP6B tube preamp. It had much more definition than my Frank Van Alstine modded Dyna PAS 3 preamp, with much more neutrality. I delighted that tubes can be neutral and detailed, although my later Theta tube preamp was better for these qualities. Still, ARC coined an excellent trademark, High Definition, indeed.
5 years ago, Steve let me borrow his Luxman M600A power amp, a stereo 30W/ch pure class A. It had excellent clarity and neutrality, but was a little fuzzy at times. It weighed 60 lbs, a lot for only 30 watts/ch. So I believe you that the Luxman integrated would probably be a step up from your ARC. Don't rely on store auditions to make a decision--you must try it at home.
Seeing how my Rouge competed in several ways with Jay's Mystery amp, and how the LSA Voyager may have HF that have more finesse and elegance than my Rouge, I am surmising that the LSA Voyager would be a hit for most of this group, and seriously compete on all levels with the Mystery amp, offering much the same type of sound. Too bad Jay sold the Mystery amp before anyone had a chance to send him the Voyager. I still maintain that the Voyager at $3K could be at least the equal of the G Essence, Boulder 1160 for you. If you don't need additional gain from a preamp, you could get the passive preamp (Luminous, very cheap) which mrdecibel has found superior to any active preamp he tried. Use it with the Voyager power amp, and you have a budget preamp/power amp for less than $4K which probably outperforms anything else you are considering at 10x that price.
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Absolutely serious. Don't waste time and space criticizing me. Just open your mind, get the Voyager, and report back.
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trudat,
You are correct that less bass gives a psychoacoustic impression of more detail. Zip cord does reveal less bass than thicker cables. But when I played music with no significant bass, the thicker cables were grossly murky compared to zip. Mapleshade makes thin speaker cables because they heard what I did with thick cables. Actually, I enjoy TIGHT bass, which is less full and sounds less brawny powerful than lower quality bass.
carey1110,
What were the characteristics of zip cord that you heard and didn't like? |
