axememan,
My choice for top value with excellent sound is the Mytek Brooklyn Amp, now $2500 retail. This uses modified Pascal class D modules. It is fast, neutral, smooth with excellent detail. I have been happily using it for over 1 year while I wait to see whether any amp has significantly better sound for much more money.
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tweak1,
I am eagerly awaiting your opinion of the EVS 1200 from Ric Schultz. Your AA DPA-1, my Mytek, and the EVS 1200 are all similarly priced custom class D implementations. I am guessing that they are competitive in performance. Perhaps the EVS 1200 is the most transparent, since that is Ric's goal. Reviews are tainted by magazine politics, etc., so your findings will be of interest to many value seekers here.
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What's tinder? Do you have a link, or is my question ignorant? As with audio, what have been your experiences comparing live views of people with pictures or videos of them? Drastic photoshopping can slim down a fat person, so that is misleading. But even skilled makeup on a beautiful woman will not make her as head-turning in a video or picture as live. Both ways will be beautiful, but I have always gasped at the greater beauty seen live.
The relevance of this to my audio preferences is obvious.
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WC,
Which solid tech stand did you order, and what is the cost? I have been reading about the complete isolation solutions offered by Stillpoints, including their hugely expensive rack at $9000 and up. The review by Roy Gregory on their site suggests that the stand is most important, followed by speakers and electronics.
Has anyone here had experience with any part or the whole Stillpoints system?
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I doubt I will spend big money on a rack. The Stillpoint reviews have a difference of opinions on where the priorities are. Some say to first use the footers under the CD or other source, others say to start with the rack. It is common knowledge that under the speakers is critical. Since I am just starting to learn about isolation products, I have an open mind. I suppose the complete systems approach of Stillpoints is valid, but as usual we should do our own experimenting.
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Also, why do we spend big money on vacations to see beautiful lakes, mountains, colorful towns, when we could just look at free brochures and entertaining videos from travel companies? These brochure pictures were taken on perfect days, but when we get there, the weather may not be ideal, but the live experience is not to be compared to the images of it. Even the word, "image" is the same as "imaginary", which is why the reality of live unamplified music is so much better than the "imaginary" audio system. I know everyone has their subjective preferences, but I try to capture as best as I can the shocking reality of the live quality in my audio system, so I can gasp and see the goosebumps on my legs, rather than just politely say, "I am relaxed in my subdued mood."
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tweak1,
Do you find the concentric midrange tweeter of the Emerald Physics superior to that range of the Maggie 3.5R? The imaging and focus of the Emerald may be better, but how about the clarity?
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WC,
The Dynaudio is a great choice and should sound interesting. I like the symmetrical design of the drivers whereby small instruments with more HF dominance will have the proper smaller, focused imaging as in real life for flutes, triangles, voices, etc. Bigger low freq instruments will have larger imaging as in real life, because of the use of all drivers. Large panels have large imaging in both HF and low freq which is not true to life. The question is whether the purity of the dynamic drivers will approach that of the stat driver. See how the magnesium silicate polymer compares to the beryllium of the Persona or the materials of Magico. I remember the original Esotar tweeter which was wonderful, but may have been handicapped by mediocre midrange and bass drivers of the past.
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Yes, I almost bought the AHB2 after a 60 day trial. It didn't quite beat my unique Bryston 2.5B SST2 amp for clarity/neutrality, but it was close, and better than everything else I have heard at home. I still consider the AHB2 a giant killer. The only amp that might beat it is the Mephisto.
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There is a new review of the Merrill 118 on Soundstage Ultra, dated 7/15/19. The author says it is a little more neutral and clear than a Simaudio. Let's see what WC finds with the 116 vs Rowland 925. |
briano,
Your lengthy post above is an interesting mixture of satire and sense. As you know, good designers start by respecting engineering and science. Actual results will vary somewhat from theoretical expectations, but audio is not a bunch of random combinations that will magically create high fidelity, regardless of the humorous mood.
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briano,
No, I got your satire, but the main purpose of this and other threads is sharing experience rather than humor, although a sprinkling of humor is OK. My post about the Dynaudio C4 was just to predict that the imaging would be more true to life than the diffuse imaging of large panels like the Neo, due to the factors I mentioned. There is no way I can accurately predict the tonal balance/clarity of the total sound, but my prediction of the imaging can come closer. Since I have limited time and inclination to hear everything available, I utilize my understanding to limit the field to what I might be interested in. I never plunk down serious money for anything without a good, extended audition at home first. I have made errors trying to audition at dealers or even friends' homes, but they serve as a starting point to then seek an audition at my place later. Of course, shows are largely ridiculous for auditioning purposes--too many unknowns.
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WC,
Even though the room is not complete, it would be interesting to hear the Merrill vs Rowland on the floor with a simple input like the Oppo and volume control if you still have it. The more live empty room is not the final acoustic you will have, but the essential difference between the Rowland and Merrill amps should still be apparent. At the very least, you could casually break in the Merrill if it is relatively new.
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WC,
Since most of your goodies are still in the other room, you could quickly regain your reference Rowland sound in your mind. Each 118 weighs only 65 lbs so you could briefly move them to the other room and do the A/B there at moderate levels so you don't disturb the family. Besides, for your critical evaluations of nuances, you have usually listened at moderate levels. Viber7 on the Merrill thread had an informative comparison of various top amps with the 118. My only caveat is that the Christine preamp softened the transients of the 118, but his Chord DAVE directly connected to the 118 showed full speed ahead. So you might want to use the Rowland Corus preamp to A/B the 925 with the 118.
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WC,
Thanks. As you continue to listen, please comment on the tonality of 925 vs 118 on the spectrum of cold/sterile/analytic/ruthlessly unforgiving at one end, vs warm/sweet/lush/forgiving at the other end. I hope they are still in the living room, where you remember the sound of the Block, perhaps your favorite amp for nearly everything.
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WC,
With the wall to wall thick carpeting and low ceiling, the room looks like the acoustics will be fairly dead already. After you do more listening to the Merrill and Rowland in the living room, you can put your Neos and other equipment in the new room as is, listen, and then decide what room treatments you want. You can try thinner carpets and less floor covering to liven it up. A little bare floor gives life and beauty to the sound without much uncontrolled reverberation. I liked your living room with the combination of floor tile and rug. All the large theater chairs will further deaden the sound, so don't commit to acoustic panels until you work on the floor first. Just as it has taken years to decide what your favorite electronics and sources are, it will take time to optimize the room.
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One advantage of a deader room is that you hear the acoustics of the recording alone, instead of a quirky combination of the acoustics of the room AND the recording. Spatial clarity is improved, although the tonal quality is more delicious in a more live room. Personally, I like the tonal quality in Boston's Symphony Hall better than Carnegie Hall in NY. Carnegie is all carpet with plush seats, but Boston has no carpet and the seats are utilitarian wood seats. When filled with people to absorb sound, this creates overall lively sound. The stage where the musicians perform never has carpet in any hall or studio. Yeah, I know you went through a lot of work with all the installations, but you would enjoy the experiments with more or less floor covering. You could even get some of the same floor tile you have in the living room, cover up the carpet, like the Bath Fitter company which installs the new tub over the old, and see how much life you can get in this manner, putting more tile in various locations. I promise that this will be worth all the effort, but first listen with the present carpet with the complete system to get a baseline reference point.
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WC,
Thanks, very informative. Since viber7 found the Christine preamp to have softened transients and the 118 by itself to have sharper transients, it would be interesting to see what you find with the Rowland Corus preamp, although Rowland seems to have a little euphonic, sweetened house sound according to your findings.
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WC,
Although I credit Guido with being the first to mention Merrill here, I was the first to predict that it would make the uber expensive dinosaur technology amps in vogue to be ready for the trash can. The 116 has 75% of the power of the 118 at only 61% of the price. It should provide plenty of power at sane SPL's. Merrill says that even the 114, although stereo is very nearly as good, at "only" $15K. The 114 is still a high powered amp by most people's definition. At sensibly loud SPL's, the 114 will still probably beat any other amp you've heard in the ways you mention. |
WC,
As maplegrovemusic said, those other stat speakers will rival and probably beat the Neo. I say probably because I haven't heard the Neo although I have heard many of the other ML models. I like the Sound Lab least because of the huge curved panel that rolls off the highs compared to the others which are correctly designed flat panels. The larger Sound Lab model panels are larger than the Neo with great electrostatic bass. I have a friend in NY whose Sound Lab A3 was still large and excellent, but he couldn't get more than $500 when he eventually sold them, only because his wife...you know the story. I almost bought the original King Sound King which maplegrovemusic uses. It has the best snap/speed of any electrostatic except my own, although the image is too large for me, but you will like it. He has the even taller KS17 model. You could fly out to him and hear them. There was a guy in Conn who was selling the King for $2500 on USAudiomart. The only problem is support, because King Sound is a Hong Kong company, but for $2500 there is little risk.
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WC,
How about the Rowland Corus vs the Merrill Christine preamps with the Merrill 118? As long as the input impedance of the amp is more than 10x the output impedance of the preamp, there should be no incompatibility issues. No need to follow the marriage package of Rowland vs Merrill. Mix it up to see what you get. You may end up becoming the leading Merrill dealer in the South. Seriously.
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WC,
Which Wireworld Eclipse 7 XLR are you using--the top platinum, or the next in line silver? Did you compare them? Actually, the platinum is a misnomer since it uses the highest quality silver. Now they have the 8 series.
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WC,
Please, before you let go of the Neo, put the lighter amps and preamps into your living room where the Neo is, and do the listening. You know the reference sound in that room better than the new room, and the Neo has the wonderful stat midrange which will be near impossible to duplicate with a nonstat dynamic speaker. The parttimeaudiophile review of the 118/Christine makes a few interesting observations on the tone quality of the Merrills, but the second guy makes a big mistake by fully boosting the treble of his speaker. In itself, that is OK, because I do the same with my EQ, but he doesn't tell us how his other preamp/amp compares with the Merrills with that same tweeter boost. Why did he need to boost the tweeter when he didn't boost it with his reference stuff? Does that imply that the Merrills are rolled off in the highs? The first guy said that the tone was a little warmer than neutral, heading in the direction of the big Macs. I really want to get your final judgment on the combination of the Corus + 118, Christine +118, Corus + 925, Christine + 925. This is best done with the pure midrange of the Neo. People trust your ears more than the 4 ears of the reviewers, whose speakers have inferior midrange to your Neo.
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RIAA,
I know Dave from Audio Doctor in Jersey City. He let me take lots of stuff, each for several days to a week. He gave me the credit card slip back when I didn't buy, but I did buy a few things on that basis. For the more expensive Mola Mola Kaluga, I gave Bill Parish of GTT Audio a check to hold, which he returned when I brought it back a week later. A real gentleman. There are other examples. Pure retail without returns is dead. Maybe such a store can sell to the novice, but they will not make a sale to the enlightened experienced customer with that attitude.
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ricred1,
It seems that you want a little warmth but more detail with tighter bass than the JR 925 gives you. If the recent parttimeaudiophile review is to be believed, plus the comments of WC and viber7 and several other reviews on the Merrill 118, then the Merrill 114 might be your ticket. It is "reasonably" priced, still powerful, and very close to the performance of the 118, according to Merrill.
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thezaks,
Excellent points for discussion. YES, distance matters. Violins and other instruments with HF content will sound mellower and sweeter at a greater distance because short wavelengths of HF are preferentially absorbed at the greater distance. A concertgoer who always sits in the 10th row will think that the violin sounds mellow and sweet, but if he moves to the 1st row it sounds brighter with more HF content, allowing for the fact that it is louder. How to resolve this issue? Most recordings are made with close microphone placement, roughly equivalent to the 1st row. So to make valid live vs recorded comparisons, you must sit in the 1st row. The accurate, truthful system will sound like the 1st row, but the sweet rolled off system will sound like the 10th row. People may prefer the 10th row, but that means they do not prefer accuracy.
I am not qualified to answer the question about how different amps will sound on a given stand. Amps have different materials, weight, construction, so how they interact with a known stand is only answerable by listening tests. My guess is that since the Artesania stand increases the clarity/focus of the Dag 250 amp, it will do the same for other amps. Without the stand, if the Sim has more clarity than the Dag, I bet the Sim with the stand will have still more clarity. It won't have any artificial or hyped-up clarity. If you study classical music printed music (scores), there is so much complex information that needs to be revealed, so there is never too much clarity. Think of it like this--suppose the Sim without the stand sounds like the 1st row, then the Sim with the stand will sound like you are on stage even closer to the musicians. The Dag without the stand is like the 5th row, and with the stand like the 2nd row.
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RIAA,
More listening teaches us to learn more which may change our views. The only way to be sure about the effect of the stand is to do an A/B with and without the stand, keeping the rest of the components the same. |
Trainsam,
Look at the new thread on the EVS 1200 by tweak1. His experience with this new amp is that it beats PS Audio and Audio Alchemy for power and incisiveness, for just $2200. Still, I have no doubt that PS Audio beats many more costly amps.
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WC,
Thanks for posting the Sim review. "This Moon produces a revelation in transparency without seeming to add any song and dance of its own." That's my point. The reviewer gives examples of how there are many colors revealed, depending on the music. It is not desirable to add arbitrary electronic colorations like sweetness--just appreciate the unvarnished truth of the music itself, in its NATURAL colors. Still, If you love the music on certain recordings but hate the recorded sound, then you could EQ according to the recording. All of your processed recordings are EQ'd by the engineers anyway, so you could undo their choices and make your own. I don't use any preamp, except for the small gain and volume control on my Rane ME 60 EQ. As mrdecibel confirms, because he sold me his tweaked Rane, the Rane electronics are competitive in transparency with most preamps. But the opportunity to adjust the sound to correct flaws in recordings, speakers and rooms is an overwhelming advantage that vastly outweighs the slight colorations of an EQ's electronics. If you like the recording, you could keep the EQ in the flat setting, have a great preamp as the Rane, and then fully enjoy the superiority of a Sim type amp. Even your idol, Dag man has an EQ feature in his HD preamp, and the Momentum Integrated amp that you found useful 1-2 years ago. Since you love the HD preamp, experiment with its EQ feature.
The major deficiency of the review is that there are no specific comparisons with other amps in his system. Stereophile reviews don't have this deficiency. But all published reviews are tainted by bias according to which manufacturer is paying for ads. You have the advantage of not having bias from whoever could fund you, so please do your verbal comparisons and present video A/B's as well. Don't get rid of amps or anything until you have had the opportunity to present your findings. Thanks.
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WC,
Great article. A demo in a retail shop is of limited use, since the customer needs to take home the product to see how it works in his system. Maybe well set up speakers can give an idea of what they sound like. The main problem for the retailer is overhead for a lot of floor space and inventory. If the retailer had just 1 room, with a few unused speakers on the side, it would cut the overhead and prices could be lowered. The retailer could be used as a paid consultant for new technologies like servers/networks. As for the claims of some retailers that say that more speakers in a room will cause interactions with the ones you are listening to, this is a relatively trivial effect. Retail must be saved, and the only way is to cut overhead.
All this serves to emphasize the value of what you are doing. Just slow down the revolving door so you have time to evaluate and present your findings. |
WC,
I just had a lovely conversation with Merrill W. I will meet him at the 9/29 event at the VPI house in NJ. He likes the smallest Genesis model which is just over 4 feet tall, has lots of body with clarity throughout the freq range. Most important, it is very adjustable with many drivers, enabling tailoring of the sound to your liking.
Ask yourself why the Dynaudio C4 doesn't satisfy you. If you still have the Paradigm Persona 3F, it might give a fuller sound in the new room with the low ceiling. I still say that the ML CLX with REL subs would give the purest full range sound that is reasonably dynamic although not like the Neo. You will soon get bored with any dynamic speaker whose clarity is no match for the CLX/REL. The CLX is the right height for the new room.
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Good question. How does the 118 sound with the Rowland preamp vs Merrill preamp?
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ricevs,
Thanks for the info. However, the reviewer of the Yeti merely says the sound is ooh & ahh, amazing, etc. He doesn't describe the "improvement" in sound in meaningful ways. The same goes for his review of the heavy and pricey Stromtank. The PS Audio Power Plants are theoretically perfect also, but some reviews have described the sound as smooth and warm. How do we know that these AC generators or inverters aren't creating some distortion of their own? Where are the measurements? What specific sound differences have you found using the Yeti? Also, the Goal Zero site doesn't seem to have the Yeti 3000 which would be more useful than the 400.
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Also, tweak the toe in on the 3.7i. It will be MUCH better with the toe in as I described. I certainly understand keeping the interest on your thread and youtube channel high by bringing in new things, but make sure you really get the most out of everything you try. Many people want to hear the 3.7i shootout with the best amps you have--Gryphon, Merrill. |
WC,
Please keep the 3.7i for a good while until you at least thoroughly break it in, and use it to do all the trials you want with Gryphon, Merrill, Sim (in the future again), cables, etc. The Wilson and Dag amp will get you most of the money you need. Besides, you said the 3.7i was by far the best purchase you made this year, and you regret not doing it years ago. And finally, it is the most revealing speaker you have had, with the best sound quality you have heard except for very deep bass. These are your own statements, seconded by me. No conventional dynamic speaker at any price will exceed the overall sound quality of the 3.7i. Once you have learned all you can from the 3.7i, the next logical move would be the GTA for about $20K. With another $10K or so for its matching subs, you will have everything you want. It is a better version of the 3.7i, and its 90+ dB efficiency will permit low power amps to be appreciated, and then you can review all amps at any price, low or high.
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WC,
I am not disagreeing, but just pointing out some lack of consistency in your assessment of the Ayre. A tubey sounding unit cannot have extended HF at the same time. "Sparkle" is a good way to describe HF because that's what we hear and commonly relate to. Few listeners have test labs to measure HF perceptions, and the lab tests don't tell the story anyway.
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grey9hound,
Did you consider the $4500 Moabs which use the double tweeter array? The Double impact at $3000 has a single tweeter array (my error above), which probably has an advantage of a smaller but more focused midrange and HF image than the Moab. Perhaps the single array models are brighter than the double array models, which may make certain bright recordings less enjoyable to you than the double array models would. If you wanted to upgrade the Double Impact with Be tweeters, the extra cost would be only $3500 compared to $9500 for the Be upgrade on the Moab.
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I can afford anything discussed here or anywhere. But I know overpriced mediocrities. There are very few audio components that are investments from the money point of view. Most are bad losers. And throwing out false statements about me is worse than any incorrect comments I may make about components I haven't personally heard at home. Even if my statements are incorrect, they are not far from the truth, since I have listened to similar components from the same brand which usually has a house sound. And I have a good technical understanding of things. For example, a 15" driver is capable of more bass than a 5" driver, so there is no need to listen to a 5" driver if someone claims that it outdoes the 15" in bass.
For the record, shannere, more of your posts are about criticizing me, than contributing useful info. I recommended the Maggies a long time ago to WC. He finally tried them, and admitted that he should have done this a long time ago. If he doesn't mention me as providing help, his actions certainly reveal that he appreciates it. He always asks for comments, which he is entitled to, because he puts out the money, and free advice is always helpful. The fact that you think I am ordering him to do anything, tells the reader about your lack of understanding. |
Aside from bass, what do you find better about the Focal scala evo compared to the Dynaudio C4? Also compared to Magico? |
Why would the Panasonic be better for sound than the Oppo but not for CD sound? Pure music in movies is often brief and fleeting, so it is hard to judge. Try some CD's that include spoken voice, such as the Chesky Jazz Sampler. I like the tracks starting with 10, which test left/right separation, depth. You can hear the voice as well as tambourine at 1 foot to 12 feet.
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I will add that I used the Merrill 114 at home, which Merrill says is very close in tonal character to the 118. When I went back and read the published reviews of the 116 and 118, they were factually consistent with my findings on the 114, confirming Merrill's statement. Reviews have some use, but reading between the lines requires filters that ignore the passions of the reviewer, like "this amp does it for me, is the cat's meow, etc." So my interest in other amps WC reviews, in comparison to the Merrill, is useful to me because I can then figure out what he means and what they sound like, since we both have experience with the Merrill. Other people here who are familiar with any component that WC has used, can do the same, and come away with much more info. |
Surprise shock--I hear the Dag sounding a little clearer and less congested than the Gryphon. But the Dag has the advantage of the stand whereas the Gryphon is not able to be used with the stand. I assume the AQ Hurricane HC power cord was used for both amps. Earlier I said that the stand turns the rolled off Dag into a clear/neutral Sim, for example. If you found that the Dag without the stand is in the sweet, rolled off camp and the Gryphon is in the detail camp, now it appears that the stand has reversed these findings. Please do an A/B of the Dag with and without the stand. Same for Sim (please get it again) with and without the stand, and then the ultimate A/B of Sim and Dag both with the stand.
If you confirm with other music that the standless Gryphon loses some clarity vs the Dag with stand and AQ power cord, then the Gryphon is way overpriced if a $5000 stand can give an advantage to Dag and maybe other cheaper amps like Sim.
My guesses for your upcoming speakers are Klipsch, Maggie 3.7 or similar.
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techno_dude, I don't understand your comment. WC found both the Luxman and Dag in the same camp of sweetness, but the Sim and Gryphon in the other camp of detail/neutrality. Ignoring the cost factor, if you like Luxman then you would like Dag and prefer either to the Sim or Gryphon. What is surprising to me is that the stand makes such a big difference that I hear the Dag + stand to have more detail and neutrality than the Gryphon, the top amp WC chose for these qualities, although he admitted that the Gryphon does have a touch of sweetness and warmth. |
WC, Previously you found the AQ Dragon to have more detail/clarity than the Hurricane, which was sweeter/warmer. Since I heard more clarity with the Dag + Hurricane + stand vs Gryphon + Dragon without stand, I would expect Dag + Dragon + stand to have an even greater improvement in clarity over the Gryphon + Dragon. I don't see any incompatibility of Hurricane + Dag, since I liked it! Listening to other music is needed. Maybe I was confused by the highly processed recording in the last video. Go back to Keith Don't Go, even if you might be tired of it. Do the other A/B's I suggested. |
Sorry kren, but clarity is not a subcategory but influences everything. Clarity improves QUALITY and lowers distortion in all ranges--bass, midrange, HF. You seem to like QUANTITY of bass, which is the same as fullness. Some electronics emphasize quantity of bass to the detriment of tightness and purity of bass, and the midrange, HF. But amps with greater clarity are even-handed across the freq range, with no detriments anywhere. Clarity with tight bass is enhanced by clarity of bass instrument overtones in midrange and HF. And this remarkable stand seems to offer a tightness and clarity that improves the entire freq range, although further listening would probably show that bass fullness is reduced. |
WC,
I remember you found the Ref 6 more detailed and focused (less mellow-tubey) than the Ref 10. It will be interesting to see how the Ref 6 compares to the Rowland Corus preamp which you found more mellow/sweet than the Merrill Christine preamp. Sugar/sweetness--tube vs solid state.
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kren,
You are going to extremes by saying "Clarity is worthless if the amp cannot produce the entire sound spectrum of the song." In reality, even a lousy amp can transmit the 20-20kHz spectrum with reasonably low measured distortion at all freq. That’s the starting point, and from there we can talk about revealing nuances of the music. It doesn’t matter what type of music we like, clarity is the most important and universal attribute that reveals any of it. Other audiophile criteria like depth, width, separation and soundstage focus will be best revealed if there is clarity. Lesser clarity will compromise all these other attributes, or subcategories, to use your description. If you have 30 seconds in an elevator with someone who has heard something of interest, you don’t have time to hear a 3000 word review--just ask 4 words--"how is the clarity?" You will get what you need to know without wishy washy BS. |
mayoradamwest,
I got the latest Stereophile yesterday. Mike Fremer reviews the Boulder 508 phono preamp and finds it tonally a nice happy medium between the articulation of his CH Precision and richness of his Ypsilon preamp. As far as reviewers go, I find Mike to be honest and informative with great experience. Of course YMMV. Will you be able to hear the new Boulder 1160 amp at home soon?
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WC,
Don't worry about ear fatigue over long listening sessions, especially with lower quality recordings. Even natural live music that is loud will cause ear fatigue after long listening. This is why great classical music is mainly soft to moderate in volume, so when the loud burst comes, it has more impact due to contrasts. This is what dynamic range and transient response are about.
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