Maggie’s and ARC are the classic combo.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Showing 50 responses by keithr
Not a majority opinion, but I think the DAW is better than the Alexx. Much more coherent without overblown bass. No, it doesn’t scale as big of course. But this whole amp exercise is relatively pointless to draw conclusions with different speakers every 6 months. You are kinda chasing your tail. Ps. Pass isn’t great on Wilson |
@techno__dude Yes, it's quite easy when reading JVS review of the Alexia 2 how (finally) the 1s flaws were "noticed." particularly his comments on coherency/timbre which weren't hard to hear on my friends and others Alexia systems. That's why I highly recommend the series 2 over the 1 and think the OP should go in that direction if he chooses Wilson. https://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-specialties-alexia-series-2-loudspeaker-jason-victor-serinus-august-2018 As far as the OP's gear relationships, who cares. He can buy, trade, and sell with whom he pleases - ironically this is coming from a forum on a *used audio sales site.* Most of us have good dealer relationships for deals and trades - this isn't unique to one person on the forum. |
Funny how @riaa rails on Philip O'Hanlon on Luxman, when he just happens to be the current Gryphon distributor and doesn't say a peep about that. Distributors are a middle man for international brands, most of us understand that. It is difficult for most brands to distribute directly and hence why almost all European and Asian brands have one - which naturally makes them more expensive. If you are in Europe, look at US brand prices sometime and be prepared to be shocked. If you want to buy all US gear, be my guest. But to continue to disparage distributors like this is silly. Especially when you still bought Accuphase, which is easily the biggest distributor rip off of all time. |
The tweakers coming out on this thread is the greatest thing ever. The one thing I’ll agree with techno on is that the chase has gone away from music and into hifi attributes (Resolution! Bass! Slam!) and “making things work.” The luxman combos have been the opposite over the years from your comments and Id bet you return to them before it’s all over. |
some general thoughts on the recent equipment vids: I really enjoy the comparison videos, but the "top 5 [x]" ones are based on multiple speakers, amps, and rooms. just don't think its proper or helpful. and you need to bring in Lamm, Vac, or other tube preamps than just ARC. point of reference, i tried a well-known tube preamp on my Rowland and it sounded like crap. on my Ampzillas, makes the best sound I've heard out of my YGs. the Maggies have a ton of promise with great soundstage and coherent bass - but dCS/Gryphon makes them sound thin and wiry like 80s cd. i'm sure you will find a better front end partner. in fact, i much prefer the Coliseum vids to the Mephisto ones - the latter is high speed with no timbre nor decay. can only hope that after 500 hours it fills out. then again, i gave up on detail, resolution, and speed years ago. that's not what i hear with live instruments but hifi guys love them attributes. good luck! can't wait to hear the MLs. |
as far as preamps, I disagree with Techno on this. i've never heard a Pandora in a familiar system, but I preferred a Music First to the MSB Premier in my house and even the Ref dac. and most think MSB passive volume controls are the best in the biz. i've heard dCS Vivaldi both ways and preferred the hybrid VTL 7.5 my dealer uses. so I'm not surprised at all WCSS prefers having a preamp in the chain with Rossini. as far as tube preamps making everything "sound good", I completely disagree. good tubes are not warm and sugar coated - they are more natural and holographic, produce correct timbre and tonal decay. so claiming SS is "neutral" is incorrect, bc its just different. and there are SS amps that produce holography, too. I'm so tired of tube = euphonic BS. that's 1980s analysis. all by a guy who owns Bryston, the sandiest of transistor amps out there. we can't have a real conversation in 2020 if we assume tube is euphonic and there is no good SS - the fact is both exist and have continued to converge in the past decade. I agree with Techno that the sonic signature is venturing further and further into "hifi" sound. the last videos are all about attack and leading edge. you can hear the mouth of a singer, but not the vocal pipe. i will be curious if he reverts back. |
@viber6 - what amps and preamps have you actually owned? Because I'm not hearing (m)any. I've owned a Bryston 4BSST. I've owned 20 other amps in the past 10 years, tube, SS, class A, class AB, SET, PP, etc. I don't rely on reviews to tell me what to think (nor does WCSS). In fact my Ampzilla 2000 2nd editions just beat the Luxman 900u, Pass X350.8, Rowland 625s2, and others on my YG speakers. Those Benchmarks you suggest are re-sold by everyone I know- just like their Dac was 10 years ago when it was hot, but dead/flat sounding. Your way isn't the highway here, despite your continued pressing on WCSS and others as to what is "neutral." Most of those awful SS amps have high order distortion that isn't "neutral." A coloration of a different kind. Nelson Pass has an excellent white paper on the subject that folks like you love to ignore. So forgive me if belittling others liking "euphony" doesn't sway us who have real experience. |
a bunch of big, boring SS behemoths with miles of transistors. I'd take Dart, Nagra, Luxman etc. over all of them on reasonably efficient speakers. that's the problem though. speakers keep getting harder and harder to drive. even old Wilsons were easy (X2), but this Alexx gets below 2 ohms in the bass. Magicos, Rockports, YG, etc. are all requiring 400 watts into 4 to wake up. Focal is one of the few that doesn't. so when WCSS raves and raves about the Mephisto, maybe that's just because its always on inefficient speakers. my guess is his tune changes on efficient ones where you really hear the first watt. |
I’d be curious what a PAP with Pass xover and XA25 or FirstWatt could do in comparison, I’ll say that. https://www.pureaudioproject.com/quintet15-wall-of-sound-open-baffle-speakers/ I wholeheartedly agree with ricevs and techno that low impedance speakers with huge phase swings is backwards as I’m coming to learn. If anything needs a Mephisto or Boulder I’ll pass. It’s all about the first watt, not the 500th. |
Well, this new direction for you sounds kinda dead. Fast, clean, and synthetic sound. Can't hear the texture on a drum whack, nor the proper decay of a guitar (and yes, I use real headphones unlike some). But what's most surprising is how your comments are the opposite of what you were describing two years ago. All about slam and detail, not music. Maybe the cost of the system and the attitude with having the "best system in Florida" is what's driving you now. Even your recent speaker comparison focused on "carpet" and expensive tweeter replacement vs sonic differences. Worried about offending manufacturers? What I have always admired about you is your brutal honesty and that all your components were yours not borrowed. Maybe that will return. Good luck in your pursuit, WCSS. I truly hope you find sonic bliss. I'll check back in a year. |
Haven’t checked in on this thread in months, Magico with big SS seems sorta boring. But I guess Wilson and Magico with the goal of hearing a pin prick on a stage is appealing to some. Meanwhile, Fyne F1-12s land in my room in a few weeks :) Figuring out what the perfect amp will be, but when 50 watts is enough there are so many options, mostly inexpensive. I’m surprised Jay hasn’t gone in this direction as an amp guy like me. |
Jay- to answer your question above, and as you of course know, there is no speaker >100k with good resale. There are a lot more options and market liquidity in the 30k-50k arena. so if you’re worried about a boat anchor, seems to me you’re playing in the wrong space. I’ll be curious how easy bright orange XLFs are to move from. I wonder if your clicks would go up at a lower luxury price point too. |
Interesting shootout and results, Jay. I'd say the videos were harder to judge over the internet than in person when you stated your preferences in different sound areas. I know I didn't prefer the same cut on each dac for all 3 videos. I upgraded to MSB Ref from Premier to come along with my new Fyne F1-12s. I'm curious how big the upgrade it will be. If not, my dealer will get a mouth full :) My justification was with high efficient speakers, the amp requirements open up a lot of lower priced alternatives so I could spend more on source. |