WC,
I have very inefficient electrostatic speakers, 75 dB, and yet I have enjoyed the purity and detail of low power amps. Of course this only applies to moderate loudness music. Actually, the high power amps are often rolled off in HF compared to low power amps at lower SPL. In my experience, the Bryston 3B SST2 and 4B SST2 are rolled off and overall dull compared to the lowest power 2.5B SST2. You just have to admire the clarity of low power amps as the compensating benefit for their shortcomings of not having enough power for other music.
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WC,
Several people here have suggested trying lower power amps, which are often more accurate than high power amps. You may not want most high efficiency speakers, but I think you might enjoy a lower power amp with the Neo for its purity for some of your music that is suitable. FWIW, a Stereophile review of the Pass XA25 showed it to have great clarity, probably greater than the soft euphonic sound of higher power Pass. The XA25 can put out 200W peaks into 2 ohms, and is relatively cheap at $5k retail.
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WC,
Don't be mad, just be glad you have all the input here. I had the Classe D200 which has the same circuit as the amp2 on a better chassis, so probably near-identical sound. The Classe D200 had good detail, with tonal character a little warmer than neutral. Your amp2 should make an excellent fun comparison to the Rowland 535. But please don't sell off the Centaur before A/B/C 'ing it with the amp2 and 535. My guess is that all 3 are excellent amps with similar degrees of clarity and tonal character. Please report your findings. The only reason to be mad is just about the money you spent on the Centaur. Irv Gross of Constellation told John Atkinson that the difference between the Inspiration and much more expensive lines is just power and weight. You would probably get very similar tone quality from the Inspiration as the Centaur. As almarg and charles1dad said in the link, quality transcends quantity. Music is about the heartfelt thoughts of the composer and its sensitive realization by the performers, not the competitive race car attitude about quantity and money.
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The Benchmark AHB2 is about accuracy, period. It is one of the very finest amps I have heard at home. Unfortunately, it clipped and shut down at relatively modest power levels with my electrostatics, much lower than would be suggested by the specs. In Kal's reviews, he uses much less toe in of his speakers with the Benchmark compared to other amps. This suggests that he doesn't like the more extended HF of the Benchmark. His favorite amps are the Classe Sigma monos, which are similar to the amp2. Based on his earlier review, I tried the D200, but their HF were not as extended as the Benchmark.
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RIAA,
I read Kal's discussion of his favorite amp, the Classe Sigma monos 1-2 years ago in the print edition of Stereophile. In his reviews of various speakers, he refers to the Classe, Benchmark and NAD amps, as I recall. You can often get further info on various amps by how they interact with the speaker being reviewed. Kal and several other Stereophile reviewers do this, a good thing. |
RIAA,
I have not personally heard the XA25, but the reviewer in Stereophile Feb 2018 is ecstatic about it. And almarg agrees. Charles1dad (who used to post here) advocates low power amps, so you should try it as long as you have it. It still has a tube-like overall sound with greater clarity according to these folks, so it would be interesting to hear what differences you find with the ARC 160, which is one of the finest relatively high powered tube amps.
BTW, you are right that review articles might be older than I think. Kal's reference, the Classe sigma monos, may be older news, perhaps 3 years ago. Perhaps he is now favoring the Benchmark, with more of a toe-out to reduce the HF coming from his speakers.
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goodsource,
The Sim 860V2 has lots of gain, 31 dB, so a passive preamp may provide enough volume in many cases. My personal preference is to avoid electronic stages when possible, which enables the highest detail/transparency. Mrdecibel has the cheap Luminous passive preamp, which he has found to beat all the active preamps he has tried for transparency/neutrality.
WC,
Agree that it is hard to convert sweetness into neutrality. Once information is lost thru sweetness, it is gone. This is especially true with sources. An old historic recording which is musically interesting because of the artist won't sound much better on a revealing system because the recording is so veiled that it is hopeless from the hifi point of view. You have found a superb amp (Sim) at a semi-reasonable price that is revealing. There are so many sweet, rolled off amps available at all prices, that it is a shame to take a relatively rare neutral gem like the Sim and convert it to a commonplace rolled off one.
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RIAA,
Sorry to hear you have tinnitus (no pun intended). If it is episodic like many of us, then the majority of the time your hearing may be good enough to discern differences in amps, etc. It would still be useful to get your evaluation of the XA25 vs ARC 160 at modest sound levels. Of course, how the Lux 900u amp compares to your other prestigious amps would be of interest. Young people may have better objective hearing measurements, but they may lack judgment about whether what they hear relates to musical reality, so we old foggies can provide useful info.
Of course, unlike what mrD said, I don't think you are a child or new to the audio game. But it is fine to have an open mind which sometimes vacillates between alternatives, to welcome guidance or hear different viewpoints. Top people in many fields confer with colleagues to get guidance. It is also nice to have more than 1 amp for different purposes, such as a pure low power one for highest sound quality, and a high power one for very loud music.
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RIAA,
OK, I understand. Still, your hearing is good enough to enable you to appreciate the differences between amps, otherwise you wouldn't be trying different amps. As far as noise is concerned, those 1950's Mercury Living Presence recordings are still fabulous even if there is lots of hiss. The hiss is steady, so it doesn't intermodulate with the music and doesn't suppress any fairly low level music to any significant degree. The recordings are fabulous because of the microphone technique and EQ which create the close, intimate presentation. This feeling overcomes the slight impediment from the hiss. If your tinnitus is similar in effect to the hiss, you can still enjoy the sound and find it useful to try different amps, etc. That said, in my car with lots of road noise which is mainly low freq, the music is significantly buried at moderately low levels.
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WC,
I agree with RIAA that the ARC 160 might have a compatibility problem with the Neo. Unlike SS amps which usually deliver more HF capability into the low impedance of stats, tubes do the opposite and can’t deliver as much output into low impedances, especially the very low impedance of the Neo. At loud levels, they are likely to sound rolled off in HF with the Neo due to this effect. But at low levels, this effect would be a lesser problem, and then the tonal quality of the ARC would be better appreciated.
Let’s see if you find the relatively small differences between the 925 and 535 that Guido found, even though he said that bridged mono 535's with the cap addition are an improvement from single 535's. The bridged 535's at $12K is an attractive proposition. To be fair, do this comparison at only moderate loudness levels so the single 535 will have plenty of power for that type of music. Of course, at very loud levels, the higher power of the 925 will give it the advantage. It is not about class D, AB. It is about the designer’s use of any topology he works with. I have found some class D amps to sound better than AB, and vice versa. |
WC,
While you are waiting for the exciting ARC 160 and Rowland 925, tell us how your Classe amp 2 compares to the Centaur and 535.
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mrdecibel,
With my little Bryston amp, I don’t hear any obvious distortion when the clipping lights go red for an instant. I have turned down the volume several notches to see when there is no red clipping, so I find that very brief clipping is not audible. Most recorded rock music is compressed, so when there is clipping it may go on for several seconds continuously, so I imagine that audible clipping would be more obvious. I am glad many amps have clipping indicators, and some amps without clipping indicators just shut down, to protect the amps and speakers.
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WC,
Thanks for your observations on the amp 2. I found the same with the Classe D200, which is the same circuit. It was smooth, a little warm and very detailed. No need for sweetening via source, preamp, DAC, cables. Classe did good R&D on their proprietary class D. I reluctantly returned the D200, and found the Mytek Brooklyn amp (also class D) to be a little better in detail and neutrality, with good power at 300W/ch into any impedance. The Mytek is a nice, light cute package for $2k. Strictly speaking, class D is SS. Class D refers to the output stage, which is SS, such as modules from Hypex, etc. But many class D amps have widely differing sound character, due to the input stage which is usually SS circuitry although some designers use tubes. The input stage can be thought of as a low level preamp stage which is obviously critical. Just don't generalize about class D, AB, or even tubes. For example, some listeners have reported neutral, SS-like sound from tubed amps like Rogue, and mellow, tube-like sound from SS amps like Pass.
Regarding the gain question, I hear no difference with my highly detailed Bryston 2.5B SST2 at 23 or 29 dB gain (of course with the gain on my Benchmark DAC adjusted to get the same volume). I had the Nuforce ref 9SE v3 which was highly detailed although with a weird tonal quality, whose gain was only 21 dB single ended. So I don't think there is a correlation between gain and resolution/tonal quality. Although I have not heard any Constellation amp at home, I believe the explanation for your findings is that the overall design of the Connie yields a little less low level resolution compared to your other amps. You had said that it is a little lacking in sparkle, which is saying the same thing. |
WC,
26 dB gain from an amp used with a preamp gain set to 3 dB will produce the same sound and volume as the same amp with 29 dB gain and the same preamp gain set to 0 dB. With poor quality volume controls at the extremes, 20 dB amp gain with 12 dB preamp gain might yield a slightly different sound from the same amp gain of 32 dB with 0 dB preamp gain, although I don't know of any amps with 12 dB switchable gain differences to do this test.
See what almarg or bill_k say.
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Oh yes, I am aware of the just released $15k Merrill Element 114 stereo amp--see that thread. I am waiting to get a well broken in sample from Merrill or a dealer. I won't be taking any loss if they are not what has been claimed, and will gladly pay retail which is very reasonable for the quality if true. I will definitely be reporting here. It promises to be an endgame amp at a bargain price for those people who know the supreme importance of clarity and neutrality. Sorry for the repetition, but it can save many people from the endless activity of merely trying different sonic flavors of the month and taking a financial beating nearly every time. Resale value for the next year or so would probably be good, since both the stereo 114 or slightly more powerful mono 116 are highly sought after. Even if you take a total loss of $15k, which is unlikely, that is no worse than the loss taken on selling $80k Constellations or similar stuff.
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RIAA,
Very apt description of what happens when health becomes bad enough to require a nursing home, which is indeed "incarceration." I freely share medical advice just like audio advice. My field of interest is anti-aging medicine, but I am sorry to say I haven't learned much to help tinnitus or hearing loss, other than the usual warning to avoid blasting loud music.
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ricevs,
I saw your 5/3/19 post on another thread. We agree that class D offers excellent sound on an absolute basis and per dollar. GaN technology will become cheaper. For the moment, Merrill may have the most accurate sounding overall design. If that is confirmed by our listening, it offers outstanding value at the price. The $22K 116 monos may have slightly better sound than the $15K 114 stereo, but in view of the future decline of GaN prices, I favor the cheaper 114, which still has plenty of power for a sane listener. Maybe you can get a home trial of a 114 to compare with your products. Your $2K amp would be of interest to many people here. Please provide your contact info and describe the sound character of your products. Thanks.
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WC,
Yes, I have found many amps to be "moody." Big names, too. The Mark Levinson ML2 was king of the hill 40 years ago. I bought it used and it was neutral and fantastic at first. Soon it became like marshmallows coated with molasses. Same experience with the Spectral DMA50 and a Goldmund Mimesis amp of the day. But the ML2, Spectral, and Goldmund never recovered, and I got rid of them all. This is perhaps the biggest reason I will never spend big bucks on any amp, because you just never know what will happen. You can look at pictures of goddesses in their 20’s. 50 years later, some are still gorgeous, but many are like moldy fruit.
Yes, I currently notice some differences with the time of day. But sometimes it is not predictable, like a woman with irregular periods. My Shunyata Denali is probably the most useful device I have had which greatly reduces the extent of the variations in sound. Before the Denali, on some days it was not worth listening at all. I couldn't correlate the effect on sound with the line voltage, so this whole subject is a mystery to me. |
ricevs,
Thanks for your ground breaking info about Bruno Putzey's new module. Bruno gets his very low distortion figures by using lots of negative feedback. Merrill does the opposite with no negative feedback, and still manages to get fairly low 0.08% distortion. Merrill makes a good case for the high speed accompanied by naturalness which is only possible without the interfering negative feedback. I heard the Mola Mola Kaluga amp which uses Bruno's Hypex module. It is fast and neutral, although some have criticized its coolness in tone character. I have a hunch that Bruno still likes high amounts of negative feedback. So the question is, who is right about feedback? As always, the total design is important, not just which module is used. As a designer yourself, you know the importance of that, which is why you continue to tweak. |
mrdecibel,
OK, I should have said I used the pair of ML2 monos. In those days, the term, "mono amplifiers" wasn't used much. They were 25W class A into 8, doubling up to 100W into 2, and drew 400W idling, each. Each weighed 65 lbs for a mere 25W.
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So far, what are the sonic qualities of Boulder 2110 vs Gryphon Pandora preamps with Mephisto?
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WC,
I have found that any speaker on the long wall with less distance to your back wall will produce a heavier bass oriented sound than if the speaker is on the short wall projecting to a greater distance to the back wall. With the Neo especially, I suggest placing them on the short wall. You can try this in your present room. This way, the Neo will be more buoyant with greater life in the mid and HF. A disadvantage of this placement is that your screen will have to be less wide, but audio is more important than video, right? Another disadvantage is that the image will be narrower because the speakers are closer together. To me, the life and clarity outweighs the narrower image.
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ricevs,
Purifi is exciting. At first, I was disappointed to read 12.8 dB gain from the module, but this is voltage gain, so the power gain is 25.6 dB (V squared divided by R=power). I doubt this is the whole circuit, which usually has an input stage before the power stage, so that manufacturers can tailor the sound by varying the input stage. It is exciting that NAD has licensed this module. But we can expect Bruno Putzeys to develop his own complete amp with his own special tweaks. As usual, it will be priced much higher than NAD. I look forward to the reviews of Purifi and Element by Srajan of 6 moons.
WC, I have urged you not to blow your money on old fashioned expensive dinosaur amps, when SOTA technologies are coming in the near future in finished products. I would love to see a mainstream company like NAD blow away the big overpriced names of the present. Don’t blow too much money on Odin cables, since they have compromises for your tastes anyway. |
almarg,
No, I believe we agree that the power gain would be 25.6 dB for that module. Your formula shows that log(P1/P2) is 2x log(V1/V2), or P1/P2 is (V1/V2) squared. To simplify and look at it another way, suppose the voltage gain is 10 dB, or a factor of 10. Then the power gain would be 20 dB, or a factor of 100. It is often easier to think in terms of factors, and then convert to dB, which is the logarithm. Take a common 100 W amp with input sensitivity of 1V for the full 100W output. Power is V squared over R, which is 100W. At 8 ohms, V squared is 800. Take the input V of 1, and you get a V squared ratio of 800. The power gain in dB is the log of 800=29, but the voltage gain is the square root of 800 whose log is 14.5 dB. |
Almarg,
To be brief here, I think the confusion is about semantics. A dB, or 0.1Bell, is a unit of loudness. It really shouldn't be used to describe a ratio, which it is not. So when Bruno Putzeys describes the voltage output/voltage input as 12.8 dB, I really don't know what he means. Let's call it an even 13 dB. A difference of 13 dB in loudness is a factor of 20, which is 20 times more energy, which we both agree is power. So Bruno should have said that the voltage output is greater than input by a factor of the square root of 20, which is 4.472. This would fit with the use of this module as one of two amplification stages, since a typical complete power amp has a voltage increase factor of 20, and power increase factor of 400, or "26 dB" (forgive the misused and inappropriate expression). Now I think we agree. Thanks for challenging me.
Also, when a manufacturer licenses Bruno's module, it adds its own input stage, which will affect the sound roughly to the same extent as Bruno's module. So even if the module is absolutely a perfect straight wire with gain, the finished amp's sound will be determined by the manufacturer's own input circuit, which is up for grabs. If Bruno makes his own input stage with the same characteristic as his module, then that finished amp will be ready to compete with the finished products from Merrill. It will serve as a valid test of how the 2 finished products compete, in terms of their respective technologies.
ricevs,
Take note of the 2nd paragraph above. In the past, Bruno has made his smaller Hypex modules available to small manufacturers like you, while reserving the powerful Ncore 1200 for only a few companies. Let's see what you can do with his latest module and your own input stage.
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WC,
I understand your need for an isolated room that does double duty. If you accept the compromises for 2 channel stereo, that's OK. Another problem for audio is that 6 big recliners will disturb and congest the sound. When listening alone, you will sit up front and center, but then all the chairs to the side and in back of you will act as deadening absorbers. This may not be a problem if you design the rest of the room to be more live--fewer acoustic panels, carpeting, etc. Another consideration is that when several friends listen with you, they will all be out of the sweet spot for audio, like listening in a typical crowded room at a show. (Remember how Sanders had several chairs lined up centered. Perhaps 6 smaller chairs all centered would be a better setup, although your room is not big enough for that.) Your friends will concentrate more on the movie than the music.
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WC,
Also, the compromises for audio in the double duty room will outweigh the benefits of expensive Odin cables, etc. Yes, you will still hear the differences as you do now, but an uncluttered open space between you and the speakers is paramount for highest quality audio. Maybe you can make do with 2 or 3 smaller chairs lined up centered behind each other, or 1 recliner for yourself and a few small chairs brought in for guests only when they are there. This reminds me of how some audio dealers demo 1 pair of speakers at a time, with other speakers removed from the room.
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pokey77,
Agree with you. ARC of any power is still tubes whose only good point is natural midrange. Although midrange is perhaps the most important part of the freq range, many SS amps do very well in the midrange while being more accurate in the rest of the freq range. Tubes are not comfortable driving low impedance loads, which rolls off the HF in electrostatics.
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WC,
I almost bought the ATI class D amps. I was tempted by the higher power bridged versions, but ATI told me that the bridged 54 series versions are not comfortable with low impedance loads, and paradoxically the lower power 52 series versions might put out more power into low impedances. I passed on them also because I read Kal Rubinson's report in Stereophile that they were warmer than his reference amp of the time, the class D Classe sigma monos. As you know, I hate any euphonics. The same warning about bridged amps and low impedances applies to many amps. Benchmark and Bryston told me the same thing. All that said, for multichannel, ATI is one of the best affordable bets, especially for non-electrostatic speakers. As you said years ago, get a 2 channel plus 3 channel instead of a 5 channel. You can see in the ATI specs that the power goes down in too many channels on 1 chassis because of the shared power supply.
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WC,
Aside from what I said above, for your HT needs, I think the ATI amps would be a great choice, especially for the money, in this less critical situation. Somewhat more expensive, my Mytek Brooklyn Amp is a tiny chassis and probably sonically competitive with any reasonably priced class D. You can try it from Music Direct, also in your present dedicated stereo. Since you like the Classe amp 2, you will probably find the Mytek to be at least as good, which is impressive. It will challenge any amp you have ever heard for clarity and neutrality without coldness or sterility. You could get 2 of these for $5k retail for 4 channels. Very compact with great sound you would like in either dedicated stereo or HT.
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WC,
I am not familiar with many of the inwall speakers available, but a dream inwall speaker pair would be from Wisdom Audio. Several years ago I heard a tall but not the tallest Sage model. These are SOTA ribbon hybrids, narrower than even the GT Audio, but much more expensive. Being efficient you don’t need much power. And the narrow GT ribbons would also be a great choice. Near the front wall, their bass would be enhanced, so you don't need the separate woofer tower. Alternatively, for the front L/R speakers, you could use your Persona 3F near the wall. The bass will be more prominent near the wall, which you might find appropriate for dramatic movie sound effects. What other 10 speakers are you considering? Inwall is a good idea to avoid clutter which would compromise your Neo stereo in the same room. |
lemonhaze,
This makes sense. My main objection to many big reclining chairs is that the sound field is blocked so there is a compromise in clarity and openness. This is less true of the very high Neo panels and the tall Wisdom Audio ribbons.
WC,
Any way you look at it, 1 room serving double duty will significantly compromise the performance of your stereo, which you have worked so hard to achieve. In my apartment, alone, I live with the reality of not playing loud music past 11 PM. At later hours, I can still play music at 60 dB with peaks at 80 that has limited bass. Living in your house with your family, it is much the same situation. You have to decide whether having your isolation freedom in the garage will be worth the compromise in sound quality for stereo. A special consideration is the purity of sound from the Wisdom Audio Sage inwall ribbons, which most likely outperform the Neo above 300 Hz. The Wisdom would be great for HT as well as stereo. You should go hear them at an upper echelon HT Wisdom dealer. I heard them at a place called Enhanced Home, in Port Chester, NY. When I arrived at the appointment, they gave me a brochure made especially for me with various Wisdom systems and electronics. This is the kind of treatment you would get when you have a reservation in a 5 star restaurant or Swiss Alps spa for the rich oil sheiks/diplomats.
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WC,
I hope you get the Sim 860V2 back soon. Meanwhile, let's hear your comparative ratings of the Sim with the Gryphon and Merrill 118, particularly for sweetness, resolution. I understand your rating of the Sim for sweetness as a 5, which to me means that it is tonally neutral. The Luxman sweetness of 7 means it is sweeter than neutral, but not as sweet as a classic tube amp which might score a 10. A sweetness score of 1 would mean totally cold/sterile. When adding up the total score, I would convert the 5 score for sweetness to a 10, the ideal, and downgrade the overly sweet tube amp to much lower than 10, maybe 1-2.
As many have said, the sweetness category is confusing and misleading when you add up the total score. I suggest replacing "sweetness" with something like "smoothness and coherence" which everyone agrees is desirable, unlike the big differences in preferences for sweetness.
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WC,
Even though you don’t have 2 Odin powercords to compare with 2 AQ Dragon HC’s, you can learn something by using the AQ in the left channel and Odin in the right. Listen to the music from the right channel, especially from older recordings with ping pong imaging, that is, exaggerated L/R separation. You will still find that the AQ has more detail than the Odin. Another thing to do would be to listen to just 1 speaker in mono with AQ versus Odin. Do this for the left speaker and then the right. This illustrates that the $48K Odin pair is way overpriced with inferior performance compared to the AQ Dragon HC pair at $18K. Even the Vallhalla 2 didn’t produce sound good enough for you to spend that money. My experience with Frey 2 was similar. All in all, I feel that Nordost in general is overpriced and hyped at the same time. Save your money for acoustical treatments and the best 12 speakers which will have a far greater benefit. Go, AQ!
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My methodology of listening in mono as stated has been extensively tested by my experience. It doesn't matter what the brand or price. While not as informative as having 2 pairs of similar components, it is still useful for WC since the requirements of high quality HT with many speakers put him on a tight budget. Since the AQ power cords are clearly at least as good as the Odin, and even if it were a toss up trade-off, the Odin is clearly not a good use of money right now. I am being diplomatic about this. The MOST important element in any system, stereo or HT, is the quality of the speakers. Room acoustic design is close behind, as several people here say. Cables are further down the list, and especially uber-high priced things like Odin. Even flagship AQ is high priced, but if it competes with Odin, then Odin is badly overpriced. It is obvious that $48K for Odin power cords would be better spent on more critical elements of WC's top HT system. WC's findings with AQ Dragon HC suggest trials with cheaper AQ products, just as he has done with Nordost, and especially Wireworld. Go AQ again! |
psnyder149,
I thought you were developing respect for me. Classic top audio priorities are speaker and room with everything else less important. It makes no sense to spend many tens of thousands of bucks for cables with relatively mediocre HT speakers. Most music lovers on finite small or even large budgets know classic audio priorities, so this is not my unique pronouncement. Lhasaguy said it correctly above, and I gave him credit for that.
I have never personally insulted you or anyone else here, but I do defend against outrageous accusations hurled at me. Why don't you just sit back and think about what I say, or just ignore it if it is not relevant to you.
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mrdecibel,
Agree, although the whole family can enjoy highest quality stereo with a nice screen between them for highest quality audio and video. If someone wants bounce around surround sound, movie theaters do it better, but superior Neo or most other audiophile speakers compared to crappy movie theater speakers will yield a much better home audio and video experience using 2 channels.
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WC,
Sorry for my confusion about pricing. But it is clear that general prices of Odin are much higher than flagship prices for AQ. For Odin 1, you are smart to try it compared to more expensive Odin 2, which is not necessarily better. I like when more mainstream companies like AQ utilize their dominance to come out with upper echelon products like Dragon HC. Their prices for outstanding performance will be more reasonable than companies like Nordost. I think it is worthwhile to spend a lot of money for quality, as long as at that level it is a better value than other quality products. AQ fits that criterion. Also, listening in mono obviously doesn't enable comparisons of spatiality, but it does differentiate tonal quality, which is still the most important element of any music.
I agree with lhasaguy above, "if you have world class 2 channel, why not watch TV/movies and listen to the dream system, rather than hearing things blow up from behind and beside you WITH LESSER QUALITY." You could still have a large screen between 2 great speakers and have highest quality audio and video. The money you save without the HT multichannel setup could be deployed for all the top quality AQ cables (maybe even Nordost) you want, as well as top speakers like Wisdom Audio, Alsyvox. Room treatments optimized for stereo are still worthwhile with good cost/benefit.
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ron17,
I am sure there are things that you will never get. If you want to provide useful input, try to use the word "never" as little as possible. I try.
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WC,
Most informative will be A/B of the Rowland 925 with Centaur, and 925 with the 535 to see what the big price difference between the 925 gives you, or perhaps the opposite in some ways. How does the winner compare to your memories of the Block? Are all these amps well broken in? |
WC,
It should be understand that several knowledgeable and experienced people like me, mrdecibel are not shoving our ideas down anyone's throat. However, strongly held views about what is practical and cost effective from a total system perspective can be useful to many people here, unlike biased wishy washy poetry coming from magazines. The strongly held views do not rise to the level of "my way or the highway." Although I have not personally heard an A/B between AQ and Odin power cords, my comments often rely on your reports of your observations, which I know are as careful as if I were there with you, and are therefore informative enough for me to comment on. Of course, my better comments are about things I have personally heard at home.
I hope you excuse my sounding off on uber expensive items, but this relates to several bad experiences I had when I was your age and didn't have much money to spend. In particular, the Mark Levinson ML6a was perhaps the most expensive preamp of the early 1980's at $6500, highly touted of course. I listened at a seller's home and thought I got a steal at half price, $3200. At home, it was a DOG, the worst syrupy thick molasses dull sound I ever heard. No, not a system mismatch or anything like that, just a hyped up piece of garbage. That's where I am coming from, to try to help you avoid financial catastrophe and offer heartfelt advice. You can ignore advice from me or anyone else. Sure it is your money so you're the boss, but in return for your freely given advice to others, I think you can welcome advice to you. None of it is commandments to do this or that.
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psnyder149,
I acknowledge your points, but disagree about your concept of rudeness. Rudeness is about personally insulting others, not about equipment. Anyone is entitled to say that some equipment is too expensive or bad sounding, but that is only their assessment of an inanimate object, not an insult. In contrast, if I said "why are you, Paul listening to this piece of garbage," that would be rude. And about my methodology of evaluation, it is understood that if I say to someone, "do this," that amounts to the same thing and is not condescension at all. Many people here do the same thing with their advice, but I don't jump all over them just because I don't do it their way, for example with room correction software or subwoofers that don't interest me.
I heard MIT speaker cables at home many years ago, and they were badly veiled, so you made a good move into Nordost. I like my Frey 2 RCA interconnect, but found the more expensive Tyr too warm for my taste. Now, if you happen to be listening to Tyr and you like it but I don't, that is not being rude to you. |
WC,
For the 1st time, I looked at all your pictures. I really like your present room with the shag carpet balancing out the live tiles on the floor. You might have tried thinner carpets. The leather chairs are nice, better than plush upholstery which softens the sound too much. I am not an acoustics expert, but simple can be nice the way you have it.
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WC,
My guess is that as an amp with great clarity in midrange and HF, the 925 has accurate tight bass as well, although less oomph. To get a better memory of the Block, I suggest not yet changing the jumper on the Neo to get more bass. Listen to more music to confirm your early impressions. Of course, later you can do the jumper change and A/B the Centaur with the 925 that way. You will probably come to similar conclusions about the sonic differences between the Centaur and 925. If you have confirmed that the AQ dragon HC is the most accurate of your power cords, that will help make the differences between the 2 amps more evident. I predict the 925 is the winner for clarity/information retrieval/ neutrality at all freq, just as you found years ago in other systems.
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Oops, sorry for my mistake. The Corus is a line stage. The same reasoning applies to my remarks above, although the Corus might not be much better than the Virgo, if at all. But Guido raves about his Rowland dac with a big difference from the upgraded power supply, so I was referring to that above.
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WC,
Ricred1 raised an interesting question about the bass on the 925. If it has less quantity than expected, is it because of some tube-like qualities of being rolled off like ARC 160, or accurate SS tightness with less oomph, or just lack of break in as Guido and astewart8944 mentioned? Time will tell.
Don't forget to A/B the 535 with 925 because it seems that 925 may be the absolute winner. It would be interesting to see if the 535 has some better points than the 925, or whether the 925 is better for all sonic qualities. How much better for the huge difference in price? If the Rowland Corus with the power supply is much better than the Lampi, perhaps the difference in price between the 925 pair and a single 535 makes putting the savings into the Corus dac worth it. Put another way, a single 535 + Virgo (I think the Corus requires a preamp) + Corus dac may produce better sound than 925 + Lampi. A bridged 535 pair + Virgo + Corus might be awesome. Of course, if you have the money, the ultimate might be 925 + Virgo + Corus. The quality of the source is often more important than anything else except the speaker, although Linn made its reputation by claiming its turntable was more important than even the speaker.
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WC,
Thanks to Guido's info, the ultimate might be an all Rowland system--dac, preamp, power amp with the enhancement of the PSU for the first two items.
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WC,
Exciting news about the DCS Vivaldi. Using the 925 at 32 dB gain should enable you to be satisfied with volume by eliminating the Virgo preamp and running the dac with its volume control into the 925. Doing the same with the Lampi and its volume control enables elimination of the Virgo. Eliminating the Virgo will likely give more transparency/clarity for both the Vivaldi and Lampi, so then the battle will be the DCS vs Lampi in the most revealing way.
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WC,
Eliminating the Virgo will more clearly reveal the differences between the DCS and Lampi. Also, if something sounds more "beautiful" that is usually associated with loss of information/clarity. As I recall, several reviewers and maybe you found the 300B tube to be more revealing and neutral than other tubes which are more romantic and beautiful. Does the DCS reveal more info than the Lampi with 300B tubes? Same question for the 925 vs Centaur.
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On the Lampi site, there is a review article of Feb 8, 2019 about tubes in the Pacific, also posted here by grey9hound. The stock tube is the KR 300B which the reviewer found to have the fastest, most neutral sound. I remember that WC was last using other tubes in the Pacific, which the reviewer said were more romantic in sound. Since he got the latest balanced version of the Lampi, I don't know what tubes are being used there.
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