2. amps-preamps
  3. 126624-10101

My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:

Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005

With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:

ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)

NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)

Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)

rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)

cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)

parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)

lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)

McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.

butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)

pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.

classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)

Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:



PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.

Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.

Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?

Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.

 It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.

Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.

Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.

Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.

Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.

Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.

My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.

That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!


128x128jays_audio_lab

Showing 50 responses by kren0006

kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Perfect! Viber, Ricevs, anyone else talking about giant killers (those coda guys or new class d guys (AGD is it?) - send your stuff in) - Jay is paying the shipping for you to send your stuff to him. Let’s see if they really are giant killers.
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Viber you’re wrong because WC will PLAY your giant killers on his channel, at least that’s how I understand what he is offering (correct if that not so, WC).

So who cares if WC doesn’t like it, or even if he says that, but everyone can listen for themselves to see how the giant killers compare in the same room with the same equipment, and if they are really better like you’ve long contended, I’m sure that will be obvious to many and they’ll say so.

What is not to like, unless the so-called giant killers are actually nothing of the sort?

You and ricevs are making excuses, as I suspected you would, and unfortunately that reflects poorly on credibility.
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Where, oh where, are the giant killers?

Bryston?
Rane?
Mytek?
AHB2?
Coda?
AGD?
Rogue?
zip cord?

WC will pay the shipping for you to send your giant killers to him for audition against the big boys! This is the chance you’ve all been waiting for! Send them in!

Let’s see if they do any better than Tekton did.......

I am not presupposing any of them will fall flat on their face. But let’s see it, send them in

kren0006
1,859 posts
 
I think a lot of the giant killer pushers like Viber have probably never heard a state of the art system, and perhaps are afraid to lest it burst their bubble of giant killer nonsense (Rane/Bryson/Mytek/zip/etc/).

That is being proven by their run and hide reaction to Jay’s challenge. Either that, or they know their crazy boasts “better than 90% of stuff on WC channel”, “boat anchors”, are just garbage. The light is shining on them and exposing that they have no clothes. If that’s not right, then send the giant killers in and prove me wrong.

If he has heard SoTA systems and still thinks his gear that he brags about all the time here sounds better than WC’s, well then draw your own conclusions about his ability to assess audio. 

Send them in. Let’s hear how they sound on WC’s channel with his SoTA gear. Don’t be afraid. WC paying shipping both ways.
Maybe they really are that good? But let’s hear them, come on
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Ugh, tone deaf. You might have to be less polite, WC
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
True rh. Dave created the juggernaut no doubt 
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Yeah I’m serious I’ve said it before but Wilson Audio is better with Darryl at the helm. This in response to the interview and the recent speaker incarnations, not to the previous post.
I mean no disrespect to DAW, just think the company on a better path


and ps it wasn’t me who complained to WC. I just post my thoughts on that here
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
I think it will. Better not sell it. ;)
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Yep Vibers guess of block audio much more likely given WC’s buddy a new block dealer
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Regarding the Audio Research Ref 160S discussed just now, if you search WC’s videos you will find the video where he included it with Luxman 900u (or whatever it is called) and one other (I forget the third - perhaps SimAudio) as the three best power amps under $20k that he had owned to that point. I want to say the video was from about 6 months ago.
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Put that new tube amp into tier 1 and kick Dagostino into middle tier where it belongs. No "Honorable Mentions" - that’s wimping out!!
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
No because you haven’t shown an amp in 3 months - let’s get on with it.  Nobody has anything but guesses at this point about what you have
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
“You barking orders?”

Nope, just answering your question as to why nobody noticed you were keeping amps longer.

How could anyone notice when you haven’t even shown us what you’ve had? For all we know there could have been ten rounds of turnover since you last showed an amp. Add to that your statements that you been testing amps in private behind the scenes.

So do whatever, but don’t expect people to know you’ve held amps longer when everything is behind a curtain. 

I’m not complaining too much, well a little, but yeah feels like a long wait. That’s all
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
But all that said, the rankings that you’re doing now are awesome. Much appreciated any time you compare things you’ve had. 

That’s not related to my minor suggestion that you get on with the reveal. ; )
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
“That said, it seems that you all want to see eye candy instead?”


I’d say it’s more that it is kinda impossible to learn anything of use if we don’t know what’s playing, and frankly I (speaking just for myself) don’t have much interest  in listening to a setup that is blind.  If I devote 15 minutes of my time to watching a video i want to know what’s playing, otherwise I’ll probably just skip it and not bother. Personal preference. Maybe some people like it, dunno. 

What I care about is hearing new stuff and comparing against previous stuff. I used to get into the guessing predicting game but kinda fell off that horse too
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Awesome that you are trying such a hi end tube amp. It sounds like sonically VAC has already made your podium of best amps you’ve ever had, along with Boulder and Gryphon…..but what place will VAC end up - gold, silver or bronze????
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
It is also very informative that the relatively inexpensive Audio Research Ref 6se preamp has beaten the much more expensive Soulution 725 according to your last spontaneous post after just switching from Soulution (“WOW WOW WOW”)

I predict that Viber will have a hard time dealing with that.


it is pretty rare that WC has that kind of demonstrative reaction to a component switch (Wow x3, don’t think I’ll go to bed tonight).
I can only surmise that ARC destroyed Soulution at a fraction of cost.  And to think that is only ARC’s mid-tier preamp 
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
“NOT ONE.”

They all ran and hid. 

How long will it be before the giant killer pushers start boasting again though?  Well I guess we can always refer them back to page 349 and cite their lack of game
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Hate to keep correcting you Viber, but you’re wrong again.
You said: “ It is clear that Jay’s top criterion is sweet, romantic sound, with enough detail to please him. “

That’s not clear at all. WC never said anything like that. WC never said that ARC gave up anything in clarity to Soulution, only that it apparently sounded much better (“feel like ditching all SS gear”). That’s your assumption that ARC has less clarity with VAC because that’s what you want to be true.

It’s possible that the ARC preamp with VAC has nearly equal, equal, or more clarity than the Soulution. We don’t know because WC has not said one way or the other.


But even if it doesn’t:What WC absolutely has said is that the ARC preamp with VAC is so amazing he feels like selling all of his solid state gear. So even if the ARC provides slightly less clarity, even still according to WC it is so much better than the (under your assumption of Soulution having better clarity) preamp that in WC’s expert opinion clarity easily overcome by other MORE IMPORTANT sonic factors (otherwise he’d never reach point of saying ARC/VAC so much better he wants to just sell all the SS).

Anyway, let’s let WC tell us. Which setup had more pleasing clarity - ARC/VAC or Soulution/VAC.
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Well ARC have 3 current production preamp models: the Ref10 retails for $30k, the Ref6se for $17k, and the Ls28se for $10k.

So the Ref 6se is unquestionably their mid-tier preamp in cost in at least two ways. It’s the second of three, and retails for just over half of the top model.

As far as Sonics, it’s a much more recent model than Ref 10, so if it beats the Ref 10 in certain areas that’s certainly possible. (Sonics, unlike price, being subjective, of course).

But as you say, it is very likely that very soon they will come out with a new flagship that will both be much more expensive than Ref 6se and will likely sound much better.
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Viber, WC has already said the Audio Research Ref6se was much better than the Soulution. Pay attention (“I feel like selling all my SS gear” immediately after inserting the ARC, remember?). And it’s probably 1/3 the price.


This is what I meant when I predicted that you’d have a hard time dealing with WC’s findings
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Oh no, Viber, you are wrong again. You not only misinterpret WC’s remarks, you try to create an alternative reality that fits your warped sonic views by misstating what WC said.

Specifically, you try to cast WC’s clear findings regarding Soulution and Audio Research in what you perceive as a negative light by saying WC prefers warm tube sound. First, WC never said anything like that - which I’m now repeatedly explaining to you for the second time. Second, have you been reading this thread for the last 5 years? No really, have you? If there is one type of sound WC unquestionably DOES NOT PREFER, I can guarantee that it is warm tube sound. So your direct statement above "his emotional love affair with warm tube sound" is simply nonsensical. Do you understand why?

WC has made his findings clear, but you cannot accept them. I never said he is the authority, only that you would have difficulty accepting his findings, which you have now proven a couple of times.
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
So I think this is WC’s upgraded list (if I missed any, someone will add).

[NOTE: List is Solid State amps exclusively, tube amps excluded from rankings per WC]

TOP GROUP
Boulder (new Boulder)
Gryphon
Block Audio (Mike’s choice)
Soulution
Constellation
Dan D’Agostino (Momentum series) **** Honorable mention

MIDDLE GROUP
Simaudio
Jeff Rowland
Merrill Audio
Pass Labs
Luxman (WC said top member of this group - could bump into TOP group)
Bel Canto Black
Ayre
Classe

LOWER GROUP
Bryston
NAD
(he hasn’t gotten to lower group yet but these are the two he always mentions so not assuming too much that they’ll be here, haha)
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Oh yeah I forgot that he also said that about Merrill in video 1. Maybe whoever updates the list just deletes my note about Luxman unless WC wants to clarify which is the top of group 2.


The funny thing about it is we see these videos 2-3 days apart so I missed that contradiction, but WC is doing it all in a single within 30 minutes, so come on WC, let's get some clarity here - which is better, Merrill or Luxman??

haha, just kidding, appreciate the info and list.

My prediction for bottom group:
Bryston
NAD
Parasound
PS Audio
McIntosh
Krell
Rotel
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Updated:

[NOTE: List is Solid State amps exclusively, tube amps excluded from rankings per WC]
[In no particular order within group]

TOP GROUP
Boulder (new Boulder)
Gryphon
Block Audio (Mike’s choice)
Soulution
Constellation
Dan D’Agostino (Momentum series) **** Honorable mention

MIDDLE GROUP
Simaudio
Jeff Rowland
Merrill Audio (top performer in middle group)
Pass Labs
Luxman
Bel Canto Black
Ayre
Classe
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Blaming the speakers would be disingenuous because the better the speaker (and you’ve indicated Alexandria the best you’ve had basically) the more clearly the differences between superb and mediocre electronics will be shown. 

On a comparatively crap set of speakers sure a bunch of amps may sound similar, maybe even some of the cheapies. But on Alexandria??  Haha, bring it on boys. Let’s hear what ya got. Alexandria will take no prisoners. 
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Speaking for only myself, I really don’t care which so-called giant killers get sent to WC either. But I am very interested to see how they compare.

I’ll be honest. I think they will all get destroyed.

When Viber brags endlessly about how his little Bryston or Mytek or Rane or zip cord or whatever sounds better than 90% of WC’s stuff I equate it to a senile old man sitting on a park bench arguing with himself about whether or not the earth is flat. Why? Because I’ve done head to head comparisons of that level gear (Bryston/Rega/Atoll/NAD/Rotel vs Luxman or ARC or Bel Canto Black or ….) and I found it to be a blowout on a resolving system (Wilson Alexx or Sasha DAW or even Magnepan 20.7 level speakers, Chord Dave level dac). Very easy to hear the quality difference. But if you’ve never done such comparisons head to head in same room, you may not know.

Viber and ricevs are the only two who come to mind as giant killer “pushers”, meaning they claim their budget systems are as good or better than what WC shows. Others occasionally mention that they like budget gear but don’t claim it better than WC level stuff or drone on about it endlessly, which is totally fine and appropriate.

I just think any of these budget components will get slaughtered in a head to head with the Boulders, Audio Research, Gryphon, VAC, etc that WC has.

BUT, those are only my personal views and I also would love to be proven wrong.

So send in whatever you have that you think is a giant killer. Worst that will happen is that it will be proven not to be. But think of the glory you’d have bestowed on you if it really was a giant killer.
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
McIntosh first out of the gate in Bottom Tier.  Love it!  So overrated. (well not in this thread, but in general - I always say for the cost of pretty much any Mc component I can find something I like a lot more for a lot less money).


Side track:  yy - have you heard the Yamaha NS5000 speakers?  I think I've seen you talk about them before.  If so, how would you describe their house sound?  Do they sound comparable or similar to any other speakers that you've demo'd/owned?  Kinda curious about them - I like the old school monitor-on-stand look that is also kinda modern looking at same time.  Aren't they like $15k though?  Seems like a lot for a company not really known to play in those waters.  I haven't been able to find anywhere that has them to listen to.
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Agree Carey all very subjective. Some might like the (IMO) super warm sound of McIntosh. I don’t. Sounds boring to me.

Yesterday I did a head to head demo of Luxman L509X integrated ($9.5klist) vs ARC separates LS28 and VT80 ( not sure if they were SE models or not) combined list $20k. Playing on Wilson SabrinaX speakers via a Chord Dac (whatever the one right below Dave is).

I actually preferred the Luxman. More dynamic, if not quite as big sound stage. Just seemed like a more exciting presentation to me. And normally I love ARC, but I also like Luxman. But I was a bit surprised at these results for me.

thx for synopsis yy. I like reading your comparisons 
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
I stand corrected as to ricevs. I guess I attributed the oft repeated “boat anchors” comment to suggesting such amps weren’t very good.  Seems like a reasonable leap to make but he’s probably correct if he says he never indicated his stuff better than WC’s, so my bad for lumping him in with Viber who has often said that. I should be more accurate 
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Good job Viber
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
I think it's great.  It is possible to get very good sound for budget $$ in this hobby if know what doing.  Always possible to get much better, or course, but you really have to pay for it.  Will be cool to see what a cheapy amp sounds like in same system as WC's uber stuff.
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
“Can it be better than McIntosh in that bottom tier?”

Probably!!


”Can it possibly get up to middle tier and take down Pass Labs?”

Doubtful.  But that’s just a wild guess. I’ve never heard this brand (unlike Bryston and Mytek which I have).  I bet there are lots of cheapies than can beat lots of the lower tier entries 
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Well let’s not go overboard ; )
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
For me anyway much more interesting than any of this romper room stuff (tongue-in-cheek, relax guys) will be WC actually lifting the curtain on the SS monos and getting some additional screen time for that and the awesome VAC tube amp and ARC preamp. That set of gear with comparison opportunity SS to Tube has the potential to be the best ever gear he’s had in a shootout and we need to see a lot more of that.

This budget stuff is okay but keep it real
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
I know Dave I'm kinda joking around but just trying to keep WC moving forward with the reveals of the big stuff, kinda impatient that way I guess.
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Wow sounds like your system is reaching heights never even previously contemplated.  Transparent and Wilson = Happy WC
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Didn’t you have Transparent also with Alexx or Alexia 2? Lower series maybe?



For all the Wilson Audio haters, WC's purchase of over $50k msrp Transparent cabling tuned specifically for his XLF is probably not what you wanted to hear.  As if WC's uncontrolled glee with his Alexandria and VAC and Audio Research alone weren't enough to suspect these speakers might be sticking around for a long time.  Although I suppose all it takes is someone to make him a good offer and they'd be gone, haha
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
I'd almost say just let Viber pick whatever he thinks will give his amp the best chance.  But he only gets to pick once - agree with you there WC.  One shootout is enough - choose your favored combination
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Dac direct only for non-serious musings.  Everyone knows top preamps will make everything sound better.  You conclusively proved that many moons ago and stated as such many times here and on your videos.  Why even debating this?  You got preamps that are top notch, pick one.

Since we have no idea what your preamp is because you won't tell us, it's pretty impossible for us to make a recommendation.  Only you know what cards you are holding
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
I wouldn’t sweat it. WC has also asked certain posters on this thread who were trashing his reviews or gear to leave. I didn’t blame him for doing that, those posters were crapping all over the thread.

Not surprising that WC wouldn’t exactly be welcome there given his assessment of those footers if they play a big role with on that site.

Just move on and keep doing what you’re doing. Don’t make it personal or you sink to that level
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Hey, what happened to the second video of bottom tier amps? I think the first one was released about two weeks ago. Too risky?
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
WC, you are the only one who can compare what you hear in the room to what we hear on the YT videos (because you can watch the videos on YT as well).

I realize for the success of your channel you have an incentive to pump up YT, or at least to not knock YT, but could you give a candid assessment of to what degree the YT videos track what you actually hear in the room?

I haven’t had a chance to listen carefully yet but I will. Two teenagers means life generally a blur right now .....
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Viber, if the Rouge is #2 I’ll be shocked and mighty impressed. I agree with you that whichever it is, it is a solid amp. I’m glad you sent it in.


As an aside since I kinda poo-poo'd the choices, my favorite evaluation piece that WC has used often in the past is Beck's "Space for the Papa."  That has everything you want.  No complaints though - great shootout WC
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
I listened to all three videos straight through, one after another.

I don’t think this is that close. It is easier than the DAC shootout.

I agree with WC’s description that one amp sounds like a DIY kit and one a refined, finished product.

I’ll note that I think WC’s music selection made this closer than it needed to be. None of the three music selections were very dynamic or complicated. They were all pretty simple, not much happening at any given time. Not a criticism, just an observation. On music like that, it is easier for an inferior product to keep up.

I don’t know whether WC kept the same amp as #1 and #2 each time but I think he did. I’ll assume he did.

For me amp #2 wins easily. Better all around in every way.

Why?

First, amp #1 has a much higher noise floor than does amp #2, and for that reason amp #2 sounds much more refined.

Second, while amp #1 sounds fine when things are simple (which as mentioned above is most of the time in these recordings), when things get more involved, it begins to fall apart. As one example, take the piano chords near the end of Private Investigations (video 2). Amp #2 sounds much more realistic as to how a real piano sounds versus amp #1. Most know that getting the piano to sound realistic is one of the most difficult things to do in audio reproduction. With single piano key notes, harder to distinguish, but get a succession of chords, and it becomes clear. So for me that tends to be a nice gauge of quality. No comparison in that regard for me between the two amps.

I could go on but suffice to say that amp 2 just sounds more authentic. Amp 1 sounds more contrived. I concur with the poster above who was adamant that 2 was better and many of the reasons he/she gave.

Goes without saying that this all through YouTube and probably we are getting 20% of the real thing this way, so I defer to WC’s take on actually being in the room. If he tells us that amp 1 blew away amp 2 in the room then I will have lost all respect for YT’s ability to convey what actually happening (whatever respect I have today that is).

I’ll close with a medical analogy. Amp #1 is Target Minute Clinic. Amp #2 is a full trauma hospital. If you have simplistic listening needs, or just have a scratchy throat and need a strep test, get amp #1 or go to Target Minute Clinic. You’ll be happier, it’ll be quicker, and cost less, and you’ll get the strep test and a prescription or the simple sonic presentation you will be happy with.

On the other hand, if you’re a more sophisticated listener with a broad palette of sonic requirements, or to switch to the medical side if you have medical needs beyond the trivial sore throat (maybe you have the onset of throat cancer where early diagnosis could be life saving), go to the hospital or associated clinic -> better odds of being satisfied with the sonic presentation or getting the life-saving intervention you need.

There you go, easy. Haha

Edit: I reread and realized I forgot to say that amp 1, if it is the Rouge, sounds amazing for a $1700 amp, and it sounds pretty good regardless of price. If amp #1 is the megabuck amp, then I know for sure I would never get that amp, haha. If amp #2 is the Rouge, then it is a YouTube star.  Thanks to Viber for sending his amp and to WC for the shootout.
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
I don’t know which is which. Don’t really care. I know over YT I liked #2 much more. I am almost hoping the cheapie is #2. That would be a hoot. But I’m willing to admit that if WC says #1 is entirely better in room and it is the more expensive one, that my assessment over YT is worthless. Same if WC says Rouge is #1 and entirely better in room.


I’m actually more just hoping that WC says #2 was clearly better in room, whichever one it is. At least then I’ll know that I can trust for myself what I am hearing in his vids when I listen through my listening setup at work for YT. If it isn’t, then I guess for me this is just mindless entertainment, which is still okay I guess.

If he mixed up the order between videos then I really won't know what to think, but I guess I'd have to go back when I have more time and listen again to try to make sense of it.  I knew this morning I had a short window so I just had to blast through them, only replaying a select couple portions a second time or so
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
So were they Block Audio or Gryphon Mephisto Solo?

I predicted about 4 months ago they were Mephisto Solo but I think Viber's prediction of Block might be right as of now.

The only reason I still think they could possibly be Solo is you made comment comparing the stereo to solo as if you'd owned both.  So I could still see it
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Yeah what he said ^^^
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Cool, WC saying on the video exactly what I said about the class D falling apart on the complicated portions of the music. Dude you read my review!
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
I’m with psnyder - the exercise was fun for what it was but it was a landslide win according to WC which was more evident than on YT so let’s move back to the big boy stuff.

Tekton had it’s 15 minutes.
Viber’s amp had it’s 15 minutes.

Now back to regular programming.  There are dozens of other YT channels that review that lower level of gear, no disrespect as Viber's amp put up a good showing.
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