UPDATE: So i wanted to throw this curve ball at you all. I decided to use the black system's DAC/PREAMP as a dac and feed it via CHEAP CHEAP rca interconnects and went into INPUT 1 on the ref 10. I then connected the lumin S1 via expensive wireworld gold eclipse 7 XLR cables into INPUT 2. I proceeded to open the belcanto app and cued up a song and then opened up the lumin app and cued up the same exact song. I proceeded to match volume levels on both sources so that the ref 10 sounds exactly at the same volume level on both inputs.
I pushed play on both songs for both sources and i began to listen. I switched between input 1 (belcanto is connected to it) and input 2 (lumin s1) and went back and forth repeatedly and listened to the same exact song. Well guys, i did not hear a damn thing different. The SAME EXACT sound, detail. soundstage, etc. There was NOT a single thing better between both. My takeaway? the black system's amplifiers have the expensive dacs inside them and the preamp/dac has a simple dac so you can use it as a preamp. Upon doing my research, yep i was correct. The black system's expensive dacs reside inside the amplifier's chassis.
Anyhow, i began to listen to the ref10/simaudio combo at some pretty serious levels and then switched to the black system and here are 2 things that stood out to me:
1. the ref10/simaudio has a huge soundstage that can come extremely close to the black system's, but the song has to be recorded this way.
2. The black system's presentation is far superior to the ref10/simaudio with poor recordings and/or material.
One thing i wanted to mention to you guys that aren't too familiar with the black system is that the black system is 100% digital. It does not use xlr or rca connections between its dac/preamp and the amps. It uses ST FIBER OPTIC cables so the entire signal from the preamp/dac to the amps stays in the digital domain. |
Well, I am now looking into bringing a Jeff Rowland 625 s2 power amp. I’m also in talks and negotiating a gryphon colliseum. |
Thanks Orpheus. I appreciate you following my thread and reading it daily. I love the Sasha 2s more and more each day. I almost bought the alexias last week but I’m so impressed with these that I don’t even want to move out of them. |
Excellent guys. I am hoping the rest of you are following and if it is something that you are concerned with too much heat because it's in a rack then buy a fan from Amazon. There are super quiet fans that you can place on top of the amp to suck the heat out. Don't let that be an excuse. |
i am contemplating the bat vk655se as well.
Guys, you are going to call me nuts with what i am about to say, but today i went and bought a router (asus ac1900) to replace my apple router and i used a better ethernet cable than what i was using between the router and black system. I don't know what is going going back i am hearing more bass and fullness in the music? i thought i had the bass turned up in the system and nope it is flat at 0.... how the hell is this possible? i am very well aware of how my system sounds and can pick up changes rather easy.
Next amps to potentially go out of my stable:
350.8
i am planning to bring in the rowland s2 and the gryphon colosseum rather than the diablo 300 integrated. I want to keep trying amps with my ref10. |
i want to ask you all, and obviously this is hard for you all to probably give an opinion on because you have only heard the amps through Youtube, BUT what would you do if you had to make decision with the 3 amps i have on hand? Do you settle for endless musicality even though you aren't getting a spoon full of what is on the platter for you or do you go after the spoon-full even if it means you get full faster? |
Sashas are in many ways the most comfortable speaker to live with.
At first before i owned them i used to be the biggest critic due to their awkward appearance, but now that i have lived with them for a few weeks, they have grown on me. i want to try Alexias, but i can wait until they drop in price even more. Once they are at a good price point then i will probably make the move if i can convince myself.
On another note, i am so impressed by the black system. I don't even feel like i need to crank up things at all. I love not having to wait for a few hours before it sounds its best. i really feel like it is going to be tough to let go of this thing. It is intoxicating in so many ways guys. I am just like in love with the entire performance of it as a whole. Sure, sometimes i think about just continuing with my analog stuff and sell the black system, but i just can't see a reason WHY do that. It does everything anyone could ever wish. i can't lie, i am starting to love the wilson/black system combo. |
Tell him to get ready for the time of this life... I will keep my ref10 and will begin another amp journey to see if I can come close to the black system. This will be an interesting journey again. Will I ever come close to the black systems performance ?
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Wilson has the wamm with subs because they are always in huge rooms... And because as I have mentioned many many times, wilson is very VERY room dependent. More so than other speakers that I know. The bass is a hit or miss. If it’s a miss then you need subs...
5 pairs of wilson speakers so far and I am more than convinced that this is why they do subs with the big boys.
I heard the chronosonic locally and it had no bass and guess what? Neither did my Alex in that same room... |
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hahaha i like that mike paul..... However, WHAT IF i used this 30k preamp with cheaper amp alternatives? ever wondered what would happen? |
hi guys,
the simaudio is still here and has been on for 2 weeks. The black system is always on since there is no way to shut it off other than going to the back and flipping the switch.
The simaudio is a great amp and it does so much right. That said, tomorrow i am picking up my second hegel h30 and will run them in mono block configuration tomorrow night. I want to see if 1100 watts of power per channel will do something to the character of the speaker at low to moderate volume. In addition to that hegel, i have been hearing alot of noise about a certain amp from a reputable brand that is supposed to be exquisite and amazing. It is not a powerful amp, but the report i am getting from others is that it will be a keeper. I ordered it today and the only hint i will give you is that it retails just under 5k and that it is solid state. :) |
So i have been listening to MQA files through the black system for the past hour or so and i have had the pass labs and ref10 turned on the entire time so they can get warm. I was going through multiple mqa files so i proceeded to play the ref10/pass 350.8 at the same volume as the black system and guys at low volume it is pretty much impossible to best the black system. i mean the music keeps pouring out of the speakers with clarity and that can not be said about my other set up. It sounds good only if i crank it up to like 90db+ then it begins to shine.
i even tried the simaudio and no guys it is still a loss for my solid state pieces. That said, i am prepared to make the following statement:
IN A LOW VOLUME ENVIRONMENT (<90 DB) THERE IS NOTHING BETTER THAN THE BLACK SYSTEM. I don’t seem to recall anything come remotely close to it when doing low level listening. I can say with confidence that not even my former class a amps from the past gave me this level of detail at low volumes. If you live in a small place where neighbors are a pain or perhaps you just don’t want to have to crank things up in order to enjoy your music then this is the system for you. GAME OVER. I have already done the work for you. |
Anything below 90db, the black system is the best I’ve ever heard. Most amps fall apart or lose their magic at low listening volumes and the black system remains clean and clear. |
I am going to going to repeat myself and say luxman kills anything pass labs makes with the exception of the big amps from pass labs such as 200.8, xs series. I would never buy ANYTHING pass labs over luxman unless it's one of the amp mentioned above. Luxman, constelation and momentum m400s are the closest to tubes that I've owned. |
Hi guys,
a couple of things here regarding my previous comment about low volume:
1. <90 dB for me is considered moderate to low volume
2. I stated what I felt is my perception of the black system anywhere below that volume level
3. I used my iPhone to have a ballpark idea of how loud I am listening to
4. I stated in another post that I am using the lumin s1 as my source for the ref10
5. I connected both the black systems dac and lumin s1 And listened to both through my ref 10 at exactly the same volume and there’s zero difference in sound which indicates that the monoblocks of the black system have dacs because they receive their signal via optical cables which further improves the sound of the black system
That said, loudness is subjective. What maybe be loud for you maybe not be loud for me or anyone else. When I said <90db, that is low to low-moderate to me. If what is considered low volume is <=80db then I’d buy headphones if I listened at that level all the time. For me it makes no sense to have a system and listen to it at <80db. That’s crazy and a waste of money. You’re better off with high quality headphones. |
Update:
i just brought the 2nd hegel h30 home and set them up quickly in mono mode. My fingers itched to push play so i proceeded to play one song and holy sh@iT is all i can say right now.... My preliminary feeling so far is OUTSTANDING, but again this is just the beginning. We shall see later tonight. Stay tuned.. i suspect that it will now be a dog fight between the black system and the ref10/hegelh30s in mono mode. |
Chazzy, headphones are what the doctor prescribed for you. :) |
Horns are my next journey :). i am looking into some klipsch palladium p39f :) so don't worry , those are in my bucket list. For now, i want everyone's help with the following:
A pair of mono blocks or stereo amps that can be used as monos and that can put out over 900 watts per channel with a used market value of less than 12k dollars. The only one that comes to mind are the bryston 28bsst2 and 28bsst3s. |
sounds good guys. I think BAT is going to have to make an introduction in my home. It is time i give that brand a try, but i need to be really careful with it because it is not easy to sell. This is why i have held back with Rowland as well. Not easy to sell once you are done with it. |
i can't comment on the bat vs luxman because i have not owned bat amps, but they are on my list for sure. I want to say that the luxman 900u is special , but so is the luxman preamp. I feel like anyone buying the luxman 900u amp needs to buy the 900u preamp. They have so much synergy together.. |
Ok guys, i did a little more listening just now and i have been playing the hegels for about 90 min now. They should be good in terms of sound. i listened to a few mqa files and then went back to the black system. I immediately dialed it in to be about the same loudness which is 88db more or less and i find the black system a bit smoother with a huge soundstage width. That said, here is what i am slowly realizing which i had not really put it into words before:
The ref10 with hegel monos sounds really amazing, but the black system outshines. However, it feels as if the black systems gives you SO MUCH OF EVERYTHING AT ONCE that you end up getting overloaded with so much information and then you end up getting fatigued, but not of harshness or brightness. NOT AT ALL. It is more of the massive amount of detail and soundstage that just makes your ears want to hear less and less of it. Think of it like this: You have a beer that is smooth and keeps you buzzed pretty nicely as long as you pace yourself with it. You can drink it for hours and your buzz is perfect without any feeing of sleepiness or tiredness,etc. You feel social and wanting to talk and have a fun time with it. Then next week you drink a different beer that is stronger and tastes so yummy and you just want to chug it and quench your thirst with it because the flavor is wow. Then it hits you hard, you now have your buzz, but you are starting to get tired, sleepy, wanting to go to bed and crash... That is how you feel with the black system. It hits you so hard and so good but it has a side effect which is that it knocks you out after a while. Does this make sense?
You are pretty much having to choose what you want. Do you want the best 30-60 minutes you have ever heard? then the black system is your ticket. Do you want long hours of good listening, but not as pure as the 30-60 minutes above? then the ref10/hegel is your ticket. This is pretty much what i am realizing that too much of a good thing such as the belcanto black is also not good.
With this said, i found out from the person who i bought the sashas from that he switched the resistors in order to give them a midrange gain so i need to put back the resistors that will bring the mids back and make them less forward and then see what happens. Like i said, i still have alot more i want to do to the wilsons such was playing with the resistors, getting transparent cabling which is what was recommended to me and play with the toe in. |
Well guys, i just changed a couple of resistors on the wilsons and put back the stock values which flatten the mids. i thought they were a tad shouty, but i found out it was because the previous owner had changed the resistors with the ones that boost up the mids by 1db. That said, as i seat here listening RIGHT NOW, RIGHT THIS SECOND AT 83 DB, i could be totally happy keeping the black system and selling everything else i own, but as you all know tomorrow i will try to give the hegels a shot again and see what happens. |
Mrdecibel, my wife would I agree with you that I can’t relax lol. However, she’s worse than I am !
anyhow, there are so many factors that can contribute to the black systems outstanding synergy and presentation. It’s really amazing in many ways to the point that I’m afraid of letting go of it and never hear anything like it again. See, the cool thing is that there’s no need to turn it on before and wait 90 min for it to sound best. It’s always ready to sound amazing and without any hiccups or issues. Zero maintenance of any kind and I can’t think of any speaker that won’t benefit from it’s huge presentation. I heard it with my platinums and it was like wow and I still feel the same way with my Wilsons. |
Yes that’s right. The black system has all those attributes and contains even more. Of course, I’m not going to lie to anyone. I am indeed trying to see if I can top it by using my ref10 with different amps. So far I’ve been unable to do so.
I will be getting the pass labs xa25 in about 3-4 weeks since it’s being built right now. My goal will be to bring an amp that’s musical at low volumes and thats WHY I chose the xa25. I know it won’t compete with the hegels at full throttle but on paper it should beat the hegels at low volumes. If I can bring a dog fight to the black system at low volumes (<90db) and NOT be at above the 55k retail price tag then I’ve won the battle. What I’m trying to accomplish is to put together an analog set up that can best the black system for less than 55k. The ref 10 is 30k and the lumin 9500. That’s 39,500. That leaves me with about 15,000 dollars (retail price) for an amp. Typically amps that retail for 15k sell used for about 8-9500 dollars depending on the brand. See essentially I’m looking for an amp that sells for 9500 dollars MAX.
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haha mrdecibel. i don't know what will happen with it and it is still very early since you know i have to break it in for a while before it sounds its best. |
Update:
i have just listed my pass labs 350.8. I also took a couple of pics where you can see the hegel h30 amps, black system, ref10 just in case there is any doubt as to whether i own what i write about or not. :) |
So I just had the wife listen to a song on both systems. Volume was about 92db.
She chose the ref 10 with the hegels... surpring !! |
Alright boys and girls, i may be closing on a deal on the bat 655se... first time using that brand and well let’s see how it does against my heavy hitters. Right now, the Hegels in mono mode are INSANE to say the least. Huge soundstage and current. My Wilsons love them!
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Guys,
i am still trying solid state but that’s only because the 250se go for over 15k on the used market. I liked my gs150 but I’m not sure the 250se is THAT MUCH BETTER than the gs150. I do want to try the ref250s but I will be honest, It is hard as nails to sell audio research amps. I mean, it has to be the perfect timing and you happen to be lucky someone was looking for it but other than that, it’s just too hard.
Thst said, I’m now contemplating the bryston 28b3s Monos, but what’s stopping me is not knowing if they would actually best my h30s in mono mode ? I mean I’d be shocked if the Bryston kill my hegel h30s.
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Thanks Jona for your feedback. Can you elaborate more please on what’s better ? |
Fyi:
You might want to hear the last video again that I posted earlier today. As an FYI, YouTube takes time to completely process the audio and video after a video is uploaded. Typically the sound and video is better hours after it has been uploaded (when it's high def of course).... |
I have been listening to my ref10 with the hegels for the last 2 hours and there is no harshness or fatigue of any kind at any volume level. Detail is through the roof and so is the soundstage.
I will switch to the black system later this afternoon. |
Ladies & Gentlemen,
i have been listening to the ref10 with hegel h30s in mono mode for the last 5 hours. i was working away on my laptop and let the music play and play and then finally closed the laptop and began to listen critically. i heard at approximately 87-92db depending on the song. I heard music non stop and had zero fatigue. Soundstage was large and in charge with plenty of detail, mids, highs, bass, EVERYTHING. I wanted to just saturate my hearing with music through the ref10/hegels so that i can then switch to the black system and so when i did switch... The soundstage sounds smaller, less massive wall to wall sound and this is just simply heartbreaking because i have been praising this set up for a long time now. I love it top to bottom, but i can’t deny the ridiculous current and HUGE power on tap from the hegels. Today is a sad day for me because my ears allowed me to just hear the change in sound without me trying to. It felt as if i instantly heard my walls close in when i went to play the black system.
This has been an interesting lesson for me. My gut feeling was that i needed more horsepower to produce the huge voltage that these class d amps were putting out. The reason why the Wilsons were sounding huge and big was because the black system’s monos have massive current/voltage and it took more than 1,000 watts per channel from a solid state amp to give me all the current and voltage to best the black system's huge soundstage. What an interesting finding huh?
But do you see WHY we are all in love with this hobby? WHY we go through countless hours of lifting back-breaking amplifiers?
i had pass labs 350.8, simaudio 860a, hegel h30 in stereo mode and they all lost against the black system. None of them could put up the huge soundstage of the black system. They all got their a$$ handed to them.
That said, the hegel h30s are INSANE with insane drive, dynamics, slam and they don't even run hot at all. I also find them more transparent than many amps i have owned in the past which includes pass labs. Remember, pass labs is tuned to sound more or less like tubes so it will impose its sound everywhere. That is not the case with Hegel.
In the end, i can honestly say i have truly enjoyed every single minute of the black system’s transparency and detail with all its glory and incredible presentation. I expect class D to eventually surpass solid state pieces because let me tell you that the gap is narrower than ever. I am predicting that class d will eventually close the gap and surpass good old class ab components. It is nature, it is part of the evolution of technology. We have to learn to embrace new things as long as they are indeed better than what is already in place.
For now, my reference 2 channel becomes the follow:
ARC REF10
HEGEL H30/MONOBLOCKS
PS: Total price is $70k retail to best the $55k Black System. That is a huge praise to that class d system :)
If you have $55k to spend on a front end, don’t even try to find something else better than the black system. It does not exist.
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Hi guys,
the black system has never been turned off since I received it. The hegels had been on since last Friday and the ref10 was on today for 5 hours.
The hegels are monsters and far superior than one. Trust me, a single Hegel can’t hang with the black monoblocks but two hegels just threw a soundstge as big as an imax screen.
Guys, well I’m also in conversations to bring a pair of bryston 28b3. I owned the 4b3 and I didn’t find it all that ? But I was told the 28b3 are just so far ahead and superior to the rest of the amps that bryston makes that i want to try it. It will be one hell of a shootout between the 28b3 and the h30s... I am now wanting to do massive monoblock shootouts but without the insane heat.
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My current speakers are the Wilson audio Sasha 2s. They are growing on me. The only thing I can’t get to sound how I’d like is the bass. It sounds maybe a tad too “out of phase” or not how I am used to hearing it. The tweeter is about 4 feet away from the the back wall so they have plenty of room behind them.
That said, my next experiment will probably be the simaudio 650a in mono mode. I just need to find a second one to try this. I will say that a few people told me that my hegels are way better than the Brystons 28b3. I was told the Brystons won’t come close to the h30s in Monos. Who knows ?
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I have tested one Hegel versus 2 in mono mode only twice and I didn’t need to do it again. With my Wilson speakers, the difference was MASSIVE. A deaf person could have heard it.
Yes I also read that review and I still tried it myself and I can tell you that Wilson audio sounded far better with 1200 watts than with 300. It was impressive and effortless at all frequencies.
Lastly, I don’t trust those punk @ss reviewers. Heck, my current set up is much better than the set up he was running. His preamp was nowhere close as good as my ref10. I don’t believe everything I read.
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I’d like to try the luxmans for sure but I don’t see that happening. Luxman amps sell for far more than my hegels and I don’t think I want to spend north of 20k to experiment with that. I’d like to stay at under 14k used market price When it comes to amps. Pass labs 600.8, bryston 28b3, simaudio 860 Monos are all choices that fall within that price.
As far as what that reviewer said about Hegel monos not being as good as the stereo version, I believe he must have had speakers that are over 95db efficient. That’s the only way I can see why a stereo Hegel should suffice. I’m telling you, Wilson audio Sasha’s truely came from the dead when I strapped on my hegels in mono. Even low level detail came forward and put dead center. I thought well maybe I need to put back a single Hegel and listen again and as soon as I did that, the soundstage collapses and gets narrower.
Actually, I don’t even think a pair of simaudios or pass labs 600.8s would best these hegels. However, i can only find out by trying. I don’t think there’s any other amps that put out 1200 watts into 8ohms and 2k into 4ohms while staying at 14k used market value. I’ve been looking and don’t seem to find them. |
All I can tell you is that specs quite often s just exactly that... specs. You don’t really know how good something sounds until you bring it. Perfect example is the luxman 900u. Only 150 watts per channel and I don’t find it any less strong or powerful than a 350 watt per channel amplifier.
That said, remember the hegel h30 was made to serve as a mono amp first which can also work as stereo. If you go to the Hegel site you’ll see they give you the power ratings as a mono from the get go and then you have to dig in there to locate stereo ratings.
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Tomcy, you’re right. However, there’s one HUGE difference. I don’t make a penny from any of this. Should I be charging you all ? May be I should review a component each month and then charge a subscription. Trust me, with all the money I’ve spent, I think i got a pretty good following now and I can get people to pay to read my reviews and by the time the magazines release their own review, they will be many months behind me.
Anyhow, I am pretty content with how my system sounds right now but of course I want to try the next great or bad thing. What will it be ? Bryston? Gryphon? Agostino? |
You all take the crazy reviews from magazines like it’s the Bible. Read them and inform yourselves but don’t assume that because the reviewer said it’s no good that it will also be no good for you. Take reviews with a grain of salt and use them to understand a little about the product. I am about to start charging you all for the advice I give here.
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People do not appreciate free things. The mind is trained to think that anything you pay for has to be better than free stuff. If you gave your kids a Ferrari to drive to school and they crashed it and then you replace it, they don’t have a reason to take care of it.... it’s free. They didn’t work for it. Same applies to this. My value is indeed diminished because it’s free advice. If I were to take more of my time to write structured reviews with a beginning, a body and a conclusion, then I’m putting more effort to write something more coherent, with proofreading, with logic, etc. That takes time and effort and money. This is why I just put my thoughts down here as I go without being too concerned about perfect grammar or punctuation, etc.
I could totally elevate my reviews to have more meat and potatoes in them. I could add more cabling, try amps in 30 amp outlets, try subwoofers in a 2 channel environment, acoustic panels, different dacs, ribbon speakers vs panels, stillpoints, mono amps vs stereo amps, class d vs tubes. I could do a journey where I go after the best amp for bass control, best for mids and highs,etc
There’s so much more thought I can give this journey, but I’d need a return for more effort and time.
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To be honest here, MOST PEOPLE that i have spoken to have never owned a component for 20 years... I mean, that is almost unheard of nowadays, but i guess there is still a possibility there.
I also want to point out, if you are going away on vacation for weeks or if there is a thunderstorm, etc then yes unplug your amps. Let me just clarify on something: IF you are a REGULAR user of your system, DO NOT unplug your stuff, but if you are the type that listens every 2 weeks because you travel for work, etc, etc then yea i can understand you unplugging things.
As far as the Niagara 5000 vs Denali 6000T, i will be talking about this during my next video which will come tonight. |
Update:
just bought a wireworld starlight cat8 Ethernet. I used between my lumin and the router. Massive hum. I couldn’t seem to get rid of it. I tried it even using the black system as a source and the humming continued. The hegels weren’t having it.
I then went to just use it in the black system and connected the router to the black system using this cable and zero humming. This tells me that the hegels hated that cable because the simaudio didn’t give me any sort of hum when I replaced the hegels just to try. That said, I proceeded to just connect the hegels in the p20 rather than in the wall and problem solved. All hum is gone. With that said, I’m now playing music and I just started to hear background music that I didn’t know was there before. I don’t know what did it. Was it the Ethernet cable or the fact that I plugged in the amps into the p20? |
so i just proceeded to connect the simaudio 860a back in the system and the soundstage just collapsed. Lethargic, no muscle to it. It almost feels as if the hegels are a pair of blue nose pitbulls and the simaudio is a chihuahua lol. Terrible analogy for sure :) |
Simaudio amps are good. I can’t say anything bad about them. I need to try it in mono mode vs my hegels. Speaking of Hegel, I’ve spoken to 3 dealers today and they all told me that I won’t Best the hegels for under 13k. They said it’s impossible. I’d need to spend north of 15k to beat them.
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M900u sold. That person has m900u in monoblock configuration. |
I don’t have the salons. They’re gonea. I suspect dual hegels will also massively improve their sound.
Guy, most of you don’t understand that The Hegel h30 is made primarily to be a monoblock. They just wanted to allow it to be a stereo amp so that the person eventually buys a second one. You all think for some reason that the Hegel h30 is a stereo amp made to work as a mono. It’s actually the other way. I am telling you, the Hegel h30 in mono mode is crazy. It makes me feel I have like I have a massive krell amp with 1,000 watts per channel. |
well guys, i am working on a deal on a pair of Bryston 28b3 monos. I am also working on another deal that i wasn’t contemplating, but i may have to slowly abandon the idea of keeping the black system. I may be (fingers crossed) stepping into a pair of monos that retail for north of 45k dollars.
Let’s see what will happen. I don’t want to talk too soon and then things fall through, but it would be my first time venturing with this brand.
I won’t say much else until i know the deal is done and they are headed my way :) |
