If you think the McIntosh c2600 is remotely close to the ref 6 let alone the ref 10 then you’re either listening through Polk audio bookshelf speakers or you’re partially deaf.
Remember, buying a ref 6 makes sense if the rest of your components are up to par. You can’t hear a difference when you’re using def tech speakers. As a matter of fact I don’t understand why anyone would buy any other speaker other than electrostatics if your speaker budget is little. A pair of montis or summit x would be better than the top of the line polk audio model. If your budget is 5k for speakers then you buy those speakers I mentioned above unless you’re stealing a pair of 20k speakers for 5k. |
People keep being drawn to the gauges of McIntosh equipment. I don’t mind the brand at all and when bought at the right price then it’s good to own. Audio research is just above at all levels. McIntosh is just a cheaper alternative to audio research. Look, on Tuesday I’m buying the ref 10 again which is still the best component I’ve owned. Hell I may even buy the 250se to try it with the Wilson audios or perhaps the momentums? The point is the ref 10 is coming back because I want to try it once I am set up in my new home.
Lastly, people need to understand that magazines need to make money and need manufacturers to advertise. They can’t bad mouth and I get it.
Stop listening to what magazines say. Use it as a foundation but just know that you may feel different when you try it.
If I recommend a component, you’re most likely to also like it and be impressed by it depending on what you have owned. |
Funny guy... but then again you listen to techno so maybe you should just go get a good old AIWA bookshelf stereo system and you’d be happy :)
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Coming up tonight :
Shunyata Denali 6000T VS Audioquest Niagara 5000.
Stay tuned for the video |
Hahaha. That’s how the story goes here guys. Remember, you can walk the horse to drink the water but you can’t make the horse drink it. |
@ron17.
you have an interesting question in regards to how i feel about what we discussed a year ago. So i remember saying that speakers should be about 50% of your budget and right now (a year later) things are different for me. I own Sasha DAW which are not more money than my DCS DAC & Upsampler plus the Gryphon. I think it really depends on the advancements in technology to be honest. For instance: Let's say you have a speaker right now that is current and it retails for $50,000 and the rest of your set up adds up to another $50,000. Fast forward 5 years from now and you might find that there is now another manufacturer that now builds a speaker superior to your $50k speakers and yet it only costs $35,000. All of a sudden you find yourself with a speaker that costs less than the rest of your rig (adding all components of course) and so it is difficult to say, let alone stay within this proportion we talked about.
For the most part i have only owned 1 speaker that was more than the rest of my rig and those were the Neoliths, but now that i think about it i realize that the rest of my journey i have always had speakers that probably are below the 50% total value of my rig.
However, i don't believe that you could do a 15k speaker like let's say a martin logan 13a and use 100k worth of components and pretend that this will blow away a 50k speaker with 65k worth of electronics ($115k msrp on both systems). I don't think that electronics can close the gap when the speakers are oceans apart in terms of their price point. |
Techno,
if you like McIntosh then more power to you. Some people gotta love Burger King over five guys and that’s totally fine. At the end of the day, it’s your money and you can do as you wish.
The luxman 900 is a diamond though. McIntosh should take some notes and figure what luxman does to sound so amazing. |
Alright guys, the second ref 10 has just arrived. I wanted to throw a question out there and see what everyone’s opinion is.
I am supposed to get the Wilson audios this Wednesday so I want to ask you all which set up do you think will win when powering Wilson Sasha 2s?
1. Belcanto black system
2. Ref10 pass labs 350.8
3. Ref 10 Hegel h30
4. Ref 10 simaudio 860a
let me hear your opinions ! |
I wow wow wow. Everyone seems to be thinking the pass/ arc is going to best the black system and the other amps. I believe from a reputation standpoint that would make sense because those 2 have plenty of it. However, I will be honest and say I have a gut feeling the Hegel /arc will surprise as well.
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One dealer friend of mine said the Hegel arc combo will be the best out of of them
with Wilson. |
Guys,
Scroll past the comment above please. Thank you. |
The black system version 2 which is what I own is actually 55k. It went up 5k. With this set up, you don’t need any amps, preamps, dacs, renderer, or expensive balanced cables to connect your preamp to the amp. You can sell of the above.
I also just bought a second Hegel h30 so I will be using Hegel h30s in monoblock configuration which would put out 1,100 watts into 8 ohms and 2,000 into 4ohms each.
The goal is to finally hear these amps in mono and to also see if perhaps two hegels in mono mode with the arc ref10 will actually best the Belcanto black.
Although reviewers say the h30 in mono is no good, I’m pretty much saying screw whatever the hell they said. I’m gonna my own damn experimentation and report back.
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I am doing the set up myself and I understand Wilson is the easiest speaker to screw up if you don’t set them up right.
I said it before, I wasn’t impressed by the Alexia 1 and Alexia 2 but they also had music that I’m not familiar with. I have an itch to try a Wilson audio speaker and I will do so because i need to get it out of my system. If I end up not liking their sound signature after trying to set them up for a few weeks and using all of my different set ups, then I’ll move them. I have my salons in the living room but nothing is plugged in yet. It’s a new room as well so it’s an entire new set up with new room, speakers and Front end. For me to keep the Wilsons they will have to blow away my salons and 13a. I won’t hang on to them if they just fail to impress me here. That said, Let’s remember I’ve got 2 serious set ups and so maybe the Wilsons will impress here. I’ve already heard from several friends who are saying I’ll part ways with the Wilsons in 2 weeks because they know I love the Logan’s and they are nothing like Panels. They said the only thing they do better is that they have great bass and that’s about it.
If I sell the Wilsons, my next speaker could be a paradigm persona, Magico, etc. |
Wilson audio Sasha 2 is in the house...
salon 2s, Martin Logan 13a, Wilson Sasha 2 are all standing next to each other in my living room... no plan to listen to anything until Saturday night or Sunday. Things are going to get really interesting |
Yes, I have been told a lot of people are living through me in terms of audio gear. I am just happy to be able to do this and have a good network to do business with. |
right now, i am hardly listening to music because of the move, but before i was averaging about 5 hours on friday night and 5 on saturday... |
@thieliste
Momentum HD preamp and mephisto seem to have excellent synergy. However, I heard from someone who owns the relentless Monos and he is using the Pandora gryphon with his monos and he owns the HD preamp as well...go figure ?
I personally would love to bring the Pandora preamp home and compare against my HD Preamp...
One thing I can say is that I don’t like the Rossini directly into the mephisto...the soundstage is diminished and the 3d of the high frequencies is also absent. This phenomenon is now easier than ever before to be able to detect changes. I mean I knew going dac direct into amps in the past meant more detail but less control when comparing to a preamp in the mix. With the mephisto, you are now able to not only tell that story but you can also pin point what went backwards by removing a preamp (a great preamp of course) from the chain. |
I’d say You should stick to luxman amp and pre amp together. The 900u sound best when used together.
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I would love to try your m400s. That amp is on my bucket list.
as far as Wilsons having a small sweet spot, I’m not sure yet. I heard them before I bought them and they sounded great to my ears but I can’t report yet until my room begins to take shape tonight. My intention is to begin my first listening sessions tomorrow during the day at some point.
I have heard from 3 other friends and they all have their money on the ref 10/pass 350.8 combo. What’s interesting to me is most people are writing off the black system but these are also people who are “old school” and in their late 50s. I’m not sure if age has to do with it but I noticed that the people who are voting for the ref10/pass combo have not heard or even seen the black system in person. I have a soft spot for the ref10 but I’m quite nervous that the new black system I have has improved drastically in terms of sound after its latest update which added mqa and a bunch of other connections on the back that were not present before. The update pretty much meant gutting the entire preamp and putting all new guts with the only thing kept in place being the chassis. That’s it.
I remember listening to the black integrated in my home and omg that thing had MASSIVE bass. It sounded full and crazy powerful with insane control.
The one thing I need to take into consideration is that this black system may need to be broken in. I may need to plug it in the leave on for a long time before I can hear it hit its stride. |
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Black integrated is far superior...
update: I plugged in the Wilson audios with some cheap speaker cable I had. I used the lumin s1 as my preamp and the Hegel h30. I threw the Wilson audios about 4 feet off the back wall and 3.5 from the side walls. They are about 6 feet apart which isn’t enough and I was about 13 feet away. Oh and the recliners were between me and the speakers. I stood about 4 feet behind the recliners and fired up the Wilsons and here are my impressions with this crappy “on the fly” audition:
1. Massive bass output that pressurized the room. Reminds me a lot of the platinum 500s.
2. HUGE MIDRANGE.
3. Smooth and detailed highs.
4. The most dynamic sound I’ve heard.
With that said, since im in a new room
which is better than my last one, I thought maybe it was the room helping so I plugged in my salons and they did sound better than in my last room. That said, the Wilson are just on another league. I mean, if I had walked into my room today and someone told me the black system was playing instead of the hegel and lumin s1, I would have believed it. It was THAT IMPRESSIVE. So right now, my preliminary impressions are that the Wilson audio is just incredible sounding even with me
not using a preamp at all. What an amazing realism and detail. I TOTALLY DIG IT!
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The Belcanto Black integrated had the best bass I’ve ever heard. Even better than the black system version 1. I was told that my version 2 Black system now has the same bass if not better than the integrated.
The Mark Levinson has enough juice to drive a lot of speakers but it won’t handle the big speakers with the same authority as the black integrated.
What a lot of people here don’t understand is that the black line from Belcanto are THE BEST digital components in the world. They are at the top of the food chain sitting by themselves. The issue is that some people are judging it based on their past experience with perhaps a nad or wyre4sound or other class d products and the truth is that these brands are NOT at the level of this black gear. That’s a Toyota and the Belcanto Black line is a Bentley. Take a look at my patterns. I bought the luxman pieces 3 times, the Belcanto Black twice, audio Research ref 10 twice, etc. That’s a testament of how I feel about them.
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The arc ref6se was/is for the magnepan....and to try to see how the Merrill 118s behave with tubes in the mix since there were a lot of people who whined constantly about class d sounding dry or cold or sterile. I wanted for people to see how good a class d amp and a tube preamp can be.
Hell, I already said it here I had a dealer come over and listen to the Merrill with arc ref6se versus the full Momentum with my Alexia 2 and he chose the Merrill 118s with arc ref6se. The Merrill 118s with the arc REF6SE is incredible. I am very shocked at how good that combo is.
Think about it, you get the speed of the Merrill class d, tbe sweetness/romance of the tubes and the bass control of class d. What's not to like ?
On a side note, there is NO WAY there is only a 15 watt per channel difference in power between the coliseum and mephisto....HELL NO.... |
Anything is possible...
That said, I'm not sure I want to embark on buying vinyl... The storage and space plus it's too finicky. It is so delicate and i love knowing a dac is pretty much plug and and play and add your cables or interconnects. |
Update: just got everything hooked up. First up is the Belcanto. Not broken in as some of you know it just got a full update.
Right now I am also using the ps audio p20
and everything is connected to it. My impression is that it is not good at all. Not really impressed but I have to be fair. It just came back so it will need time. I will try the ref10 in about an hour with the h30 preamp.
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Belcanto is waking up... the ref10 and Hegel sounded good as expected. Things are a little confusing. I may try to plug all my amps straight into outlets. |
Maybe i will buy this accuphase from you after it has enough dust on the box ? :) |
1 hour into it: I have the Belcanto edging out the ref10 and Hegel. I will try to change out xlr cables and see if it’s my silver xlr cables that are warming up the sound too much. You see what I have been saying all along? Now I gotta start chasing xlr, power cords etc to try to catch up to the black system. Ugh. |
You guys are right. I won’t change a thing for a week or so. The black system will be left on too. I won’t be changing anything and let things just settle. I’ll simply assess things on a daily basis. That said, I went to bed at 330am and felt the black system versus ref10/Hegel h30 was very close to pick a winner at this early stage. Some songs go better with the black system and others with the ref10. I was listening at low volumes as well in order to not wake anyone up. I plan to listen at louder volumes today and compare again. |
Ria
Stop procrastinating and plug that xa25 into the wall or send it to WCSS to try it. I'll punish it here and see what it can do. Lol :)
Accuphase is on my radar. It's really getting to that point now with accuphase. Unfortunately my connections don't carry it because the distributor is murdering people with the obscene mark-up. |
Today I listened to about one hour of music. I brought out the pass labs as well and let it idle for about 90 min. I don’t know where to begin. I thought the black system really kept a cleaner image of things. Things felt clean sounding with zero noise. Bass was tight and controlled. Next I played the ref10 with pass. I thought it had amazing detail and sounded so relaxed yet detailed. Both presented about the same soundstage size width and depth. That said, I felt like the ref10 had me sitting down and didn’t once make me want to turn things down. Things just flowed with great detail and authority. This doesn’t mean the black system made me want to turn things down. It just sounded a little more in your face and presented itself dead center. Great authority and dynamics. Again, both have amazing presentations but very different. That said, the black system (the dac/preamp) is not broken in at all. I don’t know what will happen in a few weeks. I plan on leaving the black system on and so I figure in about a week it should have a lot of hours so I can listen to it again. |
Well, i have mixed feelings right now. One hour i feel like i should keep the belcanto for these reasons:
1. sounds good, crystal clear
2. easiness of use. no drama, plug and play, no need for big amps or ventilation etc.
3. no cost of ownership of any kind
4. It seems to be upgrade-able5. big soundstage6. good bass control
Another hour i feel like i want to keep the ref10/hegel or pass combo for these reasons:
1. sounds musical which makes me enjoy the music a hell of alot.
2. engaging at any volume level
3. good bass control
4. Good price. i probably can not lose money if i keep it for a year or so
5. huge soundstage6. zero fatigue after hours of listening
Bad points of belcanto:
1. if i listen for too long, my hearing can get "tired" and maybe this is due to it needing to be broken in?
2. class d changes rapidly so how long before a new class d set up shows up for half the money and kills this set up and i have to scramble to get rid of it at a substantial loss?
3. Is wilson/belcanto too forward sounding when played together?
bad points of ref10/hegel/pass:
1. tubes... 800 dollars for the set i think?
2. having to mix and match cabling and amps in order to improve.
3. heat from the unit and heat from the amps
4. the space needed for the unit and the amps being used plus the source
here is how much both set ups are:
black system 55k retailref10/pass/lumin s1 54k retail
Again, these are my findings so far with the black system still breaking in. i don’t know if the system will indeed "smooth out" or not sound too forward. This is not harsh sounding, but i don’t know if it will settle and sound as detailed yet relaxed as the ref10 is. |
What Needs to break in is the dac... my amps are broken in.... |
Lol man if I gotta break in the cables, the amps, the dac, the preamp, the speakers then next thing you know I’ll have to break in my wife too lol |
Hi,
i own the black system, latest version 2.
I find the Wilson audios very dynamic and forward. Depending on the type of music you listen to, they can be really good or a little too much if you play them loud. That said, please remember I am also using systems that are not fully there yet. I love a lot of what Wilson is doing in my room. The platinums are smooth and never fatiguing but if you’re a person who only listens to music for 30 min then the Wilson may be better for you. If you listen to music for hours then the platinum might be better. Again I’m still doing preliminary info at this time.
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I am not saying I don’t love mine. I am just letting people know my findings. The speakers are super dynamic and that can be a reason why they may come off as forward sounding. Notice I never said bright sounding but rather forward. You need to select warm sounding electronics in my opinion. |
You are correct. I agree with what you said. Also, I keep saying it over and over again: to properly assess anything you need to sit down for hours listening and listening and see how your hearing is doing. You can’t reallu do this by playing 3 songs. It doesn’t work that way. The monitor audios are darker sounding and do have great detail but they aren’t as detailed when you first sit down. That said, as you keep listening you’ll realize that all the detail has always been there but it is not as pronounced or in your face.
I like a lot of what Wilson does ans they have a huge amount of depth in their sound. I don’t think I’ve heard a speaker that sounds as deep in terms of soundstage, not bass.
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@thieliste
How was the emm labs ? |
so i think what i am going to be doing is continue to listen to the black system on the background. Right now i have it connected to my OLED TV just to watch regular tv and allow it to clock in more hours and break in faster. i also just let it play music in the background all day long. I will then go different shoot outs each weekend and see what is happening with the sound. Will i prefer the ref 10/hegel or the ref10/pass over the black system? we shall see... i plan on sticking to everything for about 4 to 6 weeks before i decide which system i prefer and potentially sell the system that i feel is not my #1.
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Alright guys, i have a chance to pick up a gryphon diablo 300 integrated. has anyone heard this thing before? the word on the street is that these have amazing synergy with Wilson? Anyone ? |
News: oppo will stop production of their Blu-ray players. They are going to file for chapter 11.... tough industry to be in guys. Video is so hard to stay on top. Tvs change so fast and Blu-ray players as well. Oppo just couldn’t keep up with sony, lg, Panasonic etc. Those monsters mass produce players for very little and oppo can’t survive off of us audiophile people. They simply can’t. Sad news but expect to see a ton of oppo players flooding the market by the end of the month.
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sounds good. So tonight i have been sitting down listening to the black system for about 2 hours at about 90-92 db. I love what it is doing, but i don’t know if it is me who is just tired or my ears are tired. It was a huge soundstage that is almost unreal. I don’t know if maybe it is my silver cables ? maybe the silver power cords? i now want to do the same exercise tomorrow but using the ref10/pass. i want to see what happens to my ears after 2 hours of listening. Also, i think i may have to bring my last weapon... The last amp in a box which is the simaudio 860a. Now that amp is never harsh, or anything like it. It is crazy detailed with a ton of smoothness. I am going to be so damn mad if i find that the simaudio/ref10 combo is the best out of the bunch here after listing for a few hours |
Right now, the black system has a bit deeper soundstage. Both sound great though so we are talking two systems with huge soundstage. |
Yes a 2k preamp can compete with a 200k preamp but it isn’t going win unless the 200k preamp is a bag of s$it. You are essentially saying a 20k Toyota Corolla can compete with a s600 twin turbo Mercedes. Sure they can leave off the line together and race but for what purpose ? |
Update: I just plugged my simaudio this morning. It has been on for about 12 hours and I fired up the ref 10. My impressions:
1. Good synergy and amazing smoothness.
2. Amazing detail, mids, lows.
3. Great soundstage.
I then proceeded to try the black system with the same song:
1. Massive soundstage.
2. Spooky detail that almost makes you feel like it walks around the living room.
3. Just a tad shouty at times. Not sure if it’s due to it not being broken in.
That said let’s remember the simaudio is only warming up. It should be ready to fire on all cylinders by Friday.
Man, the black system is so impressive but what I love about it is almost what gives me a tad of fatigue after long sessions. It’s like loving a good old beer and drinking it but you want to keep drinking it until you’re sick to your stomach and almost puking. That’s the best analogy I can find. I need to figure out a way to get the Wilsons to tame down just a tad. I still have so many things up my sleeve like cabling, using the resistors the speakers come with. Etc. A lot left to try before I make a true assessment of the black system. I am just crazy about how massive it sounds. I swear I feel sometimes as if have surround speakers when playing it. I love it and hate it at times. |
Thanks Guido. That’s what I’m hoping for. So far I like what I hear but need to fine tune things a bit.
One thing I will say is that if I had to choose a set up right now, I’d choose the black system.
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You are correct. I totally agree with what you said above. That said, I can’t stay with something for 3 or 5 months. This means I’d be reviewing 3 amplifiers a year lol
update: I unplugged the black system monoblocks from the p20 and went straight into the outlets. I find the system to have less of a “in your face “ sound. Less shouty. |
Update: I left the pass labs and ref10 on for 2 hours before I began to play music. Long story short, the pass labs 350.8 does not have the level of detail and low volume that the simaudio 860a does. I listened to about 10 songs and I always chose the simaudio. I think the pass amp needs to be cranked up in order to shine. I just think that the simaudio has more usable power that lives right in the sweet spot where I listen. Yes, if I crank up the pass labs to say 95 dB then the pass 350.8 may be better. I can see be pass 350.8 be a better choice for anyone who has a huge room or hungry speakers.
I don’t see any benefit in owning the pass 350.8 if you listen at <93db. I think it’s actually a waste of muscle if you listen at low volume. The simaudio has more detail and smoothness at low levels.
With that said, I will probably be selling my 350.8. It’s excellent but for my particular set up just does not make any sense. I won’t be blasting music at 95dbs for hours nor do i own power hungry speakers. If you all own hungry speakers like Magnepan, or rockports etc then yes I’d choose the 350:8.
I’ve learned quite a bit here from this exercise. The main thing has been understanding which amp sounds better within the level you listen at. I love loudness but I don’t blast music for extended periods because I get ear fatigue.
Will be looking for a new home for my 350.8 soon.
aside from that, the black system continues to impress. At low volume, it’s the best thing I’ve heard period. I have managed to tame down the shouty feeling it was giving me at first when I cranked it up. Tomorrow I will crank it up after not doing so for the last 5 days.
The ref10 and simaudio is a deadly combo though. That’s a killer synergy in every way and it is actually closer in sound to the black system than the Hegel or the pass were. |
Although what you suggested makes sense, I’m comparing how things come. I don’t feel like making a 4,000 dollar investment on tubes that I won’t be able to get out of if I decide to part ways with the ref 10.
Update: today I blasted things to about 95-98db. Black system is just too difficult to best by the ref10. I can’t seem to be able to dethrone it regArdless of how hard I try. I will update this thread later tonight. I did a great experiment and I’d like for everyone to chime in and tell me what their thoughts are. |
Thanks for all the feedback guys. I love reporting everything so you guys can use it to make your own purchases.
One thing that is making me mad is that I’ve had a problem with music stuttering when using tidal. I noticed it happens sooner when I skip songs. It feels as if the music doesn’t buffer fast enough and my internet is not slow. According to the speed test it is about 90 mbps yet it’s slow buffering music at times. Today I went out and bought a arris 8200 modem which cost me $200 dollars at Best Buy. I Was told the issue was the modem and not the router (I own an Apple airport express) so I bought a modem but after doing my listening today, the problem came back. What baffles me is that my black system, lumin s1 are connected via Ethernet straight into the router and yet they stutter occasionally? Anyone have this same issue? Is it my Apple router ? I’ve heard Apple routers are solid and mine has never given me an issue but it’s 3 years old. Not sure if I should return my modem and put them the old modem and buy another better router instead ? Let me know your thoughts please. Thanks ! |
