No I haven’t heard either, or the msb discrete. But they’re (discrete and Bartok) in the price range I’ll be looking down the road and are probably the two manufacturers I’m most interested in. That’s why I’m so keen about this shootout.
I’ve heard both brands have a house sound that transcends the models, so even tho this shootout has neither of the exact dacs in my range, still incredibly useful and probably the most relevant heas2head I’ll be able to hear. Rossini is above where I’d want to spend for this system.
Realistically it will be very difficult for me to compare dcs to msb in my system or even at a dealer bc none near me and dunno if there even are any dealers that sell both brands. Probably there are but I haven’t seen who that might be
Edit: in my post above I said “if Rossini beats Bartok” but I meant “if Rossini beats msb reference” (for me in WC’s shootout) |
Chazzy do you have a prediction on which is dcs and which is msb?
sounds like you’ve experience with both brands and have listened carefully to the videos |
Well I agree that video 2 is more difficult to differentiate between the presentations than was video 1, but I still prefer demo #2 on video 2 as being better than demo #1, but by a much smaller margin than I did with video 1. |
Well had some time to catch up on some of the old videos with the M6 speakers and the large number of amps WC had over M6 window. Still not through all of them but here's how I rank the amps so far, by tier group. Within each tier group, I'll call them a tie for me - to further delineate would have taken much more time than I had. Still have a couple other amps yet to place that I didn't get to (Essence monos, some other Pass Labs monos, maybe one other).
Tier 1: Gryphon Antilleon Evo and Constellation Centour monos
Tier 2: Audio Research Ref 160M monos
Tier 3: Gryphon Essence stereo and Soulution 530
Tier 4: Pass Labs X350.8 and XA60.8
Tier 1 pretty well separated from the other tiers. Tiers 2, 3, 4 closer together but still enough separation for me to group this way.
All with Magico M6 speaker, obviously. |
That's cool. Those are nice amps. |
“which adds $12k”
Yep, he’ll be keeping the dcs
my guess is move back to Vivaldi at some point relatively soon
WC, you should still do the reveal after the third video, per original plan. Then go ahead and do the Consternation video however you want and keep that one be blind. Interesting to see at that point if people can tell.
But the 3part current shootout has been so well set up and stands alone that you really should reveal as planned. I suspect the only reason you wouldn’t is if you aren’t happy with way people are voting and want to tip the scales back toward the losing dac |
Yeah the only msb dac I ever see listed is the old analog, which is an interesting name for a dac.
Well that is fantastic news if you follow through and keep both dacs |
WC, Viber keeps saying that XLF has a "hot" tweeter. He’s said it at least 3-4 times now.
Is Viber correct about that? Or is Viber wrong about that?
I seriously have to question Viber’s hearing (or listening skills) if he thinks that XLF has a "hot" tweeter, coming most recently from Magico M6 (that’s not disparaging M6, but its beryllium tweeter is certainly much more forward than the soft dome of the XLF - guessing that very few serious audiophiles would dispute that statement).
A debate about which tweeter is more accurate or sounds better is fair game, but misusing (IMO) terms like "hot" isn't very helpful, I'd submit. That's why Viber should be corrected or rebuked if he is wrong in that contention. If he's correct in your opinion WC, then I'll be happy to stand corrected. |
On first (somewhat distracted while working, lol) listen I’m gonna call video 3 a draw for me. Hopefully will have a chance to listen again and be able to give it more attention.
Video 1: strongly preferred #2
Video 2: slightly preferred #2
Video 3: draw pending another listen where I can devote more effort to distinguishing |
The difference with Alexandria XLF is that it has two tweeters, one front firing and one rear firing. I have to say I've never really been a fan of that sort of topology when used by the many other brands over the years that have tried it, but I've never heard Alexandria XLF in person, nor another truly high end speaker with rear firing tweeter that I can recall (I usually note the feature and probably sort of write it off out of hand, merely because I've never heard one that I liked).
So that is something I'd have to get comfortable with for sure if I'd consider a speaker like that. I couldn't just buy it blindly like WC did, lol, that's for sure |
WC you should for sure tell us which is which before switching amps. That’ll increase views.
Here’s why. Once people know the IDs based on 3 vids, when you release the new blind video under different labels (A vs B or whatever), everyone will go back and forth again thru all the first 3 vids to try and match the sound to the fourth, probably watching each one or more times yet again.
But if you just release the fourth now, nobody will go back to 1-3, and will just wait for the reveal |
Viber, as usual you don’t know what you’re talking about. You call the XLR tweeter hot, which is wrong. As to asking WC about the hot comment, that’s because he is only one in room (and YT has limitations). I said if you were right I’d stand corrected, but WC confirmed it was not hot, so you were wrong.
I prefer #2 thru two vids and haven’t had chance to sit down and hear the third vid yet, which I explained clearly.
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Chazzy,
Thanks, I’m really interested to find out.
As for my guess, I don’t have much to base it on, as I haven’t owned or had in system either brand.
My observations of WC lead me to think he prefers dcs, just based on his subtle comments over past two months, and things he has not said (almost complete lack of msb mentions).
That said, the gap in msrp gives me pause. I’m fairly certain WC prefers dcs to msb in general, but less certain that he prefers Rossini to msb reference, which is much more expensive (and thus not necessarily a fair fight). I’d have more confidence in my guess (see below) were this shootout Vivaldi v Reference, or Rossini v Premier.
Through two videos anyway, I preferred #2. Usually WC’s and my sonic preferences align, so based on that flimsy set of assumptions, if I had to guess I’d guess dcs is #2.
But I do not have a high level of confidence in that prediction. Not betting the farm, as they say…….
This isn’t like my prediction of “Big Wilson” before M6 was even gone, or the run of five or six in a row I had awhile back.
I’m just legitimately interested to know which is which, and neither outcome would surprise me too much |
Not hostile at all. Simply pointing out areas where you are wrong, IMO and confirmed by WC based on what he hears in the room. Feel free to do the same to me. If you continue to post the misleading things, I’ll continue to call you out for it, like I always have.
You allege "hostile," and I’m certainly not complaining, but your most recent post before this said I don’t know what I hear, something about holding hands, and have to rely on a Supreme Court justice to make a ruling (aside: read up on how the Supreme Court works - hint, it isn’t like that, but I digress), so that’s at least as "hostile" as I was. But again, I’m not complaining. No vendetta at all, other than to call out BS. If I post BS, call me out on it. Enjoy the ride. |
Everyone must have made up their mind after the first video, wow. The folks on this thread have been with you longer and probably more passionate about the shootouts than the random YT subscriber, but still surprising to me
Isn’t the video that’s gotten the most views all time the one where you ranked the best amps you’ve ever had for the money? I thought that one was over 20k views last time I looked |
I suppose you’re right Ron that there is a difference, but at the end of the day Viber shouts from the mountaintop that those bulletpoints I listed are audio truisms.
Judge for yourself what that implies about his claimed “expert” ability to judge hi-end audio gear. Nobody else here professes to be an expert the way he does |
Let’s stop arguing. I understand why you get so defensive when people like me and many others tell you that your audio listening skills are poor, but we do that based on the ample evidence you have provided over the years to prove that your audio listening skills are poor.
For example, you have contended based on your critical listening evaluations that:
1) lamp cord beats any other speaker cable
2) your "little Bryston" beats almost any amp WC has had in his room
3) Rane equalizer is better than almost all preamps WC has had
4) dac-direct is almost always superior to any preamp
5) and on and on
I and others read these so-called "expert" opinions of yours and roll our eyes.
Whether you can play a violin or not is irrelevant if these are the conclusions you reach based on what you hear.
I went and listed how I group (by tier groups) the various amps WC tested with M6 a few posts back. If you find those rankings to be junk, that’s fine with me, I won’t get defensive about it. |
Actually just scrolled through your whole list, and the most views consistently happen when you:
1) Negatively review something (worst components 50k views, Accuphase 24k views)
2) Rank groups of things (not rate one single thing) (best amps for the money, 20k views, best power amps under $20k, high number of views)
3). Reveal major new components like the Alexandria speakers or M6. Both high views and recent |
Chazzy,
interesting. That’s what I think too but for purely instinctual reasons as I laid out.
Viber, we’ll just have to agree to disagree
agree WC and chazzy sad about bluemartini. Didn’t know but respected poster |
Nobody cares because it’s irrelevant, but I play two musical instruments with over 12 years of training.
But it’s irrelevant. Anyone who is familiar with music can tell what instruments sound like, whether they play or not. It is entirely possible to educate oneself about musical sound and audio quality without being a musician, because the hobby of audio is listening, not playing.
If someone has a lifetime of musical training yet their audio assessments are infantile, then the musical training helps them play their instrument but doesn’t help them assess audio any more than it helps them dunk a basketball. Speaking generally here not about anyone in particular.
Now let’s move on. |
The points about life being short is a good one though, as has hit way too close to home for me recently. One of my very best friends was murdered senselessly about two months ago. Mid 40s, leaves wife and kids.
Take advantage of every day and don’t take anything for granted. Never know when time will be up |
With all due respect, Viber doesn’t need to apologize to me or vice versa. We are all adults here. Nothing that has been posted is personal or offensive or hostile.
If we are going to put ourselves out there we need to be able to accept if others disagree with us or even think we have terrible opinions, so long as those views are expressed respectfully. That’s kinda normal in life. I usually put a lot of thought into what I post, and he does too I’m sure, we just usually disagree. But yes, we should move on as I’ve been saying.
Hopefully today is the day WC reveals the identities of the dacs.
I thought ricevs opinion that the diminishing returns WC spoke of in last video applies equally to every type of component. My opinion is that while of course diminishing returns exists in all segments of audio, the curve is probably steeper with dacs. Most of us other than WC are probably trying to find that sweet spot on the curve- I know I am |
On the silver v gold choice of cable selection, I agree with the others who said that’s a pretty critical aspect that could dramatically affect choices, potentially. Or not I suppose. But potentially. Kinda funny how WC told us that at the end. Lots of variables at play with this shootout.
I’m sticking with my guess (and now chazzys) that msb #1, dcs #2. But in a strange way I kinda hope I’m wrong and it is really the opposite
|
Thx. Yep this thread is a fun outlet. Really fun to see all of the gear you go through and to hear your thoughts on it WC |
Viber,
I’m a straight shooter and I’ll be honest. I think your views on audio are fringe and so freakishly outside the norm that they are near worthless. That’s my personal view. I know that offends you, but that is my opinion.
You continually reinforce that opinion by what you post.
That doesn’t mean I think you are a bad guy or that you don’t add value to the thread. It’s not personal. Rather it’s based on your audio assessments and the way you present them. As I said, you provide the evidence.
I’m not going to lie and pretend differently about how I view your audio assessments or the audio notions you promote.
And I am not claiming to be any sort of expert and it’s only one person’s opinion. It’s WC’s thread, not a contest to be liked by as many as possible |
Thanks pokey.
On the tiff, I made clear in like 5 posts that I’d prefer to move on without being as blunt as I finally needed to be to turn the page.
Just my opinion. Everyone decides for themselves.
WC, so which dac is which?
chazzy, do you use a power conditioner? |
And thx chazzy and sorry to hear about your loss as well |
I'm just razzin' ya WC. But, you know, today would be a good day ....
haha |
If you really want a lot of views you could review really low priced stuff that you don’t mind taking the hit on, and then after doing a shootout instead of just declaring a winner, you take a sledgehammer to the loser and just fricken destroy it, like the Who or Nirvana used to do with their guitars.
That’d get 100k views. Probably not so politically correct, but .....
Yeah, I’m bored waiting for the reveal ............
disclaimer: don’t do that who knows maybe you’d accidentally electrocute yourself. just a joke post, not serious (unless it's a goldmine, then i want a cut) |
WC I dunno about the channel views but on this thread I feel like the dac shootout got more people to actually offer their opinions here on the sound than almost anything you’ve done yet on the channel.
Maybe because it so different from anything you’ve done and using arguably top two brands |
Funny.
Nah, I’d probably be the drunkest one at the party, and eventually challenge WC to arm wrestling. He’d oblige and rather than destroy me just let me flounder for 10 minutes in agony before finally dropping the hammer. I’m ok with that because I’d correctly predicted no way WC beats me in under a minute.
Mr decibel would appear and contend he can’t learn anything from the way we party.
Riaa would make fun of those drinking cheaper beers, and talk about his stash of beers that he’ll drink one day.
Viber just wants to talk about the theory of home brewing, and halfway seems to know what he’s talking about, but on further questioning reveals he’s never made a batch.
Inna is pissed about WC’s TV, not big enough or vivid enough. And vandalizes all of WC’s Pass Labs gear.
Thezaks parties along but late in the evening calls in a noise complaint.
Ron and pokey and chazzy are like I can’t believe we hang out with all these weirdos, but at least we’re not like them.
The music is just an endless loop of Liberty, Man in the Moon, and Death Row, and nobody really thinks that’s strange.
There’s a hundred people we remember seeing before but can’t really place, and another thousand who we’ve never seen before.
|
Good video WC. The "neither dac" line was pretty funny.
I think the Youtube limitations maybe constrain all of us on what we can hear in the videos (kinda goes without saying). For me, I think I focus most on tonality and dynamics in the videos, as I find them most important, plus clarity, and interestingly you gave all 3 of those wins to dcs. Well come to think of it maybe you didn’t have a "tonality" category but closest I’ll equate that to of that categories you did describe is your "mids" category, which you gave to dcs.
Most of the stuff that is less apparent via YT versus in the room was won by msb according to you.
Anyway, thanks much for the content |
WC, in video you said DCS sounded cooler than neutral and MSB sounded warmer than neutral.
Was that with the silver cable bullets?
Does DCS still sound cooler than neutral with the gold bullets, or straight up neutral? Does MSB sound warmer yet with gold than with the silver? |
Uh, I do listen on a good headphone system : )
Viber actually has a conundrum, because WC was clear that #2 had better clarity, Viber’s North Star, yet Viber chose #1, which WC also described as "warmer than neutral". I guess maybe because it had better high frequencies, per WC’s video comments - that could make sense I guess for his choice? I dunno, don’t want to speak for him. I also thought, as I commented on, that #2 had better clarity even throughout the blind tests. Not that either choice is wrong, of course, both great dacs |
While it’s all subjective I thought Boulder was much better on Alexx than was Mephisto (never really cared for that one) so I’d wager on same here |
Less clarity and warmer than neutral is what WC said about #1. Though #1 did win 6 or 7 of the categories (can’t recall exactly how many dcs won, but to me personally (only my preferences, not saying those are absolute : ) those 3 or 4 were the most important so I felt good with what WC told us and my choice, especially given cost difference between dacs) |
Yeah that’s what I’m thinking Bartok could be a good match for me, especially if I get Wilson speakers. I didn’t know Wilson voiced with dCS, which WC mentioned, so that was new info to me.
We’ll see. Still a lot of money and would for sure want to hear in person and in some comparisons in person |
Haha. When I purchased my last set of speakers, I did detailed auditions (we’re talking 30 minutes to an hour each, sometimes several hours across several amps, sometimes over 2-3 sittings) of 20-25 speakers all around my budget. But I keep my stuff a long time. Maybe that’s why what you do is so fascinating to me - I couldn’t just buy on impulse like you do.
But you’re probably right. That’s most likely where I’d end up. |
There is admittedly something very satisfying about being absolutely as sure as you can reasonably be that you are buying the very best component for your tastes at your budget based on exhaustive testing/auditioning. I did it over about six months and ended up with Spendor D series (now I’m up to D9.2), Rel S5/sho, and Audio Research. To me that combo was the best I could do for what I wanted to spend. My speaker runner ups were Dynaudio and Vandersteen as i recall, but I always kept coming back to Spendor.
Not always in same room, not always with same amps/sources/ cables, but after you do enough auditions with enough different amps/sources/speakers/cables you can begin to extrapolate and get a pretty good idea. It’s a ton of work and requires a lot of concentration and note taking though to keep everything straight, and patient dealers……
Not that any of this is even in same ballpark as WC plays in, which is why I never mention it here. But I’m a planner and planning out the next big system purchase options……Alas, realistically my next system is probably out there a ways until I get my kids off to college, which’ll be 5 years <sigh>
edit: that’s awesome pokey <thumbs up> |
None of your business : )
Kidding, but I’ve already posted TMI about my system. I should probably just delete that earlier post because it’s not relevant to this thread.
Nobody cares what I have as long as I’m not claiming what I have is better than other stuff out there, and probably then they still don’t care. Whatever I have works for me for now. This is WC’s thread about his hi-end stuff. |
Not sensitive at all. Just again, none of your business. Sometimes I’ll listen through headphones from a computer. Sometimes through headphones from the headphone amp from my dac. Sometimes through the speakers of my main system. Depends where I am and how much time I have. Last two months I haven’t had much for a reason I posted.
Oh, and I may have ripped attitudes of gear superiority or dogmatic adherence to fringe audio stances, but never gear (well of anyone’s other than WC, but he wants us to critique his gear). Huge difference between that and what you allege.
One other thing I’ve spoken out against is too much discussion or pushing of gear that has nothing to do with WC’s room or journey, which most or all of my stuff is. So I’d be a hypocrite if I now started doing that; again, another reason I don’t mention my stuff on this thread- it’s boring in comparison. If you are really that interested, you can search my 1400 posts. I don’t know if you’ll find what you’re looking for, but maybe. ; )
Even if you wouldn’t turn it into gear-shaming, plenty of others might. It’s not relevant.
Finally, I couldn’t care less what anyone thought of my audio assessments, which seems to be what you’re worried about. If you think my assessments are junk, that’s totally cool with me, because I’m not trying to impress anyone.
Which of my audio takes do you disagree with? I’ve probably provided more takes than many (even ranking the last set of amps by tiers) so there’s plenty of potential to disagree |
Here’s another reason I think WC likes the dcs better, but doesn’t want to say it. This assumes you’ve been paying attention to the channel or even the thread long before the channel.
Does WC ever keep anything? No. It always goes. Let’s be honest - if reference were better than dcs, dcs would have been gone on day one, or at least day 1 after the shootout. But it’s still here. Even if they were equal dcs would be gone because that’s what WC does, churn gear. He gave reasons like hard to reacquire but has that ever stopped him? Nope. Plus he said Vivaldi will soon be in pawn shops so if that’s true shouldn’t be hard to reaquire dcs. That’s all the more reason to dump Rossini, unless….. you know
Which dac was in the system for the video after the shootout? Yep, dcs.
Think about it (now WC will probably switch it up just to mess with me, haha)
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Wow, yeah can't believe you didn't try gold with M6. Dang. Bet it would have helped |
Most of the people who voted in the dac shootout simply said which dac of the two they liked better. Or listed a reason or two. Which is totally fine.
WC listed 10 categories (or was it 9, whatever). And msb won 6 or 7 of the categories for him.
Yet he didn’t like msb better than dcs. He said that. Why do you think that is? One reason could be that the categories he thought dcs was better in are more important to him, right? Otherwise he should have liked msb better because it won 6 or 7. I suppose there could be other reasons. I suspect he actually liked dcs better but doesn’t want to say it, but that’s just a guess. Let’s see which of the two gets more play going forward.
So I wouldn’t get too hung up on all of that. Most people just picked which they liked the best, and that’s cool. I wouldn’t assume that meant they couldn’t hear what you think you heard. Maybe they did, maybe they didn’t. Maybe they didn’t think it was important.
No reason to feel bad about being in the minority.
it sounds like you think your setup for listening to the videos is as good or almost as good as being in WC’s room. Do you think that? That would be an opinion that probably would be contended by many as impossible given YT limitations |
Ok, that makes sense. And also makes sense why you'd have then had the silver cable inserts in to liven up the msb.
But everyone notice how just a couple days ago WC said the gold inserts went in, probably at same time dcs did, and WC indicated everything sounding better than ever (or words to that effect), so take that fwiw and reach your own conclusions of what it means when he says that |
So the shootout I think WC said was filmed last Saturday. And then there was a video after the shootout.
Notice anything interesting in that video? Did you see the msb Reference in that video? I’m not talking about it playing. I’m asking, did you see it on the rack? I didn’t.
Why is that? Only WC knows. Let’s see what happens.
WC has had Rossini for at least a year straight, I believe. That normal for him with components? Normal for him with something like that to keep it after he brings in something that costs much more (reference $$ >>rossini $$)? I haven’t seen him ever do that, but hundreds of times I’ve seen him do the opposite - jettisoned the old stuff he’s had forever (well he’s probably never had anything for a year straight like Rossini, but you get the picture). So let’s see.
This wouldn't be first time WC said he was keeping something or even might have said he like it better and then next day it was gone, and the other thing stayed for months. Remember Wilson Sasha DAW and whatever more expensive Focal he had concurrently? There was a video that said Focal was better in some attributes and some people got excited, but we never saw that speaker again, and DAW was in the room for like 3 months more (whatever it was) - and there's been like 4 Wilson speakers since and just one Focal.
So watch what he does and brings/keeps in the room, that's the tell...... |
I’m happy to help you out Viber, if I have specific experience with something you need help with. You asked about Spendor, and not knowing about it. I own four of them so I know the sound well. There’s "classic Spendor" (which includes historical, current classic line, and I’d say the A line to a degree, for purposes here) and "Spendor D series." Others would say A line is just a lower cost D line, but I don’t think so - in looks, sure, but not in sound characteristics.
D series, which is what 3 of the 4 Spendors I have are (the other classic), is very different sounding from classic, and very different from most people think of when they hear "Spendor." The reason is Spendor designed 100% in-house the LPZ tweeter of the D series (research how many speaker companies make every single driver, cabinet, component at large for their speakers COMPLETELY in house, hint - not many (not even Wilson Audio), which is what Spendor does with D series; for A and classic I think they buy the tweeters or buy and modify, so not 100% in house for those).
The D series LPZ tweeter is a soft dome with a diffraction grating but which many classic Spendor fanboys find to be too bright, because they like the old pipe and slippers Spendor sound that most are familiar with. To me that sound is rather boring. The D series hits the sweet spot for me in terms of fantastic BBC era wonderful mids yet with the modern neutral and crisp tweeter. Not beryllium or diamond - I typically find those too forward (Paradigm, Focal, Magico, Bowers&Wilkins - just my preferences, others will disagree), but definitely not classic Spendor or Harbeth either. Very neutral to my ears.
So there ya go. Now you know a little about Spendor, a famous BBC era "British Sound" speaker brand, along with Harbeth and Kef and others back in the day.
I once suggested WC try it and he said he never heard of it, ha. It’s not a super popular speaker (D series) but definitely has its fans. That doesn’t matter to me. I know it’s the right one for me because I listened carefully to everything else I could before jumping in. Below $15k I haven’t heard better for my preferences |
chazzy’s cool, but the insistence that Dave and I list our systems was odd. prolly just a bad day, no worries as far as i'm concerned. viber’s not bad 82 db, haha, make that 81 |
Like I said earlier, for whatever reason the dac shootout got more participation on this thread with people actually engaging than any other shootout I can remember. Which was neat |
I actually think Viber is really good at hearing things in music (and maybe chazzy is too), but then he arrives at bonkers conclusions based on his fringe preferences haha. Which is fine if that’s his opinion just don’t push it on all of us.
But in terms of hearing things he is good. Or maybe he just writes way more about it then anyone else cares to. That could be it too. Like I said earlier most people just say what they like and maybe the highlights, not a treatise. I think one of chazzys assumptions is that because nobody else wrote as much as he and viber about the dacs that only those two heard so much. Maybe, maybe not.
Recall a month ago when people were guessing about Vibers hearing and violins and I said it’s possible he could hear as well or better than most of us.
I don’t think hearing is his problem, haha, but by definition any of us odd enough to be on this forum have issues in the societal scope of things, haha (that’s intended to be a joke) |
