Dave,
Right, some people like brighter presentations than others, but nobody else says nothing but clarity and high frequency performance matters, that bass is generally irrelevant, and that low volumes are all that are ever needed and that there is no need to play at party volumes for extended periods like he does, and with as much dogmatic conviction as he does. Haha, but I guess it gives us something to talk about |
I actually listen mostly at around 70 db also in a med/small room when listening sessions are multi-hour. I crank it up from time to time though for shorter periods, of course. |
I do not think PS Audio m1200 would beat barely any of the amps WC has shown on YT |
The funny thing is I don’t think Viber would like the PSA m1200. They are a hybrid class D amp with a tube input stage. They are not known to be clinical, which is not surprising given the tubes. Not even really necessarily completely neutral, maybe with a bit of warmth if you follow the conversations of actual owners over on the PSA forums, as I do.
But sure, would be great if Viber would acquire those and loan them to WC since Viber states they’d be better than the amps WC has |
Viber, why don’t you order the PSA m1200 and see for yourself?
PSA have a generous return policy to get your $ back if you don’t like them, which I suspect you wouldn’t, but you seem pretty convinced that they are amazing for your tastes, I guess based only on the Fremer review since I doubt you’ve heard the m1200 as they are not in dealers showrooms. Pretty much the only way to hear them is to know somebody who has them or order them yourself for the test trial (or at a show, but shows haven't happened since pandemic).
I believe purchasing on a trial period with guaranteed return if unsatisfied is what you advised WC to do many times previously for various components, until finally he told you dozens of times that he wouldn’t buy and return, not his style. |
Viber:
The problem is you claimed with zero evidence that PSA m1200 is better than most of the amps WC has shown on YT.
That is most likely a ridiculous statement (but I invite you to prove me wrong by putting your money where your mouth is) and now you are going word salad again to hope we forget your outrageous claim that you are unwilling to back up (shocker) |
With the Magico M6 going away (my guess), I hope you can get back to loving listening sessions again. I think the last 2 months with M6 have been difficult for you in that regard (you may not admit it). Reading between the lines of your CONS video, it was clear that you struggled with them the whole time.
At the one or two week mark, I used the term "wrestled" or "wrestling" with the M6 to get it to work and some here jumped on me for using those terms. Well now at the conclusion of the M6 run, I think I have been completely vindicated in using those terms as they applied to WC’s acceptance of the M6. It never got him to the point of loving music-listening sessions, or at least meeting expectations of the msrp (more than 50% higher than for any previous speaker he'd owned).
Hopefully the next speaker will be better in that regard. A speaker isn’t worth much if it isn’t enjoyable to listen to for long sessions. |
Not dead : )
Just patiently waiting for a return of a speaker that is something I’d have interest in. Not criticizing the choice, just personal preference - no doubt many loved the time you gave the M6.
TBH, you kept the M6 for much longer than I expected you to, even though it was only 2 months. Keep up the great work.
PS - and when I said "jumped on me" in previous post, I didn’t mean it in a way that offended me or anything, nothing like that, just that some folks didn’t want to recognize how difficult a time you were having with the M6 and wanted to believe everything was great with the speaker |
pressure? Hmm, not sure what that means but thanks I guess : )
WC: which speakers will DAC shootout be performed on? I'm guessing you've already filmed it, probably long ago, on the M6 |
Big Wilson. The M6 debacle has WC running back to Wilson as fast as he could, as I had predicted would be the case.
When 7 power amplifiers (3 Gryphon, 2 Pass Labs, Constellation, Audio Research) with msrp aggregate $250k, two elite dacs (dcs Rossini, msb reference) with aggregate msrp north of $100k, who knows how many preamps, stands, cables, power conditioners, room treatments, etc. (probably at least another $100k) and two+ months of grinding STILL fail to allow even minimal acceptance of a $175k speaker to even permit what ALL OF US TAKE FOR GRANTED (long, enjoyable listening sessions) with our own (comparatively modest in most cases), systems .......
there is no other conclusion that can be reached than that the Magico M6 were a disaster for WC.
Unfortunately, was foreseeable. Go read my restaurant analogy review of last Magico he had less than six months ago |
Coke and Pepsi, man. I said it day one after first video. Then I mostly held my tongue and just let it play out, not wanting to rain on the parade. |
Oops, 8 amplifiers - I forgot Soulution. Damn.
Make it an msrp of $300k amps he went through trying to make Magico listenable for extended listening sessions. Recall I had noted this deficiency, with concern, a couple times early on. Not that WC was complaining about the speakers, but he was not gushing about them and I had noted no posts about long listening, which was unusual for him.
WC easily tried a half million dollars worth of equipment in this Magico experiment, and in his own words (see video), “could never fully engage with the Magico M6 [a $175k speaker]”
I get it. WC won’t bash the speakers because doesn’t want to upset manufacturers, dealers, or his YT subscribers that are Magico fans, but just re-read these last three posts and think about all he tried, in vain, to reach minimal (long term listening) acceptance.
No chance this next speaker is anything but back to his comfort zone.
Edit: Unless WC is a billionaire and this level of expense is literally of trivial consequence to him, then I guess next speaker could be anything. |
And even if WC is a billionaire (which is really none of our business - mentioned here just for analysis purposes and laying out the prediction with logical reasoning) and the money means nothing, the absolute struggle he went through trying everything he could think of to make the Magico work and in his own words from video “failing” to be able to get there......that won’t be a road he’ll start again so soon.
He will go back to the sound he loves. Wilson Audio. Easy. |
Oops, there were actually 9 amps (not 8) - there were 3 Pass Labs amps, not 2 (XA60.8, X600.8, X350.8). Damn again.
Didn’t have much time last two months but now going back to carefully listen to the videos that I gave short shrift or didn’t hear at all before.
My ranking so far of the amps used with M6, but I’m only part way through, will update list when finish.
1. Gryphon Antilleon EVO
2. Soulution 530 and Gryphon Essence Stereo (tie)
4. Pass Labs XA60.8
Haven’t listened to the vids with more recent amps yet than those.
Edit: Liked Kharma setup better than Fyne at dealer but difficult to listen to with microphone clipping. Bookshelf setup was what you'd expect - less fulfilling than floorstanders. |
Riaa is jealous that I’m so much younger than he is but go ahead, you two boomers yuck it up, you make a good team ; ) |
Haha, I hope your wife doesn’t read this thread t know how much you’re spending! |
I just predict. No influence from here. Maybe I’ll be wrong.
Why don’t you all make your predictions?
If your pet speaker that cost $175k couldn’t hack it in WC’s room after 9 amps and $500k in msrp pairings not sure why that has anything to do with me, but whatever. I suppose some are mad that I was right, but I don’t take any pleasure in that. I have no skin in the game |
I mean, yeah I’m glad I was right in the prediction but nothing against Magico or Dagostino or other brands that aren’t my cup o tea.
It’s not me who rendered the indictment on the speaker, and I certainly didn’t know influence WC’s findings, i just predicted it. To be honest I’ve never heard it in person, so why would I hate it?
there are others here who hate on brands. Not me |
Ok buddy. But you attacked me first for no reason. And to your accusation, please quote from even one of my posts where I am kissing WC’s a&&. Just be sure to quote accurately. I don’t think you’ll find one.
WC is probably laughing at how absurd that is - I’ve probably pissed him off more than most |
Haha, maybe you guys are right. These last two months were so enjoyable for WC he should just roll the dice again. It’s just his money right?
He shouldn’t pick Wilson cause so boring, right?
maybe he should bring in Magico m9?
wouldn’t that be great? |
He did say 2 months ago he wanted Sonus Faber rather than Magico but they were back ordered til June.
Maybe he ordered then and getting those now?
Not giddy. I don’t lose any sleep over this thread or his room, haha. Surprised about the amount of $$ and effort spent trying to get a $175k speaker to work? Yeah I definitely was about that.
And after all it doesn’t mean the speakers suck or whatever. Only that WC couldn’t get them to work for him despite throwing half mil at them in parternering equipment |
Dang, I didn’t realize you were so invested in Magico. You must have really been hoping WC would have liked it better. Ok, I’ll stop talking about them and if I’m right about the next speaker I won’t even gloat.
BTW, what’s your prediction on what the speaker is? Only other person to guess is Dave w Rockport |
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New speaker better than M6. More palpable horn sounds (baritone sax I think)
yes I know a sax is not a horn (sat the row behind the bari sax for many years) but it was quick to type |
Why is that surprising to you?
There are thousands of speakers out there.
Why would you think someone could guess it?
You haven't even provided a multiple-choice list.
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Well if we’re being honest your hints can be misleading too. Last time you told us you were spending way less (like 60% if I recall ) and then unveiled a speaker that cost 60% more than Alexx.
even if amps were cheaper there is no way system was 60% cheaper (since system included same dac, cable etc) so there’s that ..... |
Alexandria XLF ("Big Wilson," as I had predicted before Jay even told us M6 were leaving).
Could be XVX also, but I think the above is a bit more likely. One of the two at any rate. Sorry guys...
Anyway, good to hear in the video that you are at least excited about how a speaker sounds again in your room (whatever it is) |
It also makes sense to me that WC is delaying the reveal of the new speaker more than he needs to (he’s had them 6 days already, and they’re likely used, not new, so break-in probably isn’t a thing).
WC knows there will be some Wilson-backlash or Wilson-fatigue after the reveal (we’ve already seen it here), and the more people who go on record now saying how great the speaker is, the less the complaints to come will hold water (wait - you loved it before you know what it was!).
I don’t think it’s so much so we can twist in the wind throwing out guesses as to what the speaker might be (although WC seems to enjoy that aspect as well), but more of the former reason. Anyway, not at all a fan of the big windup, as I always say when WC does this, but not my channel.
And if I’m wrong about the speaker, I guess this post will in hindsight be a lot of hot air, but ........
Edit: and to correct my earlier timeline, I guess I had actually predicted the M6 were leaving before WC had revealed that they were leaving, next WC confirmed M6 were leaving, and then I predicted "Big Wilson" right after that (so it wasn't before he told us M6 leaving after all - although if you remember when he was going to a dealer to listen to AlexxV I predicted at the time that if WC could find a relatively painless way to get out of the M6 and into a Wilson (I was more thinking AlexxV then), he would do it - that was a month or so ago). |
At work but listened to the first half of the video, and the advice is don't make the mistake of "taking steps backwards" (your words) again! Just remember how you're feeling about your room now versus the last two months or after you got rid of previous speakers.
You were there after Sasha DAW, you were there after Alexia 2, you were there after Alexx, and now here you are. Each time your tried to move forward but were kinda miserable with the change attempt until the next Wilson appeared, which usually didn't take 2 months as it did this time.
If you are going to go up from here you know what it will take (I'd mention it but some would get prickly so I'll leave it alone).
Anyway, congrats. The orange is badass. I almost predicted fly yellow, so now glad I didn't, haha |
It sounds like you got into the Alexandria XLF at a good entry point, and it’s pretty clear based on initial reaction that it’s the best speaker you’ve had, and you haven’t even properly set it up and dialed the timing adjustments in. Although with Viber gushing about it makes me little nervous (only kidding).
For those reasons, and because each time you’ve switched from Wilson you’ve been underwhelmed, you really should keep these long term (as you suggested you might) as a reference and then just go on with the channel bringing other stuff in (including other speakers).
I’m not the first to say this (many others have, including ricevs), but that seems like it would make so much sense. Easy for us to say of course because it’s not our money.
On the Dave v Darryl comments, I wouldn’t sleep on Darryl. Everything he’s touched starting with DAW and since has been off-the-charts acclaimed. Taking it to next level. So yeah, there’s an upgrade path to ascend higher. Not a cheap upgrade path, but a path ... |
Definitely need a second room to Jays Audio Lab ; ) |
OR......
he could just tune you out like many of us do. Yeah, I’m betting that’s what he does rather than Rane or tuning for unnatural highs and highly reduced bass as you prefer, but let’s see...... |
Haven't had time to catch up on videos (still just halfway thru M6 amps).
Is the XLF struggling in the room or are only the YT vids not being up to par (just looking at the comments here).
WC what are you hearing? |
Ha, wish I had time to. Eventually |
Ha. Haven’t had chance to listen to new Wilson speaker vids but yes Viber loving them to extent he seems to also strikes me as potentially a bad sign knowing his sonic preferences.
Only WC knows what they sound like in his room. Hopefully he will soon tell us how they compare to all his previous speakers |
He probably was referring to me, but as well, I meant no disrespect. Simply that Viber has very different sonic preferences from mainstream. That’s not disrespectful.
Just surprised that he is liking this speaker so much. Maybe Vibers tastes are changing? Who knows |
As far as Gryphon and Wilson go, there hasn’t been a better mated pairing in WC’s room than Wilson Sasha DAW and Gryphon Colliseum IMO.
Not saying absolute best sounding, but best pairing and easily pound for pound the best sounding, again imo |
There may be criticism of gear like there always has been, but I don’t understand why that would bother you WC. I guess unless it is the specific personalities of the posters doing it that is rubbing you wrong way.
You clearly aren’t married to any of this gear, so who cares if people criticize the gear, as long as they aren’t making it personal? You’re indifferent to the gear anyway, right?
Not that I’m encouraging criticism, but I think if it comes just blow it off because it’s not like you’ll have the component two months later anyway
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Because that’s what he does. It’s never been in WC’s room and probably never will be unless it is donated to him. I suspect WC’s not spending the $$ on something that will have no resale value when he wants to get rid of it a month later.
But yet it continues to get brought up ad nauseum by the same person. Just ignore it like everyone else does |
70% choosing one of these two is a surprisingly (to me) large majority |
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I think the release/conditions for the shootout sound good.
But there’s one thing you haven’t clarified, so I’m going to make a suggestion.
Definitely keep the identities hidden (you were already gonna do that), but keep the order the same across all 3 videos. In the past you have swapped things across videos and that’s needlessly confusing.
What I’m saying is, whichever dac is “demo 1” in the first video, keep it (at least) labeled demo 1 in all videos.
As long as we don’t know which is which, that’s all that matters.
If you start switching them around, not only will people get frustrated bc they won’t be able to compare across videos, but the votes will probably not be accurate because of confusion.
If you are worried about always showing the same dac first, then instead of 1 and 2, pick generic labels like Demo A, Demo B and okay to play B first on one video just don’t be making dcs A (or 1) in one video and B in the next.
Or pick colors: demo purple and demo green (or whatever). Just keep same dac with same label so we can use all 3 vids in analysis without wondering if same
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seq,
yep, your way is more of a blind test, I don't disagree. I guess it all comes down to what type of data WC is most interested in collecting.
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There’s probably some merit in doing it either way, but on balance I think the way WC is doing it is preferable. If you like dac 1 on video 1 and dac 2 on video 2 you can still vote that way - nothing preventing that.
Why is it preferable? Because at the end of the day everyone wants to choose one dac or the other. They don’t want to choose one for female vocals, another for jazz, and a third for metal. But nevertheless they want to be able to aggregate all videos in making their final decision of one or the other BEFORE WC tells us what they were.
If they don’t know that there is consistency across videos, they cannot aggregate videos in coming to a final conclusion before the reveal.
They’ll still decide individually on each of 3 videos, but only way to come to a final conclusion before the reveal based on all 3 videos is to know there was consistency across the videos
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I was surprised how easy it was for me to pick a winner. I figured with excellent reputation of both brands that I’d really like both and have a hard time differentiating. But it wasn’t hard to decide. #1 sounds veiled by comparison, to me anyway. Listened carefully all way through twice, and #2 easy winner for me.
This is timely because my next system (which is albeit down the road a ways) could well be Sasha DAW with Bartok or Discrete streamer/dac (and probably ARC or Luxman electronics, or Colleseum), and I have absolutely no preference as to the DACs into this shootout, so I can’t wait to find out which is which on this shootout.
(no that’s not pressuring for reveal, I want the secrecy for the final two rounds to see if I still prefer #2) |
I thought almost everything better with #2. Cymbal crash at end of song 1, crowd noises, bass definition, mallets on the percussion instruments (can't remember what those bars are called - sounded jumbled on #1, clear on #2), just liked almost everything about #2 better |
In answer to WC, both are correct. Personal preference, whatever one likes better. These are two mainstream components, both of high regard, so no wrong answers.
Now if you had a third choice that was bright as hell and sounded like sh**t, that third option would probably only get one very enthusiastic vote (and demo #1 one less vote). |
Listened again.
Bass is muddy in demo #1, song 1. Marimba or vibraphone in song 2 is muddy/jumbled with demo #1, clean and clear with demo #2.
Demo #2 sounds like I’m sitting right in the middle of the performance.
Demo #1 sounds like the performance is playing around the corner in another room, through an open door.
I’ll take demo #2, final answer, as to first video.
I'll predict that demo #1 is msb; demo #2 is dcs. |
I don’t think anyone really knows which video is which for sure.
I have deduced that WC prefers dcs to msb by stuff he has said on videos or written.
And usually our tastes are similar, so since I find #2 so much better than #1, it leads me to think #2 may be dcs.
All that said, if #2 is msb that won’t bother me at all. I’ll simply be happy to know which I prefer.
I’m actually kinda hoping #2 is msb because the msb discrete dac is less expensive than dcs Bartok.
On other hand if msb reference beats the much less expensive Rossini maybe that doesn’t tell me as much as if Rossini beats Bartok (which would be a more definitive statement on preferred house sound given the big msrp difference) - ie if Rossini at half price beats reference that’s a safer leap for me to assume I’ll prefer Bartok to discrete. Will try to compare them directly of course, but this great starting point |
