I mean, it’s your show/thread so you make the rules. Just offering a different perspective, devil’s advocate view you could say
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Showing 50 responses by kren0006
I saw a video of Chris Stapleton and Justin Timberlake doing Stapleton’s "Tennessee Whiskey" as a duet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IE59kDK1bA To me the Wilson Alexx is Stapleton and the Magico M6 is Timberlake. Different sounds - both talented. One more authoritarian, one more dainty (not meant in a pejorative sense, but in a less muscular but perhaps nimbler sense). It’s actually maybe similar to that restaurant analogy I made in comparing the Focal/Magico/Wilson, where here at least the Magico isn’t schitzo like the last one was but is polite like the Focal - to me anyway. I like Alexx/Stapleton of the two choices. Personal preference. Just listened to the latest vid. Sounds good. I think the tubes will sound better though with M6. Still working towards that balance I think. Even with the so-called "warmer" Gryphon (as it pertains to its spot in Gryphon lineup, warmest of the three Meph, Const, Antill), I’m not sure it could get me to the happy place with M6. Don’t mistake this as ripping on the presentation - I just think room for more improvement with tubes or slightly warmer amp as better match with M6. Looking forward to the tubes. ymmv |
Still nobody on this thread watching or caring about those vids on p 302.......those are crickets chirping, Mr. V, yet every page or so you beg people to listen, oh well, keep wishing for it I guess. My kids keep asking for a puppy. Hope springs eternal!!! With the latest reveal yesterday, I think I just need to stop predicting because I haven’t gotten one right in a long time <sigh>. Well unless the tubes in 4 weeks thing turns out to be VAC, then that wouldn’t be bad. Not that anyone else had Antillion (or whatever its called) either, but still, .... |
Nah, I’ve heard it before and not impressed, like others have commented, and that’s okay. But I’m glad you enjoy it. Like everyone else here on this thread, I’m focused on WC’s journey, although I wish I hadn’t lost the golden touch in calling his next move. Darn it. Speaking of WC’s journey, in contrast to Inna, i thought the Gryphon Antileon was better than the Soulution. |
WC, do you have a preference in general as to SQ between Tidal and Qobuz? Anything general you can say about how they compare as far as generalized impressions over all of the various gear you’ve had? Which of the two is your go-to for streaming most often, independent of the gear in your room at the given moment? |
Actually, Viber, WC does not pursue anything he is able to do financially, which apparently is almost limitless based on what comes through the room. Rather, as he’s stated many times, he pursues those things he is interested in, that he thinks will sound good and are high quality (he doesn’t buy crap), and that he judges will have a resale market (that somebody else will actually want to purchase without losing his shirt) because he never keeps anything long term. WC could buy the GTA at the drop of a hat - chickenfeed compared to what he spends on other gear - but he has stated that when he is tired of them in a week (or two, whatever) and wants to move them, that he is worried nobody will want to buy them, a similar concern he had expressed with Tekton speakers. By contrast, he did not have that same concern with two Magnepan speakers or a Martin Logan speaker in the last four months for comparison sake, and AFAIK purchased those speakers. And he concluded that the Maggie 20.7 was the best speaker he’s had under $20k, if memory serves. Anyway, looks like you found one other person who liked the video, but who is also unwilling to buy them and went another direction. Last you mentioned, you also had not purchased them either (nothing wrong with that). If you must know my thoughts (you asked), I ranked the GTA behind the Maggie 20.7 and the Tekton, but just ahead of the Martin Logan speakers that WC had in his room and also ahead of the Maggie 3.7i, to extent I was able to compare across the videos. So it’s not a speaker I have any interest in purchasing, like WC, or even of hearing more of, but again, I’m glad that you enjoy them (if only by video or demo, not by ownership for whatever reason). Best regards, |
Depends how you look at it. Some would say the speakers first and then the source second and finally amp/pre third with cables/ conditioner fourth in that order have most impact on sound quality. If that’s correct, then I’d say WC is building this system according to plan. It’s all relative. He pulled his speakers from nearly the top shelf. He pulled the dac maybe from the same shelf or one below, and so far he pulled the amp/pre from a shelf several down, with better amps coming. What’s not to like, other than he should have stuck with Wilson Audio? oh relax I’m kidding about the Wilson, well kinda |
The point is that WC is probably on the way with this system build to a half million dollar system. When you look at it that way, I’d say he’s spending in the correct proportions so far with speakers and dac (given that’s he’s digital only). Many of us are playing an order of magnitude or more below these levels, but as I’m building out my 50-60k system I’m thinking about the proportions the same way, just as I did when I built out my 5-6k office third system, two orders of magnitude below what WC is doing |
Hmm, I’m not so sure he would love that. Hands on maybe but also pretty much instant gratification or move on - basically opposite of what is required with vinyl tinkering. I’d like to see him give it a go as well, but I wouldn’t say that it will be something he will necessarily take to like a fish to water. But maybe as he gets older he will grow into it : ) Kinda like assuming someone who loves wrenching on high performance cars would be a perfect candidate to build model railroad setups. Maybe, but probably not much of a correlation. Anyway, my long-ago prediction for the WC/vinyl seance was the year 2022. Unfortunately, if it happens in 2022 I predict it will be over by 2023, lol. I think this msb vs dcs shootout will be kickass though. Probably the best shootout he has ever done. hopefully the dcs won't be sold and he'll keep both around for awhile so the shootout won't be one and done but will have some depth and context |
I suspect what might happen here is that the msb reference will be better than the dcs rossini, but not so much that it completely blows it away. This will make WC wonder again about Vivaldi, so Rossini will be sold and Vivaldi will come back to face off with Reference. And WC will declare Vivaldi the winner -- check that, he probably won’t declare a straight-up winner (rarely does) -- but Vivaldi will be what he keeps. That takes us to Labor day. Especially once those VAC tubes that I’ve been predicting arrive in a month, dcs will be the better pairing there vs msb, though msb will probably prevail with the Gryphon and likely sound damn good in its own right. AlexxV by Halloween. M6 gone by 4th. Ahh, It’s just all so clear and easy to project ...... lol |
msb looks kind of cheap and ordinary sitting next to dcs. Not very impressive aesthetically, fwiw. Won’t matter I guess if it sounds better, but for $83k put some effort into the appearance! Maybe it looks better when powered up. As it is kinda looks like three old cableTV boxes stacked on top of one another.......hey, flip over to MTV, I think Real World is on now....... |
greyhound, I’m not sure that I can direct you to anything specific without a lot of legwork that I don’t have time for. You could search the posts of Mike lavigne (hope I spelled that correctly) as he has often commented on his (and all who have compared the two in his system) preference for vinyl over digital - he’s got analog and digital systems well into the six figures at least. Anyway like I said, I don’t have an opinion but many have VERY strong opinions on it and I was just conveying what I perceived to be the consensus. I won’t argue with you on it if you feel differently. My impression from what I’ve read often on A’gon (though I can’t cite where) is that those who’ve done the comparisons feel that to get analog to sound better you need to spend over $5-10k (somewhere in there) on TT/cart/arm/phonopre/etc for it to beat a 5-10k dac/ streamer. It’s all subjective of course. Maybe it comes down to one’s definition of budget system (and on this thread that REALLY gets skewed) |
In contrast to what Viber suggests in last post, prevailing wisdom on A’gon seems to be that it is much easier to get stellar digital performance for value expenditure than it is for analog, mostly because dacs/streaming have come so far recently that a couple grand or less will get you very good digital performance. Personally I don’t have an opinion on it bc like WC I don’t use vinyl, just recounting what I perceive to be the conventional wisdom of the moment. I think prevailing wisdom is still that a cost no object vinyl system will prevail over cost no object digital (mike lavigne for one who has systems that are multiples of what WC doing here says this) but the crossover point where vinyl takes over isn’t at the budget builds l don’t think, in contrast to what stated above. Anyway, there’s another long term investigative project for you WC: determine once and for all where that crossover point is that vinyl overtakes digital. Kinda like the question I asked Suncoast on where the crossover point from integrateds to separates is |
Poor Gryphon Antileon. Mephisto and 2150 score 97 and 98 respectively on the back of Wilson Alexx, while Antileon will be left out to dry with M6.......feel sorry for the warmer Gryphon : ) (joking kinda, but it’s probably not a coincidence that those amps scored the best on Wilson. - very expensive amps (Block, XS, CH, others) on lesser speakers scored lower I believe) |
Turntables eventually would be nice but there really is so much ground to cover in streamers/DACs that WC hasn’t even set foot in yet. Lots of high-end options out there that he hasn’t tried. That’s why this MSB/DCS shootout will be so cool as a starting point. When you think about it, WC has been DCS-exclusive since way back to some Esoteric CD player if memory serves, and that feels like about four score and seven years ago. So I think if WC chooses to be more open about comparing hi-end dacs there is plenty of real estate to cover. He might wait for TT’s until he gets to 50 years old, haha |
Haha, no I wish. I just like them. A lot of what I say is tongue in cheek. (But psst, WC likes Wilson even more than I do — he just can’t really say it now while the M6 are in the house. But how many vids has he posted in 3-4 weeks of M6?? Not many compared to when he had Wilson and every other day was raving about them) in some ways it’s like WC going out of his way to show every video but M6 (Suncoast, 2150 review, ...., he got 175k speakers in the room need to hear more of them than we have. It’s been nearly a month oh and difference between this and Viber/Rane is WC has had 6 (count em) Wilson’s in his room or earlier room (he just said that in recent vid). The stuff V talks most about including what you mentioned and the speakers I’ll not mention so as to avoid controversy have never been owned by WC- big difference. That said he’s doing much better so don’t try to start anything between us : ) |
So that we can orient ourselves in advance of this DAC shootout to better understand which hi-end DACs you’ve owned WC to frame your comments in light of past ownership, you obviously have Rossini now, and most recently had Vivaldi. Others I recall are only three. An Esoteric cd player that you really liked and I think you’ve mentioned some Lampizator and Chord Dave. I’m sure I’m forgetting others but it’s been so long. What else have you had at the 5-figure level or above that might be relevant for comparison purposes? |
Walter will you use sub(s) or just the 704’s ? in regards to your choice of 866, did you compare it with any other integrateds and if so which? edit: oh maybe you only bought the 704’s and not also the 866. Not clear from post (depends whether your use of “them” meant speakers only or also amp demo’d) but I assumed both initially but on second read you maybe meant just speakers..... |
Supportive of the evolution in track presentation, especially if WC is sick of the older stuff. An observation on the presentation, using a Florida college football analogy. Lots of differences in system here from previous, that is inevitable and needed for the channel so we do the best we can to draw conclusions knowing that the comparisons are not ideally drawn with one-for-one change. But here we have same amp/preamp brand, and a much more expensive DAC of high repute, so natural to focus on speaker differences. How I’d characterize it is that the Alexx and M6 in the treble, which I’ll compare to football skill positions, both have UF or FL St. WR/RB/QB level play going on. Both sound great. In the midrange, which I’ll compare to football defense, the most important part of music and IMO successful football, again, both the Alexx and M6 have UF or FL St. level play going on. Both great. But in the bass, which I’ll compare to football offensive line, the Alexx has a UF or FL St. size and skill offensive line, but the M6 trots out the Florida Atlantic offensive line (no disrespect to Fl Atlantic). It’s a different level of muscle, size and skill. My opinion only. The track didn’t include a lot of bass, I get that. Take not only based on this one video, and maybe later tracks will prove me wrong and obviously I’m not in room. Take it FWIW after I listened to one 4 minute video, which is to say take it for being worth almost zero. |
I kinda think the MSB dac and Audio Research 160M’s are the best the Magico M6’s have sounded so far of the combinations you’ve tried, better than Gryphon Antilleon, even without a preamp. Actually beginning to sound like the M6 have a little better lower end authority - maybe finally breaking in fully?? I think last time you had ARC 160M you actually preferred the stereo version 160S better. Interested to hear what you think WC |
Hmm, might be a bad guess though since WC hated Boulder 2060 and 3060 old like 2060 and probably more of same. So that’s probably not correct after all. My original guess was D’Ag Relentless but I think that only monoblocks and WC said stereo amp, so don’t think that can be it. Maybe Gryphon Apex if it is out |
Haha, what I meant is I still read the thread and if someone mentions me I'll probably respond, but as far as the videos go I haven't been paying as much attention, and the videos are where WC gives the biggest hints about what is coming, not on the thread, IME. So yeah, that's what I meant. Why haven't I been paying as close attention to the vids? I dunno. Maybe not as into these speakers? Just a personal thing - others will like them better and that's normal. Not a criticism just so no confusion - just personal preference. |
"do we REALLY want to hear this "bite, brightness" found in real live performances ? No, we don’t. If it sounds terrible live, I want to leave, just like a bad movie. My time is more valuable than that. Why would I want that same poor sounding experience in my home, even if it sounds exactly the same as the poor sounding live experience? With a live poor-sounding performance you might put up with it bc the ambience or whatever else is fun and it makes the crappy sound survivable, but at home.....why?? You don’t purchase terrible tasting food just because it’s pure or clean or neutral or whatever - well some probably do and they can have it. No thanks. Plenty of great tasting food that is very healthy. Back to sound, the only thing I care about it that it to sounds excellent to me -- that’s all that matters, the rest is just criers screaming from the mountaintop, alone and deservedly so (and if that’s their deal - more power to them, glad they enjoy that - just stay away and enjoy your poor sounding system (to me) that you think is neutral but you admit can only be tolerated at low volumes, and I’ll do the same with the sound that I like). Here’s the thing. It either sounds good to you or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t, don’t try to convince yourself that it should and maybe there’s something wrong with you because you don’t appreciate the purity - ha, just go with what you know to be true, it sounds like $&#*$! Simple enough, don’t tie yourself up in knots. Everyone hears differently so for some it may sound good to them, or they may be tricking themselves because they think they want purity - doesn’t matter, that’s their choice and as long as they’re happy, so be it -- but only you know whether or not it sounds good to you |
WC has played many songs on his YT channel. Not one has been “unamplified.” Neither has he played clips of horns honking, baseball bats or golf clubs impacting, or construction noise. Apparently those things aren’t what he likes to listen to - imagine that? Guess what? He’s in the vast majority. Systems that cannot play real music at realisticly loud levels have no place in WC’s room, and therefore by extension have no place on this thread—-on another thread, give it a shot and see how many tune in. good job yy. Your last thought about doubting that anyone would care about that tired line of argument was bang on, I suspect. Even if one or two are interested, they are likely aware enough by now that this thread is not the place for it, because WC has no interest in that style of music, as he’s repeatedly explained. He listens loud. He doesn’t listen to violins |
Actually, according to WC, I am not missing the point at all. His first response to my post was - "No argument from [WC]." And others (ron17 publicly, dm’s i got) chimed in with support as well. You try to steer it back to your view of the world, but then get kindly told to take it off line (by yysantabarbara in this case; by WC countless other times throughout thread history). We all know your preferences (clarity only thing that matters even if ear-splitting brightness, zero or minimal bass okay, no problem if can’t play above 65 db without listening fatigue or hurting ears), and that’s fine if that is what you like. But it is a fringe minority view that doesn’t align with WC’s ("no argument from [WC]") or most audiophiles’, so it gets tiresome to keep re-reading about it when you keep pushing it endlessly. This isn’t an attack, it’s a "Read the Room" suggestion. I know some really like when I go after you (they tell me that), but I don’t enjoy doing it, so it’s just a gentle suggestion. |
You should refrain from name calling first - that is disrespectful and not nice. I have refuted everything you’ve said. You represent a minority fringe view that WC and most audiophiles reject because it is unacceptable to most to have to only listen quietly, without the ability to play loud lest ear fatigue setting in due to system deficiency. No wonder you prefer violin music, because nobody would want to play that loud anyway. No offense to my violin playing friends (but tbh each time I had to sit thru one of their recitals I was bored to death - too bad smartphones weren’t yet invented by then so I could have discretely tuned out like all the folks in the restaurant analogy subjected to violin) |
In all seriousness, room treatments would be really interesting - especially if you share the options you considered and why you ended up choosing whatever you settle on (or cycle through) Don’t remember if Rhodium outlets and cable connectors ever contemplated on this thread but that might be another interesting experiment |
WC, Good reminder in last video that a preamp ALWAYS sounds better than dac-direct at audiophile levels of equipment. Hopefully the deniers will learn that based on your extensive experience and won’t pine for you to do dac-direct. You could not have been more clear on how wrong the preamp deniers are, based on your extensive experience |
Right. I mean, you’ve owned most of the dacs worth owning up to the $80k USD level, and that is your definitive conclusion that having a good preamp is always better, even with dacs up to that level, so that is a pretty unambiguous statement on your part based on your vast experience. Just good to get it on record. |
Jay said a dac doesn’t exist that he’s heard that is better dac-direct than with a good preamp. Ever, in all of his trials - listen to the video and read his comments above. And he agreed with my statement above that for BEST SONIC RESULTS (not some fringe subset of sonic results), preamp wins every time. Every time - not sometimes - every time. Case closed according to WC. (I notice he did not agree with your characterization, Viber). WC has the experience, Viber, you do not (though your fringe sonic views are absolutely correct for you, I don’t doubt that - I truly believe you when you say you find that type of presentation best, and granted everyone hears differently). It’s just that most people (nearly everyone) need to be able to listen to music loudly from time to time. |
I mean, it doesn’t really matter why Viber prefers the fringe, minority-view presentation that he does. Could be hearing loss but lot of assumptions in that post, so who really knows? Perhaps his hearing is better than all of ours? IDK. I’m in that age range that Ron mentioned, but I’m sure there are plenty of people much older than me who might have better hearing than I do (although I have no hearing issues that I’m aware of). Doesn’t really matter. What matters is that Viber's is not a prevailing view and almost everyone would disagree with it, yet sometimes (often) he tries to present it as mainstream, or as his wish for mainstream. Important to keep in mind that it is not, even if it is the correct presentation for him, whatever the reason. |