dguitarnut,
The Rane is never the twain to be forgotten, as I "splain" it. |
The Dag preamp/amp combo is outstanding. I went back to the video of the same song with the ARC ref 6E or Lux C900u preamps with the Lux M900u amp. The Dag combo is far more focused and detailed than the Lux combo. The recording is schizophrenic with the voice raspy and raw, while the piano is mushy and veiled. The Dag is still coherent, while much more palpable, immediate and transparent. Many people will want to get rid of the raspy voice quality by rolling off HF, using mushy tube electronics and smoothed over cables like Cardas. However, the raspiness will still be apparent, and the piano will turn into a lake of whipped cream. You just have to accept the recording for what it is, don't play it too loud, and enjoy the bulk of its content most with the pristine and coherent clarity of the Dag.
On the previous video, we heard the superior clarity of the Dag preamp compared to Ayre and Lux preamps. Now, the total clarity has been enhanced by the Dag amp. This is NOT synergy--it just is the fact that each piece is detailed by itself, and the additive detail with transparency is wonderful. Right now, the 2 best amps you have are the Dag and Gryphon, so do a video using the best preamp, Dag, with the Dag and Gryphon amps. You will want to make a decision as to which amp, Dag or Gryphon is best. The Lux combo is for the whipped creamers, so don't confuse the clarity issue by using a whipped cream preamp (Lux) with a detailed/coherent amp (Gryphon) vs the whole Dag combo. The whole Dag combo will win in every important way, but I cannot foresee whether the Dag combo will beat the Dag preamp + Gryphon. If the Dag + Gryphon beats the Dag combo for clarity, then you will know that using the same brand of preamp + amp is less important than finding the most revealing of each component, unless you deliberately like to introduce whipped cream and call it synergy nirvana.
|
spinaker01 and 4425,
If you can’t see the value of my posts, that is your loss. If you mock my recommendations of cheap stuff like zip cord, Emotiva, Rane, that just shows your closed mind. One day, WC will realize that a lot of high end audio is about overpriced, underperforming stuff. His experience of Plinius beating Dag is a welcome beginning. I am sympathetic to the demands of his family life with the financial constraints, so my suggestions of alternative equipment is very relevant here, and I know he values my input.
Drivel? CERTAINLY NOT! Show some RESPECT! Rodney Dangerfield was wise.
|
techno_dude,
Ignore those personal criticisms, and just get the great high value stuff I suggested above. We agree that an audio system should have exciting sound. In addition, either no.18 plain zip cord or the thin wires of Mapleshade would create more excitement. I will probably try the Double Helix 8 foot pair at $365. You could get a nice price for your Mac preamp and come out way ahead on the road to exciting sound. Try an Emotiva, and you will probably report how fantastic it is. Let's see how it competes against your Lux M900u. It will probably be a good fight. I would go for the XPA 2 gen 3 at only $1000 retail, since that's the one I heard at home for 30 days and almost bought. It has plenty of power. You don't need to chase the higher powered DR reference, since there is the risk that the higher power amp might sacrifice clarity at reasonable volume levels.
|
Mrdecibel,
Now you are being nasty, as you were with techno_dude. Number 1, any consultant should be mindful of a client's finances in recommending items. Financial advisors often steer clients into investments they have a personal business relationship with, so they are not necessarily acting in the client's interest. In high end audio, the equipment is largely overpriced with mediocre performance for the money. We agree on that. Although I was never a professional audio consultant, I do a better job pointing out high performance values than most people here. Second, I wonder how much experience you have in classical music, which is my area of expertise. Although I was never a professional musician, my knowledge and experience in listening is second to none. How dare you criticize that? Your comments about my use of the Rane to get an amp to sound like another illustrates your ignorance of how EQ can be flexibly used for many goals. As for subjective whims and preferences, anyone is entitled to that. But all within the context of a semblance to the real thing. That is the philosophical difference between the listening of the general public mid/low fi where whims rule, and the high end audiophile who is trying to get a system to sound like the real thing. Yes, we are all trying to please ourselves individually, but pleasure should be in the context of reverence for the real thing. My listening is not confined to prestigious concert halls, and sometimes the most informative listening takes place in unusual circumstances, like hearing a performer on the subway platform when there is no noise from trains running. You can hear the different sounds as you walk from far away to near. The sound is so pure and clear, that anyone who then advocates for laid back rolled off and veiled sound is just living in a dream world. That is not God speaking, that is just from an honest man who points out the obvious truth to anyone willing to be an honest listener.
Several people here appreciate and enjoy my posts, even if you no longer do. I am not here to please you. Get used to that, although when you make sense, I will give you credit.
|
WC,
Just as I suspected about the Block. If your initial listening impressions are confirmed tomorrow, full and rounded mids means that HF are psychoacoustically rolled off as the midrange takes prominence. Probably similar in character to ARC tube amps that are powerful. The roundness might synergize with the Magico for your tastes, but the Neo needs some brightness/brilliance coming from the electronics, so either of the Emotivas or any of the Pliniuses would create better synergy with the Neo. Thanks to ron17 for recommending the other Plinius amps, although they are still much more expensive than the top Emotivas. On the road to your recovery from the "audio moneyitis" illness, the Emotivas could be the final destination and the best cure for that illness.
|
ricred1,
You're generally right about these things. "Overpriced" is a relative term which implies that there is some much cheaper item that performs as well or better than the expensive one, according to whatever criteria you use. Of course, there is no absolute number for what overpriced means. To Bill Gates, $500 million for a house that has similar features to his $50 million (a guess) home is overpriced. The fact that he can afford $500 million is not the point. Even he discriminates value for his money. There are too many charities and other great things he could think of, so even he doesn't have enough money for all the good things he could imagine doing with his money. As for me, I start getting critical of an amp costing over $10,000. I think my Mytek at $2000 has great value for the sound, but probably not at $10,000 where there are competitors, although I have heard a few of them that don't offer the level of performance of the Mytek. Regardless of money, technology is advancing so that I think it is not prudent to buy the flagship of anything. For example, I am eagerly awaiting the Merrill Elements. The flagship 118 at $36K is not the same value as the $22K model 116, which still has high power and probably 99% of the performance. The $9-12K model 114 will be lower power which may be a drawback for some, but if it has 98% of the performance in quality as the flagship, that is great value. Other designers will be using the GaN devices, so there will be competition, creating more value for everyone.
|
dep14,
Excellent posts about how your priorities determine the best speaker for you. If I listened to more rock than classical, I would totally agree that my choices would match yours. That is not God speaking, but just an acknowledgement that you make logical sense in both your priorities and knowledge of sound.
|
+10 for kahlenz's post and also the acknowledgement of that by ron17.
|
RIAA,
You are generally ignorant of, and refuse to acknowledge, the reality of general house sound. For example, a mellow tube amp will not make any speaker sound brighter and faster than a fast Boulder amp driving that same speaker. That applies no matter whether the speaker is a warm Sonus Faber or my fast, articulate electrostatic. Why don't YOU put up the money and see whether the Plinius has more sparkle than the Dag for different speakers, or whether it is not true for another speaker, instead of making your own pontificating accusations.
Yes, compatibility has to always be taken into account for final assessment, but the previous paragraph is generally true. Stop your emotional criticisms of personal character. Compared to you, my analyses are in-depth and objective, without inappropriate personal attacks which only serve to take away from the validity of whatever is said.
|
mikepaul,
If the Elements at over $10K are significantly superior to my $2K Mytek, I will happily spend the money. I can certainly afford the $38K flagship Element 118, but if the $12K model 114 is 98% as good, which is implied by the statements of the designer, Merrill W., I will go for the 114. I suspect that Bill Gates spends his money prudently, with relative value of all his life activities in mind and in perspective, probably more prudently than the typical audiophile.
|
OK, my book here is now ending, except I will occasionally offer a brief thanks to anyone presenting interesting info in a dignified manner. I apologize if I have offended anyone disagreeing with me, but even in those cases valid points were made. I have learned from all of you, and I wish everyone well on their own personal audio journeys. For anyone who wishes to communicate with me, I welcome your emails, russlaud at gmail. I won't post anywhere else. Thanks and good luck. |
Although the video sound quality is inferior to WC's actual system heard in his room, it is good enough to form comparative judgments, so the truth is that I have HEARD these components. And WC's findings about objective sound characteristics match my own, but he is still in a quandary about what he values most--clarity, or sweet sound. He recognizes the superior clarity of the Dag preamp, but chose the Lux based on its sweet sound. But many times he says that clarity is a high priority for him. It is evident that he loves the Dag combo in the most recent video. Based on that, my last post is simply an objective guide if he wants to prioritize clarity.
|
According to reviews, the series 2 of the entire Nordost line is more mellow than the series 1. WC said that the Odin 1 had more HF than the Odin 2 (I forgot which cable or power cord he was referring to), although he preferred the Odin 2 overall. So it is a little apples/oranges comparison between the series 2 Valhalla and series 1 Odin.
|
ron17,
Good points. The common understanding of "tube-like" is that it is soft, rolled off in HF, sweet midrange. Ironically, on the video with the Lux M900u amp, I thought the ARC ref 6SE sounded more precise and detailed than the Lux C900u as preamps. I have always heard more precision in ARC tube equipment than other tube equipment such as Conrad Johnson. There are many SS electronics that are designed to have that soft, mellow type sound, and others that are designed to be as neutral and revealing as possible. Same goes for tube electronics. On a spectrum from mellow to precise, the tube spectrum is downshifted to more mellow than the SS spectrum, although the spectra overlap somewhat, with the ARC ref 6SE closer to the precise end than the Lux C900u, at least with my limited listening from the videos. The Lux still seems closer than the Ayre preamp to the precise end. So now I’ve scrapped the phrase "tube like" in favor of "whipped cream" which is better understood. So far, from my listening, the Dag combo and individual preamp seem most precise, with the Lux having some whipped cream, and the Ayre even more whipped cream. But all these assessments are relative, and I am interested to see whether the Dag or the Gryphon amp has some whipped cream compared to the other. We’ll see and hear.
Sure, the videos are not as revealing as the actual sound in WC’s room, but he asks us to listen carefully to get our impressions. This is a fair proposition, since most of us cannot otherwise hear what is happening in his room. It works, if you are willing to listen and concentrate hard.
|
lemonhaze,
Thanks for your last post. I take your valid points to heart. Your posts were interesting, and I have learned from all of you. I shall remember your apt term, and apologize again for being an insultant at times. Nobody is going to audio heaven--we are all just trying to seek meaning and pleasure in our musical and audio pursuits. Peace.
|
WC,
Just curious. Since you just said you like sizzle, how does the Plinius rate against the Block for sizzle and sparkle? I get the impression from you that Block assets are fullness, roundness, dynamics, especially for bass/midrange. Maybe Plinius is more oriented for sizzle/sparkle?
|
bill_k,
I didn’t know that about how class A amps dissipate more power when idling vs playing. What are the technical reasons, and why the opposite is true of Class AB? Thanks.
|
Thanks to everyone for toning down the hate speech. When I say "better" I mean "having more clarity" but sometimes we all want to be less wordy. Or, I have said, "if you value clarity, then X is better than Y" or simply, "X has more clarity than Y." We all enjoy WC's "tell all" descriptions and statement of his values, rather than the wishy washy politically correct writings in magazines, etc. It is good to know WC's stand on things, and what he values. At the same time, WC frequently says, "what do you think, why, and it's OK to have different preferences than my own."
WC says what he prefers, money almost no object, but he offers advice on best for a cheaper price. So I know some people follow him for HIS advice and not MINE, but other people follow him to get advice on best for a modest price. Therefore, I offer my suggestions for people to try very cheap stuff that I am enthused about and have owned. So it is not necessary to start my own thread about Mytek, Benchmark, for there is very little to say, except that they are nearly unbeatable for clarity at any price. There is 95+ % probability of truth to that statement, since I have not heard ALL electronics out there. But I have heard enough over many decades to say this.
The best electronics are very close in sound, and they are all low in distortion. Relatively small differences exist among cables, as well. But all speakers are primitive and have much greater variations in sound and distortion than any electronics. That's why I go for economy for electronics, but expensive speakers are more likely to contribute much better overall system sound than expensive electronics and cables. In fact, at Steve's house with his GTA speaker of years ago, the Pass amp he was using seemed to have neutral sound, but actually the total system sounded that way, since I know that Pass is on the sweet side.
|
WC,
Thanks for your comments about the Plinius vs Block. It appears that the superior overall resolution of the Block outweighs its comparatively less sparkle in HF. Then the Lux preamp with its tone controls to boost the HF sparkle may give you great synergy with the Block. (I found the same synergy with my Mytek amp. It didn't have the same HF sparkle as my Bryston, but in lower freq it had advantages. I just boosted the HF using my EQ so now the Mytek beats the Bryston in everything). Of course, that assumes that without the tone controls, the Lux is as good as the Ref 10 for overall resolution.
|
mrdecibel,
Without being pushy again, I was just itching to help WC decide on the next SS preamp to try with the Block amp. I know he loves the Lux preamp and amp because of their synergy, and I thought the tone controls on the Lux might synergize with the Block also, by giving the HF sparkle that the Block may lack compared to the Plinius. He might not want a stand alone EQ unit, but he definitely noted how the tone controls of the Dag integrated made a big difference for his enjoyment of the Neo. So the tone controls of the Lux preamp might be useful as well for him, but only if the basic circuit of the Lux preamp is as transparent as the ARC Ref 10.
Refer to a recent excellent post by 4425 on the subject of why tone controls are so important, from his 40 year experience, also his new post just above.
|
thezaks,
Grammatically you are correct--"the best example of overpriced.." This reminds me of when an educated friend said to me, "I don't want no part of this nonsense." We both knew the error, but just laughed at the need to emphasize the negative many times. So thanks for laughing at me.
|
RIAA,
Good interesting points you make. I am always interested in what people in the trenches think, but I believe it is more meaningful to say what sonic characteristics the people are referring to, rather than to say that X beats Y. What does "beats" mean? Recently, in Audio Advisor, someone commented on the new Bryston 2.5B cubed he happily bought. He likes warmish sound, and found this Bryston to be warmer than both the Mytek Brooklyn Amp that I own and like and the NAD M22 that I also heard. Since my taste is the opposite, he and I would disagree about whether this Bryston "beats" these other amps, but I value his honest detailed description of his findings because it has saved me from making another mistake of trying that Bryston.
|
I would be careful not to try to explain the superb bass of the Block/Neo on just 1 criterion--damping factor. High damping factor is found in any design with lots of negative feedback. Many cheap, crummy amps have high damping factor which may give power/tightness, but what about resolution? High current capability is also good, but we don't understand all the factors why an amp will have great resolution and power. Yet the Block seems to have superb resolution and overall sound quality throughout the entire freq range, and probably excellent bass definition at low levels as well as high levels. Although WC values high power and dynamics, he seems to single out these aspects for bass, whereas other listeners might value the Block for its full freq range excellence at all volume levels. Also, many owners of other stats who are satisfied with somewhat lower volume levels find that many amps work well. This is probably true for the few other owners of Neos, but we haven't heard from them. But if you want to make many stats have full dynamics like many conventional dynamic or even horn speakers, very few amps will qualify.
|
mrdecibel,
You are in a nice position to appreciate the inherent lower distortion of low power amps, because of the high efficiency of your horns. We know about the high power performance of the Block, but how would it fare against high quality lower power amps for soft music, or for any music from horns? You could bring your light Nuforce amps to WC, although they are still fairly high power. Maybe you have top quality lower power amps also to bring. Just listen to the Neo on soft music so all the amps can be on a level playing field. Don't expect WC to lug his big Blocks to your place, but you could easily drive to him with your amps. Don't forget to bring your Luminous to show WC the virtues of ultimate transparency for not so loud music that doesn't require any gain for the relatively inefficient Neo. Being in Florida, you are lucky to enjoy the trip in nice weather. Just some suggestions for a nice experience listening with him.
|
WC,
It is interesting how you describe tasting each Hz in the bass. It is very difficult to hear distinctions in bass notes even live. The lowest note on the piano is A at 27.5 Hz. Very few pianos are adjusted well enough to properly hear the distinct tone at 27.5 Hz. With the average piano, the lowest notes are like a thud. But 4 octaves higher, at 440 Hz, is the A which all musicians use for tuning their instruments. This is very easy to hear, which is one reason why the midrange is the most important attribute of all music. Of course, all freq are important, so how is the resolution of the Block in midrange/HF? If the HF sparkle is not as much as the Plinius, is the HF resolution of the Block better to compensate for this? |
Techno_dude,
Right. For the most purity, I feel that the best shootout would be DCS + Gryphon vs DCS + Dag amp, no preamp at all. It will still be interesting to compare the whole Dag combo + DCS to just Dag amp + DCS, since WC is tempted to sell off all the preamps, and put the money into other speakers and sources. I was impressed by the Dag combo, but I feel eliminating even the superb Dag preamp will be even better for clarity. On another video, the Lux amp without the Lux preamp was way better for clarity than the Lux combo. |
gammonit_2000,
The Bryston 7B SST2 is a reasonable choice for the price used. But be careful--it should be auditioned at home to make sure it is what you want. I heard the 4B SST2 at home, and it was much darker (warmer, but words are imprecise) and rolled off in HF compared to my wonderful 2.5B SST2. My first amp was the 4B in 1978. Great HF/bass but opaque mids. More recently, I heard the 3B SST--it was very dark and opaque in mids/HF. Don't listen to the company who says that all amps in the same series sound the same, except for the power difference. Like you, I want transparent and neutral. My new $2K Mytek Brooklyn Amp fits the bill while I await the new Merrill Elements. The Element 114 at $9-12K should have extraordinary value for the SOTA neutral/transparent sound if the listening verifies the reviews. We don't know how much power it will have. If you really want lots of power, the Element 116 has 300W into 8, 600 into 4, 1200 into 2. At $22k, it is worth saving for, assuming the sound truly is what people are saying. I hope you can be as patient as I am, because I will be getting either the 114 or 116 and will spill the beans here about what I think, probably in early or mid 2019.
|
WC,
Reviews state that the MF Titan is warmish. I know you are curious about the powerful Boulder. Although you found it sterile on your other speakers, with the warmer Neo it might be good synergy. If you want high power, full range neutrality and control, I would guess the SAE 2 HP would also be a top contender. At $16K retail without meters, there is little risk in case you want to sell it. Of course, you have heard the ATI multichannel amps which are downscale budget versions of the SAE. I know you found the HF fatiguing, but that was true only at high volumes. Let's assume an amp is totally revealing and accurate to live sound. At natural volumes, the amp and the live sound are exciting and not fatiguing, but at unnaturally high volumes, both the amp and the live sound are fatiguing. I think you and I crave excitement, which such an amp would reveal at natural volumes, with no need to blast it to get the excitement. I had the Classe D200--despite blasting it, I couldn't get the excitement on cymbal crashes because the amp was too warm in overall character. Tell us how all these great amps do on cymbal crashes. According to James Boyk, cymbals are wide ranging with output to 200 Khz.
|
WC,
I'll add the Mola Mola Kaluga at $16.5K as a powerhouse top class D. In my system, it was very neutral, extended in HF with smoothness. At the time I didn't want to spend the money, but after following your journey, I am graduating into the next money level although not in your top class.
|
speedbump6,
Yes, I have thought about direct wiring to the brain. The conductor on stage who has the best pickup of the live event could have electrodes attached to his brain to make a recording, then playback could transmit the skull recordings to his internal brain. But this recording if applied to another person's skull probably would generate different brain waves and may not produce high fidelity to the sound. A better but more invasive approach would use implanted electrodes into the auditory part of the brain. Play back the recording using the already implanted electrodes to accurately recreate the music perceptions in the brain.
This applies to nonmusical experiences as well. Make a recording of your love making sensations at age 16, play it back 50 years later to truly experience what you did at the young age. Even WC in his 30's would probably lament that things are not quite as exciting as they were 20 years ago.
Someday this will be possible, if enough people really care about sound. At present, deep brain stimulation is an accepted treatment to improve symptoms for Parkinson's disease.
|
Mrdecibel,
No, your posts are always informative. I always enjoy reading someone's strongly held views backed up by knowledge and experience, rather than wishy-washy BS from the tainted media. Keep contributing here. Many will appreciate it, even if not everyone. |
Hello Guido--thanks for your exciting post about the new Rowland 535. If the HF of the 535 is as open/resolved as the 925, and the 535 is coherent, that suggests that the rest of the freq range is comparably open/resolved as the 925. In any case, for sound quality you think $46K would be a fair price for the 535, but at $12K/pr it is a best buy. Probably a single stereo 535 for $6K will be about as good within its still large power range, and that makes it incredible as a SOTA contender for that money, a best best buy. I hope you can arrange an extended audition with break in for the Merrill Element 114, which will be priced about $9-12K. Merrill says the 114 is very close in sound quality to the 118/116. It may not have as much power as the Rowland 535, but that would be a great shootout for 2 great SOTA contenders at a reasonable price which everyone should be interested in. Merrill may not want to tie up the expensive 118/116 for such an extended audition, but he might be agreeable to lending the 114 for that, or at least let you try a fully broken in 114 to compare to the 535 for a week or so. From your comments, it seems like Rowland has a somewhat rich but not euphonic sound. My experience with the Mola Mola Kaluga at home is that it is a cool/neutral but still smooth sound. Boston Symphony Hall has a cooler sound than Carnegie Hall, in part because Boston SH has no carpeting or plush seats like Carnegie which softens the sound there. Boston SH is like Mola Mola, and perhaps Rowland is like Carnegie. Correct me if I am wrong. Also, it seems like the 535 is not class D, just light due to the switched mode power supply. I am looking forward to your comments on the 535 used in stereo. Thanks so much. |
bill_k,
This reminds me of the Kii powered speaker which uses internal modules from Bruno Putzeys of Mola Mola to power each driver, with DSP integration. All you need is a source. For $15K, the Kii speaker was very good, but a midsized YG speaker was better. I heard all this at Bill Parish's house in NJ, GTT Audio.
|
WC,
Of course, the brute force of the 4 MBL's will make that system sound more dynamic than the Essence. However, on that simple selection we heard, the Essence was just beautiful and great. I am talking about the ability of a quality amp to provide nuance/detail/clarity at low levels. Even if you find that the 4 MBL's can blast a certain piece of music, when that music has moments of delicacy, you will get nothing but a headache from the blaring loudness and also be disappointed that the amp monsters may fall short in low level detail. So if you get around to doing the A/B of the Essence and MBL, bring the same pieces you are doing for the videos, which are at moderate to low SPL's. You also said that for careful listening, you test at SPL's in the 80's.
|
techno_dude, hilarious!!!
|
WC, how do I view your pictures? Merry Christmas. I like your merry sentiments.
ron17, Bill Parish is such a gentleman. Did you listen to the Mola Mola Kaluga amps in his home or yours? What is your reference amp? Guido is enthusiastic about the Rowland 535. At $6K it seems a best buy for a SOTA contender. WC may also be interested, since it probably has good resale value, although for my purposes if it is such a value, I would keep it. |
ron17,
Bill Parish has a beautiful home in a nice semi-rural area of NJ. Several rooms with different size YG speakers. The huge room has the flagship Sonja XV. I didn't hear it because I didn't want to impose on him. A few years ago, a dozen or more hot shot reviewers came to hear the big one and wrote it up. Many people work from home, but imagine having all your goodies at your workplace. I couldn't get any work done between client visits. I saw people coming in from a distance, although I don't know about from LA. You would have fun making the trip. At the time, Bill liked the Audionet better than the Mola Mola Kaluga which sounded a little cool for him, but he thought the MM had the highest accuracy. |
Also, Bill Parish at GTT Audio had the Kii Audio speakers in the basement. These contain several Mola Mola type amplifiers, kinda like the ultimate powered speaker, with sophisticated DSP, including a few EQ curves. All you need is a digital source. Very nice sounding package for $15K including stands, although I thought a small YG speaker was more revealing and natural. He washed an LP for me on his expensive ultrasonic cleaning machine. A very nice touch, better than fortune cookies at a Chinese restaurant. No, I am not his sales assistant--am just showing what a class act he is. |
Guido--excellent question about break in of the Kii system. It didn't occur to me to ask Bill Parish about that at the time, which was long before we started communicating. Bill had the Kii in the nicely finished basement with concrete walls. But one of the YG speakers upstairs was clearly more transparent and natural. I know you have found a large difference in the sound of class D amps from beginning to about 700-1000 hours, but the difference between the YG and the Kii was a qualitatively vast difference like the kind usually experienced between any 2 speakers, so my impression is that this was not a break in type of difference. Still, I cannot be sure, since break in of the Kii would involve the drivers as well as the several internal Hypex Ncore amps inside the speaker, although break in of any speaker involves the drivers and the electronic crossover network. The Kii is still an interesting concept of how much bass dynamics and extension can be coaxed from such a small speaker.
|
mitch2,
I have read your previous comments on other threads about the sound of Mola Mola Kaluga amps, quoting from the Mono and Stereo article. I believe the Audiodrom review tells it like it is. That is, the MMK is accurate, but many audiophiles prefer euphonics. Words like "alive", "glow" are in reality emotional descriptions of these euphonically oriented audiophiles, which is fine for them. As usual, reviews must be read with the psychology and preferences of the author in mind. They can be useful with these things in mind. Also, I never heard the Theta Prometheus, but Bill Parish said it was much warmer than the MMK. The Theta Dreadnaught has the same technology as the Prometheus, and WC long ago wrote about it. In my view, the best prospects for best buy accurate amps are the Rowland 535, Merrill Element 114 (yet to be released), and MMK. Guido says that Rowland has a neutral, revealing, smooth sound with good harmonic info, so for your tastes it may be the best prospect, since you didn't like the MMK. I am in the process of finding Rowland dealers so I can audition the 535, a great value at $6K.
|
WC,
Although I have not heard either ARC ref 6 or 10, from your description the fast precise character of the ref 6 means that it is more accurate. Smooth and relaxed means rolled off and euphonic even if you like it. Years ago I heard the ARC SP 6B preamp which was fast and accurate, although probably inferior to current ARC products. When I got Roger Modjeski's tubes for my Theta preamp, it lost a little sweetness but got transformed into an exciting, accurate unit with sparkle. Remember, you like sparkle. It seems like ARC makes the finest, accurate tube products that retain some typical tube sound. ARC is refined, never in your face like some sterile SS stuff. Now that you have the Neo which is on the relaxed side, you might enjoy the synergy with the ref 6. That's why you sold the Esoteric which made the overall sound too relaxed and diffuse. |
WC,
Good. Long ago, I came to value clarity above everything else, including soundstage. In the old days of using a tubey sounding Dyna ST70 modified by Van Alstine, images were big, rounded and spacious, but the Krell KSA 50 class A SS amp won me over with its clarity, although the soundstage was more focused and not as 3D. I realized that larger than life spaciousness is a euphonic artifact. When I visited various European cities and heard solo street musicians, I was struck by the immediacy and clarity, not by any soundstage. What good is a soundstage if the individual musicians are relatively fuzzy in the space? Accurate electronics will maximize the clarity while still differentiating the natural spatial locations of musicians on that stage. That stage has its proper dimensions but if the stage sounds like a football stadium or the ocean, that is not true to life the way the recording was made.
|
gammonit_2000,
That's about how the Bryston 4B SST2 sounded when I had it at home.
|
WC,
I encourage you to consider the 240 lb power house Boulder 2060 stereo amp listed on the website of The Music Room. Updated, factory refurbished for $18K. Reviews suggest neutrality and great clarity but without spiky HF harshness, etc. I recall you heard this in the past with other speakers, but remember the warmish Neo could use some tightening up with neutral electronics. You have a 45 day risk free guarantee, with the only risk being return shipping with insurance, probably several hundred bucks. The price of most things there drops about 1% for every week it is not sold.
|
Both sound wonderful, maybe in part from the superior Nordost interconnects. Perhaps the Gryphon's detail and airiness I heard are helped by the Dragon power cord, so that is an unknown variable in this shootout. If you feel that the Momentum combo is a smooth sound, then it is likely that each--the Dag preamp and amp--are smooth, since the designs are likely to be similar. Or, the Transparent power cord with its filter may be smoothing out the Dag. I hope you can do another video before the DCS leaves, using DCS straight into Dag amp vs DCS straight into Gryphon amp. Until the Odin 1 speaker cable arrives, you can quickly do this with the WW speaker cable, and of course use the same power cord for both amps to eliminate that variable. I love the clarity of the DCS, so I believe the clarity will be at the highest level with DCS + Gryphon with one Nordost interconnect (either Odin or Valhalla) with Odin 1 speaker cable, and Dragon power cord. Who knows, the Dag amp may be neck and neck with the Gryphon with the best speaker cable, Odin 1, and both using the best power cord, Dragon.
|
WC,
OK, I respect your feelings about Boulder. I think you want life and sparkle, but with enough sweetness. Ayre is a top contender for those qualities. I heard the monos with Maggies at a store years ago. The Music Room has the VX-5 Twenty stereo amp, 3 years old for less than $6K, 175W into 8, 350 into 4, probably near doubling into 2. This may not give you enough power for your desires, but for finesse and delicacy, it probably is at least as good as your Plinius. You have very little to lose with their 45 day free trial. It would give a good indication of their top monos which are a lot of money. Still, I think the best prospect for $6K new is the Rowland 535, 250W into 8, 500 into 4. Guido says it is very nearly as good as the 925, just not quite as much power. The sound is neutral, but with good harmonic info which means it is not sterile. The 535 still can give 30 amps peak. For 1 ohm, that is 900W. Excellent prospect, because you already know the 925. No doubt the MF Titan will give power and sweetness, but you will judge how detailed it is.
|
WC,
Regarding soundstage, the objective is to reproduce the soundstage as presented on the recording, whether narrow/shallow or wide/deep, according to the concepts of the musicians, the actual physical dimensions of the stage or recording studio, the processing technique of the recording engineers, etc. As such, if an accurate amp such as Rowland 535 or 925 gives the most revealing information such as tone quality, freq extension, etc, then it also gives the most accurate spatial info presented on the recording. It is NOT ideal to artificially boost the dimensions of the soundstage, even if you want to make the recording studio sound like a football field or ocean. That is just plain euphonic distortion, as I experienced it during my early days of rolled off/bloated tube amps. So if you want accurate soundstage, go for the Rowland and similar accurate amps, but yes, if you want 3D sound that wraps behind your head, look elsewhere, and go for any euphonic electronics. So I think that the ARC Ref 6 is preferable to the Ref 10 for accuracy AND truthful soundstage, according to your descriptions. It also has some tubelike qualities which you like, compared to some sterile SS pieces. And if the ref 6 gets too biting only at loud levels, that tells you that you are playing that music too loud, just as if your favorite singer sounds gorgeous LIVE at the right level, but harsh if too loud by screaming her voice and artificially amped up too much. Don't think that because the Ref 10 is more expensive, then it must be "better", and of course don't think that a ref 11 is the holy grail. I know you are starting to realize that more money doesn't necessarily buy more happiness in equipment.
Also, the soundstage is properly and mostly re-created by the speaker and its interaction with the listening room. The physical design of the Neo creates that large space. Equally important, the style of the recording as I mentioned above. But the job of the electronics is to passively transmit the truth of what is on the recording, while being powerful enough to drive the speaker effortlessly.
|
ricred1,
Agree about the supreme importance of the room. Actually, the speaker can be considered a marriage of the speaker and the room. Each is useless without the other adjusted for compatibility. Many people have large pianos in small rooms, which sound terrible because of the mismatch. What works best is a small piano in a small room, and a large piano in a large concert hall. The same applies to audio reproduction.
|
shannere,
Great question. I should have explained better. It is really an objective mathematical/physics discussion. Of course, I wasn't at the recording session. Manipulation of frequency response with EQ will also affect perception of the soundstage. A simple math/physics explanation is that the small wavelengths of HF are absorbed more by intervening air than lower freq. For example, excessive HF boosting will greatly decrease depth in the soundstage with a more forward presentation. Rolling off HF will create a more distant perspective, which can also be described as a heightened sense of depth. In WC's description of the rounded aspect of the ref 10, that is consistent with his observation of the greater depth perceived compared to the more HF oriented precise character of the ref 6. So mathematically, there is a direct correlation of tonal balance with sound staging. I am just saying that if an amp is accurate in tonal parameters to what the engineer encoded on the recording, then that amp will also be accurate in portrayal of the soundstage that is on the recording, whatever it is even if the listener weren't there.
|
