The point behind the offer, and it's an honest offer, is to simply show that people don't have as much faith in their ears as they think they do or would like others to believe.
I'm ok with that outcome. It's a data point in and of itself and that data is certainly valid. Out of a count of 52 people that I've seen directly state large delta in Ethernet cabling SQ I have 0 takers. That forms a picture that any reasonable and prudent person can form for themselves.
On the typical response of scientifically invalid. My suggested evaluation rig closely mirrors the evaluation process that people use to come to the conclusion of SQ differences. If their opinion is good in that case then it will hold water with the same people when done with my proposed setup.
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Yep. Money talks and B.S. walks.
I've made the point I wanted to make one way or the other. Enjoy spending through the nose for the placebo effect. |
their isn’t plural. It’s gender neutral possessive. His/Her infers that gender is known.
You are incorrect about almost everything here. I’m sure the mods here will come to your aid. |
This person" is singular so the correct word is his. Singular possessive. Case closed.
"Their, them, themselves, they (as singular pronouns)Many English speakers believe that using the plural pronouns they, them, themselves, and their in gender-neutral singular constructions is incorrect. For example, these people would consider the them in “call a friend and ask them to come over” to be wrong because them by definition refers to multiple people, whereas in this clause its antecedent (a friend) is singular. But there are problems with this view."
You are inferring a gender when it hasn't been provided to you. Keep on swinging and missing.
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Do that to cabling and you'll have a crank to turn on your own cash making machine.
You'd have a unique way of cryogenically treating cables.
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1. Sighted evaluation = Awesome. We can trust the results
2. Bias controlled evaluation = Broke. Every thing is suspect. Especially results that fail, for whatever reason, to trend with sighted evaluation.
I’m testing to the same standards that people ascribe to sighted evaluation. Sauce that is good on goose is equally good on gander.
It's only as valid as sighted testing. No more no less. I'm not submitting anything to JAMA.
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The offer is considered a wager and against the TOS. Normally I would just rescind the $2000 and travel expense paid by you requirement. This would put me back into compliance of the TOS but I'm not going to come out of pocket to basically perform what would be tantamount to smack down because that is how it's going to go.
Intellectual honesty seems to be limited to me and just a few other posters in this thread.
Anyways you have my email and barring an exception from the TOS we still have a thread devoid of people that actually have faith in their ears.
It's still a sold outcome for me either way.
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spoon benders and ghost whisperers
Why worry about it? None of the validation tests that I've seen spoon benders or ghost whisperers perform, using your version of 'logic', are not scientific enough with 1000 benders/whisperers to test against. Especially if the result is Negative. Memory Water is one such item that meets your criteria. All tests for Memory water have turned out to be a negative result. So I guess theory is still sound for memory water. So if you're divining, bending cutlery, chasing amorphous farts, making memory water it's all good. |
Most importantly, anyone who has actually taken a look at Randi’s
challenge..and done so with the trained eyes of a statistician or person
who designs rigorous scientific testing regimens.. that person soon
finds out that his tests do not follow any of the accepted methods and
ways.
So much so that they are not even remotely correct or
applicable to any testing standards. Randi’s test methodology fails to
meet even the minimum for correct testing. The test, if applied... is
slated to create a failure mode and find favor to Randi’s position in
the given agreement. I laugh every time I see someone say something like the above. Because Randi didn't get 1000 mystical spoon benders to test, so when he exposed Uri Geller for the charlatan that he is, it's not really valid and we hold out the possibility that people can actually bend spoons with their mind. Incredible 'logic'. Here's the thing: You aren't aural savants. You're aural spoon benders. The real reason that you will not sit for a bias controlled evaluation is that when you crash and burn, and you most certainly will, EVERYTHING you have an opinion about when it comes to the audibility of equipment will be worthless. When you've been exposed either making stuff up or hallucinating then you can't be trusted. |
all I hear is noise I'm shocked you can hear anything based on the fact you can't answer one simple question: When you pull the cable and the music still plays what happened to the SQ? |
your obvious contempt for audiophiles I have contempt for people that hear realtime differences in a standard that allows you to disconnect the Ethernet cable and yet the music could still play for 10, 20, 30 seconds.
and the whole scientific method notwithstanding
I'm all for the scientific method. You find me a scientist that thinks a rigorous study is needed to debunk spoon benders.
the real reason The Amazing Randi never (rpt never) lost a Million Dollar Challenge was because the test protocol was obviously slanted to favor Randi.
Ok, how is me flying out to you and your setup favoring me?
Let me give some examples, gentle readers. In the case of the Million Dollar Challenge for the Intelligent Chip Wellfed was expected to perform the test at some location other than his own house and on a system of Randi’s choosing.
See above. I'm totally willing to do this in your setup. I'll provide the Client/Server computer, Cisco SG200-8 switch and some additional cabling.
I.e., some unfamiliar God knows what system.
At the risk of being redundant: This would be in the claimants system.
Keep in mind Randi nor any of his crew were audiophiles.
So? An MD doesn't need to suffer the ailment to treat the patient.
There was also a dispute how many people from Randi’s crew were to have been present at the test
I wasn't planning on bringing Kate + 8
Finally Wellfed would have had to guess correctly 10 out of 10 consecutive trials. Give me break!
I was only requiring 1 round of 20 |
Well, in the UK a company selling fancy audio cables claiming their sonic superiority lost a courtcase for consumer fraud. I am quite happy that pharmaceutical companies also have to prove efficacy. In EU law there is the requirement of 'fit for purpose
Sorry, either you’re not telling the whole story or that’s the silliest thing I ever heard. Was the magistrate a hardcore pseudo skeptic?
It was Chord.... |
@jinjuku,
In your experience, do you think laptop / computer is a best source to determine sound fidelity and quality of a Ethernet cable in direct comparison with a dedicated audio server like Lumin, Aurender or Antipodes?
It certainly can be if your USB DAC is good. I've had a Cary Audio DMS-500 to evaluate. Both it and my computer based system sounded great. |
Looks like your argument is based on this video ~ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=anZeheEiff8
That would be because that's my video. I would really like to have someone answer what happens to the characteristics of the audio when the system doesn't even have a cable connected to it. The video clearly shows the track is never interrupted even though I did plenty of swaps from $27 a foot and $0.30 a foot cable. Everything was stacked, and incredibly so, in favor of the WW cable. The other tidbit is that on some other testing: No packet loss for either cable on the transfer of 4GB of data. Also the the Cisco SG 200-8 is bandwidth limiting at the 60MB/s you saw. Going from NIC to NIC, for both cables, I maxed out at 107MB second. So while I like the SG 200-8 for the L3 capabilities, it's not what I use as my backplane switch. |
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One assumes jinjuku would attempt to debunk wire directionality by claiming that data transfer is not corrupted or changed when the cables are reversed so therefore wire directionality doesn't exist. Ethernet cables aren't directional though... And before you go talking about STP cabling, don't talk about it in a vacuum, because how the shield is tied is dependent on the installation environment. You really have no clue what you are talking about. |
I once had coffee at a diner in NYC that boasted World’s Best Coffee. For a purported expert of what constitutes valid testing you sure don’t understand the difference between an entirely subjective claim (taste) with objective ones like increased sound stage, stereo separation, more defined highs etc... Now if Chord simply said "The world’s best sounding cable" they would have been fine. I feel like the Ben Shapiro of Audio. |
Whoa! Easy, big fella. I’m not talking about shielded cables If it's not about the shield on a STP Ethernet cable, then it's not going to be anything else. Ethernet is either wired TIA586A or TIA586B straight through, or 586A on one end 586B on the other end for cross over. Most horizontal run will be CCA, patch is stranded (for better strain resistance and flexibility). Save yourself the laughable argument with grain structure, crystalline structure, etc... Ethernet is bidirectional. |
Increased sound stage, etc, are subjective claims. There are no measurements for these parameters, other than the impressions from one's ears, nervous system and consciousness.
Sure there is! Bias controlled testing. Audiophile spoonbenders measure this all the time. Professional spoonbenders like Lavorgna, Plaskin, Van Es, Hall, Darko do it all the time in all manner of systems both at private residence and a noise laden, sub-optimal, trade show booth. What I'm saying is I can decrease the soundstage, the bass, the depth of field for you using your own cabling soon as I introduce 1. An additional cable and 2. Remove your sighted your bias. |
I still don't have an answer to the video I made where I removed the Ethernet cable and the audio still plays and nothing changed about the quality of it.
I would love for Geoff, clearthink, granny to post a response video.
Even decent dedicated streamers can do this. |
But as fate would have it wire is audibly better in one direction than
the other. Even shielded cable that is "directional" sonically according
to the shield terminations points is also "directional" sonically
according to the direction of the copper conductor. So, it would help to
keep track of both aspects of the cable construction. Follow?
Even if I believed there was grain orientation cofounders to SQ... Ethernet is a data cable, not an audio cable. Are you capable of answering any questions: If Ethernet cable is directional and I set a 30 second buffer that will allow me to swap the cable around with out a break in play. Will you be able to tell us when I made the swap. Will you be able to tell us the direction of the cable? |
Geoff,
Can you answer a simple question or not?
What happens to the SQ when the Ethernet cable is removed and the music still plays? |
Ethernet is digital. Digital eliminates small analog differences
completely. Unless you think that the shape of the bits (rounder 0 and
sharper 1) is being affected by directionality, shielding, resistance
and capacitance of wire. (That increasingly seems to me to be your
education level when it comes to digital)
That is just one small bit of it. You have all these different systems in play: Ethernet, PCIe (or USB BUS if using USB to Ethernet), then the RAM subsystem, then the USB subsystem, then the USB to I2S and local buffer on the DAC. You have all these clock domain boundaries with FIXED frequency clocks passing data at said FIXED clock. The clock for Ethernet doesn't match the clock on the PCIe bus which in turn doesn't match the clock on the RAM, which may or may not match the clock on the CPU, which won't match the clock on the computer USB side of things and most certainly won't match the clock on the DAC that lines up the samples in it's buffer and finally applies 44.1/96/192/384 or what have you. Clock domain boundaries are FIFO buffers. Buffers are static areas where any upstream jitter just absolutely went poof! If you stream from the likes of Tidal, Spotify, Pandora, Amazon, etc. use the PathPing command from windows. Count the hops. Each hop has totally copied the data. When it hits your router, it's copied, when it hits your switch it's copied. When it hits the input buffer on the NIC, it's copied, when it hits the output buffer on your NIC, it's copied, when it hits the buffer on the PCIe bus, it's copied, when it hits the RAM buffer it's copied, when it hit the buffer set aside from the playback application, it's copied, when it's read into the USB side of things, it's copied, then it's sent over the USB cable to the USB DAC where it's the final copy and clock is applied. The sound you are hearing was copied many times before you heard it. What you are currently listening to could have been copied 10-30 seconds prior. You can open up task manager in Windows, go to the performance tab and play back audio over the network. You will see that audio is playing and the throughput on the NIC went to Zero. |
Geoff,
Can you answer one simple question? In my video I show a track playing even though I'm disconnecting the Ethernet cable.
What, in your opinion, happens when the cable is pulled but the sound is still playing?
It's a simple question. |
Lalitk,
Can you answer one simple question, when the cable is removed and the audio still plays what happens to the SQ?
Why is this such a difficult question for subjective folks to answer?
That is indeed the crux of my argument:
If I came out and you couldn’t see your setup, only hear it, assuming you are using quality components with adequate buffer (and a lot of them do) would you be able to tell when the cable was removed but the music still played?
Stop the tap dancing, realize the non real-time nature of networked audio and attempt to answer the question.
Bottom line there is a reason you aren’t and because it’s a tacit admission that your understanding about how networked audio works is fundamentally flawed.
Is there an intellectually curious or honest subjectivist here that would be willing to actually trust their ears (and I mean ears only)? |
I would be happy to answer your question if you tell me what happens to SQ once the info in buffer runs out assuming Ethernet cable remains out of the equation?
What happens to your Youtube playback when your local connection has been down long enough? What happens to your buffered audio while the cable is unplugged/plugged back in while never allowing for the playback to interrupt? At least you are admitting audio is playing out of the buffer and not the Ethernet cable. It's a start. |
What sums it up are really two things. They are simple things:
1. Subjectivists won't actually do any ears only evaluation
2. Subjectivists won't answer one simple question:
What happens to the SQ when the cable is removed but you still have 30 seconds of it playing back.
Can you answer a simple question? |
"The cable is important if you want to get data transferred. It’s not involved in the SQ"
That’s pretty much sums it up.
You betcha... |
It's also why they keep bringing up other cabling as some form of equivalent argument. |
At least I know how networked audio works...
I just wonder how music could still play with the network cable disconnected and how, just how, could the sound be the same with no cable. Hmmm. If there was only a way to store some of the music ahead of where it’s currently playing. Heck maybe, as time goes on, we could develop techniques that would store an entire track. Oooh maybe even entire Albums.
Just think of the possibilities. |
I heard an immediate difference. I was shocked. But it was evident. Clarity. sharpness in vocals. better resolution. tighter bottom. Although they might have been a bit bright. Not sure yet. I can’t figure it out. I wish I didn’t hear it. It’s doubtful I’ll go out and start listening to other Ethernet cables, but at $47 the Supra seemed to be a good investment. I won’t be returning them. Great. Then you’ll be able to do this blinded. I had the Nordost Heimdall II 1 meter cable vs 98 meters of generic CAT 5 in a few setups. No one, when blinded, could tell the difference. Again: What changes about the sound when the cable is removed but the music still plays? |
Empirical evidence is obviously what Geoff says it is. I can't wait for his rebuttal video where he, without realizing it, refers to himself in the 1st person. |
If your audio device is crap then presumably the simple act of receiving a burst of signal or transmitting a burst of signal on the ethernet port may disrupt or add noise to the analog output. (Like transformer hum 60Hz power supply noise that somehow makes it to the analog out)
I don't see, nor have seen any credible hypothesis promoted, how a $700 cable with 8 metal conductors and shield (either floated, full/partial tied) would mitigate this noise vs another like built, 8 metal conductors and shield (either floated, full/partial tied) where they both pass what the standards body deems as in spec. Archimago's glimpse into this bears this out. Even with a 50' cable. I went extreme and used 315 feet. This whole 'directionality', 'crystal grain boundaries', for Ethernet is BS. 99.99999% of the connections the global Internet runs on (where the connections are not fiber) are going to be ETP copper, CCA, or something else. What it isn't going be is 'directional copper'. |
Here is the basic sentiment that is conveyed where subjectivists make claims about either people or their setups (both they’ve never experienced, which is what I willing to do):
I heard from three spoon benders that they can bend spoons. Why wouldn’t you trust the spoon benders that said they can bend spoons?
If you can’t bend spoons it’s because either you or your spoons suck.
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Agreed. However if you accept that equipment is badly designed and faulty (contamination from TCP/IP communication is reaching the analog out) then a mere change of cable might influence things in an unpredictable manner. This may be true for more analog components where vendors design and roll their own analog topologies, Ethernet is a different beast where you are only getting PHY’s from a handful of companies. These companies release these PHY’s with reference layouts that you need to use because they are there for SI, power efficiency, and meeting spec. Out of 100 meter standard most pre-packaged solutions AFAIK of boutique cabling is 3, maybe 4 meters, with the majority being 1 or 2 meters as more the norm. If they are all in spec cables, they are in spec. Even green Ethernet Switches that reduce TX / RX power is for 40 meter or less runs. SI and power envelope isn’t an issue at 1-4 meters. If your connecting through structured wiring in the wall then that last 1-4 meters really isn’t going to matter much since you will only ever spec out to what is the weakest link regardless of how much is spent on a patch cable. I think crap gear is going to perform equally bad with two same constructed, same length, spec passing Ethernet cables. I am convinced that some anecdotal reports are pure placebo (result of parting with $700) effect but many others are actual equipment issues that happen to be identified or brought to a users attention when swapping out cables.
Do not underestimate the amount of badly built equipment out there. Manufacturers read the latest DAC chip instruction manual and throw a DAC together with a gorgeous looking faceplate and there you go. Analog audio designers are often challenged when faced with advanced digital circuitry, ethernet, USB, firmware etc. - the possibilities for overlooking error and contamination sources multiply in digital. Thats fair. I’ve done enough installations with NAIM, Lumin, Oppo, TEAC, DM Holdings, now that those are the manufacturers I would recommend as having properly implemented gear. Still the logic of my offer has been such that no one is willing to take me up on it. |
What DAC or streamer, with HP out (I have AKG 701's), can I get that would be this night and day difference with two like Ethernet cables but one of them being boutique?
That way the room is out of the mix, the pre-amp is out of the mix, the amp is out of the mix.
It's just some source> streamer>head phones. |
The plural of anecdotal is not data. |
A place to start is forums where those with certain DACs claim a big difference with a reclocker or audio USB bridge. Why would I need to do that. There are three posters here that have answers for everything. |
The reason is ethernet data is transmitted asynchronously to the buffer on demand and when the buffer is lower the device will call for more data
Gosh, that's fascinating.
It's clear Geoff doesn't understand what this means and what the implications are. It's why no one has attempted to answer a rather simple question. |
No one listens to music with their cables 'unplugged'. Since you don't believe in 'cable makes a difference' there is not much to discuss or debate here. Ethernet as a protocol and cable is the only cable in all of audiophiledom that I know of that you can unplug and you will still get playback. That you don't get the significance of this and unable to answer that age old simple question: What happens to the SQ when the cable is removed and the audio keeps playing? Even If I shoot a video with A/B test and post it on YouTube, i highly doubt either you or anyone for that matter can discern 'SQ' between different cables.
Is this simple enough for you to understand?
BTW, how many comments did you receive on your YouTube video :-)
What I posted was for proof of concept Post your own rebuttal video and see how many comments you get ;-) |
The trouble with pseudo skeptics is they’re not equipped to deal with reality. It’s all about attention, you know, like the YouTube video currently under discussion.
I'm willing to deal with the reality of showing the community at large, via a YT video, on your own setup you crashing and burning. Whatever your current RJE is, I'll make one 300% longer, same construction (shield etc). Put it on Periscope in real time. Let's see how well you deal with reality. |
Everyone understands here how music is being streamed off Ethernet and played back. That’s news to me. I have a simple question: When you are playing back music and the Ethernet cable is disconnected and you still hear music. What happens to the SQ? When you are playing back music and the Ethernet cable is disconnected and it’s going to play for ~ another 30 seconds and I place a different Ethernet cable back in what happens at the point I plug it back in and what happens at the point the Application calls on the OS to prefetch? You are a computer audio luddite. |
The next to last comment on the 1st page of this discussion by Milpai is the straightforward truth. Just because you or your equipment can’t hear the difference in quality cables doesn’t mean the difference doesn’t exist for others. I’ve had systems in my home from peanuts to $100K+, And cables, including Ethernet (Cat 5, 6, 7 & 8), make a world of difference. In fact, I don’t ever remember when changing a cable didn’t either improve or degrade what I experienced in my not so humble opinion. And I know how Ethernet works. I’m telling you it’s 100% delusion regardless of listener or system when I have two same constructed, both pass spec, Ethernet cables. I’ll do this in your own system with the same class cable, equivalent construction, and 300% longer than the current esoteric patch cable you are using. We'll post the session on YT. |
Did someone forget to put out the Roach Motels last night?
I don't now about the Roach Motels, but the can of yellow paint has been clearly opened and copiously used. |
So we went from: And cables, including Ethernet (Cat 5, 6, 7 & 8), make a world of difference. to 3rd, I have two five meter 6A cables. One from Blue Jeans and one home made (with my friends). from Western Electric specialty made ethernet that we subsequently cryo-treated. The Siemens connectors, each end, cost twice as much as the full spec Blue Jeans cable. And I would say the improvement is not "obvious" but more like a 2% improvement btw thanks for the invite but my RMAF is already booked and I'll be out at another forum members house on Saturday. Sunday I fly out from Denver to SLC to visit another friend and then back home Tuesday. Let me look for when I am heading out for Phoenix. I could finish up there, then one way to Denver, then one way back home. |
Would it be presumptuous of us to expect an apology from jujitsu after his little get together? Geoff, Exactly what would I be apologizing for? To date I've at the least used everyone's handle here. WGutz, I would like to see if the 3rd weekend in October will work for you My plan would be using Rene van Es's exemplar setup when he did a deep dive into the audibility of CAT cabling. I will simplify with a Cisco Switch that takes one input and has two outputs. With the LAG configuration the switch provides a faux MAC address that maps to the ports that are outbound to your Streamer/Computer/Endpoint. This will allow the cable to be switched at the Streamer/Computer/Endpoint with out causing an issue from the perspective of the source. |
Can you give me the current topology of your networked audio? The reasons for the switch. For one I’m taking a page out of a setup where there is Router<>Switch<>Switch<> Endpoint. https://www.extremetech.com/computing/174991-increasing-the-sound-quality-of-your-music-by-switching...The Cisco is going to allow me or even one of your friends to swap out just at the endpoint device to minimize error. Let me firm up my schedule and how much time would you need playing around with this prior to evaluating blind? I can suggest two methods: If your player has enough buffer just queue up tracks and the cable can be changed/unchanged(that is same cable removed and plugged back in) out at a random interval. Or Setup a looping track or a snippet of a track with a 15 second interval track between and the possible swap would happen then. |
To be clear I'm proposing Source<>Switch<>Client
That would be like: Tidal<>Router<>Client |
While I can accommodate any number of cables (actually up to 7) with my switch (I also have 48 port switches with L3) by expanding the LAG group to additional ports I would like to not open this up to a bunch of cables unless wgutz feels that it won’t be a detriment to bias controlled evaluation.
I'm also going to bring some bulk cable and can terminate it on the spot.
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Are you using a purpose built streamer or a computer / DAC combination?
If it's a streamer what is it? |
