Since rooms and ears (especially as we get older) are inbalanced in many cases, getting left and right just right might help lock in an image - which you did not even know was off till you heard adjusted. Then there is the priciple that we often hear our expectations and it takes quite a while to get past them and to listen through them. |
What is the cost of the dual mono? I assume the Walwart would be the same. |
Yes Jult52, it would be interesting to hear your comments on the BENT versus LSA, I have owned the TVC and AVC versions, and I think Clio9 has heard a Slagle AVC, as well as an S&B -based TVC. UNfortunately, I did not have them at the same time as the LSA to a careful comparison over time. |
Hi George. What do you mean by "not backwards compatible"? |
Granny ring, just curious, what amps are we talking about? Tubes or SS? |
Grannyring, I know you amp is a hybrid, but not sure how much it works like and SS amp versus a tube amp, but there does seem to be some consistency in folks with SS amps being less enamored of the LSA than those with tube amps, and I suspect it has less to do with impedances and sensitivities, than tube versus SS sonics. Not commenting on your amp in particular since I am not familiar with its sound or operation, but more as a general comment - I think most folks that fall in love with the LSA own tube amps (no?). |
I thought "everything" was over priced when I heard the $135 Pot-in-a-Box (expensive Noble pots used on the vintage Audio Research SP-6) sold by Roger Modjeski. Given my two line stages at the time were in the $5-7k range a few years ago, it seemed like a bloody good deal! The LSA just happens to take a "simple" passive volume control to the nth degree, and as you have discovered, in the right system can be a pretty magical way of controlling volume. |
Never a truer word has been spoken:) |
The more I think about this, I'm not sure how balance control really helps with room or hearing asymmetries as the asymmetry is not constant across the frequency spectrum, that dips and crests in dBs are widely different based on the frequency response - much to nuanced for such a blunt adjustment. Dealing with screwed recording levels yes, but the rest just seems like a hornet;s nest. |
Unless it helps us deal with "matching" drift, though I'm not sure that is constant across frequency either. |
Given the necessary taper for stepped attenuators and the expense of steps, it seems like 1.5db is likely the goal then. Is the MLA shipping yet? |
Very cool. I'll be calling:) |
Less is more when it is enough. |
Nice gesture to the DIY crowd! |
I think I could only deal with dual mono controls with steps and 1db increments in the 12:00 region. I like to balance, but dual controls would drive me nutz. |
Can you get to 9? or is that simply too loud at that point? I used 12-2 (at most). |
What is low capacitance? Under 100pf? 200? |
That's good, I thought the Slagle AVC was preferable to the S&B TVC - though in both cases exteremely good, and very high value given the quality of their performance.
Anthony, is the voltage adjustable OTL preamp on the website yet? Sounds like the Decware CSP - no? Different? |
Anthony those are RCA? I use mogami Xlr with that atma-sphere. I suspect they make first rate cable without the attendant hype and $$$ |
Kevin, you have a link to where that was said? |
I don't understand it, it is certainly not a privacy issue in my view, in fact how would I contact any of you privately now other than to post by e-mail or phone number on a "response" - this is not a user friendly change. I suppose they did it to prevent folks from buying and selling though the AGON process rather than dealing with each other directly to avoid the 2% transaction fee - I assume they had a reason and that this is not simply an oversight. |
George, it is also the case that the LSA does not permit zero volume, even at the lowest setting, right? |
What is your concern? You have very high gain speakers and very high sensitivity amp and are concerned that you cannot get the volume low, in fact to high for background music? What gear do you have that gives rise to you concern? With my 89db Merlin's, and .8v RM10 amps there was no problem at all, though you can not make it absolutely silent, if you need to do that, I don't think you can use an LDR.. |
I've not looked inside the vented case (why vented?) - what should I look for to answer your question? What would the two look like to differentiate them? Is the auto former photo on Dave's site the Chapman OEM version? |
Anthony, it looks like the Slagle auto former with the Chapman board is the one being used, I take it that is a good thing. I assume the Bent TAP-x I owned with the Slagle a few years back was using exactly the same thing.
Getting silence at "O" seems to be impossible with the current LSA MKII design, where as the less good sounding MKI could. I'm sure George will be able to explain why. |
It looks like the one on top on the Intact Audio site. I wonder why Dave would choose to use one over the other. |
I don't think it has much to do with impedance. It is the input sensitivity of your amp, it gets to full power output too easily. For example, my amp I use with a passive only needs .8v to reach max. power output. My other amp that I use with an active line stage requires something like 2.8 v to reach max. output, and in most cases requires the gain provided by an active line stage. The other side of the chain would be to reduce the output voltage of your source so the overall gain structure is lowered. I have no idea how you do any of that.
No matter why you do, the LSA in any system that it is appropriate for will still produce some volume a zero setting, and just should not be that intrusive, except with high sensitivity amps and speakers combined. |
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So the 10db Rothwelll should get you to the similar volume levels of your tuner, more or less. |
If I knew about the Rothwells I might have kept the CAT pre/amp combo. Even though the pre and amp were "made for each other" I could not go much beyond 9-10:00 with digital sources, and with a stepped attenuators to boot!
If George, Al, and Anthony all vouch for the Rothwells to solve the "problem", it seems it is a safe bet, and easier than changing amps:) |
Fazoid, I think you had the Bent TVC? An very good passive preamp. I've had Placette, S&B TVC, and Bent/Slagle autoformers, and a few others. While I thought they were all exceptional values with excellent sound, I nevertheless, ultimately preferred my active tube preamps that I owned at the same time. The LS is the first to make me think I may not need them anymore, though I may keep them for the same reason I keep 3 amps, I like audio gear:). This is not a poor man's preamp, though it is affordable to many, it is actually pretty expensive for what it is in terms of parts, but what you pay for is years of perfecting the basic idea and the painstaking matching of the components to get proper balance between channels. You could, I suppose build one of these with George's instructions found on the DIY boards for less than $100, for some of you with the skills that may be an option -- I'm sure I would manage to start a fire..... |
I enjoyed reading that, well said, and certainly the issue of what gear will connect the listener to the music is as varied as there are people. As far as soundstaging is concerned, what I do notice with the LSA is that the apparent soundstage seems to change quite a bit from recording to recording, which I suspect is a good sign that the LSA is making and effort to "get out of the way" between source and amp. I also notice, as Clio9 suggested, that instruments do not seem to be oversized or stretched as often occurred with Patricia Barber's piano with some other very fine preamps I have owned. I don't know if you took 10 audiophiles and had them compare the LSA to, let's say, the ARC Ref5, how many would choose one over the other in blind listening, and both can certainly make for an excellent sounding system. But the fact that you could make the comparison tells you just how good the LSA (and other passives - I too have followed a similar path, Placette, K&K, Bent AVC, etc)are in the right system. Will prefer them to fine active preamps? Only listening will tell and I'm sure there will be those that walk out of the room with that Ref5 in tow. |
"If these things "don't add or subtract", why are they so hard to match? Can't perfection be duplicated?"
They are not that hard to match, you just need a tube amp or a high input impedance SS amp - gain is not much of an issue in most systems. But it is not a universal solution, that is why we have so many expensive linestages that are essentially plug & play into any system, what is lost is the simplicity and purity of a signal that isn't messaged to enable to work in any environment. So you can have a preamp that will work in any system, but compromised by the circuit complexity required for that, or choose a simpler device that will not work in all systems, but because of that simplicity provides a cleaner connection to the recording if not challenged by impedance mismatches. A little more work to get it right, but well worth it if you want to take this approach. I'm sure George would make a universal device that could work in any system if he could, but it just doesn't exist. This is a minimalist approach that can lead to great sound, but it can't work without some thought given to the source, cables, amps, and speakers. |
Knghfli - no, I kept the Atma-sphere preamp, ideal match with their amps. The only reason I mention those other linestages is because there is something to be said for the context of what I am use to. Being enthusiastic for the LSA just would not be the same if I came to it from a $300 NAD preamp, of course I would be enthusiastic. But the point is the LSA is not just good for the money, but good to someone who has owned some very fine tube line stages; that does not mean that someone else will come to the same conclusion that I have regarding the LSA, and I'm sure that others might prefer the CAT, Joule, etc. and they great line stages indeed and I could easily live with any of them, but I still like trying different gear. I'm just trying to make the point that it is with line stages of that quality that the LSA should be compared with (and the Bent TAP AVC, K&K S&B TVC, Goldpoint, and the Placette which I have also owned), at least to audition it and see if it floats your boat. |
Terry, what is interesting is the Placette Active that we both used obviously is about as good as it gets on the buffering side - essentially capable of being driven by any source and driving any amp an IC - I too found the Placette and BENT (I used the AVC version) sounded fantastic. Then you discovered the German linestage I can't remember and now the Concert Fidelity after having auditoned many of the finest linesstage in the world. What I always wondered was of our slightly differetn conclusions regarding our preference is due to the fact that I have always used tube amps and you have been using SS (Pass & Threshold?). I can't prove it, but I think you like what tubes do to the signal and it is simply not there for you with a passive - fine as it might sound.
As to your earlier comment about not following the DIY forums, I do think you view of George and where he is coming from would be different if you followed that thread over the past 5 years - I think you would have a better sense of him and I think Clio9 (Anthony)alluded to a possible misperception. I suspect we would all enjoy a fine brew after some heated discussion.... |
A warning from George on a DIY forum:
Got 5 x fakes from these guys in Hong Kong " buyincoins_au " the batteries were ok but all the chargers blew up and fried on 240v or 110v after 15mins of charging time LETHAL!!!
12V DC Rechargeable Li-ion Battery for CCTV Cam 1800mAh (eBay item 190459066434 end time 19-Jan-11 17:50:02 AEDST) : Electronics
The weight to send all back cost more than the purchase, thankfully I did a Paypal claim in time and they refunded me.
Cheers George |
At the DIY Audio LSA forum http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analog-line-level/80194-lightspeed-attenuator-new-passive-preamp-391.html
the EVA is mentioned. Here are some comments from George. I've neve heard the EVA so can't comment one way or another. It would be nice to have multiple inputs and remote, but then it might not sound the same....
"And there's where your HF noise is comming from, a dirty switch mode power supply.
And from a high res photo of the guts I was sent by an anonymous sender, they don't use Silonex NSL32SR2S's, it's a far cheaper one so they can max out on profits, and to boot they have input and output mini relays in it, this is the exact reason for the Lightspeed Attenuator, "it's to get rid of all contacts between the source and poweramp" not add more contacts, no wonder it does not sound as good.
But it does look cute, with remote and digital readout, this will attract the naive customers.
Cheers George"
__________________ |
Given the utterly minimalist nature of the LSA in terms on control functions, etc. you would think they would not fear the rath of their advertiser - past, present, and future to have a $470 Class component that is what is, but not a full featured preamp that "justifies" the much higher prices of other Class components. But, alas..... |
"A respected designer of $15K active preamps recently opined to me that approaching SOTA, the quality of the volume control accounts for 85% of the performance of an active preamp."
Very telling.
Does "gain" have anything to do with the claim some make that passive are not as dynamic? or, if true to the experience in some systems, is that attributable to something other than gain? |
What puzzles me, is what it is that causes very seasoned experienced listeners to find active line stages give them something, that I don't quite feel comfortable saying is simply pleasant distortion, though that might be what it is, that leads them to prefer an active line stage no matter how expensive, when it seems so clear that a straight connection between source and amp has to be about as pure and clean as the chain can be, assuming no problems with impedance, gain, or "controlling" the interconnects. I don't know what to make of it, other than they have problems with one of those 3 elements, or they simply like what an added coloration does for them - but I don't question their preference, it is what it is. |
"...fact is, many roads lead to this musical end!"
Very true - there will always be a place and purpose for well designed active line stages, and I have no doubt that there will be systems in which they sound much better than any passive might, for a variety of reasons.
Having found the LSA through the DIY thread, the one thing that never seemed to be the case was that George was primarily interested in making much money on this, or really making a business of it. Sounded to me like if he could pull it off, he would rather license his patent to other folks who might too think it is a good idea, collect some royalties, and spend some time surfing. And he seems to be a true believer in his approach - rightly or wrongly - which as you suggest, doesn't mean it is the only approach to musical satisfaction. |
In the Aleph L manual, NP goes on to say,
"If you need gain, above the 3 o’clock position the volume control provides 2 dB of gain per step, for a maximum of 10 dB. In this region you will be listening to the active circuitry of the Aleph L.
As an interesting experiment, you may want to try listening to the difference between the straight-through position and the next higher one, seeing how well you can discern the character of the active gain system."
The tenor of his comments seem to speak of the effects o gain stage as producing flavors, granting that even straight through might have a signature too. It always brings me back to Ken Stevens design goals for his (CAT) preamps, he said he wants the "flavor" (his word) to be like water - in his mind, no flavor.
As for gain, I an tell no difference between my 2v and 4v settings on my EMM player, other than I turn back the volume control a bit.
So we are left with. Passives are....
1. Always better than actives
2. Never better than actives
3. Sometimes better than actives
No lover of passives in general or the LSA would argue 1. - that would be foolish and clearly not the case.
It seems hard to argue 2, since some folks with a long history of fine active line stages of considerable merit hear things differently and prefer the passive, their judgment not swayed by a lack of resources or inability to have tried the options.
It does seem 3 is the most likely case and it it raises the question -- if so, when? Under what circumstances. I think this thread has provided enough guidance as to when a passive, and possibly the LSA best of all, will provide a quality of sound comparable to the very best available - for a fraction of the cost - as long as it is not made in Switzerland or ensconced in a 2" inch aluminum case. |
George, in the Warpspeed DIY thread, the poster identified some area we he thought the LSA could be improved:
What I found interesting at the start of the Warpspeed thread was the identification of a few "problems" with the LSA and attempt to improve upon the LSA:
1. the inability to adjust to complete silence
2. on low/high volume level settings, power levels on the LEDs endanger/shorten/toast the life out of the optocouplers
3. the need to improve the power delivery to the optocouplers
4. the need to improve on quality of the volume adjustment pot
5. the Lightspeed, simple as it is, still has a number of variables/design factors that affect performance
What is your view on these issues. On 5, we wonder if perfomance can be improved or you feel that after 30 years of sorting this thing out we are pretty much at the performance limit - obviously some ergonomic issues exists, but might not be addressable without compromising ulitmate performance. |
But he repeats the myth regarding dynamics, which seem very dependent on system matching across the board, then again, what do you write about when you have found the "best preamp ever"? :) |
Clio might be out and about, but on the famous DIY thread, George said:
"Hi guys, saw this thread when I Googled my Lightspeed Attenuator. Just to clear up the impedance matching issue.
For a good match in a system the Lightspeed Attenuator should see:
1 A CD player or Dac that has an output impedance of less than <1kohm (1000ohms)
2 The poweramp solid state or tube should have an input impedance of more than >47kohms (47K)
When these parameters are met you will have the deepest cleanest bass, most dynamic transients, most transparent sound stage and cleanest sweetest highs, you have heard."
Then there is the issue of theory and listening, Clio9, as he mentions earlier in this thread, for example has had good results with amps than in theory had too low an impedance for and ideal match, but it worked in the listening. |
I sold the LSA and just got the Emia a few days ago 9 can't imagine many have been sold yet) (currrently $1,250) because I felt the need for balance controls (room, ears, recordings). After sometime assessing the Emia, I will also be getting the LSA with dual volume controls to compare A/B as I did not have both at the same time - though without "steps" might be a PIA making adjustments. To some extent, Clio9 has already made the comparison between Emia and LSA as he owns a passive based on the Slagle Slagelformer AVC, which is essentially identical to the Emia, though Emia makes "artful" cases. Clio9 seems to love both with a slight preference to the LSA, which might very well be system dependent (he wrote a "review" comparing them on Agon).
Obviously the AVC is more"impedance flexible" than the LSA, but the LSA purer, and considerably cheaper. Whatever the case, from the time I have had with the Emia, and Clio9 with the LSA, they are both wonderful passives, and if passives can work for you, both worth considering, the LSA being the obvious bargain financially, and in the right system, perhaps sonically too, as there is simply less there interfering with the signal than with an auto former, but you signal may need "conditioning" to work optimally depending on your system.
I think Clio9 has heard more passives than any person in the western hemisphere, and LSA seems to be his preferred option as this time, but there are other options that might be better suited to certain system requirments. In my system the LSA was unimpeachable sonically - at least for my taste.
If you need absolute attenuation, the LSA may not work, how sensitive are your speakers, what is the voltage of your source[s] and sensitivity of you amp? George or Clio9 might be able to give you and idea of how much of an issue it might be for you - in my case it was a non-factor. |
